Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:24 AM - Re: KIS accidents?? ()
2. 05:42 AM - Re: Re: KIS accidents?? ()
3. 06:48 AM - Re: Fuel damage (Richard Trickel)
4. 07:41 AM - Re: Re: Fuel damage ()
5. 10:26 AM - Re: Re: Fuel damage (Larry David)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: KIS accidents?? |
4/26/2011
Hello Larry, You wrote: "..... Gasohol had eaten into the webbing of the
main spar and weakened it so that it snapped on the landing."
The above statement is the first time that I had heard of this aspect of
your accident. I am puzzled by this conclusion because:
A) Your airplane was so new that I have difficulty believing that the
ethanol alcohol (10 percent?) in the gasoline would have had enough time
to significantly weaken the spar.
B) I did not believe that cured epoxy would be significantly affected by
ethanol alcohol, especially in such a short time as your airplane
existed.
C) How did you conclude that the spar had indeed been weakened by the
ethanol alcohol.
Can you please educate me? Thanks,
OC
From: Larry David
To: kis-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2011 1:10 AM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: KIS accidents??
My TR1 with a Subaru engine went into limp home mode on my second test
flight and I made an off field landing in a celery field. Since the
engine was still turning at about 1100 rpm, it tore the nose off as it
ground to a halt in the field. Plane protected me and kept me alive,
but I never rebuilt it. The left turn in the nose was part of the
decision but more importantly Gasohol had eaten into the webbing of the
main spar and weakened it so that it snapped on the landing. Strangely,
the rear spar was still in tack. So you can add one to the not rebuilt
column of damaged TR1s. Larry
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: KIS accidents?? |
4/26/2011
Hello Alfred, You wrote: "A quick scan of the UK register shows one TR-1
destroyed in 1997 and one TR4 Cruiser destroyed in 2009. Apparently no
fatalities or serious injuries (but I could not find the AAIB report of the
1997 accident)"
The October 1996 issue of the KIS and Tell newsletter reported on the loss
of a KIS TR-1 and the death of the two occupants. This could be the 1997
accident that you referred to above.
One of the occupants was Adrian Caple, who was an England representative of
Tri-R Technologies, and was presumably demostrating the airplane to a
prospective builder.
Here is what the newsletter said: "All investigations reported to date have
indicated no evidence of aircraft structure or flight characteristics
contributing to the accident. All damage noted was consistent with a high
speed impact with the water."
OC
====================================================
From: "BlueSkyFlier" <bleuskyfly@teledynamix.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2011 4:27 PM
Subject: KIS-List: Re: KIS accidents??
> <bleuskyfly@teledynamix.com>
>
> I know of three incidents here in the UK where TR-1 doors opened in
> flight, the last one in latter half of last year. Two doors are still
> missing in action and nobody the worse for it, the third one came open
> just after takeoff and was damaged but passenger managed to pull it down
> again although his headset was flapping out the side. Other then a new
> hole in the pilot's seat cover, no problems :o) These planes are all still
> flying today.
>
> A quick scan of the UK register shows one TR-1 destroyed in 1997 and one
> TR4 Cruiser destroyed in 2009. Apparently no fatalities or serious
> injuries (but I could not find the AAIB report of the 1997 accident)
>
> Other than that, three TR-1s without wings here in UK, two of these are
> tail draggers and the third is/was mine.
>
> Seven TR-1s still on the register her in the UK (incl the three awaiting
> new wings :o) John Petrie probably knows the record for South Africa. A
> good tally of kits were bought by the guys there.
>
> Regards,
> Alfred
Message 3
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O.C.
By the time Larry bought the plane from the original builder It had been si
tting for several years with auto gas in the tanks which contained alcohol
in Arizona.=C2- I saw the damage to the inside of the tanks and It was ex
tensive resin lifting but rember that the spar appeared intact.=C2-Also t
he fuel only attact the bonding resin and tank seal resin and not the prepr
eg itself.=C2-=C2-Vance and I worked out a repair which included a lot
of sanding and retaping the ribs. =C2-I Also did not know the spar had br
oken so maybe larry could give more info
Rich
--- On Tue, 4/26/11, bakerocb@cox.net <bakerocb@cox.net> wrote:
From: bakerocb@cox.net <bakerocb@cox.net>
Subject: Re: KIS-List: KIS accidents??
=EF=BB
4/26/2011
=C2-
Hello Larry, You wrote: "..... Gasohol had eaten into the webbing of the ma
in spar and weakened it so that it snapped on the landing."
=C2-
The above statement is=C2-the first time that I had heard of this aspect
of your accident. I am puzzled by this conclusion because:
=C2-
A) Your airplane was so new that I have difficulty believing that the ethan
ol alcohol (10 percent?) in the gasoline would have had enough time to sign
ificantly weaken the spar.
=C2-
B) I did not believe that cured epoxy would be significantly affected by et
hanol alcohol, especially in such a short time as your airplane existed.
=C2-
C) How did you conclude that the spar had indeed been weakened by the ethan
ol alcohol.
=C2-
Can you please educate me? Thanks,
=C2-
OC
=C2-
From: Larry David
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2011 1:10 AM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: KIS accidents??
My TR1 with a Subaru engine went into limp home mode on my second test flig
ht and I made an off field landing in a celery field.=C2- Since the engin
e was still turning at about 1100 rpm, it tore the nose off as it ground to
a halt in the field.=C2- Plane protected me and kept me alive, but I nev
er rebuilt it.=C2- The left turn in the nose was part of the decision but
more importantly Gasohol had eaten into the webbing of the main spar and w
eakened it so that it snapped on the landing.=C2- Strangely, the rear spa
r was still in tack.=C2- So you can add one to the not rebuilt column of
damaged TR1s.=C2- Larry
Message 4
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4/26/2011
Hello Rich, Thanks for the clarification. I was unaware of the airplane's
history.
You Wrote: "Also the fuel only attact the bonding resin and tank seal resin
and not the prepreg itself."
I had naively assumed when it came to alcohol resistance that all epoxies
were pretty much the same. Now I gather that what you are saying is that the
epoxy used to impregnate the prepreg fabric and the laminating epoxy used by
the builder for bonding the wing together had significant differences when
it came to alcohol resistance.
Maybe we could all use some education when it comes to selecting our
laminating epoxy. Thanks.
OC
==============================================
From: Richard Trickel
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 9:45 AM
Subject: KIS-List: Re: Fuel damage
O.C.
By the time Larry bought the plane from the original builder It had been
sitting for several years with auto gas in the tanks which contained alcohol
in Arizona. I saw the damage to the inside of the tanks and It was
extensive resin lifting but rember that the spar appeared intact. Also the
fuel only attact the bonding resin and tank seal resin and not the prepreg
itself. Vance and I worked out a repair which included a lot of sanding and
retaping the ribs. I Also did not know the spar had broken so maybe larry
could give more info
Rich
=======================================================
From: bakerocb@cox.net <bakerocb@cox.net>
Subject: Re: KIS-List: KIS accidents??
4/26/2011
Hello Larry, You wrote: "..... Gasohol had eaten into the webbing of the
main spar and weakened it so that it snapped on the landing."
The above statement is the first time that I had heard of this aspect of
your accident. I am puzzled by this conclusion because:
A) Your airplane was so new that I have difficulty believing that the
ethanol alcohol (10 percent?) in the gasoline would have had enough time to
significantly weaken the spar.
B) I did not believe that cured epoxy would be significantly affected by
ethanol alcohol, especially in such a short time as your airplane existed.
C) How did you conclude that the spar had indeed been weakened by the
ethanol alcohol.
Can you please educate me? Thanks,
OC
Message 5
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Hi OC, Rich, et. al.
Here is a copy of the gasohol article I wrote in 2008 for Contact
Magazine. I can't find the issue so am including my unedited draft.
Hope this helps shed some light on the alcohol issue. Back when I was
working on the leaks, Vance Jaqua did a little study and determined that
the ration of alcohol to gasoline in gasohol was the perfect ratio to
cause the most damage to fiberglass bonds. In my case, he sure was
right. :-) Larry
On 4/26/2011 7:34 AM, bakerocb@cox.net wrote:
> 4/26/2011
>
> Hello Rich, Thanks for the clarification. I was unaware of the
> airplane's history.
>
> You Wrote: "Also the fuel only attact the bonding resin and tank seal
> resin and not the prepreg itself."
>
> I had naively assumed when it came to alcohol resistance that all
> epoxies were pretty much the same. Now I gather that what you are
> saying is that the epoxy used to impregnate the prepreg fabric and the
> laminating epoxy used by the builder for bonding the wing together had
> significant differences when it came to alcohol resistance.
>
> Maybe we could all use some education when it comes to selecting our
> laminating epoxy. Thanks.
>
> OC
>
> ==============================================
>
> From: Richard Trickel
> To: kis-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 9:45 AM
> Subject: KIS-List: Re: Fuel damage
>
>
> O.C.
> By the time Larry bought the plane from the original builder It had
> been sitting for several years with auto gas in the tanks which
> contained alcohol in Arizona. I saw the damage to the inside of the
> tanks and It was extensive resin lifting but rember that the spar
> appeared intact. Also the fuel only attact the bonding resin and tank
> seal resin and not the prepreg itself. Vance and I worked out a
> repair which included a lot of sanding and retaping the ribs. I Also
> did not know the spar had broken so maybe larry could give more info
> Rich
>
> =======================================================
>
> From: bakerocb@cox.net <bakerocb@cox.net>
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: KIS accidents??
> To: "David, Larry" <lgdavid@roadrunner.com>, kis-list@matronics.com
> Date: Tuesday, April 26, 2011, 12:22 PM
>
> 4/26/2011
>
> Hello Larry, You wrote: "..... Gasohol had eaten into the webbing of
> the main spar and weakened it so that it snapped on the landing."
>
> The above statement is the first time that I had heard of this aspect
> of your accident. I am puzzled by this conclusion because:
>
> A) Your airplane was so new that I have difficulty believing that the
> ethanol alcohol (10 percent?) in the gasoline would have had enough
> time to significantly weaken the spar.
>
> B) I did not believe that cured epoxy would be significantly affected
> by ethanol alcohol, especially in such a short time as your airplane
> existed.
>
> C) How did you conclude that the spar had indeed been weakened by the
> ethanol alcohol.
>
> Can you please educate me? Thanks,
>
> OC
>
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