---------------------------------------------------------- KIS-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 07/31/11: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:07 AM - Re: Tail Mod??? (Bill Schertz) 2. 07:37 AM - Re: Tail Mod??? (jerzy krasinski) 3. 11:51 AM - Re: Tail Mod??? (Scott Stearns) 4. 12:08 PM - Re: 2011 Caribbean Holiday Trip (Scott Stearns) 5. 01:18 PM - Re: Tail Mod??? (Flyinisfun@aol.com) 6. 03:16 PM - Hoz stab venting (Scott Stearns) 7. 03:40 PM - Re: Hoz stab venting (Robert Reed) 8. 03:45 PM - Re: 2011 Caribbean Holiday Trip (Galin Hernandez) 9. 04:01 PM - Elevator extension on the TR-1 (F. Tim Yoder) 10. 06:38 PM - Re: KIS-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 07/30/11 (Peter Duran) 11. 06:38 PM - Re: KIS-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 07/30/11 (Peter Duran) 12. 09:23 PM - Re: Tail Mod??? (Bill Schertz) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:07:15 AM PST US From: "Bill Schertz" Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? Yes, I added about 1.5 inches just as you described. I trim for 70 KIAS for the pattern okay. Am on travel now, will lookup pictures when I get home. Bill Schertz KIS Cruiser #4045 N343BS Phase one testing Completed From: Galin Hernandez Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 4:11 PM Subject: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? All; I find that even with the VG's, I run out of up trim as I am approaching to land. If I want to approach at an IAS of less than 90Kts I have to have full up trim and hold some back pressure on the stick. I want to be able to trim hands off for at least 75KIAS and then add back pressure for the flare. So I am thinking about making a modification to the tail and am wondering if any of you have done something similar. I am thinking of adding about 1 - 1 1/2" to the rear of the tail to include the trim tab. Has anybody done or looked into doing this to the standard tail? If so, how did you do it and what were the results? I added a "drawing" of what I am contemplating. The gray parts are what I am thinking of adding. No funny remarks about the "drawing" since I am not a Picasso. :o) THANKS! Galin ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:37:16 AM PST US From: jerzy krasinski Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? I have VGs added recently, they help too, but I feel that an extra inch is needed, making total of 2.5" extension. My trimmer is roughly twice the size of the original trimmer. With all of these I can trim ok for approach for landing, however the nose still drops down at relatively high speed. Jerzy ________________________________ From: Galin Hernandez Sent: Sat, July 30, 2011 9:46:01 PM Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? THANKS for the quick reply. I did a complete W&B back when I first started to tackle this issue. The airplane W&B is very well within the envelope during all phases of flight. It is actually a tiny bit aft so I really don't want to move it any further aft than it already is. That is why I first started with the VG's and they made a big difference. But it still needs a bit more nose up authority at slow speeds. Jerzy, do you have VG's on your elevator or just the additional 1.5"? Also, did you extend the entire elevator to include the trim tab? Galin On Saturday, July 30, 2011, jerzy krasinski wrote: > I have extended the elevator by approximately 1.5". I have heard many comments >that this might be a bad idea making the plane too sensitive to the elevator, >but nothing like this has happened, the plane is very docile, but the forces for >the elerons and the elevator are now comparable. > Now, I have much more effective elevator allowing me to hold the nose up longer >on landing. In fact I am considering adding another inch to the elevator. > > Checking the Weight and Balance is a good idea no matter if you are going to >extend the elevator or not. > > Jerzy > > ________________________________ > From: "tmclam@comcast.net" > To: kis-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sat, July 30, 2011 6:34:26 PM > Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > > Galin/Before you get into any surgery, accurately recheck your Weight and >Balance.If she is nose heavy some Lead aft may be a simpler solution. > > &nbs >s p; Ted > > ________________________________ > > From: "Galin Hernandez" > To: kis-list@matronics.com > Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 5:11:43 PM > Subject: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > > All; > > I find that even with the VG's, I run out of up trim as I am approaching to >land. If I want to approach at an IAS of less than 90Kts I have to have full up >trim and hold some back pressure on the stick. I want to be able to trim hands >off for at least 75KIAS and then add back pressure for the flare. So I am >thinking about making a modification to the tail and am wondering if any of you >have done something similar. > > I am thinking of adding about 1 - 1 1/2" to the rear of the tail to include the >trim tab. Has anybody done or looked into doing this to the standard tail? If >so, how did you do it and what were the results? I added a "drawing" of what I >am contemplating. The gray parts are what I am thinking of adding. No funny >remarks about the "drawing" since I am not a Picasso. :o) > > THANKS! > > Galin > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:51:08 AM PST US From: Scott Stearns Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? I built a new carbon fiber elevator in the factory mold and made it 2 inches longer in chord and i made the trim tab about half the span of the right elevator. I also increased the size of the counter balance. I have not run out of trim in any condition and the aileron and elevator forces are about equal. I think adding 2 inches to the elevator chord is a must do mod to a tr-1. Remember to rebalance the elevator. I have a set of original fiberglass factory elevators if anyone ever needs them. Scott Sent from my iPad On Jul 30, 2011, at 2:11 PM, Galin Hernandez wrote: > All; > > I find that even with the VG's, I run out of up trim as I am approaching to land. If I want to approach at an IAS of less than 90Kts I have to have full up trim and hold some back pressure on the stick. I want to be able to trim hands off for at least 75KIAS and then add back pressure for the flare. So I am thinking about making a modification to the tail and am wondering if any of you have done something similar. > > I am thinking of adding about 1 - 1 1/2" to the rear of the tail to include the trim tab. Has anybody done or looked into doing this to the standard tail? If so, how did you do it and what were the results? I added a "drawing" of what I am contemplating. The gray parts are what I am thinking of adding. No funny remarks about the "drawing" since I am not a Picasso. :o) > > THANKS! > > Galin > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:08:50 PM PST US From: Scott Stearns Subject: Re: KIS-List: 2011 Caribbean Holiday Trip Mark and i and a couple others took a trip to the bahamas in a cessna 310 ab out a year ago and it was great. We spent two nights at the club med on san salvador and two nights in a rented house on long island. The house on lon g island was great, 4 bedroom, pool, ocean view and you have to check out de ans blue hole even if your just flying over. I could have stayed for a week . Club med was reaaly nice too. Staniel cay was really fun with thunderbal l cave and the swimming pigs. Also normans cay has a small hotel and a c-46 ditched in the bay that is really cool to snorkel around. I know our friend with the 310 would be interested in going, but we wont kno w what our work schedules are like until later. Scott Sent from my iPad On Jul 30, 2011, at 2:37 PM, Galin Hernandez wrote: > All; > > Last year we (Us in our KIS Cruiser and a friend in his CTLS Light Sport A irplane) took a Caribbean Holiday trip with our airplanes and had a BLAST! W e enjoyed the week long flying trip so much we decided right then to do it a gain in 2011. So we are in the planning stages for this years trip. I want t o invite anybody that want to join us this year for an unforgetable flying t rip. > > We will depart the Miami Florida area (Tamiami or Homestead) on December 9 and return on December 18th. If you join us you are NOT committed to these d ates and can travel whenever you want during this time frame. These are the d ates we (Anthony in the CTLS & I in my TR-4) will be travelling and will esc ort whoever is flying those dates. Our tentrative plan is to maybe spend a d ay or two in the Bahamas, the Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico and maybe even the US Virgin Islands. This way we get away from the cold weather for a whi le. > > It looks like there are already 5 crews/airplanes that are going to make t he trip this year and several others are very interested in joining. We have made contact with the governments of the Bahamas, Dominican Republic and Pu erto Rico about this 2nd annual treip and they are very interested in provid ing support for whoever is in the trip. They have offered to sponsor a dinne r, provide transportation and special hotel rates for us if we stay a night o r two in their country. > > We will be charging a small amount for those that join to cover some expen ses but the charges will not be applied to ANY KIS (TR-1 or TR-4) aircraft m aking the trip. Hey, I make the rules on this one. There will be some charge s we can't avoid (Landing fees, overflight fees, parking, fuel, charts, etc) but nothing else. > > If you are interested in maybe joining us, send me an e-mail and we can tr y to make it work. Flying in the Caribbean during December, it doesn't get m uch better! :o) > > Galin > N819PR > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:18:13 PM PST US From: Flyinisfun@aol.com Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? Concerning the elevator extension: I added about 1 3/4" to the elevator of my TR-1. In the process I knifed edged the trailing edge with poor flying results. I had about 3/4" neutral travel without any plane response. It dawned on me that the original trailing edge had a 1/4" offset and maybe this was my problem. I took a sanding block and sanded the trailing edge blunt by about 1/8 inch with a dramatic difference. I now have control response through complete up and down travel and feed back in the stick in the neutral zone. When extending the elevator, I suggest this to be a mandatory thing to do. I have also put VG s on the lower edge which added more control. Jesse ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:16:30 PM PST US Subject: KIS-List: Hoz stab venting From: Scott Stearns I just got back from a great trip to yellowstone. We camped at the west yellowstone airport which has a grat airplane camping set up. The airport is at 6600 feet (home is sea level) and i noticed that my horizontal stab looked like it was pressurized. There were depressions along the ribs top and bottom. It went away over a couple days and i realized that it really was pressurized. I drilled a small hole in the rear spar in each bay when i got home, but i would have never noticed if i would not have gone to an airport at a significantly different elevation. Maybe the manual said to do this, but i thought id pass it along. Scott Sent from my iPad ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:40:09 PM PST US From: Robert Reed Subject: Re: KIS-List: Hoz stab venting You are right about the manual saying that all closed parts such as elevator, aileron, flaps, and etc. Should contain vent holes for pressure equalization. Just be careful with placement so you don't pickup water through them. Yup were lucky the pressure didn't cause parts to separate at bonding points. Bob Reed Sent from my iPhone On Jul 31, 2011, at 5:18 PM, Scott Stearns wrote: > > > I just got back from a great trip to yellowstone. We camped at the west yellowstone airport which has a grat airplane camping set up. The airport is at 6600 feet (home is sea level) and i noticed that my horizontal stab looked like it was pressurized. There were depressions along the ribs top and bottom. It went away over a couple days and i realized that it really was pressurized. I drilled a small hole in the rear spar in each bay when i got home, but i would have never noticed if i would not have gone to an airport at a significantly different elevation. Maybe the manual said to do this, but i thought id pass it along. > > Scott > Sent from my iPad > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:45:01 PM PST US From: Galin Hernandez Subject: Re: KIS-List: 2011 Caribbean Holiday Trip We have PLENTY of time to plan this. I will keep you updated as time gets closer. Galin On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Scott Stearns wrote: > Mark and i and a couple others took a trip to the bahamas in a cessna 310 > about a year ago and it was great. We spent two nights at the club med on > san salvador and two nights in a rented house on long island. The house on > long island was great, 4 bedroom, pool, ocean view and you have to check out > deans blue hole even if your just flying over. I could have stayed for a > week. Club med was reaaly nice too. Staniel cay was really fun with > thunderball cave and the swimming pigs. Also normans cay has a small hotel > and a c-46 ditched in the bay that is really cool to snorkel around. > > I know our friend with the 310 would be interested in going, but we wont > know what our work schedules are like until later. > > Scott > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jul 30, 2011, at 2:37 PM, Galin Hernandez wrote: > > All; > > Last year we (Us in our KIS Cruiser and a friend in his CTLS Light Sport > Airplane) took a Caribbean Holiday trip with our airplanes and had a BLAST! > We enjoyed the week long flying trip so much we decided right then to do it > again in 2011. So we are in the planning stages for this years trip. I want > to invite anybody that want to join us this year for an unforgetable flying > trip. > > We will depart the Miami Florida area (Tamiami or Homestead) on December 9 > and return on December 18th. If you join us you are NOT committed to these > dates and can travel whenever you want during this time frame. These are the > dates we (Anthony in the CTLS & I in my TR-4) will be travelling and will > escort whoever is flying those dates. Our tentrative plan is to maybe spend > a day or two in the Bahamas, the Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico and maybe > even the US Virgin Islands. This way we get away from the cold weather for a > while. > > It looks like there are already 5 crews/airplanes that are going to make > the trip this year and several others are very interested in joining. We > have made contact with the governments of the Bahamas, Dominican Republic > and Puerto Rico about this 2nd annual treip and they are very interested in > providing support for whoever is in the trip. They have offered to sponsor a > dinner, provide transportation and special hotel rates for us if we stay a > night or two in their country. > > We will be charging a small amount for those that join to cover > some expenses but the charges will not be applied to ANY KIS (TR-1 or TR-4) > aircraft making the trip. Hey, I make the rules on this one. There will be > some charges we can't avoid (Landing fees, overflight fees, parking, fuel, > charts, etc) but nothing else. > > If you are interested in maybe joining us, send me an e-mail and we can try > to make it work. Flying in the Caribbean during December, it doesn't get > much better! :o) > > Galin > N819PR > > * > > ================================== > ef="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List > ===================================ums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > ===================================http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ================================== > * > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:01:46 PM PST US From: "F. Tim Yoder" Subject: KIS-List: Elevator extension on the TR-1 I also added 1 3/4" to the elevator and have plenty of authority. A friend has a stock elevator and runs out of authority on a slow approach and touch down. When I fly his I notice that his elevator and aileron stick forces are nearly equal while mine is much lighter in pitch. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:38:25 PM PST US From: Peter Duran Subject: KIS-List: RE: KIS-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 07/30/11 I have the same issue=2C I need full up trim and extra pressure to keep the speed down to 80-90 MPH during the approach. fI I try to slow it down fur ther=2C my nose is so high that I loose sight on the runway. Pete D. > Date: Sat=2C 30 Jul 2011 23:59:11 -0700 > From: kis-list@matronics.com > To: kis-list-digest@matronics.com > Subject: KIS-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 07/30/11 > > * > > ======================== > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive > ======================== > > Today's complete KIS-List Digest can also be found in either of the > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes > and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version > of the KIS-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor > such as Notepad or with a web browser. > > HTML Version: > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=h tml&Chapter 11-07-30&Archive=KIS > > Text Version: > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=t xt&Chapter 11-07-30&Archive=KIS > > > ======================== ======================= > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive > ======================== ======================= > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > KIS-List Digest Archive > --- > Total Messages Posted Sat 07/30/11: 8 > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > Today's Message Index: > ---------------------- > > 1. 02:12 PM - Tail Mod??? (Galin Hernandez) > 2. 02:38 PM - 2011 Caribbean Holiday Trip (Galin Hernandez) > 3. 04:34 PM - Re: Tail Mod??? (tmclam@comcast.net) > 4. 05:59 PM - Re: Tail Mod??? (Robert Reed) > 5. 07:32 PM - Re: Tail Mod??? (jerzy krasinski) > 6. 07:46 PM - Re: Tail Mod??? (Galin Hernandez) > 7. 08:11 PM - Re: Tail Mod??? (Robert Reed) > 8. 09:14 PM - Re: Tail Mod??? (Robert Reed) > > > > ________________________________ Message 1 ____________________________ _________ > > > Time: 02:12:21 PM PST US > From: Galin Hernandez > Subject: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > > All=3B > > I find that even with the VG's=2C I run out of up trim as I am approachin g to > land. If I want to approach at an IAS of less than 90Kts I have to have f ull > up trim and hold some back pressure on the stick. I want to be able to tr im > hands off for at least 75KIAS and then add back pressure for the flare. S o I > am thinking about making a modification to the tail and am wondering if a ny > of you have done something similar. > > I am thinking of adding about 1 - 1 1/2" to the rear of the tail to inclu de > the trim tab. Has anybody done or looked into doing this to the standard > tail? If so=2C how did you do it and what were the results? I added a > "drawing" of what I am contemplating. The gray parts are what I am thinki ng > of adding. No funny remarks about the "drawing" since I am not a Picasso. > :o) > > THANKS! > > Galin > > [image: Horiz Stab Mod.JPG] > > ________________________________ Message 2 ____________________________ _________ > > > Time: 02:38:09 PM PST US > From: Galin Hernandez > Subject: KIS-List: 2011 Caribbean Holiday Trip > > All=3B > > Last year we (Us in our KIS Cruiser and a friend in his CTLS Light Sport > Airplane) took a Caribbean Holiday trip with our airplanes and had a BLAS T! > We enjoyed the week long flying trip so much we decided right then to do it > again in 2011. So we are in the planning stages for this years trip. I wa nt > to invite anybody that want to join us this year for an unforgetable flyi ng > trip. > > We will depart the Miami Florida area (Tamiami or Homestead) on December 9 > and return on December 18th. If you join us you are NOT committed to thes e > dates and can travel whenever you want during this time frame. These are the > dates we (Anthony in the CTLS & I in my TR-4) will be travelling and will > escort whoever is flying those dates. Our tentrative plan is to maybe spe nd > a day or two in the Bahamas=2C the Dominican Republic=2C Puerto Rico and maybe > even the US Virgin Islands. This way we get away from the cold weather fo r a > while. > > It looks like there are already 5 crews/airplanes that are going to make the > trip this year and several others are very interested in joining. We have > made contact with the governments of the Bahamas=2C Dominican Republic an d > Puerto Rico about this 2nd annual treip and they are very interested in > providing support for whoever is in the trip. They have offered to sponso r a > dinner=2C provide transportation and special hotel rates for us if we sta y a > night or two in their country. > > We will be charging a small amount for those that join to cover > some expenses but the charges will not be applied to ANY KIS (TR-1 or TR- 4) > aircraft making the trip. Hey=2C I make the rules on this one. There will be > some charges we can't avoid (Landing fees=2C overflight fees=2C parking =2C fuel=2C > charts=2C etc) but nothing else. > > If you are interested in maybe joining us=2C send me an e-mail and we can try > to make it work. Flying in the Caribbean during December=2C it doesn't ge t > much better! :o) > > Galin > N819PR > > ________________________________ Message 3 ____________________________ _________ > > > Time: 04:34:46 PM PST US > From: tmclam@comcast.net > Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > > > Galin/Before you get into any surgery=2C accurately recheck your Weight a nd B > alance.If she is nose heavy some Lead aft may be a simpler solution. > > =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2 > -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- > =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2 > -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- > =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2 > -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- > =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2 > -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- > =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2 > -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- > =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2 > -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- > =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2 > -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- > =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2 > -=C2-=C2-=C2- Ted=C2- > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Galin Hernandez" > Sent: Saturday=2C July 30=2C 2011 5:11:43 PM > Subject: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > > > All=3B > =C2- > I find that even with the VG's=2C I run out of up trim as I am approachin g to > land. If I want to approach at an IAS of less than 90Kts I have to have fu > ll up trim and hold some back pressure on the stick. I want to be able to t > rim hands off for at least 75KIAS and then=C2-add=C2-back pressure fo r > the flare. So I am thinking about making a modification to the tail and a m > wondering if any of you have done something similar. > =C2- > I am thinking of adding about 1 - 1 1/2" to the=C2-rear of the tail to in > clude the trim tab. Has=C2-anybody done or looked into doing this=C2- to > the standard tail? If so=2C how did you do it and what were the results? I a > dded a "drawing" of what I am contemplating. The gray parts are what I am t > hinking of adding. No funny remarks about the "drawing" since I am not a Pi > casso. :o) > =C2- > THANKS! > =C2- > Galin > =C2- > Horiz Stab Mod.JPG > > ________________________________ Message 4 ____________________________ _________ > > > Time: 05:59:00 PM PST US > From: Robert Reed > Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > > > ________________________________ Message 5 ____________________________ _________ > > > Time: 07:32:13 PM PST US > From: jerzy krasinski > Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > > I have extended the elevator by approximately 1.5". I have heard many com me > nts =0Athat this might be a bad idea making the plane too sensitive to the > elevator=2C =0Abut nothing like this has happened=2C the plane is very docile=2C > but the forces for =0Athe elerons and the elevator are now comparable.- > =0ANow=2C-I have much more effective elevator allowing me to hold the n ose > up longer =0Aon landing. In fact I am considering adding another inch t o th > e elevator.=0A=0AChecking the Weight and Balance is a good idea no ma tter i > f you are going to =0Aextend the elevator or not.=0A=0AJerzy=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A > ________________________________=0AFrom: "tmclam@comcast.net" st.net>=0ATo: kis-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sat=2C July 30=2C 2011 6 :34:26 PM > =0ASubject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod???=0A=0A=0AGalin/Before you ge t into any > surgery=2C accurately recheck your Weight and =0ABalance.If she is nos e heav > y some Lead aft may be a simpler solution.=0A---------- > ------------------------- > ------------------------- > ------------------------- > ------------------------- > ------------------------- > ------------------------- > ------------------------- > ------=0A Ted-=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A=0A > From: "Galin Hernandez" =0ATo: kis-list@matronics.c om > =0ASent: Saturday=2C July 30=2C 2011 5:11:43 PM=0ASubject: KIS-List: Tail Mod?? > ?=0A=0A=0AAll=3B=0A=0AI find that even with the VG's=2C I run o ut of up trim as > I am approaching to =0Aland. If I want to approach at an IAS of less t han > 90Kts I have to have full up =0Atrim and hold some back pressure on the sti > ck. I want to be able to trim hands =0Aoff for at least 75KIAS and then -a > dd-back pressure for the flare. So I am =0Athinking about making a modi fi > cation to the tail and am wondering if any of you =0Ahave done somethin g si > milar.=0A=0AI am thinking of adding about 1 - 1 1/2" to the-rear of t he t > ail to include the =0Atrim tab. Has-anybody done or looked into doing t hi > s-to the standard tail? If =0Aso=2C how did you do it and what were the res > ults? I added a "drawing" of what I =0Aam contemplating. The gray parts are > what I am thinking of adding. No funny =0Aremarks about the "drawing" sinc > e I am not a Picasso. :o)=0A=0ATHANKS!=0A=0AGalin=0A > > ________________________________ Message 6 ____________________________ _________ > > > Time: 07:46:21 PM PST US > Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > From: Galin Hernandez > > THANKS for the quick reply. I did a complete W&B back when I first starte d > to tackle this issue. The airplane W&B is very well within the envelope > during all phases of flight. It is actually a tiny bit aft so I really do n't > want to move it any further aft than it already is. That is why I first > started with the VG's and they made a big difference. But it still needs a > bit more nose up authority at slow speeds. > > Jerzy=2C do you have VG's on your elevator or just the additional 1.5"? A lso=2C > did you extend the entire elevator to include the trim tab? > > Galin > > On Saturday=2C July 30=2C 2011=2C jerzy krasinski > wrote: > > I have extended the elevator by approximately 1.5". I have heard many > comments that this might be a bad idea making the plane too sensitive to the > elevator=2C but nothing like this has happened=2C the plane is very docil e=2C but > the forces for the elerons and the elevator are now comparable. > > Now=2C I have much more effective elevator allowing me to hold the nose up > longer on landing. In fact I am considering adding another inch to the > elevator. > > > > Checking the Weight and Balance is a good idea no matter if you are goi ng > to extend the elevator or not. > > > > Jerzy > > > > ________________________________ > > From: "tmclam@comcast.net" > > To: kis-list@matronics.com > > Sent: Sat=2C July 30=2C 2011 6:34:26 PM > > Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > > > > Galin/Before you get into any surgery=2C accurately recheck your Weight and > Balance.If she is nose heavy some Lead aft may be a simpler solution. > > > > > > > &nbs > p=3B Ted > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: "Galin Hernandez" > > To: kis-list@matronics.com > > Sent: Saturday=2C July 30=2C 2011 5:11:43 PM > > Subject: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > > > > All=3B > > > > I find that even with the VG's=2C I run out of up trim as I am approach ing > to land. If I want to approach at an IAS of less than 90Kts I have to hav e > full up trim and hold some back pressure on the stick. I want to be able to > trim hands off for at least 75KIAS and then add back pressure for the fla re. > So I am thinking about making a modification to the tail and am wondering if > any of you have done something similar. > > > > I am thinking of adding about 1 - 1 1/2" to the rear of the tail to > include the trim tab. Has anybody done or looked into doing this to the > standard tail? If so=2C how did you do it and what were the results? I ad ded a > "drawing" of what I am contemplating. The gray parts are what I am thinki ng > of adding. No funny remarks about the "drawing" since I am not a Picasso. > :o) > > > > THANKS! > > > > Galin > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 ____________________________ _________ > > > Time: 08:11:04 PM PST US > From: Robert Reed > Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > > > ________________________________ Message 8 ____________________________ _________ > > > Time: 09:14:43 PM PST US > From: Robert Reed > Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > > > This is pissing me off. I have replied twice using my PC and both ended up with > no message. I don't know what the problem is but it is really frustratin g. > > Galin: check on my website under the Tips & Tricks button for Elevator E xtension > for two examples of exactly what you are proposing. Bill Shertz's mod sh ows > good detail of a solution to one issue regarding the additional counter b alance > weight. Al's use of carbon fiber would help reduce weight. > > By the way=2C I think I know someone in Big-D area that has some glasswor k experience > who could be bribed into helping. > > > Bob Reed > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jul 30=2C 2011=2C at 10:10 PM=2C Robert Reed wrot e: > > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:38:25 PM PST US From: Peter Duran Subject: KIS-List: RE: KIS-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 07/30/11 I have the same issue=2C I need full up trim and extra pressure to keep the speed down to 80-90 MPH during the approach. fI I try to slow it down fur ther=2C my nose is so high that I loose sight on the runway. Pete D. > Date: Sat=2C 30 Jul 2011 23:59:11 -0700 > From: kis-list@matronics.com > To: kis-list-digest@matronics.com > Subject: KIS-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 07/30/11 > > * > > ======================== > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive > ======================== > > Today's complete KIS-List Digest can also be found in either of the > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes > and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version > of the KIS-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor > such as Notepad or with a web browser. > > HTML Version: > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=h tml&Chapter 11-07-30&Archive=KIS > > Text Version: > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=t xt&Chapter 11-07-30&Archive=KIS > > > ======================== ======================= > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive > ======================== ======================= > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > KIS-List Digest Archive > --- > Total Messages Posted Sat 07/30/11: 8 > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > Today's Message Index: > ---------------------- > > 1. 02:12 PM - Tail Mod??? (Galin Hernandez) > 2. 02:38 PM - 2011 Caribbean Holiday Trip (Galin Hernandez) > 3. 04:34 PM - Re: Tail Mod??? (tmclam@comcast.net) > 4. 05:59 PM - Re: Tail Mod??? (Robert Reed) > 5. 07:32 PM - Re: Tail Mod??? (jerzy krasinski) > 6. 07:46 PM - Re: Tail Mod??? (Galin Hernandez) > 7. 08:11 PM - Re: Tail Mod??? (Robert Reed) > 8. 09:14 PM - Re: Tail Mod??? (Robert Reed) > > > > ________________________________ Message 1 ____________________________ _________ > > > Time: 02:12:21 PM PST US > From: Galin Hernandez > Subject: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > > All=3B > > I find that even with the VG's=2C I run out of up trim as I am approachin g to > land. If I want to approach at an IAS of less than 90Kts I have to have f ull > up trim and hold some back pressure on the stick. I want to be able to tr im > hands off for at least 75KIAS and then add back pressure for the flare. S o I > am thinking about making a modification to the tail and am wondering if a ny > of you have done something similar. > > I am thinking of adding about 1 - 1 1/2" to the rear of the tail to inclu de > the trim tab. Has anybody done or looked into doing this to the standard > tail? If so=2C how did you do it and what were the results? I added a > "drawing" of what I am contemplating. The gray parts are what I am thinki ng > of adding. No funny remarks about the "drawing" since I am not a Picasso. > :o) > > THANKS! > > Galin > > [image: Horiz Stab Mod.JPG] > > ________________________________ Message 2 ____________________________ _________ > > > Time: 02:38:09 PM PST US > From: Galin Hernandez > Subject: KIS-List: 2011 Caribbean Holiday Trip > > All=3B > > Last year we (Us in our KIS Cruiser and a friend in his CTLS Light Sport > Airplane) took a Caribbean Holiday trip with our airplanes and had a BLAS T! > We enjoyed the week long flying trip so much we decided right then to do it > again in 2011. So we are in the planning stages for this years trip. I wa nt > to invite anybody that want to join us this year for an unforgetable flyi ng > trip. > > We will depart the Miami Florida area (Tamiami or Homestead) on December 9 > and return on December 18th. If you join us you are NOT committed to thes e > dates and can travel whenever you want during this time frame. These are the > dates we (Anthony in the CTLS & I in my TR-4) will be travelling and will > escort whoever is flying those dates. Our tentrative plan is to maybe spe nd > a day or two in the Bahamas=2C the Dominican Republic=2C Puerto Rico and maybe > even the US Virgin Islands. This way we get away from the cold weather fo r a > while. > > It looks like there are already 5 crews/airplanes that are going to make the > trip this year and several others are very interested in joining. We have > made contact with the governments of the Bahamas=2C Dominican Republic an d > Puerto Rico about this 2nd annual treip and they are very interested in > providing support for whoever is in the trip. They have offered to sponso r a > dinner=2C provide transportation and special hotel rates for us if we sta y a > night or two in their country. > > We will be charging a small amount for those that join to cover > some expenses but the charges will not be applied to ANY KIS (TR-1 or TR- 4) > aircraft making the trip. Hey=2C I make the rules on this one. There will be > some charges we can't avoid (Landing fees=2C overflight fees=2C parking =2C fuel=2C > charts=2C etc) but nothing else. > > If you are interested in maybe joining us=2C send me an e-mail and we can try > to make it work. Flying in the Caribbean during December=2C it doesn't ge t > much better! :o) > > Galin > N819PR > > ________________________________ Message 3 ____________________________ _________ > > > Time: 04:34:46 PM PST US > From: tmclam@comcast.net > Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > > > Galin/Before you get into any surgery=2C accurately recheck your Weight a nd B > alance.If she is nose heavy some Lead aft may be a simpler solution. > > =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2 > -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- > =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2 > -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- > =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2 > -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- > =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2 > -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- > =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2 > -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- > =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2 > -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- > =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2 > -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- > =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2 > -=C2-=C2-=C2- Ted=C2- > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Galin Hernandez" > Sent: Saturday=2C July 30=2C 2011 5:11:43 PM > Subject: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > > > All=3B > =C2- > I find that even with the VG's=2C I run out of up trim as I am approachin g to > land. If I want to approach at an IAS of less than 90Kts I have to have fu > ll up trim and hold some back pressure on the stick. I want to be able to t > rim hands off for at least 75KIAS and then=C2-add=C2-back pressure fo r > the flare. So I am thinking about making a modification to the tail and a m > wondering if any of you have done something similar. > =C2- > I am thinking of adding about 1 - 1 1/2" to the=C2-rear of the tail to in > clude the trim tab. Has=C2-anybody done or looked into doing this=C2- to > the standard tail? If so=2C how did you do it and what were the results? I a > dded a "drawing" of what I am contemplating. The gray parts are what I am t > hinking of adding. No funny remarks about the "drawing" since I am not a Pi > casso. :o) > =C2- > THANKS! > =C2- > Galin > =C2- > Horiz Stab Mod.JPG > > ________________________________ Message 4 ____________________________ _________ > > > Time: 05:59:00 PM PST US > From: Robert Reed > Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > > > ________________________________ Message 5 ____________________________ _________ > > > Time: 07:32:13 PM PST US > From: jerzy krasinski > Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > > I have extended the elevator by approximately 1.5". I have heard many com me > nts =0Athat this might be a bad idea making the plane too sensitive to the > elevator=2C =0Abut nothing like this has happened=2C the plane is very docile=2C > but the forces for =0Athe elerons and the elevator are now comparable.- > =0ANow=2C-I have much more effective elevator allowing me to hold the n ose > up longer =0Aon landing. In fact I am considering adding another inch t o th > e elevator.=0A=0AChecking the Weight and Balance is a good idea no ma tter i > f you are going to =0Aextend the elevator or not.=0A=0AJerzy=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A > ________________________________=0AFrom: "tmclam@comcast.net" st.net>=0ATo: kis-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sat=2C July 30=2C 2011 6 :34:26 PM > =0ASubject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod???=0A=0A=0AGalin/Before you ge t into any > surgery=2C accurately recheck your Weight and =0ABalance.If she is nos e heav > y some Lead aft may be a simpler solution.=0A---------- > ------------------------- > ------------------------- > ------------------------- > ------------------------- > ------------------------- > ------------------------- > ------------------------- > ------=0A Ted-=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A=0A > From: "Galin Hernandez" =0ATo: kis-list@matronics.c om > =0ASent: Saturday=2C July 30=2C 2011 5:11:43 PM=0ASubject: KIS-List: Tail Mod?? > ?=0A=0A=0AAll=3B=0A=0AI find that even with the VG's=2C I run o ut of up trim as > I am approaching to =0Aland. If I want to approach at an IAS of less t han > 90Kts I have to have full up =0Atrim and hold some back pressure on the sti > ck. I want to be able to trim hands =0Aoff for at least 75KIAS and then -a > dd-back pressure for the flare. So I am =0Athinking about making a modi fi > cation to the tail and am wondering if any of you =0Ahave done somethin g si > milar.=0A=0AI am thinking of adding about 1 - 1 1/2" to the-rear of t he t > ail to include the =0Atrim tab. Has-anybody done or looked into doing t hi > s-to the standard tail? If =0Aso=2C how did you do it and what were the res > ults? I added a "drawing" of what I =0Aam contemplating. The gray parts are > what I am thinking of adding. No funny =0Aremarks about the "drawing" sinc > e I am not a Picasso. :o)=0A=0ATHANKS!=0A=0AGalin=0A > > ________________________________ Message 6 ____________________________ _________ > > > Time: 07:46:21 PM PST US > Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > From: Galin Hernandez > > THANKS for the quick reply. I did a complete W&B back when I first starte d > to tackle this issue. The airplane W&B is very well within the envelope > during all phases of flight. It is actually a tiny bit aft so I really do n't > want to move it any further aft than it already is. That is why I first > started with the VG's and they made a big difference. But it still needs a > bit more nose up authority at slow speeds. > > Jerzy=2C do you have VG's on your elevator or just the additional 1.5"? A lso=2C > did you extend the entire elevator to include the trim tab? > > Galin > > On Saturday=2C July 30=2C 2011=2C jerzy krasinski > wrote: > > I have extended the elevator by approximately 1.5". I have heard many > comments that this might be a bad idea making the plane too sensitive to the > elevator=2C but nothing like this has happened=2C the plane is very docil e=2C but > the forces for the elerons and the elevator are now comparable. > > Now=2C I have much more effective elevator allowing me to hold the nose up > longer on landing. In fact I am considering adding another inch to the > elevator. > > > > Checking the Weight and Balance is a good idea no matter if you are goi ng > to extend the elevator or not. > > > > Jerzy > > > > ________________________________ > > From: "tmclam@comcast.net" > > To: kis-list@matronics.com > > Sent: Sat=2C July 30=2C 2011 6:34:26 PM > > Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > > > > Galin/Before you get into any surgery=2C accurately recheck your Weight and > Balance.If she is nose heavy some Lead aft may be a simpler solution. > > > > > > > &nbs > p=3B Ted > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: "Galin Hernandez" > > To: kis-list@matronics.com > > Sent: Saturday=2C July 30=2C 2011 5:11:43 PM > > Subject: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > > > > All=3B > > > > I find that even with the VG's=2C I run out of up trim as I am approach ing > to land. If I want to approach at an IAS of less than 90Kts I have to hav e > full up trim and hold some back pressure on the stick. I want to be able to > trim hands off for at least 75KIAS and then add back pressure for the fla re. > So I am thinking about making a modification to the tail and am wondering if > any of you have done something similar. > > > > I am thinking of adding about 1 - 1 1/2" to the rear of the tail to > include the trim tab. Has anybody done or looked into doing this to the > standard tail? If so=2C how did you do it and what were the results? I ad ded a > "drawing" of what I am contemplating. The gray parts are what I am thinki ng > of adding. No funny remarks about the "drawing" since I am not a Picasso. > :o) > > > > THANKS! > > > > Galin > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 ____________________________ _________ > > > Time: 08:11:04 PM PST US > From: Robert Reed > Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > > > ________________________________ Message 8 ____________________________ _________ > > > Time: 09:14:43 PM PST US > From: Robert Reed > Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > > > This is pissing me off. I have replied twice using my PC and both ended up with > no message. I don't know what the problem is but it is really frustratin g. > > Galin: check on my website under the Tips & Tricks button for Elevator E xtension > for two examples of exactly what you are proposing. Bill Shertz's mod sh ows > good detail of a solution to one issue regarding the additional counter b alance > weight. Al's use of carbon fiber would help reduce weight. > > By the way=2C I think I know someone in Big-D area that has some glasswor k experience > who could be bribed into helping. > > > Bob Reed > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jul 30=2C 2011=2C at 10:10 PM=2C Robert Reed wrot e: > > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:23:08 PM PST US From: "Bill Schertz" Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? Here is what I did. Bill Schertz KIS Cruiser #4045 N343BS Phase one testing Completed From: Galin Hernandez Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 9:46 PM Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? THANKS for the quick reply. I did a complete W&B back when I first started to tackle this issue. The airplane W&B is very well within the envelope during all phases of flight. It is actually a tiny bit aft so I really don't want to move it any further aft than it already is. That is why I first started with the VG's and they made a big difference. But it still needs a bit more nose up authority at slow speeds. Jerzy, do you have VG's on your elevator or just the additional 1.5"? Also, did you extend the entire elevator to include the trim tab? Galin On Saturday, July 30, 2011, jerzy krasinski wrote: > I have extended the elevator by approximately 1.5". I have heard many comments that this might be a bad idea making the plane too sensitive to the elevator, but nothing like this has happened, the plane is very docile, but the forces for the elerons and the elevator are now comparable. > Now, I have much more effective elevator allowing me to hold the nose up longer on landing. In fact I am considering adding another inch to the elevator. > > Checking the Weight and Balance is a good idea no matter if you are going to extend the elevator or not. > > Jerzy > > ________________________________ > From: "tmclam@comcast.net" > To: kis-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sat, July 30, 2011 6:34:26 PM > Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > > Galin/Before you get into any surgery, accurately recheck your Weight and Balance.If she is nose heavy some Lead aft may be a simpler solution. > > &nbs p; Ted > > ________________________________ > > From: "Galin Hernandez" > To: kis-list@matronics.com > Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 5:11:43 PM > Subject: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > > All; > > I find that even with the VG's, I run out of up trim as I am approaching to land. If I want to approach at an IAS of less than 90Kts I have to have full up trim and hold some back pressure on the stick. I want to be able to trim hands off for at least 75KIAS and then add back pressure for the flare. So I am thinking about making a modification to the tail and am wondering if any of you have done something similar. > > I am thinking of adding about 1 - 1 1/2" to the rear of the tail to include the trim tab. Has anybody done or looked into doing this to the standard tail? If so, how did you do it and what were the results? I added a "drawing" of what I am contemplating. The gray parts are what I am thinking of adding. No funny remarks about the "drawing" since I am not a Picasso. :o) > > THANKS! > > Galin > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kis-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/KIS-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kis-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kis-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.