---------------------------------------------------------- KIS-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 04/26/11: 5 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:24 AM - Re: KIS accidents?? () 2. 05:42 AM - Re: Re: KIS accidents?? () 3. 06:48 AM - Re: Fuel damage (Richard Trickel) 4. 07:41 AM - Re: Re: Fuel damage () 5. 10:26 AM - Re: Re: Fuel damage (Larry David) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:24:50 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: KIS-List: KIS accidents?? 4/26/2011 Hello Larry, You wrote: "..... Gasohol had eaten into the webbing of the main spar and weakened it so that it snapped on the landing." The above statement is the first time that I had heard of this aspect of your accident. I am puzzled by this conclusion because: A) Your airplane was so new that I have difficulty believing that the ethanol alcohol (10 percent?) in the gasoline would have had enough time to significantly weaken the spar. B) I did not believe that cured epoxy would be significantly affected by ethanol alcohol, especially in such a short time as your airplane existed. C) How did you conclude that the spar had indeed been weakened by the ethanol alcohol. Can you please educate me? Thanks, OC From: Larry David To: kis-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2011 1:10 AM Subject: Re: KIS-List: KIS accidents?? My TR1 with a Subaru engine went into limp home mode on my second test flight and I made an off field landing in a celery field. Since the engine was still turning at about 1100 rpm, it tore the nose off as it ground to a halt in the field. Plane protected me and kept me alive, but I never rebuilt it. The left turn in the nose was part of the decision but more importantly Gasohol had eaten into the webbing of the main spar and weakened it so that it snapped on the landing. Strangely, the rear spar was still in tack. So you can add one to the not rebuilt column of damaged TR1s. Larry ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:42:10 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: KIS accidents?? 4/26/2011 Hello Alfred, You wrote: "A quick scan of the UK register shows one TR-1 destroyed in 1997 and one TR4 Cruiser destroyed in 2009. Apparently no fatalities or serious injuries (but I could not find the AAIB report of the 1997 accident)" The October 1996 issue of the KIS and Tell newsletter reported on the loss of a KIS TR-1 and the death of the two occupants. This could be the 1997 accident that you referred to above. One of the occupants was Adrian Caple, who was an England representative of Tri-R Technologies, and was presumably demostrating the airplane to a prospective builder. Here is what the newsletter said: "All investigations reported to date have indicated no evidence of aircraft structure or flight characteristics contributing to the accident. All damage noted was consistent with a high speed impact with the water." OC ==================================================== From: "BlueSkyFlier" Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2011 4:27 PM Subject: KIS-List: Re: KIS accidents?? > > > I know of three incidents here in the UK where TR-1 doors opened in > flight, the last one in latter half of last year. Two doors are still > missing in action and nobody the worse for it, the third one came open > just after takeoff and was damaged but passenger managed to pull it down > again although his headset was flapping out the side. Other then a new > hole in the pilot's seat cover, no problems :o) These planes are all still > flying today. > > A quick scan of the UK register shows one TR-1 destroyed in 1997 and one > TR4 Cruiser destroyed in 2009. Apparently no fatalities or serious > injuries (but I could not find the AAIB report of the 1997 accident) > > Other than that, three TR-1s without wings here in UK, two of these are > tail draggers and the third is/was mine. > > Seven TR-1s still on the register her in the UK (incl the three awaiting > new wings :o) John Petrie probably knows the record for South Africa. A > good tally of kits were bought by the guys there. > > Regards, > Alfred ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:48:35 AM PST US From: Richard Trickel Subject: KIS-List: Re: Fuel damage O.C. By the time Larry bought the plane from the original builder It had been si tting for several years with auto gas in the tanks which contained alcohol in Arizona.=C2- I saw the damage to the inside of the tanks and It was ex tensive resin lifting but rember that the spar appeared intact.=C2-Also t he fuel only attact the bonding resin and tank seal resin and not the prepr eg itself.=C2-=C2-Vance and I worked out a repair which included a lot of sanding and retaping the ribs. =C2-I Also did not know the spar had br oken so maybe larry could give more info Rich --- On Tue, 4/26/11, bakerocb@cox.net wrote: From: bakerocb@cox.net Subject: Re: KIS-List: KIS accidents?? =EF=BB 4/26/2011 =C2- Hello Larry, You wrote: "..... Gasohol had eaten into the webbing of the ma in spar and weakened it so that it snapped on the landing." =C2- The above statement is=C2-the first time that I had heard of this aspect of your accident. I am puzzled by this conclusion because: =C2- A) Your airplane was so new that I have difficulty believing that the ethan ol alcohol (10 percent?) in the gasoline would have had enough time to sign ificantly weaken the spar. =C2- B) I did not believe that cured epoxy would be significantly affected by et hanol alcohol, especially in such a short time as your airplane existed. =C2- C) How did you conclude that the spar had indeed been weakened by the ethan ol alcohol. =C2- Can you please educate me? Thanks, =C2- OC =C2- From: Larry David Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2011 1:10 AM Subject: Re: KIS-List: KIS accidents?? My TR1 with a Subaru engine went into limp home mode on my second test flig ht and I made an off field landing in a celery field.=C2- Since the engin e was still turning at about 1100 rpm, it tore the nose off as it ground to a halt in the field.=C2- Plane protected me and kept me alive, but I nev er rebuilt it.=C2- The left turn in the nose was part of the decision but more importantly Gasohol had eaten into the webbing of the main spar and w eakened it so that it snapped on the landing.=C2- Strangely, the rear spa r was still in tack.=C2- So you can add one to the not rebuilt column of damaged TR1s.=C2- Larry ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:41:39 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: Fuel damage 4/26/2011 Hello Rich, Thanks for the clarification. I was unaware of the airplane's history. You Wrote: "Also the fuel only attact the bonding resin and tank seal resin and not the prepreg itself." I had naively assumed when it came to alcohol resistance that all epoxies were pretty much the same. Now I gather that what you are saying is that the epoxy used to impregnate the prepreg fabric and the laminating epoxy used by the builder for bonding the wing together had significant differences when it came to alcohol resistance. Maybe we could all use some education when it comes to selecting our laminating epoxy. Thanks. OC ============================================== From: Richard Trickel Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 9:45 AM Subject: KIS-List: Re: Fuel damage O.C. By the time Larry bought the plane from the original builder It had been sitting for several years with auto gas in the tanks which contained alcohol in Arizona. I saw the damage to the inside of the tanks and It was extensive resin lifting but rember that the spar appeared intact. Also the fuel only attact the bonding resin and tank seal resin and not the prepreg itself. Vance and I worked out a repair which included a lot of sanding and retaping the ribs. I Also did not know the spar had broken so maybe larry could give more info Rich ======================================================= From: bakerocb@cox.net Subject: Re: KIS-List: KIS accidents?? 4/26/2011 Hello Larry, You wrote: "..... Gasohol had eaten into the webbing of the main spar and weakened it so that it snapped on the landing." The above statement is the first time that I had heard of this aspect of your accident. I am puzzled by this conclusion because: A) Your airplane was so new that I have difficulty believing that the ethanol alcohol (10 percent?) in the gasoline would have had enough time to significantly weaken the spar. B) I did not believe that cured epoxy would be significantly affected by ethanol alcohol, especially in such a short time as your airplane existed. C) How did you conclude that the spar had indeed been weakened by the ethanol alcohol. Can you please educate me? Thanks, OC ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:26:26 AM PST US From: Larry David Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: Fuel damage Hi OC, Rich, et. al. Here is a copy of the gasohol article I wrote in 2008 for Contact Magazine. I can't find the issue so am including my unedited draft. Hope this helps shed some light on the alcohol issue. Back when I was working on the leaks, Vance Jaqua did a little study and determined that the ration of alcohol to gasoline in gasohol was the perfect ratio to cause the most damage to fiberglass bonds. In my case, he sure was right. :-) Larry On 4/26/2011 7:34 AM, bakerocb@cox.net wrote: > 4/26/2011 > > Hello Rich, Thanks for the clarification. I was unaware of the > airplane's history. > > You Wrote: "Also the fuel only attact the bonding resin and tank seal > resin and not the prepreg itself." > > I had naively assumed when it came to alcohol resistance that all > epoxies were pretty much the same. Now I gather that what you are > saying is that the epoxy used to impregnate the prepreg fabric and the > laminating epoxy used by the builder for bonding the wing together had > significant differences when it came to alcohol resistance. > > Maybe we could all use some education when it comes to selecting our > laminating epoxy. Thanks. > > OC > > ============================================== > > From: Richard Trickel > To: kis-list@matronics.com > Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 9:45 AM > Subject: KIS-List: Re: Fuel damage > > > O.C. > By the time Larry bought the plane from the original builder It had > been sitting for several years with auto gas in the tanks which > contained alcohol in Arizona. I saw the damage to the inside of the > tanks and It was extensive resin lifting but rember that the spar > appeared intact. Also the fuel only attact the bonding resin and tank > seal resin and not the prepreg itself. Vance and I worked out a > repair which included a lot of sanding and retaping the ribs. I Also > did not know the spar had broken so maybe larry could give more info > Rich > > ======================================================= > > From: bakerocb@cox.net > Subject: Re: KIS-List: KIS accidents?? > To: "David, Larry" , kis-list@matronics.com > Date: Tuesday, April 26, 2011, 12:22 PM > > 4/26/2011 > > Hello Larry, You wrote: "..... Gasohol had eaten into the webbing of > the main spar and weakened it so that it snapped on the landing." > > The above statement is the first time that I had heard of this aspect > of your accident. I am puzzled by this conclusion because: > > A) Your airplane was so new that I have difficulty believing that the > ethanol alcohol (10 percent?) in the gasoline would have had enough > time to significantly weaken the spar. > > B) I did not believe that cured epoxy would be significantly affected > by ethanol alcohol, especially in such a short time as your airplane > existed. > > C) How did you conclude that the spar had indeed been weakened by the > ethanol alcohol. > > Can you please educate me? Thanks, > > OC > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kis-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/KIS-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kis-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kis-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.