---------------------------------------------------------- KIS-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 08/03/11: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:59 AM - Re: Tail Mod??? (Mark Kettering) 2. 07:11 AM - Re: Tail Mod??? (John Forster) 3. 07:25 AM - Re: Tail Mod??? (Robert Reed) 4. 07:32 AM - Engine Mount for Continental IO-360 (Robert Reed) 5. 08:15 AM - Engine Mount for Continental IO-360 () 6. 08:32 AM - Engine Mount for Lycoming IO-360 (John Forster) 7. 09:14 AM - Re: Tail Mod??? (Mark Kettering) 8. 09:24 AM - Re: Tail Mod??? (John Forster) 9. 09:43 AM - Re: Tail Mod??? (Larry David) 10. 12:29 PM - Re: Engine Mount for Continental IO-360 (Scott Stearns) 11. 06:57 PM - Re: Re: KIS-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 07/30/11 (Peter Duran) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:59:15 AM PST US From: Mark Kettering Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? Hi Jerzy, Has you main gear contact location been moved forward? The stock trim tab size is too small. It should be double the size. Mark -----Original Message----- From: jerzy krasinski Sent: Jul 31, 2011 10:36 AM Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? I have VGs added recently, they help too, but I feel that an extra inch is needed, making total of 2.5" extension. My trimmer is roughly twice the size of the original trimmer. With all of these I can trim ok for approach for landing, however the nose still drops down at relatively high speed. Jerzy From: Galin Hernandez Sent: Sat, July 30, 2011 9:46:01 PM Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? THANKS for the quick reply. I did a complete W&B back when I first started to tackle this issue. The airplane W&B is very well within the envelope during all phases of flight. It is actually a tiny bit aft so I really don't want to move it any further aft than it already is. That is why I first started with the VG's and they made a big difference. But it still needs a bit more nose up authority at slow speeds. Jerzy, do you have VG's on your elevator or just the additional 1.5"? Also, did you extend the entire elevator to include the trim tab? Galin On Saturday, July 30, 2011, jerzy krasinski wrote: > I have extended the elevator by approximately 1.5". I have heard many comments that this might be a bad idea making the plane too sensitive to the elevator, but nothing like this has happened, the plane is very docile, but the forces for the elerons and the elevator are now comparable. > Now, I have much more effective elevator allowing me to hold the nose up longer on landing. In fact I am considering adding another inch to the elevator. > > Checking the Weight and Balance is a good idea no matter if you are going to extend the elevator or not. > > Jerzy > > ________________________________ > From: "tmclam@comcast.net" > To: kis-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sat, July 30, 2011 6:34:26 PM > Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > > Galin/Before you get into any surgery, accurately recheck your Weight and Balance.If she is nose heavy some Lead aft may be a simpler solution. > > &n bs p; Ted > > ________________________________ > > From: "Galin Hernandez" > To: kis-list@matronics.com > Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 5:11:43 PM > Subject: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > > All; > > I find that even with the VG's, I run out of up trim as I am approaching to land. If I want to approach at an IAS of less than 90Kts I have to have full up trim and hold some back pressure on the stick. I want to be able to trim hands off for at least 75KIAS and then add back pressure for the flare. So I am thinking about making a modification to the tail and am wondering if any of you have done something similar. > > I am thinking of adding about 1 - 1 1/2" to the rear of the tail to include the trim tab. Has anybody done or looked into doing this to the standard tail? If so, how did you do it and what were the results? I added a "drawing" of what I am contemplating. The gray parts are what I am thinking of adding. No funny remarks about the "drawing" since I am not a Picasso. :o) > > THANKS! > > Galin > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:11:56 AM PST US Subject: RE: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? From: "John Forster" Mark, By double the size, do you mean in span or chord? And how much do you suggest moving the main gear forward? Thanks! John Forster -----Original Message----- From: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Kettering Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 5:46 AM Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? Hi Jerzy, Has you main gear contact location been moved forward? The stock trim tab size is too small. It should be double the size. Mark -----Original Message----- From: jerzy krasinski Sent: Jul 31, 2011 10:36 AM Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? I have VGs added recently, they help too, but I feel that an extra inch is needed, making total of 2.5" extension. My trimmer is roughly twice the size of the original trimmer. With all of these I can trim ok for approach for landing, however the nose still drops down at relatively high speed. Jerzy From: Galin Hernandez Sent: Sat, July 30, 2011 9:46:01 PM Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? THANKS for the quick reply. I did a complete W&B back when I first started to tackle this issue. The airplane W&B is very well within the envelope during all phases of flight. It is actually a tiny bit aft so I really don't want to move it any further aft than it already is. That is why I first started with the VG's and they made a big difference. But it still needs a bit more nose up authority at slow speeds. Jerzy, do you have VG's on your elevator or just the additional 1.5"? Also, did you extend the entire elevator to include the trim tab? Galin On Saturday, July 30, 2011, jerzy krasinski wrote: > I have extended the elevator by approximately 1.5". I have heard many comments that this might be a bad idea making the plane too sensitive to the elevator, but nothing like this has happened, the plane is very docile, but the forces for the elerons and the elevator are now comparable. > Now, I have much more effective elevator allowing me to hold the nose up longer on landing. In fact I am considering adding another inch to the elevator. > > Checking the Weight and Balance is a good idea no matter if you are going to extend the elevator or not. > > Jerzy > > ________________________________ > From: "tmclam@comcast.net" > To: kis-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sat, July 30, 2011 6:34:26 PM > Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > > Galin/Before you get into any surgery, accurately recheck your Weight and Balance.If she is nose heavy some Lead aft may be a simpler solution. > > &n bs p; Ted > > ________________________________ > > From: "Galin Hernandez" > To: kis-list@matronics.com > Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 5:11:43 PM > Subject: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > > All; > > I find that even with the VG's, I run out of up trim as I am approaching to land. If I want to approach at an IAS of less than 90Kts I have to have full up trim and hold some back pressure on the stick. I want to be able to trim hands off for at least 75KIAS and then add back pressure for the flare. So I am thinking about making a modification to the tail and am wondering if any of you have done something similar. > > I am thinking of adding about 1 - 1 1/2" to the rear of the tail to > include the trim tab. Has anybody done or looked into doing this to > the standard tail? If so, how did you do it and what were the results? > I added a "drawing" of what I am contemplating. The gray parts are > what I am thinking of adding. No funny remarks about the "drawing" > since I am not a Picasso. :o) > > THANKS! > > Galin > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:25:46 AM PST US From: Robert Reed Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? Mark,=0A=0AWhen I first assembled my elevators and did the initial cuts for the trim tab it =0Ajust didn't look right.- It seemed to be much too lar ge so I reread the =0Ainstructions and discovered that I had incorrectly re ad the location of the =0Ahinge line.- I filled the area and recut along the correct location.- Now it =0Aseems that if I had not caught the mista ke I might have been better off.- Funny =0Ahow things seem to go in circl es.=0A=0ABob Reed=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Mark Kettering =0ATo: kis-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Wed, August 3, 2011 5:45:35 AM=0ASubject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod???=0A=0A--> KI S-List message posted by: Mark Kettering =0A=0AHi Je rzy,=0A=0AHas you main gear contact location been moved forward?=0A=0AThe s tock trim tab size is too small.- It should be double the size.=0A=0AMark =0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0A=0AFrom: jerzy krasinski =0A=0ASent: Jul 31, 2011 10:36 AM=0A=0ATo: kis-list@matronics.com=0A=0ASubject: Re: KIS-Li st: Tail Mod???=0A=0A=0A=0AI have VGs added recently, they help too, but I feel that an extra inch is =0Aneeded, making total of 2.5" extension.=0AMy trimmer is roughly twice the size of the original trimmer. With all of thes e =0AI can trim ok for approach for landing, however the nose still drops d own at =0Arelatively high speed.=0AJerzy=0A=0AFrom: Galin Hernandez =0ATo: "kis-list@matronics.com" =0ASen t: Sat, July 30, 2011 9:46:01 PM=0ASubject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod???=0A=0A =0ATHANKS for the quick reply. I did a complete W&B back when I first start ed to =0Atackle this issue. The airplane W&B is very well within the envelo pe during all =0Aphases of flight. It is actually a tiny bit aft so I reall y don't want to move =0Ait any further aft than it already is. That is why I first started with the VG's =0Aand they made a big difference. But it sti ll needs a bit more nose up authority =0Aat slow speeds.=0A=0A=0AJerzy, do you have VG's on your elevator or just the additional 1.5"? Also, did =0Ayo u extend the entire elevator to include the trim tab?=0A=0AGalin=0A=0AOn Sa turday, July 30, 2011, jerzy krasinski =0Aw rote:=0A=0A> I have extended the elevator by approximately 1.5". I have hea rd many comments =0A>that this might be a bad idea making the plane too sen sitive to the elevator, =0A>but nothing like this has happened, the plane i s very docile, but the forces for =0A>the elerons and the elevator are now comparable. =0A>=0A=0A> Now, I have much more effective elevator allowing m e to hold the nose up longer =0A>on landing. In fact I am considering addin g another inch to the elevator.=0A>- =0A> Checking the Weight and Balance is a good idea no matter if you are going to =0A>extend the elevator or no t.=0A=0A>- =0A> Jerzy=0A>=0A> ________________________________=0A> From: "tmclam@comcast.net" =0A=0A> To: kis-list@matronics.com =0A> Sent: Sat, July 30, 2011 6:34:26 PM=0A> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mo d???=0A>=0A> Galin/Before you get into any surgery, accurately recheck your Weight and =0A>Balance.If she is nose heavy some Lead aft may be a simpler solution.=0A=0A>=0A>=0A- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - =0A- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - =0A&n=0Abs p;- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Ted =0A=0A>=0A> ___________ _____________________=0A>=0A> From: "Galin Hernandez" =0A> To: kis-list@matronics.com=0A=0A> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 5:11:4 3 PM=0A> Subject: KIS-List: Tail Mod???=0A>=0A> All;=0A>- =0A> I find tha t even with the VG's, I run out of up trim as I am approaching to =0A>land. If I want to approach at an IAS of less than 90Kts I have to have full up =0A>trim and hold some back pressure on the stick. I want to be able to tri m hands =0A>off for at least 75KIAS and then add back pressure for the flar e. So I am =0A>thinking about making a modification to the tail and am wond ering if any of you =0A>have done something similar.=0A=0A>- =0A> I am th inking of adding about 1 - 1 1/2" to the rear of the tail to include the =0A>trim tab. Has anybody done or looked into doing this to the standard ta il? If =0A>so, how did you do it and what were the results? I added a "draw ing" of what I =0A>am contemplating. The gray parts are what I am thinking of adding. No funny =0A>remarks about the "drawing" since I am not a Picass o. :o)=0A=0A>- =0A> THANKS!=0A>- =0A> Galin=0A>- =0A> =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =========================0A ================= ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:32:35 AM PST US From: Robert Reed Subject: KIS-List: Engine Mount for Continental IO-360 All,=0A=0AI have been in contact with a builder in San Antonio who is worki ng on a KIS =0ACruiser and is planning on installation of a Continental IO- 360 engine.- Does =0Aanyone know where they can locate a fabricator for t he engine mount for that =0Aengine?- I know there have been several used but do not know who manufactured =0Athe mounts.- =0A=0A=0AI am trying to get them on this list but until then can anyone give me a lead?- =0AThey are already in contact with Lyle Hendricks for obtaining the Nose Gear but =0Awill probably need a few more parts based on what I have found out thus far.=0A=0ABob Reed ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:15:45 AM PST US From: Subject: KIS-List: Engine Mount for Continental IO-360 8/3/2011 Hello Bob Reed, Bill Grote may be able to help you. Rich Trickel may have his email address or phone number. I don't. 'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to gather and understand knowledge." ======== From: Robert Reed To: kis-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 10:32 AM Subject: KIS-List: Engine Mount for Continental IO-360 All, I have been in contact with a builder in San Antonio who is working on a KIS Cruiser and is planning on installation of a Continental IO-360 engine. Does anyone know where they can locate a fabricator for the engine mount for that engine? I know there have been several used but do not know who manufactured the mounts. I am trying to get them on this list but until then can anyone give me a lead? They are already in contact with Lyle Hendricks for obtaining the Nose Gear but will probably need a few more parts based on what I have found out thus far. Bob Reed ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:32:26 AM PST US Subject: KIS-List: Engine Mount for Lycoming IO-360 From: "John Forster" Hey, Does anyone have an engine mount for a Lycoming they would be willing to part with? My kit did not come with one, and I need to procure one. Thanks, John Forster ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:14:24 AM PST US From: Mark Kettering Subject: RE: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? John, It is best to increase the tab in length. But you could add a second tab on the other side or you can increase the tab in both length and cord to double the area. Just increasing it in cord is not as effective but as a quick fix you can scarf of more cord to the current tab and test fly it. Make sure your surface is still in the range of balance. Is yours a TR1 or TR4? In any case I can not tell from my old notes what amount I did. The way to figure it out is you find alpha for the airfoil at 0.9 of max Cl. This is about 6 to 8 degrees for our airfoil depending on flaps. From this subtract the wing incidence angle, I think 2 degrees. Then add 3 degrees. I think I used 8 degrees for this total (7-2+3=8). Then find your most aft CG and estimate the height of this. From this point make a line down to the ground that is slanted 8 degrees aft of vertical. Where this line meets the ground is the location for the main gear. This method is from Darrol Stinton's book. Mark -----Original Message----- >From: John Forster >Sent: Aug 3, 2011 10:10 AM >To: kis-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > > >Mark, > >By double the size, do you mean in span or chord? > >And how much do you suggest moving the main gear forward? > >Thanks! >John Forster > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:24:56 AM PST US Subject: RE: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? From: "John Forster" Thanks Mark! I've got a TR-4. I'm still building, so let the flaming begin :) I can add length to the tab fairly easily at this point, but adding chord would mess up my servo installation. I'll give the calcs a go. I don't have Stinton's book, but I've got Skip Smith's book and I'll see what he has to say. John -----Original Message----- From: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Kettering Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 11:14 AM Subject: RE: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? John, It is best to increase the tab in length. But you could add a second tab on the other side or you can increase the tab in both length and cord to double the area. Just increasing it in cord is not as effective but as a quick fix you can scarf of more cord to the current tab and test fly it. Make sure your surface is still in the range of balance. Is yours a TR1 or TR4? In any case I can not tell from my old notes what amount I did. The way to figure it out is you find alpha for the airfoil at 0.9 of max Cl. This is about 6 to 8 degrees for our airfoil depending on flaps. From this subtract the wing incidence angle, I think 2 degrees. Then add 3 degrees. I think I used 8 degrees for this total (7-2+3=8). Then find your most aft CG and estimate the height of this. From this point make a line down to the ground that is slanted 8 degrees aft of vertical. Where this line meets the ground is the location for the main gear. This method is from Darrol Stinton's book. Mark -----Original Message----- >From: John Forster >Sent: Aug 3, 2011 10:10 AM >To: kis-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > > >Mark, > >By double the size, do you mean in span or chord? > >And how much do you suggest moving the main gear forward? > >Thanks! >John Forster > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:43:15 AM PST US From: Larry David Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? Seeing all the improvements you guys are coming up with based on your actual flying experience makes me almost want to build another one. Keep up the good work so I can share vicariously in your progress. Larry On 8/3/2011 9:22 AM, John Forster wrote: > --> KIS-List message posted by: "John Forster" > > Thanks Mark! > > I've got a TR-4. I'm still building, so let the flaming begin :) > > I can add length to the tab fairly easily at this point, but adding chord would mess up my servo installation. > > I'll give the calcs a go. I don't have Stinton's book, but I've got Skip Smith's book and I'll see what he has to say. > > John > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Kettering > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 11:14 AM > To: kis-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > > --> KIS-List message posted by: Mark Kettering > > John, > > It is best to increase the tab in length. But you could add a second tab on the other side or you can increase the tab in both length and cord to double the area. Just increasing it in cord is not as effective but as a quick fix you can scarf of more cord to the current tab and test fly it. Make sure your surface is still in the range of balance. > > Is yours a TR1 or TR4? In any case I can not tell from my old notes what amount I did. The way to figure it out is you find alpha for the airfoil at 0.9 of max Cl. This is about 6 to 8 degrees for our airfoil depending on flaps. From this subtract the wing incidence angle, I think 2 degrees. Then add 3 degrees. I think I used 8 degrees for this total (7-2+3=8). Then find your most aft CG and estimate the height of this. From this point make a line down to the ground that is slanted 8 degrees aft of vertical. Where this line meets the ground is the location for the main gear. This method is from Darrol Stinton's book. > > Mark > > -----Original Message----- >> From: John Forster >> Sent: Aug 3, 2011 10:10 AM >> To: kis-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RE: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? >> >> --> KIS-List message posted by: "John Forster" >> >> Mark, >> >> By double the size, do you mean in span or chord? >> >> And how much do you suggest moving the main gear forward? >> >> Thanks! >> John Forster >> > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:29:54 PM PST US From: Scott Stearns Subject: Re: KIS-List: Engine Mount for Continental IO-360 Is he aware of the kind of power a parallel valve lycoming IO-360 makes wit h a few mods?- =0A-=0AMy engine has 10:1 pistons and ported heads and m akes a solid 220 HP at sea level, but the big reason for do the mods is pow er at altitude.- I know at least 3 other people that run the same engine mods-at my home airport and the shop that built my engine said that it is basically their standard build for a homebuilt.- It is a lighter, cheape r, simpler option over the 6 clyinder cont and it makes a bit more power an d you use the standard engine mount.- Also the P-mag ignitions are availa ble for the lycoming which I highly recommend.- =0A-=0ABut....-I were to build a 4 place I would use a parallel valve IO-540 with the same mods as my 360 and it would make about 330 HP.- That's more power than you rea lly need down low, but it would give great cruise performance/economy lean of peak at 10-12,000 feet.- I normally do not run my engine over the fact ory 180HP rating and I would do the same with the 540.- These engines are available on the used market pretty cheap and you can do the mods with a t op overhaul.-- The 540/fixed prop vs the 360/constant speed prop (like -Bill G.'s airplane)-would be about the same weight and if you bought a mid time 540 and-just pulled the clyinders to port the head and replace the pistons-it would be pretty ecomonical.- There is a 133-SMOH O-540 in trade a plane right now asking $12,500, add-another few thousand to c onvert fuel injection, buy new pistons, have the clyinders ported and switc h-to a light starter-and you would have a heck of an engine.=0A-=0AI' m running 170 KTAS at 10-12,000 at 8 gph in my TR-1 lean of peak-and hot/ high-performance-is just not an issue.-- I took off out of Carson, NV at 9000' density altitude with me 215 lbs, girlfriend 125 lbs and 60 pou nds of stuff and 42 gallons of fuel and climbed out at 900-1000 fpm.-- The modded 540 in a TR-4 would probably do even better fully loaded.- =0A -=0AScott=0A=0AFrom: Robert Reed =0ATo: kis-list@matr onics.com=0ASent: Wednesday, August 3, 2011 7:32 AM=0ASubject: KIS-List: En gine Mount for Continental IO-360=0A=0A=0AAll, =0A=0AI have been in contact with a builder in San Antonio who is working on a KIS Cruiser and is plann ing on installation of a Continental IO-360 engine.- Does anyone know whe re they can locate a fabricator for the engine mount for that engine?- I know there have been several used but do not know who manufactured the moun ts.- =0A=0AI am trying to get them on this list but until then can anyon e give me a lead?- They are already in contact with Lyle Hendricks for ob taining the Nose Gear but will probably need a few more parts based on what ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:57:47 PM PST US From: Peter Duran Subject: RE: KIS-List: RE: KIS-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 07/30/11 Good point=2C I only have 2 flap positions. Thanks. Date: Mon=2C 1 Aug 2011 08:36:32 -0400 Subject: Re: KIS-List: RE: KIS-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 07/30/11 From: fredorosa@gmail.com Sounds like you have enough elevator control but not enough flaps to slow y ou down. The downward angle of the flaps can be increased to 30 degrees. Al On Sun=2C Jul 31=2C 2011 at 9:37 PM=2C Peter Duran wrote : I have the same issue=2C I need full up trim and extra pressure to keep the speed down to 80-90 MPH during the approach. fI I try to slow it down fur ther=2C my nose is so high that I loose sight on the runway. Pete D. > Date: Sat=2C 30 Jul 2011 23:59:11 -0700 > From: kis-list@matronics.com > To: kis-list-digest@matronics.com > Subject: KIS-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 07/30/11 > > * > > ======================== > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive > ======================== > > Today's complete KIS-List Digest can also be found in either of the > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes > and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version > of the KIS-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor > such as Notepad or with a web browser. > > HTML Version: > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html& Chapter 11-07-30&Archive=KIS > > Text Version: > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&C hapter 11-07-30&Archive=KIS > > > ====================== > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive > ====================== > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > KIS-List Digest Archive > --- > Total Messages Posted Sat 07/30/11: 8 > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > Today's Message Index: > ---------------------- > > 1. 02:12 PM - Tail Mod??? (Galin Hernandez) > 2. 02:38 PM - 2011 Caribbean Holiday Trip (Galin Hernandez) > 3. 04:34 PM - Re: Tail Mod??? (tmclam@comcast.net) > 4. 05:59 PM - Re: Tail Mod??? (Robert Reed) > 5. 07:32 PM - Re: Tail Mod??? (jerzy krasinski) > 6. 07:46 PM - Re: Tail Mod??? (Galin Hernandez) > 7. 08:11 PM - Re: Tail Mod??? (Robert Reed) > 8. 09:14 PM - Re: Tail Mod??? (Robert Reed) > > > > ________________________________ Message 1 ______________________________ _______ > > > Time: 02:12:21 PM PST US > From: Galin Hernandez > Subject: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > > All=3B > > I find that even with the VG's=2C I run out of up trim as I am approachin g to > land. If I want to approach at an IAS of less than 90Kts I have to have f ull > up trim and hold some back pressure on the stick. I want to be able to tr im > hands off for at least 75KIAS and then add back pressure for the flare. S o I > am thinking about making a modification to the tail and am wondering if a ny > of you have done something similar. > > I am thinking of adding about 1 - 1 1/2" to the rear of the tail to inclu de > the trim tab. Has anybody done or looked into doing this to the standard > tail? If so=2C how did you do it and what were the results? I added a > "drawing" of what I am contemplating. The gray parts are what I am thinki ng > of adding. No funny remarks about the "drawing" since I am not a Picasso. > :o) > > THANKS! > > Galin > > [image: Horiz Stab Mod.JPG] > > ________________________________ Message 2 ______________________________ _______ > > > Time: 02:38:09 PM PST US > From: Galin Hernandez > Subject: KIS-List: 2011 Caribbean Holiday Trip > > All=3B > > Last year we (Us in our KIS Cruiser and a friend in his CTLS Light Sport > Airplane) took a Caribbean Holiday trip with our airplanes and had a BLAS T! > We enjoyed the week long flying trip so much we decided right then to do it > again in 2011. So we are in the planning stages for this years trip. I wa nt > to invite anybody that want to join us this year for an unforgetable flyi ng > trip. > > We will depart the Miami Florida area (Tamiami or Homestead) on December 9 > and return on December 18th. If you join us you are NOT committed to thes e > dates and can travel whenever you want during this time frame. These are the > dates we (Anthony in the CTLS & I in my TR-4) will be travelling and will > escort whoever is flying those dates. Our tentrative plan is to maybe spe nd > a day or two in the Bahamas=2C the Dominican Republic=2C Puerto Rico and maybe > even the US Virgin Islands. This way we get away from the cold weather fo r a > while. > > It looks like there are already 5 crews/airplanes that are going to make the > trip this year and several others are very interested in joining. We have > made contact with the governments of the Bahamas=2C Dominican Republic an d > Puerto Rico about this 2nd annual treip and they are very interested in > providing support for whoever is in the trip. They have offered to sponso r a > dinner=2C provide transportation and special hotel rates for us if we sta y a > night or two in their country. > > We will be charging a small amount for those that join to cover > some expenses but the charges will not be applied to ANY KIS (TR-1 or TR- 4) > aircraft making the trip. Hey=2C I make the rules on this one. There will be > some charges we can't avoid (Landing fees=2C overflight fees=2C parking =2C fuel=2C > charts=2C etc) but nothing else. > > If you are interested in maybe joining us=2C send me an e-mail and we can try > to make it work. Flying in the Caribbean during December=2C it doesn't ge t > much better! :o) > > Galin > N819PR > > ________________________________ Message 3 ______________________________ _______ > > > Time: 04:34:46 PM PST US > From: tmclam@comcast.net > Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > > > Galin/Before you get into any surgery=2C accurately recheck your Weight a nd B > alance.If she is nose heavy some Lead aft may be a simpler solution. > > =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2 > -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- > =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2 > -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- > =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2 > -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- > =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2 > -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- > =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2 > -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- > =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2 > -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- > =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2 > -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- > =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2 > -=C2-=C2-=C2- Ted=C2- > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Galin Hernandez" > Sent: Saturday=2C July 30=2C 2011 5:11:43 PM > Subject: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > > > All=3B > =C2- > I find that even with the VG's=2C I run out of up trim as I am approachin g to > land. If I want to approach at an IAS of less than 90Kts I have to have f u > ll up trim and hold some back pressure on the stick. I want to be able to t > rim hands off for at least 75KIAS and then=C2-add=C2-back pressure fo r > the flare. So I am thinking about making a modification to the tail and a m > wondering if any of you have done something similar. > =C2- > I am thinking of adding about 1 - 1 1/2" to the=C2-rear of the tail to in > clude the trim tab. Has=C2-anybody done or looked into doing this=C2- to > the standard tail? If so=2C how did you do it and what were the results? I a > dded a "drawing" of what I am contemplating. The gray parts are what I am t > hinking of adding. No funny remarks about the "drawing" since I am not a Pi > casso. :o) > =C2- > THANKS! > =C2- > Galin > =C2- > Horiz Stab Mod.JPG > > ________________________________ Message 4 ______________________________ _______ > > > Time: 05:59:00 PM PST US > From: Robert Reed > Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > > > ________________________________ Message 5 ______________________________ _______ > > > Time: 07:32:13 PM PST US > From: jerzy krasinski > Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > > I have extended the elevator by approximately 1.5". I have heard many com me > nts =0Athat this might be a bad idea making the plane too sensitive to the > elevator=2C =0Abut nothing like this has happened=2C the plane is very docile=2C > but the forces for =0Athe elerons and the elevator are now comparable.- > =0ANow=2C-I have much more effective elevator allowing me to hold the n ose > up longer =0Aon landing. In fact I am considering adding another inch t o th > e elevator.=0A=0AChecking the Weight and Balance is a good idea no ma tter i > f you are going to =0Aextend the elevator or not.=0A=0AJerzy=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A > ________________________________=0AFrom: "tmclam@comcast.net" st.net>=0ATo: kis-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sat=2C July 30=2C 2011 6 :34:26 PM > =0ASubject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod???=0A=0A=0AGalin/Before you ge t into any > surgery=2C accurately recheck your Weight and =0ABalance.If she is nose heav > y some Lead aft may be a simpler solution.=0A---------- > ------------------------- > ------------------------- > ------------------------- > ------------------------- > ------------------------- > ------------------------- > ------------------------- > ------=0A Ted-=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A=0A > From: "Galin Hernandez" =0ATo: kis-list@matronics.c om > =0ASent: Saturday=2C July 30=2C 2011 5:11:43 PM=0ASubject: KIS-List: Tail Mod?? > ?=0A=0A=0AAll=3B=0A=0AI find that even with the VG's=2C I run o ut of up trim as > I am approaching to =0Aland. If I want to approach at an IAS of less th an > 90Kts I have to have full up =0Atrim and hold some back pressure on the sti > ck. I want to be able to trim hands =0Aoff for at least 75KIAS and then -a > dd-back pressure for the flare. So I am =0Athinking about making a modi fi > cation to the tail and am wondering if any of you =0Ahave done somethin g si > milar.=0A=0AI am thinking of adding about 1 - 1 1/2" to the-rear of t he t > ail to include the =0Atrim tab. Has-anybody done or looked into doing t hi > s-to the standard tail? If =0Aso=2C how did you do it and what were the res > ults? I added a "drawing" of what I =0Aam contemplating. The gray parts are > what I am thinking of adding. No funny =0Aremarks about the "drawing" s inc > e I am not a Picasso. :o)=0A=0ATHANKS!=0A=0AGalin=0A > > ________________________________ Message 6 ______________________________ _______ > > > Time: 07:46:21 PM PST US > Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > From: Galin Hernandez > > THANKS for the quick reply. I did a complete W&B back when I first starte d > to tackle this issue. The airplane W&B is very well within the envelope > during all phases of flight. It is actually a tiny bit aft so I really do n't > want to move it any further aft than it already is. That is why I first > started with the VG's and they made a big difference. But it still needs a > bit more nose up authority at slow speeds. > > Jerzy=2C do you have VG's on your elevator or just the additional 1.5"? A lso=2C > did you extend the entire elevator to include the trim tab? > > Galin > > On Saturday=2C July 30=2C 2011=2C jerzy krasinski > wrote: > > I have extended the elevator by approximately 1.5". I have heard many > comments that this might be a bad idea making the plane too sensitive to the > elevator=2C but nothing like this has happened=2C the plane is very docil e=2C but > the forces for the elerons and the elevator are now comparable. > > Now=2C I have much more effective elevator allowing me to hold the nose up > longer on landing. In fact I am considering adding another inch to the > elevator. > > > > Checking the Weight and Balance is a good idea no matter if you are goi ng > to extend the elevator or not. > > > > Jerzy > > > > ________________________________ > > From: "tmclam@comcast.net" > > To: kis-list@matronics.com > > Sent: Sat=2C July 30=2C 2011 6:34:26 PM > > Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > > > > Galin/Before you get into any surgery=2C accurately recheck your Weight and > Balance.If she is nose heavy some Lead aft may be a simpler solution. > > > > > > > &nbs > p=3B Ted > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: "Galin Hernandez" > > To: kis-list@matronics.com > > Sent: Saturday=2C July 30=2C 2011 5:11:43 PM > > Subject: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > > > > All=3B > > > > I find that even with the VG's=2C I run out of up trim as I am approach ing > to land. If I want to approach at an IAS of less than 90Kts I have to hav e > full up trim and hold some back pressure on the stick. I want to be able to > trim hands off for at least 75KIAS and then add back pressure for the fla re. > So I am thinking about making a modification to the tail and am wondering if > any of you have done something similar. > > > > I am thinking of adding about 1 - 1 1/2" to the rear of the tail to > include the trim tab. Has anybody done or looked into doing this to the > standard tail? If so=2C how did you do it and what were the results? I ad ded a > "drawing" of what I am contemplating. The gray parts are what I am thinki ng > of adding. No funny remarks about the "drawing" since I am not a Picasso. > :o) > > > > THANKS! > > > > Galin > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 ______________________________ _______ > > > Time: 08:11:04 PM PST US > From: Robert Reed > Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > > > ________________________________ Message 8 ______________________________ _______ > > > Time: 09:14:43 PM PST US > From: Robert Reed > Subject: Re: KIS-List: Tail Mod??? > > > This is pissing me off. I have replied twice using my PC and both ended u p with > no message. I don't know what the problem is but it is really frustrating .. > > Galin: check on my website under the Tips & Tricks button for Elevator Ex tension > for two examples of exactly what you are proposing. Bill Shertz's mod sho ws > good detail of a solution to one issue regarding the additional counter b alance > weight. Al's use of carbon fiber would help reduce weight. > > By the way=2C I think I know someone in Big-D area that has some glasswor k experience > who could be bribed into helping. > > > Bob Reed > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jul 30=2C 2011=2C at 10:10 PM=2C Robert Reed wrot e: > > > > >================ > > > > et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List ttp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kis-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/KIS-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kis-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kis-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.