KIS-List Digest Archive

Sun 08/12/12


Total Messages Posted: 4



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 12:07 AM - Elevator bob weight (Scott Stearns)
     2. 05:04 AM - Re: Sanding, sanding, some more sanding and so on. (ALFRED ROSA)
     3. 05:21 AM - Re: KIS-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 08/11/12 (Kevin Alderman)
     4. 05:29 AM - Re: Sanding, sanding, some more sanding and so on. (Owen Baker)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 12:07:04 AM PST US
    From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Elevator bob weight
    Hello all,=0A-=0ADuring my flight out to Oshkosh I noticed that whenever I was in turbulence the stick would seem to move to amplify the turbulence in pitch.- If I hit an "up" bump I could feel the stick move back and amp lify the bump and the same for a "down" bump.--=0A-=0AI think this is due to the-factory control system having a negative bob weight effect be cause of the weight of the control tubes.- I added the bob weight shown i n the picture and in seems to have smoothed out the pitch response to turbu lence-quite a bit.- I still need to fly with it more, but it seems to b e a significant improvement.- It added-a small amount of-"stick force per G" at higher speeds, but is not noticable at low speed or landing.- It has about 0.8 lbs on it right now and I am going to make a longer arm an d maybe go to 1 lb.=0A-=0AAlso you can see that I significantly reduced t he gear ratio of the control tubes during construction.- The forward-bo lt for the bob wieght arm is in the hole that was the factory control tube attach hole.- =0A-=0AScott


    Message 2


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    Time: 05:04:40 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Sanding, sanding, some more sanding and so on.
    From: ALFRED ROSA <fredorosa@gmail.com>
    Bob, I will be getting this portable garage to erect in my yard for painting the plane. http://www.portablegaragedepot.com/index.cfm?sku=SZ102810H&catid=66


    Message 3


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    Time: 05:21:05 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: KIS-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 08/11/12
    From: Kevin Alderman <alderman.kevin0610@gmail.com>
    I like Awlgrip- the same paint I use for our ocean going fiberglass boats. Awl Grip can be sprayed or rolled on and brush tipped, is a 2 part urethane and is virtually indestructable. Even battery acid wont hurt it. It takes a few tries to get the roll and tip thing down pat- the best thing to do is to practice. They also have an epoxy high build primer that is easy to apply and easy to sand. It is also a 2 part system. It can be sprayed or brushed. I painted a 53 foot boat with 2 gallons of color and 3 units of primer. For my Wheeler Express I will get one kit of primer which is 2 gallons total product, and one gallon of paint which will be 1.5 gallons with the hardener. You could get 2 quarts and have enough paint easily, but the 2 quarts will cost almost as much as a gallon. Seal it up and you will have wheel pants touch up paint for many years. Kevin Alderman On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 2:59 AM, KIS-List Digest Server < kis-list@matronics.com> wrote: > * > > ================================================= > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive > ================================================= > > Today's complete KIS-List Digest can also be found in either of the > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes > and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version > of the KIS-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor > such as Notepad or with a web browser. > > HTML Version: > > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 12-08-11&Archive=KIS > > Text Version: > > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 12-08-11&Archive=KIS > > > =============================================== > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive > =============================================== > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > KIS-List Digest Archive > --- > Total Messages Posted Sat 08/11/12: 3 > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > Today's Message Index: > ---------------------- > > 1. 05:18 AM - Re: Sanding, sanding, some more sanding and so on. > (ALFRED ROSA) > 2. 08:10 PM - Re: Sanding, sanding, some more sanding and so on. > (Robert Reed) > 3. 11:31 PM - Re: Sanding, sanding, some more sanding and so on. > (Scott Stearns) > > > ________________________________ Message 1 > _____________________________________ > > > Time: 05:18:17 AM PST US > Subject: Re: KIS-List: Sanding, sanding, some more sanding and so on. > From: ALFRED ROSA <fredorosa@gmail.com> > > What primer are you using and what top coat paint? I've been rolling on > UV Smooth Prime (Polyfiber) and like the way it fills and sands. I'm > planning on a water base top coat by Polyfiber also. > > Al > > ________________________________ Message 2 > _____________________________________ > > > Time: 08:10:09 PM PST US > From: Robert Reed <robertr237@att.net> > Subject: Re: KIS-List: Sanding, sanding, some more sanding and so on. > > Al,=0A=0AI looked at using UV Smooth Prime and the PolyFiber topcoat, the S > tewart System, =0Aand System Three Marine Paint system.- The UV Smooth Pr > ime looked real good for =0Aa primer but I found too many negatives on the > PolyFiber for composites that I =0Abacked off on using it.- I also have t > he issue now of not having any available =0Afacilities for spray painting s > o will be forced to find an alternate way to =0Afinish.- The Steward syst > em definately didn't recomend anything but HVLP spray.- =0A=0A=0AI picked > the System Three system because it fully supported roll and tip or =0Aspra > ying.- I am using SilverTip Yacht Primer.- It-is a waterborne, two-pa > rt =0Aepoxy coating specifically formulated as a tough, below-the-waterline > primer for =0Amarine topcoats.-- I figured if it would work for marine > applications it should =0Awork well for aircraft use as well.- The prime > r does not contain a UV absorber.- =0AIt does go on easily with a roller > and flows out nicely if you make sure and =0Akeep your area within temperat > ure range of 65-80 degrees with HIGH 80% =0Ahumidity.- I have my shop air > conditioned and used wet towels, sprayed the floor =0Aand put a wet towel o > ver the airconditioner.- It raised the humidity level and =0Athe primer s > pread out perfectly.- If you don't do this, the primer dries so =0Aquickl > y that it will leave marks from the brush tip.=0A=0AFor the color coats I w > ill be useing System Three WR-LPU Topcoat.- It-is a =0Atwo-part linear > polyurethane coating specifically formulated for maximum =0Aperformance and > ease of use. Available in 12 standard colors as well as clear =0Asatin and > high gloss. When cured it is moisture, solvent and fuel resistant. =0AWR-L > PU contains UV absorbers and will not yellow or lose gloss for years, =0Ade > pending on exposure.- (Portions copied from lit)- Both primer and top c > oat are =0Awater based.- The topcoat can use a crosslinker to produce a s > uper hard finish.- =0AThinning uses distilled water and the top coat does > not require mixing with =0Aother than water unless crosslinker is added wh > ich is only a few drops per =0Aounce.- The top color coat paint appears t > o be much thinner than the primer and =0Awith recommend water addition it s > hould flow out much better than the primer.- I =0Awill be doing some test > parts in the next few weeks to see how it flows out in =0Avarious conditio > ns.- =0A=0A=0AMy plan is to use the roll and tip to apply two coats of pr > imer.- Sand the first =0Atwo coats to make sure of filling any minor low > spots.- Follow with two =0Aadditional primer coats that will be sanded fo > r top coat preparation.- I will =0Athen add three coats of color top coat > s with crosslinker added again using roll =0Aand tip.- I will let the col > or coats fully cure and then perform a color sanding =0Ato remove any imper > fectioins in the surface.- Finally, on those parts that I can =0Aget to m > y shop for finish I will followup with two to three coats of clear high =0A > gloss with the crosslinker again added.- I don't expect to have to finish > sand =0Aand buff the clear but will if needed.- The fuselage is going to > be a bigger =0Aproblem since it is at the hangar and can't be inclosed and > protected for =0Apainting.- I also will have little control over dust an > d humidity issues.- The =0Aplan...wait for a warm high humidity rainy wee > k and spend a few days of misery =0Atrying to get the paint on.- That wil > l not come before late fall or early next =0Aspring.- Dallas is just too > darn dry.=0A=0AFinally, I know this is NOT the best way to finish my plane. > - That is a given =0Abut there are no paint facilities on my airport and > the airport forbids painting =0A(spray) in the hangars.- Can't say I blam > e them.- Probably wouldn't make much =0Adifference if they did, the elect > rical available to my bay won't even start my =0Acompressor.- So my optio > ns are limited as are my funds for paying someone to put =0Aon a multi-thou > sand dollar paint job.- It is both labor and time intensive but =0Ahopefu > lly it will produce a good finish.- It won't win any awards but shouldn't > =0Amake me hide my head in shame either.=0A=0ABob=0A=0A=0A=0A_____________ > ___________________=0AFrom: ALFRED ROSA <fredorosa@gmail.com>=0ATo: > kis-lis > t@matronics.com=0ASent: Sat, August 11, 2012 7:18:24 AM=0ASubject: Re: > KIS- > List: Sanding, sanding, some more sanding and so on.=0A=0AWhat primer are y > ou using and what top coat paint? I've been rolling on UV =0ASmooth Prime ( > Polyfiber) and like the way it fills and sands. I'm planning on a =0Awater > ==== =0A > > ________________________________ Message 3 > _____________________________________ > > > Time: 11:31:11 PM PST US > From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: KIS-List: Sanding, sanding, some more sanding and so on. > > I primed and painted-my airplane outside.- My airport is also 100% no s > praying in hangars, but they did not care about outside.- I used the UV s > mooth prime with a roller initally, expensive waste of time.- I-sprayed > auto body high build primer and painted with PPG Delfleet with a $15 harbo > r freight gun.- The finish had a lot of orange peel, but remarkably littl > e dust/dirt.- I wetsanded and buffed the paint and it looks great.- I w > ould prime/paint outside again for sure.- I would-not try to-paint th > e whole plane at once, but spilt it up into wing, fuselage, and-everythin > g else on different days.-=0A-=0AScott=0A =0A=0A_______________________ > _________=0A From: Robert Reed <robertr237@att.net>=0ATo: > kis-list@matronic > s.com =0ASent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 8:09 PM=0ASubject: Re: KIS-List: > S > anding, sanding, some more sanding and so on.=0A =0A=0AAl, =0A=0AI looked > at using UV Smooth Prime and the PolyFiber topcoat, the Stewart System, and > System Three Marine Paint system.- The UV Smooth Prime looked real good > for a primer but I found too many negatives on the PolyFiber for composites > that I backed off on using it.- I also have the issue now of not having > any available facilities for spray painting so will be forced to find an al > ternate way to finish.- The Steward system definately didn't recomend any > thing but HVLP spray.- =0A=0AI picked the System Three system because it > fully supported roll and tip or spraying.- I am using SilverTip Yacht Pr > imer.- It-is a waterborne, two-part epoxy coating specifically formulat > ed as a tough, below-the-waterline primer for marine topcoats.-- I figu > red if it would work for marine applications it should work well for aircra > ft use as well.- The primer does not contain a UV absorber.- It does go > on easily with a roller and flows out nicely if you make sure and keep you > r area within temperature range of 65-80 degrees with HIGH 80% humidity.- > I have my shop airconditioned and used wet towels, sprayed the floor and p > ut a wet towel over the airconditioner.- It raised the humidity level and > the primer spread out perfectly.- If you don't do this, the primer dries > so quickly that it will leave marks from the brush tip. =0A=0AFor the colo > r coats I will be useing System Three WR-LPU Topcoat.- It-is a two-part > linear polyurethane coating specifically formulated for maximum performanc > e and ease of use. Available in 12 standard colors as well as clear satin a > nd high gloss. When cured it is moisture, solvent and fuel resistant. WR-LP > U contains UV absorbers and will not yellow or lose gloss for years, depend > ing on exposure.- (Portions copied from lit)- Both primer and top coat > are water based.- The topcoat can use a crosslinker to produce a super ha > rd finish.- Thinning uses distilled water and the top coat does not requi > re mixing with other than water unless crosslinker is added which is only a > few drops per ounce.- The top color coat paint appears to be much thinne > r than the primer and with recommend water addition it should flow out much > better than the primer.- I will be doing some test parts in the next few > weeks to see how it flows out in various conditions.- =0A =0AMy plan is > to use the roll and tip to apply two coats of primer.- Sand the first two > coats to make sure of filling any minor low spots.- Follow with two addi > tional primer coats that will be sanded for top coat preparation.- I will > then add three coats of color top coats with crosslinker added again using > roll and tip.- I will let the color coats fully cure and then perform a > color sanding to remove any imperfectioins in the surface.- Finally, on t > hose parts that I can get to my shop for finish I will followup with two to > three coats of clear high gloss with the crosslinker again added.- I don > 't expect to have to finish sand and buff the clear but will if needed.- > The fuselage is going to be a bigger problem since it is at the hangar and > can't be inclosed and protected for painting.- I also will have little co > ntrol over dust and humidity issues.- The plan...wait for a warm high hum > idity rainy week and spend a few days of misery trying to get the > paint on.- That will not come before late fall or early next spring.- > Dallas is just too darn dry. =0A=0AFinally, I know this is NOT the best way > to finish my plane.- That is a given but there are no paint facilities o > n my airport and the airport forbids painting (spray) in the hangars.- Ca > n't say I blame them.- Probably wouldn't make much difference if they did > , the electrical available to my bay won't even start my compressor.- So > my options are limited as are my funds for paying someone to put on a multi > -thousand dollar paint job.- It is both labor and time intensive but hope > fully it will produce a good finish.- It won't win any awards but shouldn > 't make me hide my head in shame either. =0A=0ABob =0A=0A=0A=0A____________ > ____________________=0A From: ALFRED ROSA <fredorosa@gmail.com>=0ATo: > kis-l > ist@matronics.com=0ASent: Sat, August 11, 2012 7:18:24 AM=0ASubject: Re: > KI > S-List: Sanding, sanding, some more sanding and so on.=0A=0AWhat primer are > you using and what top coat paint? I've been rolling on UV Smooth Prime (P > olyfiber) and like the way it fills and sands. I'm planning on a water base > top coat by Polyfiber also. =0A =0AAl=0A=0A=0A=0Ahttp:===== > ============= > >


    Message 4


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    Time: 05:29:09 AM PST US
    From: "Owen Baker " <bakerocb@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Sanding, sanding, some more sanding and so on.
    8/12/2012 Hello Robert, You wrote: 1) =9CThe primer does not contain a UV absorber.=9D and =9CWhen cured it is moisture, solvent and fuel resistant. WR-LPU contains UV absorbers and will not yellow or lose gloss for years, depending on exposure. =9C My understanding of UV protection for the resin used in the fiberglass structure underlying the painted surface of our airplanes is that there are two methods available: blockage and chemical absorption. The down side of chemical absorption is that exposure to UV causes the chemicals in the chemical absorption method to be consumed or modified over time so that eventually UV protection is no longer provided to the underlying structure. The blockage method provides permanent UV protection as long as the covering containing the blockage material is not cracked or penetrated. There are three materials commonly used in the blockage method: aluminum powder, carbon black, and mica chips (UV Smooth Prime). I think that the mica chips in UV Smooth Prime provides the best (least messy and lightest) protection. However I would not depend upon UV Smooth Prime to provide the the long term priming filler needed to prevent eventual showing of the fiberglass fabric weave pattern through the paint surface. I would apply one or two coats of UV Smooth Prime for the mica UV blockage protection that it would provide, sand it smooth, and then apply a good quality primer compatible with the top coating method that I was going to use. 'O C' Baker says "The best investment you can make is the effort to gather and understand information." ============= From: Robert Reed Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 11:09 PM Subject: Re: KIS-List: Sanding, sanding, some more sanding and so on. Al, I looked at using UV Smooth Prime and the PolyFiber topcoat, the Stewart System, and System Three Marine Paint system. The UV Smooth Prime looked real good for a primer but I found too many negatives on the PolyFiber for composites that I backed off on using it. I also have the issue now of not having any available facilities for spray painting so will be forced to find an alternate way to finish. The Steward system definately didn't recomend anything but HVLP spray. I picked the System Three system because it fully supported roll and tip or spraying. I am using SilverTip Yacht Primer. It is a waterborne, two-part epoxy coating specifically formulated as a tough, below-the-waterline primer for marine topcoats. I figured if it would work for marine applications it should work well for aircraft use as well. The primer does not contain a UV absorber. It does go on easily with a roller and flows out nicely if you make sure and keep your area within temperature range of 65-80 degrees with HIGH 80% humidity. I have my shop airconditioned and used wet towels, sprayed the floor and put a wet towel over the airconditioner. It raised the humidity level and the primer spread out perfectly. If you don't do this, the primer dries so quickly that it will leave marks from the brush tip. For the color coats I will be useing System Three WR-LPU Topcoat. It is a two-part linear polyurethane coating specifically formulated for maximum performance and ease of use. Available in 12 standard colors as well as clear satin and high gloss. When cured it is moisture, solvent and fuel resistant. WR-LPU contains UV absorbers and will not yellow or lose gloss for years, depending on exposure. (Portions copied from lit) Both primer and top coat are water based. The topcoat can use a crosslinker to produce a super hard finish. Thinning uses distilled water and the top coat does not require mixing with other than water unless crosslinker is added which is only a few drops per ounce. The top color coat paint appears to be much thinner than the primer and with recommend water addition it should flow out much better than the primer. I will be doing some test parts in the next few weeks to see how it flows out in various conditions. My plan is to use the roll and tip to apply two coats of primer. Sand the first two coats to make sure of filling any minor low spots. Follow with two additional primer coats that will be sanded for top coat preparation. I will then add three coats of color top coats with crosslinker added again using roll and tip. I will let the color coats fully cure and then perform a color sanding to remove any imperfectioins in the surface. Finally, on those parts that I can get to my shop for finish I will followup with two to three coats of clear high gloss with the crosslinker again added. I don't expect to have to finish sand and buff the clear but will if needed. The fuselage is going to be a bigger problem since it is at the hangar and can't be inclosed and protected for painting. I also will have little control over dust and humidity issues. The plan...wait for a warm high humidity rainy week and spend a few days of misery trying to get the paint on. That will not come before late fall or early next spring. Dallas is just too darn dry. Finally, I know this is NOT the best way to finish my plane. That is a given but there are no paint facilities on my airport and the airport forbids painting (spray) in the hangars. Can't say I blame them. Probably wouldn't make much difference if they did, the electrical available to my bay won't even start my compressor. So my options are limited as are my funds for paying someone to put on a multi-thousand dollar paint job. It is both labor and time intensive but hopefully it will produce a good finish. It won't win any awards but shouldn't make me hide my head in shame either. Bob




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