---------------------------------------------------------- KIS-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 07/09/12: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:37 AM - Re: IO-240 Starter (Keith.Miller@esa.int) 2. 04:21 AM - Re: Nose Wheel Torque (Mike and Michele Patten) 3. 05:38 AM - Re: Nose Wheel Torque (Galin Hernandez) 4. 05:54 AM - IO-240 Starter (Owen Baker) 5. 01:18 PM - Fw: Bolt (Galin Hernandez) 6. 02:29 PM - Re: Fw: Bolt (jerzy krasinski) 7. 04:18 PM - Re: Fw: Bolt (Galin Hernandez) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:37:52 AM PST US Subject: Re: KIS-List: IO-240 Starter From: Keith.Miller@esa.int OC, I had almost forgotten about the TCM starter fiasco. My recollection was that the 654046 was a total piece of junk , so much so, that in 97 or 98 they (TCM )replaced them free of charge with 655551 if anyone rang up and asked ( 655551 I think is also a TCM design ). Eventually they finally realised that they were useless at designing starters and recommended fitting the B&C starter BC320-1 ( which they gave a TCM part number 655957). and this is covered in SIL04-8 I still have the 655551 installed and its running OK ( 450hrs ) but if you have some news on this starter let me know . Keith |------------> | From: | |------------> >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |"F. Tim Yoder" | >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |------------> | To: | |------------> >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |------------> | Date: | |------------> >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |09/07/2012 01:18 | >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |------------> | Subject: | |------------> >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |Re: KIS-List: IO-240 Starter | >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |------------> | Sent by: | |------------> >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com | >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| No one can afford "cheap airplane parts"! :-) Tim ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Stearns To: kis-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2012 3:09 PM Subject: Re: KIS-List: IO-240 Starter I remember Rich having a problem with his starter and pulling it. Some balls from a bearing fell out as he was pulling it and he was never sure if any ended up in the engine. My dad always said... no such thing as cheap airplane parts. Scott On Jul 8, 2012, at 6:40 AM, "Owen Baker " wrote: 7/8/2012 Hello Tim, I was a bit surprised to read of your recent experience with a TCM provided starter for the IO-240 engine. I thought that all of those crappy TCM designed starters had long since failed and been purged from the field. That was a very ugly chapter in TCMs history when they tried to screw Bill Bainbridge of B&C by reverse engineering one of his starters when their original design proved to be a miserable failure. TCM was eventually forced to buy and install B&C starters at the factory on new engines being shipped. TCM agreed to pay for a B&C starter for my engine for me to install when I refused to accept their designed starter that had been shipped with my engine, IO-240 B9B Serial number 806236. If anyone else is still operating a TCM designed starter on their IO-240 (it takes some detail part number sleuthing to determine that) I strongly recommend switching to a B&C starter because the TCM designed starter can fail in a manner that will foul up the interior of the engine big expense and some danger. I have extensive postings on this subject in my files (and there are probably also some in the Matronics archives) if anyone is interested in reviewing that history. OC ==================================== Time: 09:31:00 PM PST US From: "F. Tim Yoder" Subject: KIS-List: IO-240 Starter FYI for those who have this engine or a light weight TCM starter. Circa 1997. My IO-240 came with a TCM starter, Part # 654046 E. It failed at 475 hours. I had been told by a TCM tech. that even though it had a Cont tag on it, it was really made by B&C. I called B&C and made arrangements to send it to them for repair. After they received it the called to advise me that it was not one of theirs but a knockoff that Cont. had made. B&C didn't think that Cont. would repair theirs anymore. I did not check with Cont. because I decided I wanted one of B&C's. They sent me a new one and my old one at no shipping charge. In a side by side comparison, the B&C starter is much better built. There was a dramatic improvement in prop rotation speed by the starter. Tim href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List"> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution"> http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List"> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c This message and any attachments are intended for the use of the addressee or addressees only. The unauthorised disclosure, use, dissemination or copying (either in whole or in part) of its content is not permitted. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Emails can be altered and their integrity cannot be guaranteed by the sender. Please consider the environment before printing this email. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:21:00 AM PST US From: "Mike and Michele Patten" Subject: RE: KIS-List: Nose Wheel Torque Galin, The nose gear bolt on my KIS TR1 which has 1200 hrs on it with this part still intact has a roll pin which extends completely through from one side to the other. In my opinion this would be best engineering practice, and can't see any reason why you would do otherwise. Regards, Mike. From: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Galin Hernandez Sent: Monday, 9 July 2012 1:57 PM Subject: KIS-List: Nose Wheel Torque Has anybody had problems while torquing the nose gear friction bolt? I sheared the pin holding the bolt and had to get a new bolt machined. But it doesn't seem logical that the pin holding the bolt doesn't go all the way through to the other side. Does anybody know if there is a reason why the pin doesn't go all the way through the nose gear or can I drill the nose gear so the pin holds in two places not just one? Also, is that a special pin or would any rolled steel pin work? Galin ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:38:07 AM PST US From: Galin Hernandez Subject: Re: KIS-List: Nose Wheel Torque Thanks Mike. I am going to make it so the pin extends completely from one side to the other. It just seems logical to me. Also, how much torque do you put on the bolt? I read to tighten it until it takes between 20-30 ft/lb to move the nose gear but how do you measure this without special equipment? I have a torque wrench so I can put a specific amount on the bolt. Galin On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 6:20 AM, Mike and Michele Patten < mikepapa@bigpond.com> wrote: > Galin,**** > > The nose gear bolt on my KIS TR1 which has 1200 hrs on it with this part > still intact has a roll pin which extends completely through from one sid e > to the other. In my opinion this would be best engineering practice, and > can=92t see any reason why you would do otherwise.**** > > ** ** > > Regards,**** > > Mike.**** > > ** ** > > *From:* owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Galin Hernandez > *Sent:* Monday, 9 July 2012 1:57 PM > *To:* kis-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* KIS-List: Nose Wheel Torque**** > > ** ** > > Has anybody had problems while torquing the nose gear friction bolt? I > sheared the pin holding the bolt and had to get a new bolt machined. But it > doesn't seem logical that the pin holding the bolt doesn't go all the way > through to the other side. Does anybody know if there is a reason why the > pin doesn't go all the way through the nose gear or can I drill the nose > gear so the pin holds in two places not just one? Also, is that a special > pin or would any rolled steel pin work?**** > > ** ** > > Galin**** > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List* > > ** > > ** > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > ** > > * * > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:54:45 AM PST US From: "Owen Baker " Subject: KIS-List: IO-240 Starter 7/9/2012 Hello Keith, You wrote: "I still have the 655551 installed and its running OK ( 450hrs ) but if you have some news on this starter let me know ." I have no specific recent news on failures of TCM designed starter part number 655551. Just the past poor history on the TCM designed starters in general and Tim's fairly recent failure of a TCM designed Part # 654046 E starter at 475 hours. (See his posting copied below.) Does that mean that you have 25 hours to go before your TCM designed starter also fails? -- I don't know. Considering the possible engine contamination of such a starter failure and the better performance of the B&C starter that Tim reported my inclination would be to replace the starter. OC ======================================================================= From: Keith.Miller@esa.int Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 3:37 AM Subject: Re: KIS-List: IO-240 Starter OC, I had almost forgotten about the TCM starter fiasco. My recollection was that the 654046 was a total piece of junk , so much so, that in 97 or 98 they (TCM )replaced them free of charge with 655551 if anyone rang up and asked ( 655551 I think is also a TCM design ). Eventually they finally realised that they were useless at designing starters and recommended fitting the B&C starter BC320-1 ( which they gave a TCM part number 655957). and this is covered in SIL04-8 I still have the 655551 installed and its running OK ( 450hrs ) but if you have some news on this starter let me know . Keith ================================================================================ On Jul 8, 2012, at 6:40 AM, "Owen Baker " wrote: 7/8/2012 Hello Tim, I was a bit surprised to read of your recent experience with a TCM provided starter for the IO-240 engine. I thought that all of those crappy TCM designed starters had long since failed and been purged from the field. That was a very ugly chapter in TCMs history when they tried to screw Bill Bainbridge of B&C by reverse engineering one of his starters when their original design proved to be a miserable failure. TCM was eventually forced to buy and install B&C starters at the factory on new engines being shipped. TCM agreed to pay for a B&C starter for my engine for me to install when I refused to accept their designed starter that had been shipped with my engine, IO-240 B9B Serial number 806236. If anyone else is still operating a TCM designed starter on their IO-240 (it takes some detail part number sleuthing to determine that) I strongly recommend switching to a B&C starter because the TCM designed starter can fail in a manner that will foul up the interior of the engine big expense and some danger. I have extensive postings on this subject in my files (and there are probably also some in the Matronics archives) if anyone is interested in reviewing that history. OC ==================================== Time: 09:31:00 PM PST US From: "F. Tim Yoder" Subject: KIS-List: IO-240 Starter FYI for those who have this engine or a light weight TCM starter. Circa 1997. My IO-240 came with a TCM starter, Part # 654046 E. It failed at 475 hours. I had been told by a TCM tech. that even though it had a Cont tag on it, it was really made by B&C. I called B&C and made arrangements to send it to them for repair. After they received it the called to advise me that it was not one of theirs but a knockoff that Cont. had made. B&C didn't think that Cont. would repair theirs anymore. I did not check with Cont. because I decided I wanted one of B&C's. They sent me a new one and my old one at no shipping charge. In a side by side comparison, the B&C starter is much better built. There was a dramatic improvement in prop rotation speed by the starter. Tim ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:18:16 PM PST US Subject: KIS-List: Fwd: Bolt From: Galin Hernandez ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: *HERNANDEZ, GALIN (IA)* Subject: Bolt Here is the =93bolt=94 I am talking about. I knda made a drawing of what I mean. **** ** ** *S/A Gal=EDn Hern=E1ndez*** CBP-Internal Affairs**** 602 Sawyer St., Suite 500**** Houston, TX 77007**** 713-868-7323 (w)**** 713-868-7301 (f)**** galin.hernandez@dhs.gov **** ** ** ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:29:04 PM PST US From: jerzy krasinski Subject: Re: KIS-List: Fwd: Bolt Galin,=0A=0AIt all depends if you stripped the thread in the front leg or n ot=0A.=0AIf not, I would just purchase identical threaded bolt and nuts =C2 -made of aviation =0Aquality 4130 steel from any of the aviation supply h ouses like Aircraft Spruce =0Aor similar, and install it there.=0AIn case o f problems with finding=C2- a bolt like that =C2-in a store, any machin ist =0Acan make it out of a 4130 blank. In fact Rich never delivered the bo lt in my kit =0Aso I machined it myself.=0AI can see that you used a set sc rew to immobilize the bolt. These have tendency =0Ato get loose and the bol t might get out. I used=C2-the strongest type of =C2-Loctite =0Abolt lo cking adhesive to immobilize the bolt. So far no problems=0A=0AIf the threa d is stripped you would have to rethread the hole in the =C2-leg to=C2- the =0A=C2-next bigger size thread.=0A=0ABy the way, the method of killin g shimmy of the front wheel by friction is =0Aalmost unworkable. You need f riction to kill shimmy, at the same time you need =0Agrease on the bearing of the fork. I do not know how can you prevent grease from =0Agetting on th e friction ring. Once you get grease on the friction ring you can =0Aforget the friction.=0AI had terrible problems with shimmy and finally I installe d oil filled shimmy =0Aarrester from a Cessna.=0A=0AJerzy=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A___ _____________________________=0AFrom: Galin Hernandez =0ATo: "kis-list@matronics.com" =0ASent: Mon, July 9, 2012 3:23:56 PM=0ASubject: KIS-List: Fwd: Bolt=0A=0A=0A=0A---------- For warded message ----------=0AFrom: HERNANDEZ, GALIN (IA) =0ADate: Monday, Ju ly 9, 2012=0ASubject: Bolt=0ATo: galinhdz@gmail.com=0A=0A=0A=0AHere is the =9Cbolt=9D I am talking about. I knda made a drawing of what I mean.=0A=C2-=0AS/A Gal=C3=ADn Hern=C3=A1ndez=0ACBP-Internal Affairs=0A602 Sawyer St., Suite 500=0AHouston, TX 77007=0A713-868-7323 (w)=0A713-868-730 1 (f)=0Agalin.hernandez@dhs.gov ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:18:07 PM PST US Subject: Re: KIS-List: Fwd: Bolt From: Galin Hernandez Is your front leg threaded? Mine is not so that is why it has a steel roll set pin in the top. As soon as I sheared the pin, the bolt fell right out. I had a machinist make another bolt for me but was wondering why the set pin does not extend out the other side. I wanted to make sure it was OK to drill a hole in the leg so the pin can have two points holding it instead of just one like it currently has. Galin On Monday, July 9, 2012, jerzy krasinski wrote: > Galin, > > It all depends if you stripped the thread in the front leg or not > . > If not, I would just purchase identical threaded bolt and nuts made of > aviation quality 4130 steel from any of the aviation supply houses like > Aircraft Spruce or similar, and install it there. > In case of problems with finding a bolt like that in a store, any > machinist can make it out of a 4130 blank. In fact Rich never delivered t he > bolt in my kit so I machined it myself. > I can see that you used a set screw to immobilize the bolt. These have > tendency to get loose and the bolt might get out. I used the strongest ty pe > of Loctite bolt locking adhesive to immobilize the bolt. So far no probl ems > > If the thread is stripped you would have to rethread the hole in the leg > to the next bigger size thread. > > By the way, the method of killing shimmy of the front wheel by friction i s > almost unworkable. You need friction to kill shimmy, at the same time you > need grease on the bearing of the fork. I do not know how can you prevent > grease from getting on the friction ring. Once you get grease on the > friction ring you can forget the friction. > I had terrible problems with shimmy and finally I installed oil filled > shimmy arrester from a Cessna. > > Jerzy > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Galin Hernandez 'galinhdz@gmail.com');>> > *To:* "kis-list@matronics.com 'kis-list@matronics.com');>" 'cvml', 'kis-list@matronics.com');>> > *Sent:* Mon, July 9, 2012 3:23:56 PM > *Subject:* KIS-List: Fwd: Bolt > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: *HERNANDEZ, GALIN (IA)* > Date: Monday, July 9, 2012 > Subject: Bolt > To: galinhdz@gmail.com > > > Here is the =93bolt=94 I am talking about. I knda made a drawing of what I > mean.**** > > ** ** > > *S/A Gal=EDn Hern=E1ndez*** > > CBP-Internal Affairs**** > > 602 Sawyer St., Suite 500**** > > Houston, TX 77007**** > > 713-868-7323 (w)**** > > 713-868-7301 (f)**** > > galin.hernandez@dhs.gov**** > > ** ** > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kis-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/KIS-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kis-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kis-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.