Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 10:20 AM - Just Two Days Left! - Still Behind... (Matt Dralle)
1. 10:34 AM - Landing the KIS TR-1 (Owen Baker)
2. 11:16 AM - Re: Landing the KIS TR-1 with VG's (Flyinisfun@aol.com)
3. 11:41 AM - Re: Landing the KIS TR-1 (F. Tim Yoder)
4. 11:59 AM - Re: Landing the KIS TR-1 (Scott Stearns)
5. 12:04 PM - Re: Landing the KIS TR-1 (Randy Ott)
6. 12:57 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (Bob and Kathy)
7. 01:36 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (F. Tim Yoder)
8. 05:52 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (Scott Stearns)
9. 06:41 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (F. Tim Yoder)
10. 07:15 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (Galin Hernandez)
11. 09:28 PM - Re: Landing the KIS TR-1 (Flyinisfun@aol.com)
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Subject: | Just Two Days Left! - Still Behind... |
Dear Listers,
There are just two more days left in this years List Fund Raiser. Over the last
couple of weeks I have received some more really nice comments from members
on what the Lists have meant to them. I have included a few more of them below.
Please read over the comments and ponder on your own feelings about the Lists
and the support and camaraderie you have found here.
We are still behind last year in terms of the number of contributions. I really
want to keep providing these services to the homebuilt community, but it take
resources. Since there's no advertising budget or deep pockets to keep the
operation a float, its solely your generosity during the Fund Raiser that keeps
things going. Please make a Contribution today.
If you've been putting off showing your support for the Lists, now is the time
to do it!
Make a contribution with a Credit Card or though PayPal at that Matronics Contribution
web site:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Or, drop a check in the mail:
Matronics / Matt Dralle
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore, CA 94550
Thank you in advance for your support!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
==================== A Few List Member Comments =====================
I have been flying my Pietenpol for a month now and am
enjoying the fruits of ten hard years of work. I seriously
doubt it would ever have been finished but for the help,
encouragement and friendships I've received and made through
the Pietenpol list.
Douwe B
Hey-Long time subscriber, zero-time contributor. Just a
note of thanks. This is first time I have the resources to
contribute. Thanks for carrying a lightweight for years and
a special thanks for your time and effort.
Billy R
My 601 hd is flying with the help with the listers.
Noel G
A very useful facility.
Graeme B
..great site!
Robert C
Great Pietenpol site!
Don Y
Not active but always interested in keeping up. Enjoy
when I can.
Richard R
Dave and Tim from Aircrafters just want to reiterate our
thanks for hosting the lists.
Tim F.
I don't have a lot to give at this time of year, but I
hope my contribution helps none the less. I really enjoy
the message board.
Mark C
Thanks to your continued work on maintaining these lists.
Ralph C
The lists and the various contributors have been a great
help while I was building and also now that I'm flying.
Albert G
Very helpful tools for the homebuilder.
Vaughn T
We appreciate your great help!
Richard H
Many of our customers have expressed to us that you
provide them with an invaluable service - and we agree!
Bill B
I Fly a Quicksilver GT400 but love to read what the Kolb
boys have to say and it was on your list that I found out
about the Yamaha product Ring Free,, now called engine med,
that shit works.. no carbon in my rings or any to speak of
with the use of the Yamaha product with a premix 503 with
over 300 hrs of use.. thanks to your Kolb bulletin board.
Robert B
You are providing a valuable service that helps a lot of
people through information sharing. When I built my
Pietenpol over 40 years ago we were largely on our own,
working without a resource like this list.
Graham H
Thanks for the opportunity to link us all, keep the good work!
Peter B
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Subject: | Landing the KIS TR-1 |
11/29/2012
Hello Jesse, You wrote:
Questions:
1) =9CI can control it and hold it off for the first time until it
sets down very gentle.=9D
When you say =9Chold it off=9D are you talking about the
entire plane, that is, holding the main gear off or just holding the
nose wheel off after the mains touch down?
2) =9CI've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the
tail.=9D
It takes a really nose high attitude while in contact with the runway to
drag the bottom of the rudder.
A) Was this rudder contact just after a hard touchdown or while rolling
out a bit?
B) What were you trying to achieve with that nose high attitude -- A
slow touch down and a short roll out?
C) Where did you have the engine power set when you were trying the
slower touch downs prior to installing the VG=99s?
D) Where do you keep the engine power now during the flare?
My Comments:
I have come to the conclusion that the KIS TR-1 as originally
configured, is just not a short field, slow touch down airplane. The
technique that I have found that works the best is:
a) Keep some engine power on (1200 =93 1300 rpm) until in ground
effect just inches from the main gear touching down.
b) Keep the airspeed over the end of the runway at between 75 and 80
knots indicated.
c) Don=99t raise the nose above the far end of the runway or the
horizon or you will lose track of where you are both laterally and above
the runway =93 this can lead to a harsh touchdown. The airplane
must be flown visually all the way to touch down of the main gear
=93 =9Cwings level and hope=9D will not work.
d) Forget about holding the nose gear off after touch down of the mains.
It can be done, but not consistently and trying to achieve that will
usually lose track of where you are in relation to the runway (see c
above).
e) I think a single vortex generator on each side of the fuselage nose
can be of help (see the present versions on the Cirrus airplanes), but
my experimentation is ongoing.
OC
===
Time: 09:24:18 PM PST US
From: Flyinisfun@aol.com
Subject: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
Hi Kis Gang,
I have had trouble as many of you have at landing the two place Kis. I
have had to cross the fence at about 80 mph indicated with a touch down
around 75.
I've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the tail. I touched
the rudder and sanded about 1/2" off the bottom of it and am lucky that
was
all.
Anyway, I put VG's on the bottom side of the horizontal stabilizer,
which did wonders and now on the wing. For the first time, when I put
the
flaps down the nose pitches down. I am crossing the fence at about 75
mph
with a true touch down at 65.
I can control it and hold it off for the first time until it sets down
very gentle. I know these things have been
cursed but I will not fly again without them. It has changed the whole
complexion of this machine. I feel that at last I have a flying machine.
Any comments from you?
Jesse Wright
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Landing the KIS TR-1 with VG's |
In a message dated 11/29/2012 6:23:27 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,
bakerocb@cox.net writes:
O.C. Good questions which gives me the opportunity to explain further.
Please see my comments to each of your questions or comments. Jesse
11/29/2012
Hello Jesse, You wrote:
Questions:
1) =9CI can control it and hold it off for the first time until it s
ets down
very gentle.=9D
When you say =9Chold it off=9D are you talking about the entir
e plane, that
is, holding the main gear off or just holding the nose wheel off after th
e
mains touch down?
With one notch of flaps at idle, I can now hold the complete airplane
about two feet off the runway and let it settle gently - touch it down muc
h
like a Cessna. It is not nose high but is still creating lift on the wing
s. I
am amazed! I can easly pull off the 10,000 ft. runway at Centennial, at
the second turn off which is about 3000 ft.
2) =9CI've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the tail.
=9D
It takes a really nose high attitude while in contact with the runway to
drag the bottom of the rudder.
I have normally landed as you described. Holding it level across the
fence, decrease power from about 1200 rpm with one notch of flaps. The ti
me I
tried to land slower I raised the nose only to realize I was loosing it.
The nose raised to a very dangerous point while trying to save it. The ta
il
touched the runway before the mains touched, rocked over on it's nose
wheel and then back on the mains and landed. I felt I was very fortunate
to
walk away (I've repaired the bottom of the rudder since.) The wings had
totally lose any lift.
A) Was this rudder contact just after a hard touchdown or while rolling
out a bit?
B) What were you trying to achieve with that nose high attitude -- A slow
touch down and a short roll out?
C) Where did you have the engine power set when you were trying the slower
touch downs prior to installing the VG=99s?
I had pulled back to around 900 rpm.
D) Where do you keep the engine power now during the flare?
I now play the rpm, bringing it back to complete idle after I get lined up
and holding a constant descent. I am totally to idle in ground effect
before touchdown. (I definitely know now when I'm in ground effect. Befo
re I
flew through ground effect with about 1200 rpm, planted it on. After I
learned how to do this and never bounced it or let the nose get high again
,
but leveled it off, controlled it with power and waited for it to touch.
At
some point before touch down I always felt like I was a passenger.) Now,
when just above the runway, if I nudge the stick back, the nose will raise
but with equal amount of forward stick it will re-establish the descent as
set up before and I can hold it there. Someone else has got to check me
out on this and see how it reacts on their plane.
I can believe there is lift created where there was little or none before.
As I said in my earlier blurb that there is now much larger amount of
resistance to pull in flaps, where as not before and the nose wants to pit
ch
down as it did not do before. That indicates to me there is lift that was
not present before. It's like putting a different wing on this thing.
I've got to do some more maneuver at altitude but I don't think I would be
afraid to dead stick this thing with an engine out anywhere near as I
would have been before. I've got to full stall straight ahead and see wha
t
happens. Before It was a "heart in throat" maneuver. Mine dropped like a
rock. I never did that but once. I'm afraid of a secondary stall pulling
out,
it is so clean. All flying to this point has been by myself. I am now in
the process of getting some weight in the right seat and see if that
changes any thing.
Go on line and read what the suppliers of these things say and comments by
others. This could be a real safety factor for our community. Jesse
My Comments:
I have come to the conclusion that the KIS TR-1 as originally configured,
is just not a short field, slow touch down airplane. The technique that I
have found that works the best is:
a) Keep some engine power on (1200 =93 1300 rpm) until in ground eff
ect just
inches from the main gear touching down.
b) Keep the airspeed over the end of the runway at between 75 and 80 knots
indicated.
c) Don=99t raise the nose above the far end of the runway or the hor
izon or
you will lose track of where you are both laterally and above the runway
=93
this can lead to a harsh touchdown. The airplane must be flown visually al
l
the way to touch down of the main gear =93 =9Cwings level and h
ope=9D will not
work.
d) Forget about holding the nose gear off after touch down of the mains.
It can be done, but not consistently and trying to achieve that will usual
ly
lose track of where you are in relation to the runway (see c above).
e) I think a single vortex generator on each side of the fuselage nose can
be of help (see the present versions on the Cirrus airplanes), but my
experimentation is ongoing.
OC
===
Time: 09:24:18 PM PST US
From: _Flyinisfun@aol.com_ (mailto:Flyinisfun@aol.com)
Subject: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
Hi Kis Gang,
I have had trouble as many of you have at landing the two place Kis. I
have had to cross the fence at about 80 mph indicated with a touch down
around 75.
I've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the tail. I touched
the rudder and sanded about 1/2" off the bottom of it and am lucky that
was
all.
Anyway, I put VG's on the bottom side of the horizontal stabilizer,
which did wonders and now on the wing. For the first time, when I put the
flaps down the nose pitches down. I am crossing the fence at about 75 mph
with a true touch down at 65.
I can control it and hold it off for the first time until it sets down
very gentle. I know these things have been
cursed but I will not fly again without them. It has changed the whole
complexion of this machine. I feel that at last I have a flying machine.
Any comments from you?
Jesse Wright
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Landing the KIS TR-1 |
Hi Jesse and OC,
I had the same experience as OC, in landing speed and attitude, except
it took me a long time and many bad approaches for it to sink in. :-( I
did extend my elevator 1 1/2" while under construction and am able to
consistently hold the nose off. The trick seems to be the balance due to
the main gear location re CG.
OC, I would be interested in you VG test results.
Jesse, Any photos?
Tim
----- Original Message -----
From: Owen Baker
To: WRIGHT JESSE ; KIS-LIST MATRONICS
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 6:23 AM
Subject: KIS-List: Landing the KIS TR-1
11/29/2012
Hello Jesse, You wrote:
Questions:
1) =9CI can control it and hold it off for the first time until
it sets down very gentle.=9D
When you say =9Chold it off=9D are you talking about the
entire plane, that is, holding the main gear off or just holding the
nose wheel off after the mains touch down?
2) =9CI've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the
tail.=9D
It takes a really nose high attitude while in contact with the runway
to drag the bottom of the rudder.
A) Was this rudder contact just after a hard touchdown or while
rolling out a bit?
B) What were you trying to achieve with that nose high attitude -- A
slow touch down and a short roll out?
C) Where did you have the engine power set when you were trying the
slower touch downs prior to installing the VG=99s?
D) Where do you keep the engine power now during the flare?
My Comments:
I have come to the conclusion that the KIS TR-1 as originally
configured, is just not a short field, slow touch down airplane. The
technique that I have found that works the best is:
a) Keep some engine power on (1200 =93 1300 rpm) until in ground
effect just inches from the main gear touching down.
b) Keep the airspeed over the end of the runway at between 75 and 80
knots indicated.
c) Don=99t raise the nose above the far end of the runway or the
horizon or you will lose track of where you are both laterally and above
the runway =93 this can lead to a harsh touchdown. The airplane
must be flown visually all the way to touch down of the main gear
=93 =9Cwings level and hope=9D will not work.
d) Forget about holding the nose gear off after touch down of the
mains. It can be done, but not consistently and trying to achieve that
will usually lose track of where you are in relation to the runway (see
c above).
e) I think a single vortex generator on each side of the fuselage nose
can be of help (see the present versions on the Cirrus airplanes), but
my experimentation is ongoing.
OC
===
Time: 09:24:18 PM PST US
From: Flyinisfun@aol.com
Subject: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
Hi Kis Gang,
I have had trouble as many of you have at landing the two place Kis. I
have had to cross the fence at about 80 mph indicated with a touch
down
around 75.
I've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the tail. I touched
the rudder and sanded about 1/2" off the bottom of it and am lucky
that was
all.
Anyway, I put VG's on the bottom side of the horizontal stabilizer,
which did wonders and now on the wing. For the first time, when I put
the
flaps down the nose pitches down. I am crossing the fence at about 75
mph
with a true touch down at 65.
I can control it and hold it off for the first time until it sets down
very gentle. I know these things have been
cursed but I will not fly again without them. It has changed the whole
complexion of this machine. I feel that at last I have a flying
machine.
Any comments from you?
Jesse Wright
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Landing the KIS TR-1 |
Another modification to concider is reducing the mechanical advantage the s
tick has over the elevator.=C2- =0A=C2-=0AI did this by drilling=C2-n
ew holes in the mid fuselage bellcrank and=C2-moving that attach point of
the forward push tube about half way toward the pivot point.=C2- The eff
ect is to increase pitch forces which are=C2-much too light in the factor
y configuration.=C2-=C2- I did this along with a 2 inch elevator extens
ion=C2-and the=C2-airplane is easier to control in the flare and pitch
athority is=C2-much improved over the factory set up.=C2- =0A=C2-=0AI
also added a=C2-bob wieght which improved the ride in turbulence.=0A=C2
-=0AI highly recommend all three modifications.=C2- =0A=C2-=0AScott
=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A From: F. Tim Yoder <ftyoder@y
oderbuilt.com>=0ATo: kis-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Thursday, November 29,
2012 11:41 AM=0ASubject: Re: KIS-List: Landing the KIS TR-1=0A =0A=0A=EF
=BB =0AHi Jesse and OC, =0A=C2- =0AI had the same experience as OC, i
n landing speed =0Aand attitude, except it took me a long time and many bad
approaches for it to =0Asink in. :-(=C2- I did extend my elevator 1 1/2"
while under construction and =0Aam able to consistently hold the nose off.
The trick seems to be the balance due =0Ato the main gear location re CG.
=0A=C2- =0AOC, I would be interested in you VG test =0Aresults. =0A=C2-
=0AJesse, Any photos? =0A=C2- =0ATim =0A=C2- =0A=C2- =0A----- Origin
al Message ----- =0A>From: Owen Baker =0A>To: WRIGHT JESSE ; KIS-LIST MA
TRONICS =0A>Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 6:23 AM =0A>Subject: KIS-Li
st: Landing the KIS TR-1 =0A>=0A> =0A>11/29/2012 =0A>=0A>Hello Jesse, You
wrote: =0A>=0A>Questions: =0A>=0A>1) =9CI can control it and hold it
off for the first time until it sets down very gentle.=9D =0A>=C2-
=0A>When you say =9Chold it off=9D are you talking about the
entire plane, that is, holding the main gear off=C2- or just holding the
nose wheel off after the mains touch down? =0A>=C2- =0A>2) =9CI've
tried slower only to plant it on and drag the tail.=9D =0A>=C2-
=0A>It takes a really nose high attitude while in contact with the runway
to drag the bottom of the rudder. =0A>=C2- =0A>A) Was this rudder contac
t just after a hard touchdown or while rolling out a bit? =0A>=C2- =0A>B
) What were you trying to achieve with that nose high attitude -- A slow t
ouch down and a short roll out? =0A>=C2- =0A>C) Where did you have the en
gine power set when you were trying the slower touch downs prior to instal
ling the VG=99s? =0A>=C2- =0A>D) Where do you keep the engine powe
r now during the flare? =0A>=C2- =0A>My Comments: =0A>=C2- =0A>I have
come to the conclusion that the KIS TR-1 as originally configured, is just
not a short field, slow touch down airplane. The technique that I have fo
und that works the best is: =0A>=C2- =0A>a) Keep some engine power on (12
00 =93 1300 rpm) until in ground effect just inches from the main ge
ar touching down. =0A>=C2- =0A>b) Keep the airspeed over the end of the
runway at between 75 and 80 knots indicated. =0A>=C2- =0A>c) Don
=99t raise the nose above the far end of the runway or the horizon or you
will lose track of where you are both laterally and above the runway
=93 this can lead to a harsh touchdown. The airplane must be flown visu
ally all the way to touch down of the main gear =93 =9Cwings l
evel and hope=9D will not work. =0A>=C2- =0A>d) Forget about holdin
g the nose gear off after touch down of the mains. It can be done, but not
consistently and trying to achieve that will usually lose track of where
you are in relation to the runway (see c above). =0A>=C2- =0A>e) I think
a single vortex generator on each side of the fuselage nose can be of hel
p (see the present versions on the Cirrus airplanes), but my experimentati
on is ongoing. =0A>=C2- =0A>OC =0A>=C2- =0A>=========
==================== =0A>=0A>Time:
09:24:18 PM PST US=0A>From: Flyinisfun@aol.com=0A>Subject: KIS-List: Vortex
Generators=0A>=0A>Hi Kis =0A Gang,=0A>=0A>I have had trouble as many of y
ou have at landing the two place =0A Kis. I =0A>have had to cross the fenc
e at about 80 mph indicated with a touch =0A down =0A>around 75. =0A>=C2
- =0A>I've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the tail. I touched
=0A>the rudder and sanded about 1/2" off the bottom of =0A it and am lucky
that was =0A>all. =0A>=C2- =0A>Anyway, I put VG's on the bottom side of
the horizontal stabilizer, =0A>which did wonders and now on the wing. For
the =0A first time, when I put the =0A>flaps down the nose pitches down.
I am crossing =0A the fence at about 75 mph =0A>with a true touch down at
65. =0A>=C2- =0A>I can control it and hold it off for the first time un
til it sets down very gentle. I know these things have been =0A>cursed but
I will not fly again without them. It has changed the whole =0A>complexion
of this machine. I feel that at last I have a flying machine. =0A>=C2-
=0A>Any comments from you?=0A>=0A>Jesse =0A Wright=0A>href="http://www.a
eroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com=0Ahref="http://www.buildersbooks.co
m">www.buildersbooks.com=0Ahref="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebu
ilthelp.com=0Ahref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.mat
ronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www
.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List=0Ahref="http://forums.matronics.com">ht
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Subject: | Re: Landing the KIS TR-1 |
I also put the VG on my tail.... I am now considering puting them on the
wing as well.... can you please provide a picture of your wing with the VGs
installed. Tnx and how far from the door did your start palcing VGs?
Randy Ott N96BT
On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 5:23 AM, Owen Baker <bakerocb@cox.net> wrote:
> 11/29/2012
>
> Hello Jesse, You wrote:
>
> Questions:
>
> 1) =93I can control it and hold it off for the first time until it sets
> down very gentle.=94
>
> When you say =93hold it off=94 are you talking about the entire plane, th
at
> is, holding the main gear off or just holding the nose wheel off after t
he
> mains touch down?
>
> 2) =93I've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the tail.=94
>
> It takes a really nose high attitude while in contact with the runway to
> drag the bottom of the rudder.
>
> A) Was this rudder contact just after a hard touchdown or while rolling
> out a bit?
>
> B) What were you trying to achieve with that nose high attitude -- A slow
> touch down and a short roll out?
>
> C) Where did you have the engine power set when you were trying the slowe
r
> touch downs prior to installing the VG=92s?
>
> D) Where do you keep the engine power now during the flare?
>
> My Comments:
>
> I have come to the conclusion that the KIS TR-1 as originally configured,
> is just not a short field, slow touch down airplane. The technique that I
> have found that works the best is:
>
> a) Keep some engine power on (1200 ' 1300 rpm) until in ground effect j
ust
> inches from the main gear touching down.
>
> b) Keep the airspeed over the end of the runway at between 75 and 80 knot
s
> indicated.
>
> c) Don=92t raise the nose above the far end of the runway or the horizon
or
> you will lose track of where you are both laterally and above the runway
'
> this can lead to a harsh touchdown. The airplane must be flown visually a
ll
> the way to touch down of the main gear ' =93wings level and hope=94 wil
l not
> work.
>
> d) Forget about holding the nose gear off after touch down of the mains.
> It can be done, but not consistently and trying to achieve that will
> usually lose track of where you are in relation to the runway (see c abov
e).
>
> e) I think a single vortex generator on each side of the fuselage nose ca
n
> be of help (see the present versions on the Cirrus airplanes), but my
> experimentation is ongoing.
>
> OC
>
> ========================
====
>
> Time: 09:24:18 PM PST US
> From: Flyinisfun@aol.com
> Subject: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
>
> Hi Kis Gang,
>
> I have had trouble as many of you have at landing the two place Kis. I
> have had to cross the fence at about 80 mph indicated with a touch down
> around 75.
>
> I've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the tail. I touched
> the rudder and sanded about 1/2" off the bottom of it and am lucky that
> was
> all.
>
> Anyway, I put VG's on the bottom side of the horizontal stabilizer,
> which did wonders and now on the wing. For the first time, when I put the
> flaps down the nose pitches down. I am crossing the fence at about 75 mph
> with a true touch down at 65.
>
> I can control it and hold it off for the first time until it sets down
> very gentle. I know these things have been
> cursed but I will not fly again without them. It has changed the whole
> complexion of this machine. I feel that at last I have a flying machine.
>
> Any comments from you?
>
> Jesse Wright
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
Hey TR-1 owners. I have a set of VG's for a TR-1. Never used as my TR-1 was
destroyed and surfaces to put them on disappeared. Will sell. Bob=0A=0A=0A
=0A________________________________=0A From: Galin Hernandez <galinhdz@gmai
l.com>=0ATo: kis-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 1:
14 AM=0ASubject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators=0A =0A=0AI had the same ex
perience with my TR-4. The VG's on my elevator worked wonders and it was ch
eaper than trying to build a bigger elevator. Also my new all glass instrum
ent panel installation is nearing completion. I hope to have the airplane b
ack in the air within 2-3 more weeks. You can see pictures at my webpage: w
ww.puertoricoflyer.com=0A=0A=0A:0)=0A=0A=0AOn Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 11:23 PM
, <Flyinisfun@aol.com> wrote:=0A=0A =0A>Hi Kis Gang,=0A>-=0A>I have had t
rouble as many of you have-at landing the two place =0AKis.- I have had
to cross the fence at about 80 mph indicated with a touch =0Adown around 7
5.- I've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the =0Atail.- I touc
hed the rudder and sanded about 1/2" off the bottom of it and =0Aam lucky t
hat was all.- Anyway, I put VG's on the bottom side of the =0Ahorizontal
stabilizer, which did wonders and now on the wing.- For the =0Afirst time
, when I put the flaps down the nose pitches down.- I am crossing =0Athe
fence at about 75 mph with a true touch down at 65.- I can control it =0A
and hold it off for the first time until it sets down very gentle.- I kno
w =0Athese things have been cursed but I will not fly again without them.
- It =0Ahas changed the whole complexion of this machine.- I feel that
at last I =0Ahave a flying machine.- Any comments from you.=0A>-=0A>-
------- Jesse Wright=0A>-=0A>--- - =0A>_blank">www.
aeroelectric.com=0A.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com=0A="_bla
nk">www.homebuilthelp.com=0A_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
=0Aet="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List=0Atp://forums.
==============
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
Details please, how much?
Thanks,
Tim
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob and Kathy
To: kis-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
Hey TR-1 owners. I have a set of VG's for a TR-1. Never used as my
TR-1 was destroyed and surfaces to put them on disappeared. Will sell.
Bob
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: Galin Hernandez <galinhdz@gmail.com>
To: kis-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 1:14 AM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
I had the same experience with my TR-4. The VG's on my elevator worked
wonders and it was cheaper than trying to build a bigger elevator. Also
my new all glass instrument panel installation is nearing completion. I
hope to have the airplane back in the air within 2-3 more weeks. You can
see pictures at my webpage: www.puertoricoflyer.com
:0)
On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 11:23 PM, <Flyinisfun@aol.com> wrote:
Hi Kis Gang,
I have had trouble as many of you have at landing the two place Kis.
I have had to cross the fence at about 80 mph indicated with a touch
down around 75. I've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the
tail. I touched the rudder and sanded about 1/2" off the bottom of it
and am lucky that was all. Anyway, I put VG's on the bottom side of the
horizontal stabilizer, which did wonders and now on the wing. For the
first time, when I put the flaps down the nose pitches down. I am
crossing the fence at about 75 mph with a true touch down at 65. I can
control it and hold it off for the first time until it sets down very
gentle. I know these things have been cursed but I will not fly again
without them. It has changed the whole complexion of this machine. I
feel that at last I have a flying machine. Any comments from you.
Jesse Wright
_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-Li-===========
=======================
Message 8
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|
Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
Aircraft spruce has stick on VGs that work well.
On Nov 29, 2012, at 1:36 PM, "F. Tim Yoder" <ftyoder@yoderbuilt.com> wrote:
> Details please, how much?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tim
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bob and Kathy
> To: kis-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 1:57 PM
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
>
> Hey TR-1 owners. I have a set of VG's for a TR-1. Never used as my TR-1 wa
s destroyed and surfaces to put them on disappeared. Will sell. Bob
>
> From: Galin Hernandez <galinhdz@gmail.com>
> To: kis-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 1:14 AM
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
>
> I had the same experience with my TR-4. The VG's on my elevator worked won
ders and it was cheaper than trying to build a bigger elevator. Also my new a
ll glass instrument panel installation is nearing completion. I hope to have
the airplane back in the air within 2-3 more weeks. You can see pictures at
my webpage: www.puertoricoflyer.com
>
> :0)
>
> On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 11:23 PM, <Flyinisfun@aol.com> wrote:
> Hi Kis Gang,
>
> I have had trouble as many of you have at landing the two place Kis. I ha
ve had to cross the fence at about 80 mph indicated with a touch down around
75. I've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the tail. I touched th
e rudder and sanded about 1/2" off the bottom of it and am lucky that was al
l. Anyway, I put VG's on the bottom side of the horizontal stabilizer, whic
h did wonders and now on the wing. For the first time, when I put the flaps
down the nose pitches down. I am crossing the fence at about 75 mph with a
true touch down at 65. I can control it and hold it off for the first time
until it sets down very gentle. I know these things have been cursed but I
will not fly again without them. It has changed the whole complexion of th
is machine. I feel that at last I have a flying machine. Any comments from
you.
>
> Jesse Wright
>
>
>
>
> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com
> .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-Li-=========
>
>
>
>
>
> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ch
ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics.com
/Navigator?KIS-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
Thanks Scott, Tim
----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Stearns
To: kis-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 6:51 PM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
Aircraft spruce has stick on VGs that work well.
On Nov 29, 2012, at 1:36 PM, "F. Tim Yoder" <ftyoder@yoderbuilt.com>
wrote:
Details please, how much?
Thanks,
Tim
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob and Kathy
To: kis-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
Hey TR-1 owners. I have a set of VG's for a TR-1. Never used as my
TR-1 was destroyed and surfaces to put them on disappeared. Will sell.
Bob
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
From: Galin Hernandez <galinhdz@gmail.com>
To: kis-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 1:14 AM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
I had the same experience with my TR-4. The VG's on my elevator
worked wonders and it was cheaper than trying to build a bigger
elevator. Also my new all glass instrument panel installation is nearing
completion. I hope to have the airplane back in the air within 2-3 more
weeks. You can see pictures at my webpage: www.puertoricoflyer.com
:0)
On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 11:23 PM, <Flyinisfun@aol.com> wrote:
Hi Kis Gang,
I have had trouble as many of you have at landing the two place
Kis. I have had to cross the fence at about 80 mph indicated with a
touch down around 75. I've tried slower only to plant it on and drag
the tail. I touched the rudder and sanded about 1/2" off the bottom of
it and am lucky that was all. Anyway, I put VG's on the bottom side of
the horizontal stabilizer, which did wonders and now on the wing. For
the first time, when I put the flaps down the nose pitches down. I am
crossing the fence at about 75 mph with a true touch down at 65. I can
control it and hold it off for the first time until it sets down very
gentle. I know these things have been cursed but I will not fly again
without them. It has changed the whole complexion of this machine. I
feel that at last I have a flying machine. Any comments from you.
Jesse Wright
_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-Li-=========
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics
.com/Navigator?KIS-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
Those are the ones I used on my TR4.
Galin
On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 7:51 PM, Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Aircraft spruce has stick on VGs that work well.
>
>
> On Nov 29, 2012, at 1:36 PM, "F. Tim Yoder" <ftyoder@yoderbuilt.com>
> wrote:
>
> Details please, how much?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tim
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Bob and Kathy <katebob10@yahoo.com>
> *To:* kis-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 29, 2012 1:57 PM
> *Subject:* Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
>
> Hey TR-1 owners. I have a set of VG's for a TR-1. Never used as my TR-1
> was destroyed and surfaces to put them on disappeared. Will sell. Bob
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Galin Hernandez <galinhdz@gmail.com>
> *To:* kis-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 29, 2012 1:14 AM
> *Subject:* Re: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
>
> I had the same experience with my TR-4. The VG's on my elevator worked
> wonders and it was cheaper than trying to build a bigger elevator. Also my
> new all glass instrument panel installation is nearing completion. I hope
> to have the airplane back in the air within 2-3 more weeks. You can see
> pictures at my webpage: www.puertoricoflyer.com
>
> :0)
>
> On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 11:23 PM, <Flyinisfun@aol.com> wrote:
>
> **
> Hi Kis Gang,
>
> I have had trouble as many of you have at landing the two place Kis. I
> have had to cross the fence at about 80 mph indicated with a touch down
> around 75. I've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the tail. I
> touched the rudder and sanded about 1/2" off the bottom of it and am lucky
> that was all. Anyway, I put VG's on the bottom side of the horizontal
> stabilizer, which did wonders and now on the wing. For the first time,
> when I put the flaps down the nose pitches down. I am crossing the fence
> at about 75 mph with a true touch down at 65. I can control it and hold it
> off for the first time until it sets down very gentle. I know these things
> have been cursed but I will not fly again without them. It has changed the
> whole complexion of this machine. I feel that at last I have a flying
> machine. Any comments from you.
>
> Jesse Wright
>
>
> *
>
> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com
> .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> *
>
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-Li-=========
> *
>
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Landing the KIS TR-1 |
I will try to get a couple of pictures and an explanation of where I
located the VG's tomorrow. Randy, I too first put the VG's on the undersi
de of
my horizontal stabilizer and it made a huge difference. The difference
just that made was seem when I went flying one day, came back and made a
crappy landing. I looked for them and surprise, they were all blown off.
I put
them on again with 3-M contact spray. It is also recommended to use
Lucite 330 glue available at the hardware store. Both of these mod's, tail
and
wing should go together. Please consider, Piper is now putting them on th
e
Mirage.
Jesse Wright
In a message dated 11/29/2012 1:04:07 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
randy.ott@gmail.com writes:
I also put the VG on my tail.... I am now considering puting them on the
wing as well.... can you please provide a picture of your wing with the VGs
installed. Tnx and how far from the door did your start palacing VGs?
Randy Ott N96BT
On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 5:23 AM, Owen Baker <_bakerocb@cox.net_
(mailto:bakerocb@cox.net) > wrote:
11/29/2012
Hello Jesse, You wrote:
Questions:
1) =9CI can control it and hold it off for the first time until it s
ets down
very gentle.=9D
When you say =9Chold it off=9D are you talking about the entir
e plane, that
is, holding the main gear off or just holding the nose wheel off after th
e
mains touch down?
2) =9CI've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the tail.
=9D
It takes a really nose high attitude while in contact with the runway to
drag the bottom of the rudder.
A) Was this rudder contact just after a hard touchdown or while rolling
out a bit?
B) What were you trying to achieve with that nose high attitude -- A slow
touch down and a short roll out?
C) Where did you have the engine power set when you were trying the slower
touch downs prior to installing the VG=99s?
D) Where do you keep the engine power now during the flare?
My Comments:
I have come to the conclusion that the KIS TR-1 as originally configured,
is just not a short field, slow touch down airplane. The technique that I
have found that works the best is:
a) Keep some engine power on (1200 =93 1300 rpm) until in ground eff
ect just
inches from the main gear touching down.
b) Keep the airspeed over the end of the runway at between 75 and 80 knots
indicated.
c) Don=99t raise the nose above the far end of the runway or the hor
izon or
you will lose track of where you are both laterally and above the runway
=93
this can lead to a harsh touchdown. The airplane must be flown visually al
l
the way to touch down of the main gear =93 =9Cwings level and
hope=9D will not
work.
d) Forget about holding the nose gear off after touch down of the mains.
It can be done, but not consistently and trying to achieve that will usual
ly
lose track of where you are in relation to the runway (see c above).
e) I think a single vortex generator on each side of the fuselage nose can
be of help (see the present versions on the Cirrus airplanes), but my
experimentation is ongoing.
OC
===
Time: 09:24:18 PM PST US
From: _Flyinisfun@aol.com_ (mailto:Flyinisfun@aol.com)
Subject: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
Hi Kis Gang,
I have had trouble as many of you have at landing the two place Kis. I
have had to cross the fence at about 80 mph indicated with a touch down
around 75.
I've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the tail. I touched
the rudder and sanded about 1/2" off the bottom of it and am lucky that
was
all.
Anyway, I put VG's on the bottom side of the horizontal stabilizer,
which did wonders and now on the wing. For the first time, when I put the
flaps down the nose pitches down. I am crossing the fence at about 75 mph
with a true touch down at 65.
I can control it and hold it off for the first time until it sets down
very gentle. I know these things have been
cursed but I will not fly again without them. It has changed the whole
complexion of this machine. I feel that at last I have a flying machine.
Any comments from you?
Jesse Wright
_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp
.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List tp://forums.matro
nics.com
(http://www.aeroelectric.com/)
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