KIS-List Digest Archive

Thu 11/29/12


Total Messages Posted: 12



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     0. 10:20 AM - Just Two Days Left! - Still Behind... (Matt Dralle)
     1. 10:34 AM - Landing the KIS TR-1 (Owen Baker)
     2. 11:16 AM - Re: Landing the KIS TR-1 with VG's (Flyinisfun@aol.com)
     3. 11:41 AM - Re: Landing the KIS TR-1 (F. Tim Yoder)
     4. 11:59 AM - Re: Landing the KIS TR-1 (Scott Stearns)
     5. 12:04 PM - Re: Landing the KIS TR-1 (Randy Ott)
     6. 12:57 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (Bob and Kathy)
     7. 01:36 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (F. Tim Yoder)
     8. 05:52 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (Scott Stearns)
     9. 06:41 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (F. Tim Yoder)
    10. 07:15 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (Galin Hernandez)
    11. 09:28 PM - Re: Landing the KIS TR-1 (Flyinisfun@aol.com)
 
 
 


Message 0


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    Time: 10:20:39 AM PST US
    From: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
    Subject: Just Two Days Left! - Still Behind...
    Dear Listers, There are just two more days left in this years List Fund Raiser. Over the last couple of weeks I have received some more really nice comments from members on what the Lists have meant to them. I have included a few more of them below. Please read over the comments and ponder on your own feelings about the Lists and the support and camaraderie you have found here. We are still behind last year in terms of the number of contributions. I really want to keep providing these services to the homebuilt community, but it take resources. Since there's no advertising budget or deep pockets to keep the operation a float, its solely your generosity during the Fund Raiser that keeps things going. Please make a Contribution today. If you've been putting off showing your support for the Lists, now is the time to do it! Make a contribution with a Credit Card or though PayPal at that Matronics Contribution web site: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Or, drop a check in the mail: Matronics / Matt Dralle 581 Jeannie Way Livermore, CA 94550 Thank you in advance for your support! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ==================== A Few List Member Comments ===================== I have been flying my Pietenpol for a month now and am enjoying the fruits of ten hard years of work. I seriously doubt it would ever have been finished but for the help, encouragement and friendships I've received and made through the Pietenpol list. Douwe B Hey-Long time subscriber, zero-time contributor. Just a note of thanks. This is first time I have the resources to contribute. Thanks for carrying a lightweight for years and a special thanks for your time and effort. Billy R My 601 hd is flying with the help with the listers. Noel G A very useful facility. Graeme B ..great site! Robert C Great Pietenpol site! Don Y Not active but always interested in keeping up. Enjoy when I can. Richard R Dave and Tim from Aircrafters just want to reiterate our thanks for hosting the lists. Tim F. I don't have a lot to give at this time of year, but I hope my contribution helps none the less. I really enjoy the message board. Mark C Thanks to your continued work on maintaining these lists. Ralph C The lists and the various contributors have been a great help while I was building and also now that I'm flying. Albert G Very helpful tools for the homebuilder. Vaughn T We appreciate your great help! Richard H Many of our customers have expressed to us that you provide them with an invaluable service - and we agree! Bill B I Fly a Quicksilver GT400 but love to read what the Kolb boys have to say and it was on your list that I found out about the Yamaha product Ring Free,, now called engine med, that shit works.. no carbon in my rings or any to speak of with the use of the Yamaha product with a premix 503 with over 300 hrs of use.. thanks to your Kolb bulletin board. Robert B You are providing a valuable service that helps a lot of people through information sharing. When I built my Pietenpol over 40 years ago we were largely on our own, working without a resource like this list. Graham H Thanks for the opportunity to link us all, keep the good work! Peter B


    Message 1


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    Time: 10:34:40 AM PST US
    From: "Owen Baker " <bakerocb@cox.net>
    Subject: Landing the KIS TR-1
    11/29/2012 Hello Jesse, You wrote: Questions: 1) =9CI can control it and hold it off for the first time until it sets down very gentle.=9D When you say =9Chold it off=9D are you talking about the entire plane, that is, holding the main gear off or just holding the nose wheel off after the mains touch down? 2) =9CI've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the tail.=9D It takes a really nose high attitude while in contact with the runway to drag the bottom of the rudder. A) Was this rudder contact just after a hard touchdown or while rolling out a bit? B) What were you trying to achieve with that nose high attitude -- A slow touch down and a short roll out? C) Where did you have the engine power set when you were trying the slower touch downs prior to installing the VG=99s? D) Where do you keep the engine power now during the flare? My Comments: I have come to the conclusion that the KIS TR-1 as originally configured, is just not a short field, slow touch down airplane. The technique that I have found that works the best is: a) Keep some engine power on (1200 =93 1300 rpm) until in ground effect just inches from the main gear touching down. b) Keep the airspeed over the end of the runway at between 75 and 80 knots indicated. c) Don=99t raise the nose above the far end of the runway or the horizon or you will lose track of where you are both laterally and above the runway =93 this can lead to a harsh touchdown. The airplane must be flown visually all the way to touch down of the main gear =93 =9Cwings level and hope=9D will not work. d) Forget about holding the nose gear off after touch down of the mains. It can be done, but not consistently and trying to achieve that will usually lose track of where you are in relation to the runway (see c above). e) I think a single vortex generator on each side of the fuselage nose can be of help (see the present versions on the Cirrus airplanes), but my experimentation is ongoing. OC === Time: 09:24:18 PM PST US From: Flyinisfun@aol.com Subject: KIS-List: Vortex Generators Hi Kis Gang, I have had trouble as many of you have at landing the two place Kis. I have had to cross the fence at about 80 mph indicated with a touch down around 75. I've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the tail. I touched the rudder and sanded about 1/2" off the bottom of it and am lucky that was all. Anyway, I put VG's on the bottom side of the horizontal stabilizer, which did wonders and now on the wing. For the first time, when I put the flaps down the nose pitches down. I am crossing the fence at about 75 mph with a true touch down at 65. I can control it and hold it off for the first time until it sets down very gentle. I know these things have been cursed but I will not fly again without them. It has changed the whole complexion of this machine. I feel that at last I have a flying machine. Any comments from you? Jesse Wright


    Message 2


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    Time: 11:16:15 AM PST US
    From: Flyinisfun@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Landing the KIS TR-1 with VG's
    In a message dated 11/29/2012 6:23:27 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, bakerocb@cox.net writes: O.C. Good questions which gives me the opportunity to explain further. Please see my comments to each of your questions or comments. Jesse 11/29/2012 Hello Jesse, You wrote: Questions: 1) =9CI can control it and hold it off for the first time until it s ets down very gentle.=9D When you say =9Chold it off=9D are you talking about the entir e plane, that is, holding the main gear off or just holding the nose wheel off after th e mains touch down? With one notch of flaps at idle, I can now hold the complete airplane about two feet off the runway and let it settle gently - touch it down muc h like a Cessna. It is not nose high but is still creating lift on the wing s. I am amazed! I can easly pull off the 10,000 ft. runway at Centennial, at the second turn off which is about 3000 ft. 2) =9CI've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the tail. =9D It takes a really nose high attitude while in contact with the runway to drag the bottom of the rudder. I have normally landed as you described. Holding it level across the fence, decrease power from about 1200 rpm with one notch of flaps. The ti me I tried to land slower I raised the nose only to realize I was loosing it. The nose raised to a very dangerous point while trying to save it. The ta il touched the runway before the mains touched, rocked over on it's nose wheel and then back on the mains and landed. I felt I was very fortunate to walk away (I've repaired the bottom of the rudder since.) The wings had totally lose any lift. A) Was this rudder contact just after a hard touchdown or while rolling out a bit? B) What were you trying to achieve with that nose high attitude -- A slow touch down and a short roll out? C) Where did you have the engine power set when you were trying the slower touch downs prior to installing the VG=99s? I had pulled back to around 900 rpm. D) Where do you keep the engine power now during the flare? I now play the rpm, bringing it back to complete idle after I get lined up and holding a constant descent. I am totally to idle in ground effect before touchdown. (I definitely know now when I'm in ground effect. Befo re I flew through ground effect with about 1200 rpm, planted it on. After I learned how to do this and never bounced it or let the nose get high again , but leveled it off, controlled it with power and waited for it to touch. At some point before touch down I always felt like I was a passenger.) Now, when just above the runway, if I nudge the stick back, the nose will raise but with equal amount of forward stick it will re-establish the descent as set up before and I can hold it there. Someone else has got to check me out on this and see how it reacts on their plane. I can believe there is lift created where there was little or none before. As I said in my earlier blurb that there is now much larger amount of resistance to pull in flaps, where as not before and the nose wants to pit ch down as it did not do before. That indicates to me there is lift that was not present before. It's like putting a different wing on this thing. I've got to do some more maneuver at altitude but I don't think I would be afraid to dead stick this thing with an engine out anywhere near as I would have been before. I've got to full stall straight ahead and see wha t happens. Before It was a "heart in throat" maneuver. Mine dropped like a rock. I never did that but once. I'm afraid of a secondary stall pulling out, it is so clean. All flying to this point has been by myself. I am now in the process of getting some weight in the right seat and see if that changes any thing. Go on line and read what the suppliers of these things say and comments by others. This could be a real safety factor for our community. Jesse My Comments: I have come to the conclusion that the KIS TR-1 as originally configured, is just not a short field, slow touch down airplane. The technique that I have found that works the best is: a) Keep some engine power on (1200 =93 1300 rpm) until in ground eff ect just inches from the main gear touching down. b) Keep the airspeed over the end of the runway at between 75 and 80 knots indicated. c) Don=99t raise the nose above the far end of the runway or the hor izon or you will lose track of where you are both laterally and above the runway =93 this can lead to a harsh touchdown. The airplane must be flown visually al l the way to touch down of the main gear =93 =9Cwings level and h ope=9D will not work. d) Forget about holding the nose gear off after touch down of the mains. It can be done, but not consistently and trying to achieve that will usual ly lose track of where you are in relation to the runway (see c above). e) I think a single vortex generator on each side of the fuselage nose can be of help (see the present versions on the Cirrus airplanes), but my experimentation is ongoing. OC === Time: 09:24:18 PM PST US From: _Flyinisfun@aol.com_ (mailto:Flyinisfun@aol.com) Subject: KIS-List: Vortex Generators Hi Kis Gang, I have had trouble as many of you have at landing the two place Kis. I have had to cross the fence at about 80 mph indicated with a touch down around 75. I've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the tail. I touched the rudder and sanded about 1/2" off the bottom of it and am lucky that was all. Anyway, I put VG's on the bottom side of the horizontal stabilizer, which did wonders and now on the wing. For the first time, when I put the flaps down the nose pitches down. I am crossing the fence at about 75 mph with a true touch down at 65. I can control it and hold it off for the first time until it sets down very gentle. I know these things have been cursed but I will not fly again without them. It has changed the whole complexion of this machine. I feel that at last I have a flying machine. Any comments from you? Jesse Wright


    Message 3


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    Time: 11:41:51 AM PST US
    From: "F. Tim Yoder" <ftyoder@yoderbuilt.com>
    Subject: Re: Landing the KIS TR-1
    Hi Jesse and OC, I had the same experience as OC, in landing speed and attitude, except it took me a long time and many bad approaches for it to sink in. :-( I did extend my elevator 1 1/2" while under construction and am able to consistently hold the nose off. The trick seems to be the balance due to the main gear location re CG. OC, I would be interested in you VG test results. Jesse, Any photos? Tim ----- Original Message ----- From: Owen Baker To: WRIGHT JESSE ; KIS-LIST MATRONICS Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 6:23 AM Subject: KIS-List: Landing the KIS TR-1 11/29/2012 Hello Jesse, You wrote: Questions: 1) =9CI can control it and hold it off for the first time until it sets down very gentle.=9D When you say =9Chold it off=9D are you talking about the entire plane, that is, holding the main gear off or just holding the nose wheel off after the mains touch down? 2) =9CI've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the tail.=9D It takes a really nose high attitude while in contact with the runway to drag the bottom of the rudder. A) Was this rudder contact just after a hard touchdown or while rolling out a bit? B) What were you trying to achieve with that nose high attitude -- A slow touch down and a short roll out? C) Where did you have the engine power set when you were trying the slower touch downs prior to installing the VG=99s? D) Where do you keep the engine power now during the flare? My Comments: I have come to the conclusion that the KIS TR-1 as originally configured, is just not a short field, slow touch down airplane. The technique that I have found that works the best is: a) Keep some engine power on (1200 =93 1300 rpm) until in ground effect just inches from the main gear touching down. b) Keep the airspeed over the end of the runway at between 75 and 80 knots indicated. c) Don=99t raise the nose above the far end of the runway or the horizon or you will lose track of where you are both laterally and above the runway =93 this can lead to a harsh touchdown. The airplane must be flown visually all the way to touch down of the main gear =93 =9Cwings level and hope=9D will not work. d) Forget about holding the nose gear off after touch down of the mains. It can be done, but not consistently and trying to achieve that will usually lose track of where you are in relation to the runway (see c above). e) I think a single vortex generator on each side of the fuselage nose can be of help (see the present versions on the Cirrus airplanes), but my experimentation is ongoing. OC === Time: 09:24:18 PM PST US From: Flyinisfun@aol.com Subject: KIS-List: Vortex Generators Hi Kis Gang, I have had trouble as many of you have at landing the two place Kis. I have had to cross the fence at about 80 mph indicated with a touch down around 75. I've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the tail. I touched the rudder and sanded about 1/2" off the bottom of it and am lucky that was all. Anyway, I put VG's on the bottom side of the horizontal stabilizer, which did wonders and now on the wing. For the first time, when I put the flaps down the nose pitches down. I am crossing the fence at about 75 mph with a true touch down at 65. I can control it and hold it off for the first time until it sets down very gentle. I know these things have been cursed but I will not fly again without them. It has changed the whole complexion of this machine. I feel that at last I have a flying machine. Any comments from you? Jesse Wright


    Message 4


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    Time: 11:59:07 AM PST US
    From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Landing the KIS TR-1
    Another modification to concider is reducing the mechanical advantage the s tick has over the elevator.=C2- =0A=C2-=0AI did this by drilling=C2-n ew holes in the mid fuselage bellcrank and=C2-moving that attach point of the forward push tube about half way toward the pivot point.=C2- The eff ect is to increase pitch forces which are=C2-much too light in the factor y configuration.=C2-=C2- I did this along with a 2 inch elevator extens ion=C2-and the=C2-airplane is easier to control in the flare and pitch athority is=C2-much improved over the factory set up.=C2- =0A=C2-=0AI also added a=C2-bob wieght which improved the ride in turbulence.=0A=C2 -=0AI highly recommend all three modifications.=C2- =0A=C2-=0AScott =0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A From: F. Tim Yoder <ftyoder@y oderbuilt.com>=0ATo: kis-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 11:41 AM=0ASubject: Re: KIS-List: Landing the KIS TR-1=0A =0A=0A=EF =BB =0AHi Jesse and OC, =0A=C2- =0AI had the same experience as OC, i n landing speed =0Aand attitude, except it took me a long time and many bad approaches for it to =0Asink in. :-(=C2- I did extend my elevator 1 1/2" while under construction and =0Aam able to consistently hold the nose off. The trick seems to be the balance due =0Ato the main gear location re CG. =0A=C2- =0AOC, I would be interested in you VG test =0Aresults. =0A=C2- =0AJesse, Any photos? =0A=C2- =0ATim =0A=C2- =0A=C2- =0A----- Origin al Message ----- =0A>From: Owen Baker =0A>To: WRIGHT JESSE ; KIS-LIST MA TRONICS =0A>Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 6:23 AM =0A>Subject: KIS-Li st: Landing the KIS TR-1 =0A>=0A> =0A>11/29/2012 =0A>=0A>Hello Jesse, You wrote: =0A>=0A>Questions: =0A>=0A>1) =9CI can control it and hold it off for the first time until it sets down very gentle.=9D =0A>=C2- =0A>When you say =9Chold it off=9D are you talking about the entire plane, that is, holding the main gear off=C2- or just holding the nose wheel off after the mains touch down? =0A>=C2- =0A>2) =9CI've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the tail.=9D =0A>=C2- =0A>It takes a really nose high attitude while in contact with the runway to drag the bottom of the rudder. =0A>=C2- =0A>A) Was this rudder contac t just after a hard touchdown or while rolling out a bit? =0A>=C2- =0A>B ) What were you trying to achieve with that nose high attitude -- A slow t ouch down and a short roll out? =0A>=C2- =0A>C) Where did you have the en gine power set when you were trying the slower touch downs prior to instal ling the VG=99s? =0A>=C2- =0A>D) Where do you keep the engine powe r now during the flare? =0A>=C2- =0A>My Comments: =0A>=C2- =0A>I have come to the conclusion that the KIS TR-1 as originally configured, is just not a short field, slow touch down airplane. The technique that I have fo und that works the best is: =0A>=C2- =0A>a) Keep some engine power on (12 00 =93 1300 rpm) until in ground effect just inches from the main ge ar touching down. =0A>=C2- =0A>b) Keep the airspeed over the end of the runway at between 75 and 80 knots indicated. =0A>=C2- =0A>c) Don =99t raise the nose above the far end of the runway or the horizon or you will lose track of where you are both laterally and above the runway =93 this can lead to a harsh touchdown. The airplane must be flown visu ally all the way to touch down of the main gear =93 =9Cwings l evel and hope=9D will not work. =0A>=C2- =0A>d) Forget about holdin g the nose gear off after touch down of the mains. It can be done, but not consistently and trying to achieve that will usually lose track of where you are in relation to the runway (see c above). =0A>=C2- =0A>e) I think a single vortex generator on each side of the fuselage nose can be of hel p (see the present versions on the Cirrus airplanes), but my experimentati on is ongoing. =0A>=C2- =0A>OC =0A>=C2- =0A>========= ==================== =0A>=0A>Time: 09:24:18 PM PST US=0A>From: Flyinisfun@aol.com=0A>Subject: KIS-List: Vortex Generators=0A>=0A>Hi Kis =0A Gang,=0A>=0A>I have had trouble as many of y ou have at landing the two place =0A Kis. I =0A>have had to cross the fenc e at about 80 mph indicated with a touch =0A down =0A>around 75. =0A>=C2 - =0A>I've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the tail. I touched =0A>the rudder and sanded about 1/2" off the bottom of =0A it and am lucky that was =0A>all. =0A>=C2- =0A>Anyway, I put VG's on the bottom side of the horizontal stabilizer, =0A>which did wonders and now on the wing. For the =0A first time, when I put the =0A>flaps down the nose pitches down. I am crossing =0A the fence at about 75 mph =0A>with a true touch down at 65. =0A>=C2- =0A>I can control it and hold it off for the first time un til it sets down very gentle. I know these things have been =0A>cursed but I will not fly again without them. It has changed the whole =0A>complexion of this machine. I feel that at last I have a flying machine. =0A>=C2- =0A>Any comments from you?=0A>=0A>Jesse =0A Wright=0A>href="http://www.a eroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com=0Ahref="http://www.buildersbooks.co m">www.buildersbooks.com=0Ahref="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebu ilthelp.com=0Ahref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.mat ronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www .matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List=0Ahref="http://forums.matronics.com">ht


    Message 5


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    Time: 12:04:04 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Landing the KIS TR-1
    From: Randy Ott <randy.ott@gmail.com>
    I also put the VG on my tail.... I am now considering puting them on the wing as well.... can you please provide a picture of your wing with the VGs installed. Tnx and how far from the door did your start palcing VGs? Randy Ott N96BT On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 5:23 AM, Owen Baker <bakerocb@cox.net> wrote: > 11/29/2012 > > Hello Jesse, You wrote: > > Questions: > > 1) =93I can control it and hold it off for the first time until it sets > down very gentle.=94 > > When you say =93hold it off=94 are you talking about the entire plane, th at > is, holding the main gear off or just holding the nose wheel off after t he > mains touch down? > > 2) =93I've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the tail.=94 > > It takes a really nose high attitude while in contact with the runway to > drag the bottom of the rudder. > > A) Was this rudder contact just after a hard touchdown or while rolling > out a bit? > > B) What were you trying to achieve with that nose high attitude -- A slow > touch down and a short roll out? > > C) Where did you have the engine power set when you were trying the slowe r > touch downs prior to installing the VG=92s? > > D) Where do you keep the engine power now during the flare? > > My Comments: > > I have come to the conclusion that the KIS TR-1 as originally configured, > is just not a short field, slow touch down airplane. The technique that I > have found that works the best is: > > a) Keep some engine power on (1200 ' 1300 rpm) until in ground effect j ust > inches from the main gear touching down. > > b) Keep the airspeed over the end of the runway at between 75 and 80 knot s > indicated. > > c) Don=92t raise the nose above the far end of the runway or the horizon or > you will lose track of where you are both laterally and above the runway ' > this can lead to a harsh touchdown. The airplane must be flown visually a ll > the way to touch down of the main gear ' =93wings level and hope=94 wil l not > work. > > d) Forget about holding the nose gear off after touch down of the mains. > It can be done, but not consistently and trying to achieve that will > usually lose track of where you are in relation to the runway (see c abov e). > > e) I think a single vortex generator on each side of the fuselage nose ca n > be of help (see the present versions on the Cirrus airplanes), but my > experimentation is ongoing. > > OC > > ======================== ==== > > Time: 09:24:18 PM PST US > From: Flyinisfun@aol.com > Subject: KIS-List: Vortex Generators > > Hi Kis Gang, > > I have had trouble as many of you have at landing the two place Kis. I > have had to cross the fence at about 80 mph indicated with a touch down > around 75. > > I've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the tail. I touched > the rudder and sanded about 1/2" off the bottom of it and am lucky that > was > all. > > Anyway, I put VG's on the bottom side of the horizontal stabilizer, > which did wonders and now on the wing. For the first time, when I put the > flaps down the nose pitches down. I am crossing the fence at about 75 mph > with a true touch down at 65. > > I can control it and hold it off for the first time until it sets down > very gentle. I know these things have been > cursed but I will not fly again without them. It has changed the whole > complexion of this machine. I feel that at last I have a flying machine. > > Any comments from you? > > Jesse Wright > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > >


    Message 6


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    Time: 12:57:31 PM PST US
    From: Bob and Kathy <katebob10@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Vortex Generators
    Hey TR-1 owners. I have a set of VG's for a TR-1. Never used as my TR-1 was destroyed and surfaces to put them on disappeared. Will sell. Bob=0A=0A=0A =0A________________________________=0A From: Galin Hernandez <galinhdz@gmai l.com>=0ATo: kis-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 1: 14 AM=0ASubject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators=0A =0A=0AI had the same ex perience with my TR-4. The VG's on my elevator worked wonders and it was ch eaper than trying to build a bigger elevator. Also my new all glass instrum ent panel installation is nearing completion. I hope to have the airplane b ack in the air within 2-3 more weeks. You can see pictures at my webpage: w ww.puertoricoflyer.com=0A=0A=0A:0)=0A=0A=0AOn Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 11:23 PM , <Flyinisfun@aol.com> wrote:=0A=0A =0A>Hi Kis Gang,=0A>-=0A>I have had t rouble as many of you have-at landing the two place =0AKis.- I have had to cross the fence at about 80 mph indicated with a touch =0Adown around 7 5.- I've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the =0Atail.- I touc hed the rudder and sanded about 1/2" off the bottom of it and =0Aam lucky t hat was all.- Anyway, I put VG's on the bottom side of the =0Ahorizontal stabilizer, which did wonders and now on the wing.- For the =0Afirst time , when I put the flaps down the nose pitches down.- I am crossing =0Athe fence at about 75 mph with a true touch down at 65.- I can control it =0A and hold it off for the first time until it sets down very gentle.- I kno w =0Athese things have been cursed but I will not fly again without them. - It =0Ahas changed the whole complexion of this machine.- I feel that at last I =0Ahave a flying machine.- Any comments from you.=0A>-=0A>- ------- Jesse Wright=0A>-=0A>--- - =0A>_blank">www. aeroelectric.com=0A.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com=0A="_bla nk">www.homebuilthelp.com=0A_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =0Aet="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List=0Atp://forums. ==============


    Message 7


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    Time: 01:36:54 PM PST US
    From: "F. Tim Yoder" <ftyoder@yoderbuilt.com>
    Subject: Re: Vortex Generators
    Details please, how much? Thanks, Tim ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob and Kathy To: kis-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 1:57 PM Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators Hey TR-1 owners. I have a set of VG's for a TR-1. Never used as my TR-1 was destroyed and surfaces to put them on disappeared. Will sell. Bob ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: Galin Hernandez <galinhdz@gmail.com> To: kis-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 1:14 AM Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators I had the same experience with my TR-4. The VG's on my elevator worked wonders and it was cheaper than trying to build a bigger elevator. Also my new all glass instrument panel installation is nearing completion. I hope to have the airplane back in the air within 2-3 more weeks. You can see pictures at my webpage: www.puertoricoflyer.com :0) On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 11:23 PM, <Flyinisfun@aol.com> wrote: Hi Kis Gang, I have had trouble as many of you have at landing the two place Kis. I have had to cross the fence at about 80 mph indicated with a touch down around 75. I've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the tail. I touched the rudder and sanded about 1/2" off the bottom of it and am lucky that was all. Anyway, I put VG's on the bottom side of the horizontal stabilizer, which did wonders and now on the wing. For the first time, when I put the flaps down the nose pitches down. I am crossing the fence at about 75 mph with a true touch down at 65. I can control it and hold it off for the first time until it sets down very gentle. I know these things have been cursed but I will not fly again without them. It has changed the whole complexion of this machine. I feel that at last I have a flying machine. Any comments from you. Jesse Wright _blank">www.aeroelectric.com .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List tp://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-Li-=========== =======================


    Message 8


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    Time: 05:52:11 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Vortex Generators
    From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com>
    Aircraft spruce has stick on VGs that work well. On Nov 29, 2012, at 1:36 PM, "F. Tim Yoder" <ftyoder@yoderbuilt.com> wrote: > Details please, how much? > > Thanks, > > Tim > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bob and Kathy > To: kis-list@matronics.com > Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 1:57 PM > Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators > > Hey TR-1 owners. I have a set of VG's for a TR-1. Never used as my TR-1 wa s destroyed and surfaces to put them on disappeared. Will sell. Bob > > From: Galin Hernandez <galinhdz@gmail.com> > To: kis-list@matronics.com > Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 1:14 AM > Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators > > I had the same experience with my TR-4. The VG's on my elevator worked won ders and it was cheaper than trying to build a bigger elevator. Also my new a ll glass instrument panel installation is nearing completion. I hope to have the airplane back in the air within 2-3 more weeks. You can see pictures at my webpage: www.puertoricoflyer.com > > :0) > > On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 11:23 PM, <Flyinisfun@aol.com> wrote: > Hi Kis Gang, > > I have had trouble as many of you have at landing the two place Kis. I ha ve had to cross the fence at about 80 mph indicated with a touch down around 75. I've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the tail. I touched th e rudder and sanded about 1/2" off the bottom of it and am lucky that was al l. Anyway, I put VG's on the bottom side of the horizontal stabilizer, whic h did wonders and now on the wing. For the first time, when I put the flaps down the nose pitches down. I am crossing the fence at about 75 mph with a true touch down at 65. I can control it and hold it off for the first time until it sets down very gentle. I know these things have been cursed but I will not fly again without them. It has changed the whole complexion of th is machine. I feel that at last I have a flying machine. Any comments from you. > > Jesse Wright > > > > > _blank">www.aeroelectric.com > .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com > ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-Li-========= > > > > > > href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com > href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com > href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ch ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?KIS-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= >


    Message 9


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    Time: 06:41:03 PM PST US
    From: "F. Tim Yoder" <ftyoder@yoderbuilt.com>
    Subject: Re: Vortex Generators
    Thanks Scott, Tim ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Stearns To: kis-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 6:51 PM Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators Aircraft spruce has stick on VGs that work well. On Nov 29, 2012, at 1:36 PM, "F. Tim Yoder" <ftyoder@yoderbuilt.com> wrote: Details please, how much? Thanks, Tim ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob and Kathy To: kis-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 1:57 PM Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators Hey TR-1 owners. I have a set of VG's for a TR-1. Never used as my TR-1 was destroyed and surfaces to put them on disappeared. Will sell. Bob ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - From: Galin Hernandez <galinhdz@gmail.com> To: kis-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 1:14 AM Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators I had the same experience with my TR-4. The VG's on my elevator worked wonders and it was cheaper than trying to build a bigger elevator. Also my new all glass instrument panel installation is nearing completion. I hope to have the airplane back in the air within 2-3 more weeks. You can see pictures at my webpage: www.puertoricoflyer.com :0) On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 11:23 PM, <Flyinisfun@aol.com> wrote: Hi Kis Gang, I have had trouble as many of you have at landing the two place Kis. I have had to cross the fence at about 80 mph indicated with a touch down around 75. I've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the tail. I touched the rudder and sanded about 1/2" off the bottom of it and am lucky that was all. Anyway, I put VG's on the bottom side of the horizontal stabilizer, which did wonders and now on the wing. For the first time, when I put the flaps down the nose pitches down. I am crossing the fence at about 75 mph with a true touch down at 65. I can control it and hold it off for the first time until it sets down very gentle. I know these things have been cursed but I will not fly again without them. It has changed the whole complexion of this machine. I feel that at last I have a flying machine. Any comments from you. Jesse Wright _blank">www.aeroelectric.com .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List tp://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-Li-========= href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics .com/Navigator?KIS-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D


    Message 10


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    Time: 07:15:09 PM PST US
    From: Galin Hernandez <galinhdz@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Vortex Generators
    Those are the ones I used on my TR4. Galin On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 7:51 PM, Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com> wrote: > Aircraft spruce has stick on VGs that work well. > > > On Nov 29, 2012, at 1:36 PM, "F. Tim Yoder" <ftyoder@yoderbuilt.com> > wrote: > > Details please, how much? > > Thanks, > > Tim > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Bob and Kathy <katebob10@yahoo.com> > *To:* kis-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Thursday, November 29, 2012 1:57 PM > *Subject:* Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators > > Hey TR-1 owners. I have a set of VG's for a TR-1. Never used as my TR-1 > was destroyed and surfaces to put them on disappeared. Will sell. Bob > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Galin Hernandez <galinhdz@gmail.com> > *To:* kis-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Thursday, November 29, 2012 1:14 AM > *Subject:* Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators > > I had the same experience with my TR-4. The VG's on my elevator worked > wonders and it was cheaper than trying to build a bigger elevator. Also my > new all glass instrument panel installation is nearing completion. I hope > to have the airplane back in the air within 2-3 more weeks. You can see > pictures at my webpage: www.puertoricoflyer.com > > :0) > > On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 11:23 PM, <Flyinisfun@aol.com> wrote: > > ** > Hi Kis Gang, > > I have had trouble as many of you have at landing the two place Kis. I > have had to cross the fence at about 80 mph indicated with a touch down > around 75. I've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the tail. I > touched the rudder and sanded about 1/2" off the bottom of it and am lucky > that was all. Anyway, I put VG's on the bottom side of the horizontal > stabilizer, which did wonders and now on the wing. For the first time, > when I put the flaps down the nose pitches down. I am crossing the fence > at about 75 mph with a true touch down at 65. I can control it and hold it > off for the first time until it sets down very gentle. I know these things > have been cursed but I will not fly again without them. It has changed the > whole complexion of this machine. I feel that at last I have a flying > machine. Any comments from you. > > Jesse Wright > > > * > > _blank">www.aeroelectric.com > .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com > ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > * > > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-Li-========= > * > > > * > > href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com > href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com > href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > * > > * > > * > > * > > * > >


    Message 11


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    Time: 09:28:13 PM PST US
    From: Flyinisfun@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Landing the KIS TR-1
    I will try to get a couple of pictures and an explanation of where I located the VG's tomorrow. Randy, I too first put the VG's on the undersi de of my horizontal stabilizer and it made a huge difference. The difference just that made was seem when I went flying one day, came back and made a crappy landing. I looked for them and surprise, they were all blown off. I put them on again with 3-M contact spray. It is also recommended to use Lucite 330 glue available at the hardware store. Both of these mod's, tail and wing should go together. Please consider, Piper is now putting them on th e Mirage. Jesse Wright In a message dated 11/29/2012 1:04:07 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, randy.ott@gmail.com writes: I also put the VG on my tail.... I am now considering puting them on the wing as well.... can you please provide a picture of your wing with the VGs installed. Tnx and how far from the door did your start palacing VGs? Randy Ott N96BT On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 5:23 AM, Owen Baker <_bakerocb@cox.net_ (mailto:bakerocb@cox.net) > wrote: 11/29/2012 Hello Jesse, You wrote: Questions: 1) =9CI can control it and hold it off for the first time until it s ets down very gentle.=9D When you say =9Chold it off=9D are you talking about the entir e plane, that is, holding the main gear off or just holding the nose wheel off after th e mains touch down? 2) =9CI've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the tail. =9D It takes a really nose high attitude while in contact with the runway to drag the bottom of the rudder. A) Was this rudder contact just after a hard touchdown or while rolling out a bit? B) What were you trying to achieve with that nose high attitude -- A slow touch down and a short roll out? C) Where did you have the engine power set when you were trying the slower touch downs prior to installing the VG=99s? D) Where do you keep the engine power now during the flare? My Comments: I have come to the conclusion that the KIS TR-1 as originally configured, is just not a short field, slow touch down airplane. The technique that I have found that works the best is: a) Keep some engine power on (1200 =93 1300 rpm) until in ground eff ect just inches from the main gear touching down. b) Keep the airspeed over the end of the runway at between 75 and 80 knots indicated. c) Don=99t raise the nose above the far end of the runway or the hor izon or you will lose track of where you are both laterally and above the runway =93 this can lead to a harsh touchdown. The airplane must be flown visually al l the way to touch down of the main gear =93 =9Cwings level and hope=9D will not work. d) Forget about holding the nose gear off after touch down of the mains. It can be done, but not consistently and trying to achieve that will usual ly lose track of where you are in relation to the runway (see c above). e) I think a single vortex generator on each side of the fuselage nose can be of help (see the present versions on the Cirrus airplanes), but my experimentation is ongoing. OC === Time: 09:24:18 PM PST US From: _Flyinisfun@aol.com_ (mailto:Flyinisfun@aol.com) Subject: KIS-List: Vortex Generators Hi Kis Gang, I have had trouble as many of you have at landing the two place Kis. I have had to cross the fence at about 80 mph indicated with a touch down around 75. I've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the tail. I touched the rudder and sanded about 1/2" off the bottom of it and am lucky that was all. Anyway, I put VG's on the bottom side of the horizontal stabilizer, which did wonders and now on the wing. For the first time, when I put the flaps down the nose pitches down. I am crossing the fence at about 75 mph with a true touch down at 65. I can control it and hold it off for the first time until it sets down very gentle. I know these things have been cursed but I will not fly again without them. It has changed the whole complexion of this machine. I feel that at last I have a flying machine. Any comments from you? Jesse Wright _blank">www.aeroelectric.com .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp .com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List tp://forums.matro nics.com (http://www.aeroelectric.com/) (http://www.buildersbooks.com/) (http://www.homebuilthelp.com/) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List)




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