KIS-List Digest Archive

Tue 07/17/12


Total Messages Posted: 8



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 09:49 AM - Re: weights and balances (Scott Stearns)
     2. 11:23 AM - Re: weights and balances (Rob)
     3. 12:39 PM - Re: weights and balances (Scott Stearns)
     4. 01:52 PM - Re: weights and balances (Rob)
     5. 02:19 PM - Re: weights and balances (Scott Stearns)
     6. 06:44 PM - Re: weights and balances (F. Tim Yoder)
     7. 10:50 PM - Re: weights and balances (Larry David)
     8. 11:38 PM - Larry David (Graham Brighton)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 09:49:17 AM PST US
    From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: weights and balances
    =0A=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A From: "Flyinisfun@aol.com" <Flyinisfun@aol.com>=0ATo: kis-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Sunday, July 15 , 2012 6:57 PM=0ASubject: KIS-List: weights and balances=0A =0A=0A =0AI am re-weighing my two place KIS -1 after moving the batteries forward by =0A3 0 inches.- I feel I have been too near the rear-CG and =0Awanted-more room at the rear.- I would like to compare with you guys =0Athe followin g. =0A=0A1.- What are-your empty weights and-CG numbers?=0A=0AEmpty i s 835 lbs with a Oddessy 925 battery (24lbs), a parallel valve lycoming 360 , and a lot of carbon fiber bits..- Empty CG is 8.5 inches behind the win g LE. =0A=0A2.- Do you figure gross weight by using 170 lbs. per occupant or do =0Ayou use the actual weight of the-occupant?=0A=0AThe airlines no w assume 190 lbs per-passenger in summber and 195 lbs in winter.- We- legally-have to use actual weight when flying private airplanes.- How I wish I was 190 lbs.... =0A=0A3.- How much gas are you leaving home with two 200 lb. bodies aboard =0Aand no luggage? =0A=0A50 gallons.=0A-=0AChee =========


    Message 2


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    Time: 11:23:54 AM PST US
    From: Rob <punchy@frontiernet.net>
    Subject: Re: weights and balances
    Jesse, My KIS TR-1 is about 100 pounds heavier than yours with a LYC 0320 150 HP. How did you get that low of an empty weight with the 0360? I would be interested in your true air speed at 75% power cruise with that engine. Also, do you notice not much prop clearance from the ground? That is a concern of mine which I haven't fixed yet. Rob On 7/17/2012 9:48 AM, Scott Stearns wrote: > > *From:* "Flyinisfun@aol.com" <Flyinisfun@aol.com> > *To:* kis-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Sunday, July 15, 2012 6:57 PM > *Subject:* KIS-List: weights and balances > > I am re-weighing my two place KIS -1 after moving the batteries > forward by 30 inches. I feel I have been too near the rear CG and > wanted more room at the rear. I would like to compare with you guys > the following. > 1. What are your empty weights and CG numbers? > Empty is 835 lbs with a Oddessy 925 battery (24lbs), a parallel valve > lycoming 360, and a lot of carbon fiber bits.. Empty CG is 8.5 inches > behind the wing LE. > 2. Do you figure gross weight by using 170 lbs. per occupant or do > you use the actual weight of the occupant? > The airlines now assume 190 lbs per passenger in summber and 195 lbs > in winter. We legally have to use actual weight when flying private > airplanes. How I wish I was 190 lbs.... > 3. How much gas are you leaving home with two 200 lb. bodies aboard > and no luggage? > 50 gallons. > Cheers, > Scott > Jesse Wright > *http://ww==== > > * > > > * > > > *


    Message 3


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    Time: 12:39:20 PM PST US
    From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: weights and balances
    Hi Rob, I think you mean Scott rather than Jesse. I used a light weight starter and alternator, no vaccum system, capable but s imple panel. The wing, ailerons, flaps, cowl, fairings, and elevator are ca rbon fiber. I know I saved about 8 lbs on the cowl and about 15 lbs on the w ing skins since I weighed the factory parts and my parts. No wet layup poly ester parts, all prepreg. I never understood why Rich used wet layup for an y of the parts. Simple interior, but nice cushions. The tailwheel and spri ng are lighter than the nosegear. The 360 is about 30 lbs heavier than the 3 20. I use a 68x80 prince carbon prop and have plenty of ground clearance. I really need about 68x84. The taildragger main gear is taller than the nose gear. What prop do you have on your 320? What kind of cruise speed? The engine is 180 HP from the factory. My engine has 10:1 pistons, ported a nd flow matched heads, and electronic ignition and put out 220 HP on the te st cell. The added cost of these modifications is pretty small when buying a new engine. Wide open at 12500', which is about 75% of 180 HP, it does 190 KTAS but it is spinning 2900 rpm with the current prop. I cruise at 12500 p ulled back to 2700 rpm, leaned to peak EGT which is 8-8.5 gph at 175 KTAS. A t 75% of 220 HP i think it would do 200 KTAS at 6-7000' but that amounts to r unning the engine near 100% of rated power continuosly which I dont think is a good idea and the indicated airspeed would be pretty high and it would be using a lot of gas. The speeds are with RV-8 wheel pants, and custom gear leg fairings and tailw heel fairings. Those fairings all together are worth 15+ KTAS at 12500. I would highly recommend the 10:1 pistons if nothing else. It makes a big d ifference efficiency over the 8.5:1 stock pistons. Lycoming used 10:1 pisto ns in almost all their helicopter engines. If I did it again I think I would buy a low/mid time 320 and do a top overha ul with the 10:1 pistons, head porting and flow matching, ebay the mags and g et Pmags, ebay the carb and go to bendix fuel injection if it did not come w ith. It would put out about 190 HP, weigh 270 lbs, and get close to 0.4 sfc in cruise and cost $12-13K. That engine would be really hard to beat. Cheers, Scott On Jul 17, 2012, at 11:23 AM, Rob <punchy@frontiernet.net> wrote: > Jesse, > > My KIS TR-1 is about 100 pounds heavier than yours with a LYC 0320 150 HP. > > How did you get that low of an empty weight with the 0360? > > I would be interested in your true air speed at 75% power cruise with tha t engine. > > Also, do you notice not much prop clearance from the ground? That is a co ncern of mine which I haven't fixed yet. > > > Rob > > On 7/17/2012 9:48 AM, Scott Stearns wrote: >> >> From: "Flyinisfun@aol.com" <Flyinisfun@aol.com> >> To: kis-list@matronics.com >> Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 6:57 PM >> Subject: KIS-List: weights and balances >> >> I am re-weighing my two place KIS -1 after moving the batteries forward b y 30 inches. I feel I have been too near the rear CG and wanted more room a t the rear. I would like to compare with you guys the following. >> >> 1. What are your empty weights and CG numbers? >> >> Empty is 835 lbs with a Oddessy 925 battery (24lbs), a parallel valve lyc oming 360, and a lot of carbon fiber bits.. Empty CG is 8.5 inches behind t he wing LE. >> >> 2. Do you figure gross weight by using 170 lbs. per occupant or do you u se the actual weight of the occupant? >> >> The airlines now assume 190 lbs per passenger in summber and 195 lbs in w inter. We legally have to use actual weight when flying private airplanes. How I wish I was 190 lbs.... >> >> 3. How much gas are you leaving home with two 200 lb. bodies aboard and n o luggage? >> >> 50 gallons. >> >> Cheers, >> Scott >> >> Jesse Wright >> http://ww==== >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > > > > > >


    Message 4


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    Time: 01:52:50 PM PST US
    From: Rob <punchy@frontiernet.net>
    Subject: Re: weights and balances
    Scott, Sorry about the name mix up. I have an old wood prop that came with the plane. Not sure of the Mfg. but know it is not matched to the plane and engine for the best performance. I have one pmag on the impulse side and and older Jeff Rose electronic on the other side. I haven't had a chance to properly calculate the true airspeed but would think that it is somewhere around 175 to 185 MPH at 8500 MSL full throttle and averaging about 7.5 gal per hour cross country on a 2.5 hour flight. The engine is rated at 150 hp with the low pistion compressing ratio I believe in the 7.? to 1 area. It has about 470 hours since major over hall and about 350 hours on the airframe. Doesn't use much oil and compression in the mid 70's It is a great and economical plane for xcross country but I am 6' 1"" tall and 73 years so the getting in and out with the gull wing type door is not to my liking anymore, would like a slider to just swing my leg over and sit down. Thinking about going the RV7 or RV9 way. Rob On 7/17/2012 12:40 PM, Scott Stearns wrote: > Hi Rob, > > I think you mean Scott rather than Jesse. > > I used a light weight starter and alternator, no vaccum system, > capable but simple panel. The wing, ailerons, flaps, cowl, fairings, > and elevator are carbon fiber. I know I saved about 8 lbs on the cowl > and about 15 lbs on the wing skins since I weighed the factory parts > and my parts. No wet layup polyester parts, all prepreg. I never > understood why Rich used wet layup for any of the parts. Simple > interior, but nice cushions. The tailwheel and spring are lighter > than the nosegear. The 360 is about 30 lbs heavier than the 320. I > use a 68x80 prince carbon prop and have plenty of ground clearance. I > really need about 68x84. The taildragger main gear is taller than the > nosegear. > > What prop do you have on your 320? What kind of cruise speed? > > The engine is 180 HP from the factory. My engine has 10:1 pistons, > ported and flow matched heads, and electronic ignition and put out > 220 HP on the test cell. The added cost of these modifications is > pretty small when buying a new engine. Wide open at 12500', which is > about 75% of 180 HP, it does 190 KTAS but it is spinning 2900 rpm with > the current prop. I cruise at 12500 pulled back to 2700 rpm, leaned > to peak EGT which is 8-8.5 gph at 175 KTAS. At 75% of 220 HP i think > it would do 200 KTAS at 6-7000' but that amounts to running the engine > near 100% of rated power continuosly which I dont think is a good idea > and the indicated airspeed would be pretty high and it would be using > a lot of gas. > > The speeds are with RV-8 wheel pants, and custom gear leg fairings and > tailwheel fairings. Those fairings all together are worth 15+ KTAS at > 12500. > > I would highly recommend the 10:1 pistons if nothing else. It makes a > big difference efficiency over the 8.5:1 stock pistons. Lycoming used > 10:1 pistons in almost all their helicopter engines. > > If I did it again I think I would buy a low/mid time 320 and do a top > overhaul with the 10:1 pistons, head porting and flow matching, ebay > the mags and get Pmags, ebay the carb and go to bendix fuel injection > if it did not come with. It would put out about 190 HP, weigh 270 > lbs, and get close to 0.4 sfc in cruise and cost $12-13K. That engine > would be really hard to beat. > > Cheers, > Scott > > > On Jul 17, 2012, at 11:23 AM, Rob <punchy@frontiernet.net > <mailto:punchy@frontiernet.net>> wrote: > >> Jesse, >> >> My KIS TR-1 is about 100 pounds heavier than yours with a LYC 0320 >> 150 HP. >> >> How did you get that low of an empty weight with the 0360? >> >> I would be interested in your true air speed at 75% power cruise >> with that engine. >> >> Also, do you notice not much prop clearance from the ground? That is >> a concern of mine which I haven't fixed yet. >> >> >> Rob >> >> On 7/17/2012 9:48 AM, Scott Stearns wrote: >>> >>> *From:* "Flyinisfun@aol.com <mailto:Flyinisfun@aol.com>" >>> <Flyinisfun@aol.com <mailto:Flyinisfun@aol.com>> >>> *To:* kis-list@matronics.com <mailto:kis-list@matronics.com> >>> *Sent:* Sunday, July 15, 2012 6:57 PM >>> *Subject:* KIS-List: weights and balances >>> >>> I am re-weighing my two place KIS -1 after moving the batteries >>> forward by 30 inches. I feel I have been too near the rear CG and >>> wanted more room at the rear. I would like to compare with you guys >>> the following. >>> 1. What are your empty weights and CG numbers? >>> Empty is 835 lbs with a Oddessy 925 battery (24lbs), a parallel >>> valve lycoming 360, and a lot of carbon fiber bits.. Empty CG is >>> 8.5 inches behind the wing LE. >>> 2. Do you figure gross weight by using 170 lbs. per occupant or do >>> you use the actual weight of the occupant? >>> The airlines now assume 190 lbs per passenger in summber and 195 lbs >>> in winter. We legally have to use actual weight when flying private >>> airplanes. How I wish I was 190 lbs.... >>> 3. How much gas are you leaving home with two 200 lb. bodies aboard >>> and no luggage? >>> 50 gallons. >>> Cheers, >>> Scott >>> Jesse Wright >>> *http://ww==== >>> >>> * >>> >>> >>> * >>> >>> >>> * >> >> >> * >> >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> * > * > > > *


    Message 5


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    Time: 02:19:01 PM PST US
    From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: weights and balances
    Hi Rob, i am 38 and in pretty good shape and I am getting sick of the gull wing door s. My airplane will do 185 mph at 8500' at 6.5 gph. I think the difference i s mainly in the engine. Going from 7:1 to 10:1 compression (and expansion) w ill make a large improvement in how much power you get out of the fuel. For the price of an RV 7 or 9 you can get a nice 4 seat certified airplane. There are some really nice early bonanzas out there for $60-70k. They are r eally nice flying airplanes. There are some great deals out there right now . Scott On Jul 17, 2012, at 1:52 PM, Rob <punchy@frontiernet.net> wrote: > Scott, > > Sorry about the name mix up. I have an old wood prop that came with the p lane. Not sure of the Mfg. but know it is not matched to the plane and eng ine for the best performance. I have one pmag on the impulse side and and o lder > Jeff Rose electronic on the other side. I haven't had a chance to properl y calculate the true airspeed but would think that it is somewhere around 17 5 to 185 MPH at 8500 MSL full throttle and averaging about 7.5 gal per hour c ross country on > a 2.5 hour flight. The engine is rated at 150 hp with the low pistion comp ressing ratio I believe in the 7.? to 1 area. It has about 470 hours since m ajor over hall and about 350 hours on the airframe. Doesn't use much oil an d compression in the > mid 70's It is a great and economical plane for xcross country but I am 6 ' 1"" tall and 73 years so the getting in and out with the gull wing type do or is not to my liking anymore, would like a slider to just swing my leg ove r and sit down. Thinking about > going the RV7 or RV9 way. > > Rob > > On 7/17/2012 12:40 PM, Scott Stearns wrote: >> Hi Rob, >> >> I think you mean Scott rather than Jesse. >> >> I used a light weight starter and alternator, no vaccum system, capable b ut simple panel. The wing, ailerons, flaps, cowl, fairings, and elevator ar e carbon fiber. I know I saved about 8 lbs on the cowl and about 15 lbs on t he wing skins since I weighed the factory parts and my parts. No wet layup p olyester parts, all prepreg. I never understood why Rich used wet layup for any of the parts. Simple interior, but nice cushions. The tailwheel and s pring are lighter than the nosegear. The 360 is about 30 lbs heavier than t he 320. I use a 68x80 prince carbon prop and have plenty of ground clearance . I really need about 68x84. The taildragger main gear is taller than the n osegear. >> >> What prop do you have on your 320? What kind of cruise speed? >> >> The engine is 180 HP from the factory. My engine has 10:1 pistons, porte d and flow matched heads, and electronic ignition and put out 220 HP on the test cell. The added cost of these modifications is pretty small when buyi ng a new engine. Wide open at 12500', which is about 75% of 180 HP, it does 190 KTAS but it is spinning 2900 rpm with the current prop. I cruise at 12 500 pulled back to 2700 rpm, leaned to peak EGT which is 8-8.5 gph at 175 KT AS. At 75% of 220 HP i think it would do 200 KTAS at 6-7000' but that amoun ts to running the engine near 100% of rated power continuosly which I dont t hink is a good idea and the indicated airspeed would be pretty high and it w ould be using a lot of gas. >> >> The speeds are with RV-8 wheel pants, and custom gear leg fairings and ta ilwheel fairings. Those fairings all together are worth 15+ KTAS at 12500. >> >> I would highly recommend the 10:1 pistons if nothing else. It makes a bi g difference efficiency over the 8.5:1 stock pistons. Lycoming used 10:1 pi stons in almost all their helicopter engines. >> >> If I did it again I think I would buy a low/mid time 320 and do a top ove rhaul with the 10:1 pistons, head porting and flow matching, ebay the mags a nd get Pmags, ebay the carb and go to bendix fuel injection if it did not co me with. It would put out about 190 HP, weigh 270 lbs, and get close to 0.4 sfc in cruise and cost $12-13K. That engine would be really hard to beat. >> >> Cheers, >> Scott >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jul 17, 2012, at 11:23 AM, Rob <punchy@frontiernet.net> wrote: >> >>> Jesse, >>> >>> My KIS TR-1 is about 100 pounds heavier than yours with a LYC 0320 150 H P. >>> >>> How did you get that low of an empty weight with the 0360? >>> >>> I would be interested in your true air speed at 75% power cruise with t hat engine. >>> >>> Also, do you notice not much prop clearance from the ground? That is a c oncern of mine which I haven't fixed yet. >>> >>> >>> Rob >>> >>> On 7/17/2012 9:48 AM, Scott Stearns wrote: >>>> >>>> From: "Flyinisfun@aol.com" <Flyinisfun@aol.com> >>>> To: kis-list@matronics.com >>>> Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 6:57 PM >>>> Subject: KIS-List: weights and balances >>>> >>>> I am re-weighing my two place KIS -1 after moving the batteries forward by 30 inches. I feel I have been too near the rear CG and wanted more room at the rear. I would like to compare with you guys the following. >>>> >>>> 1. What are your empty weights and CG numbers? >>>> >>>> Empty is 835 lbs with a Oddessy 925 battery (24lbs), a parallel valve l ycoming 360, and a lot of carbon fiber bits.. Empty CG is 8.5 inches behind the wing LE. >>>> >>>> 2. Do you figure gross weight by using 170 lbs. per occupant or do you use the actual weight of the occupant? >>>> >>>> The airlines now assume 190 lbs per passenger in summber and 195 lbs in winter. We legally have to use actual weight when flying private airplanes . How I wish I was 190 lbs.... >>>> >>>> 3. How much gas are you leaving home with two 200 lb. bodies aboard an d no luggage? >>>> >>>> 50 gallons. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Scott >>>> >>>> Jesse Wright >>>> http://ww==== >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?KIS-List >>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ contribution >>> >> >> >> > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > > > > > >


    Message 6


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    Time: 06:44:52 PM PST US
    From: "F. Tim Yoder" <ftyoder@yoderbuilt.com>
    Subject: Re: weights and balances
    I remember one piece of advice on determining the maximum prop length. Let the air out of the nose wheel tire, simulate a flat, and subtract a little more. Vance had a saying something like, A prop should be as long as a prop can be. My Sensenich is 69", a friends TR-1 has a 65" prop. Tim ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob To: kis-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 11:23 AM Subject: Re: KIS-List: weights and balances Jesse, My KIS TR-1 is about 100 pounds heavier than yours with a LYC 0320 150 HP. How did you get that low of an empty weight with the 0360? I would be interested in your true air speed at 75% power cruise with that engine. Also, do you notice not much prop clearance from the ground? That is a concern of mine which I haven't fixed yet. Rob On 7/17/2012 9:48 AM, Scott Stearns wrote: From: "Flyinisfun@aol.com" <Flyinisfun@aol.com> To: kis-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 6:57 PM Subject: KIS-List: weights and balances I am re-weighing my two place KIS -1 after moving the batteries forward by 30 inches. I feel I have been too near the rear CG and wanted more room at the rear. I would like to compare with you guys the following. 1. What are your empty weights and CG numbers? Empty is 835 lbs with a Oddessy 925 battery (24lbs), a parallel valve lycoming 360, and a lot of carbon fiber bits.. Empty CG is 8.5 inches behind the wing LE. 2. Do you figure gross weight by using 170 lbs. per occupant or do you use the actual weight of the occupant? The airlines now assume 190 lbs per passenger in summber and 195 lbs in winter. We legally have to use actual weight when flying private airplanes. How I wish I was 190 lbs.... 3. How much gas are you leaving home with two 200 lb. bodies aboard and no luggage? 50 gallons. Cheers, Scott Jesse Wright http://ww====


    Message 7


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    Time: 10:50:37 PM PST US
    From: Larry David <lgdavid2@verizon.net>
    Subject: Re: weights and balances
    Tim, I remember Vance often saying: "Keep your prop as long as you can as long as you can." Larry On 7/17/2012 6:44 PM, F. Tim Yoder wrote: > I remember one piece of advice on determining the maximum prop length. > Let the air out of the nose wheel tire, simulate a flat, and subtract > a little more. Vance had a saying something like, A prop should be as > long as a prop can be. > My Sensenich is 69", a friends TR-1 has a 65" prop. > Tim > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Rob <mailto:punchy@frontiernet.net> > *To:* kis-list@matronics.com <mailto:kis-list@matronics.com> > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 17, 2012 11:23 AM > *Subject:* Re: KIS-List: weights and balances > > Jesse, > > My KIS TR-1 is about 100 pounds heavier than yours with a LYC 0320 > 150 HP. > > How did you get that low of an empty weight with the 0360? > > I would be interested in your true air speed at 75% power cruise > with that engine. > > Also, do you notice not much prop clearance from the ground? That > is a concern of mine which I haven't fixed yet. > > > Rob > > On 7/17/2012 9:48 AM, Scott Stearns wrote: >> >> *From:* "Flyinisfun@aol.com" <Flyinisfun@aol.com> >> *To:* kis-list@matronics.com >> *Sent:* Sunday, July 15, 2012 6:57 PM >> *Subject:* KIS-List: weights and balances >> >> I am re-weighing my two place KIS -1 after moving the batteries >> forward by 30 inches. I feel I have been too near the rear CG >> and wanted more room at the rear. I would like to compare with >> you guys the following. >> 1. What are your empty weights and CG numbers? >> Empty is 835 lbs with a Oddessy 925 battery (24lbs), a parallel >> valve lycoming 360, and a lot of carbon fiber bits.. Empty CG is >> 8.5 inches behind the wing LE. >> 2. Do you figure gross weight by using 170 lbs. per occupant or >> do you use the actual weight of the occupant? >> The airlines now assume 190 lbs per passenger in summber and 195 >> lbs in winter. We legally have to use actual weight when flying >> private airplanes. How I wish I was 190 lbs.... >> 3. How much gas are you leaving home with two 200 lb. bodies >> aboard and no luggage? >> 50 gallons. >> Cheers, >> Scott >> Jesse Wright >> *http://ww==== >> >> * >> >> >> * >> >> >> * > > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c > * > > * > > > *


    Message 8


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    Time: 11:38:04 PM PST US
    From: "Graham Brighton" <gbrighton@skymesh.com.au>
    Subject: Larry David
    G'Day Again Larry, Got ur off list SoCal message ....and mailed u back ...did u get it ..or maybe it went through to the.. Junk Mail .. or or !?? Cheers, Graham Brighton . From: Larry David Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 3:50 PM Subject: Re: KIS-List: weights and balances Tim, I remember Vance often saying: "Keep your prop as long as you can as long as you can." Larry http://ww==== href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics .com/Navigator?KIS-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c




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