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1. 03:12 AM - SV: Landing the KIS TR-1 (Hans Christian Erstad)
2. 08:42 PM - Re: SV: Landing the KIS TR-1 (Flyinisfun@aol.com)
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Subject: | Landing the KIS TR-1 |
Jesse and other TR-1 owners
I have now more than 500 landings in my TR-1. It was built exactly
according to the instructions, and I have not modified anything. I had
to
work on battery placement to get the C.G. correct. The aircraft is very
sensitive to C.G. and behaves differently with C.G. at max forward limit
and
max aft limit. It should not be operated with C.G. outside the limits.
The
weighing (perfectly leveled) and measuring of gear axle positions have
to be
carefully done and accurate.
The speed have to be correct and constant in the approach, and kept all
the
way down to flare (at the right moment) I use power to controll the
approach
path, and having power or no power over the fence makes hardly any
difference on how the flare and touch down.
I use slightly higher approach speed when the aircraft is heavy
(passenger
en luggage).
My experience is that when I found the correct indicated approach speed
to
use, and use that speed every time and control it accurately it is easy
to
land. Need some runway though, but need more runway anyway for takeoff
(have
a cruise prop). I have fond that using 600 meter runway is the minimum
I
should allow.
Julian Bone used his taildragger TR-1 from shorter unpaved runways in
the UK
until he landed at a too short field. Julian worked on the
wing-fuselage
intersection and reported improved handling at low speed and improved
landings after he put on much bigger fairing. I enclose a picture I took
of
Julians TR-1 in Denmark in 2004. There should be many e-mails in the
archive
of this forum discussing the wing-fuselage intersection topic
regards
Hans Christian
_____
Fra: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com] P=E5 vegne av
Flyinisfun@aol.com
Sendt: 30. november 2012 06:28
Til: kis-list@matronics.com
Emne: Re: KIS-List: Landing the KIS TR-1
I will try to get a couple of pictures and an explanation of where I
located
the VG's tomorrow. Randy, I too first put the VG's on the underside of
my
horizontal stabilizer and it made a huge difference. The difference
just
that made was seem when I went flying one day, came back and made a
crappy
landing. I looked for them and surprise, they were all blown off. I
put
them on again with 3-M contact spray. It is also recommended to use
Lucite
330 glue available at the hardware store. Both of these mod's, tail and
wing
should go together. Please consider, Piper is now putting them on the
Mirage.
Jesse Wright
In a message dated 11/29/2012 1:04:07 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
randy.ott@gmail.com writes:
I also put the VG on my tail.... I am now considering puting them on the
wing as well.... can you please provide a picture of your wing with the
VGs
installed. Tnx and how far from the door did your start palacing VGs?
Randy Ott N96BT
On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 5:23 AM, Owen Baker <bakerocb@cox.net> wrote:
11/29/2012
Hello Jesse, You wrote:
Questions:
1) =93I can control it and hold it off for the first time until it sets
down
very gentle.=94
When you say =93hold it off=94 are you talking about the entire plane,
that is,
holding the main gear off or just holding the nose wheel off after the
mains touch down?
2) =93I've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the tail.=94
It takes a really nose high attitude while in contact with the runway to
drag the bottom of the rudder.
A) Was this rudder contact just after a hard touchdown or while rolling
out
a bit?
B) What were you trying to achieve with that nose high attitude -- A
slow
touch down and a short roll out?
C) Where did you have the engine power set when you were trying the
slower
touch downs prior to installing the VG=92s?
D) Where do you keep the engine power now during the flare?
My Comments:
I have come to the conclusion that the KIS TR-1 as originally
configured, is
just not a short field, slow touch down airplane. The technique that I
have
found that works the best is:
a) Keep some engine power on (1200 ' 1300 rpm) until in ground effect
just
inches from the main gear touching down.
b) Keep the airspeed over the end of the runway at between 75 and 80
knots
indicated.
c) Don=92t raise the nose above the far end of the runway or the horizon
or
you will lose track of where you are both laterally and above the runway
'
this can lead to a harsh touchdown. The airplane must be flown visually
all
the way to touch down of the main gear ' =93wings level and hope=94
will not
work.
d) Forget about holding the nose gear off after touch down of the mains.
It
can be done, but not consistently and trying to achieve that will
usually
lose track of where you are in relation to the runway (see c above).
e) I think a single vortex generator on each side of the fuselage nose
can
be of help (see the present versions on the Cirrus airplanes), but my
experimentation is ongoing.
OC
===
Time: 09:24:18 PM PST US
From: <mailto:Flyinisfun@aol.com> Flyinisfun@aol.com
Subject: KIS-List: Vortex Generators
Hi Kis Gang,
I have had trouble as many of you have at landing the two place Kis. I
have had to cross the fence at about 80 mph indicated with a touch down
around 75.
I've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the tail. I touched
the rudder and sanded about 1/2" off the bottom of it and am lucky that
was
all.
Anyway, I put VG's on the bottom side of the horizontal stabilizer,
which did wonders and now on the wing. For the first time, when I put
the
flaps down the nose pitches down. I am crossing the fence at about 75
mph
with a true touch down at 65.
I can control it and hold it off for the first time until it sets down
very
gentle. I know these things have been
cursed but I will not fly again without them. It has changed the whole
complexion of this machine. I feel that at last I have a flying machine.
Any comments from you?
Jesse Wright
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Subject: | Re: Landing the KIS TR-1 |
Hans,
Your description of the problems experienced with this plane is exactly
what I'm addressing. I can land my TR-1 as you have described if I carry
speed and come in flat, no descent angle. If the descent angle is too high
the plane will drop right through any breaking descent and go right on the
runway. It has lost it's lift on the wings. Too much rate of descent and
you better make a go-around, one mis-judgement and you can buy the farm, I've
almost done that. Your right about the CG. It must be so everything
stays in the envelope, no guess work here. I moved my batteries forward 28"
and got every loading condition in the envelope. I weighed and re-weighed my
plane with it empty, loaded, with me in it, out of it, with passenger,
without. These VG's give more lift, safety of erro, better control. I can see
me coming in some day with a gusting, quartering cross wind, cross
controlling it to keep it straight down the runway with flight instruments
bouncing all over the place and loose it when with a little help from something
like this will save the day. What do I have to loose. It seems it's more
about what I have to gain. This is not to say that Rich and Vance did a bad
job of engineering all this, this just improves their design. I can land
with a very respectable rate of descent and it doesn't drop out from under
me because it has lost it's lift. Commercial airliners see a real
advantage using these, look out on the wing the next time you fly in one.
Jesse
Jesse and other TR-1 owners
I have now more than 500 landings in my TR-1. It was built exactly
according to the instructions, and I have not modified anything. I had to work
on battery placement to get the C.G. correct. The aircraft is very
sensitive to C.G. and behaves differently with C.G. at max forward limit and max
aft limit. It should not be operated with C.G. outside the limits. The
weighing (perfectly leveled) and measuring of gear axle positions have to be
carefully done and accurate.
The speed have to be correct and constant in the approach, and kept all
the way down to flare (at the right moment) I use power to controll the
approach path, and having power or no power over the fence makes hardly any
difference on how the flare and touch down.
I use slightly higher approach speed when the aircraft is heavy (passenger
en luggage).
My experience is that when I found the correct indicated approach speed to
use, and use that speed every time and control it accurately it is easy to
land. Need some runway though, but need more runway anyway for takeoff
(have a cruise prop). I have fond that using 600 meter runway is the minimum
I should allow.
Julian Bone used his taildragger TR-1 from shorter unpaved runways in the
UK until he landed at a too short field. Julian worked on the
wing-fuselage intersection and reported improved handling at low speed and improved
landings after he put on much bigger fairing. I enclose a picture I took of
Julians TR-1 in Denmark in 2004. There should be many e-mails in the archive
of this forum discussing the wing-fuselage intersection topic
regards
Hans Christian
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