---------------------------------------------------------- KIS-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 12/01/12: 2 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:12 AM - SV: Landing the KIS TR-1 (Hans Christian Erstad) 2. 08:42 PM - Re: SV: Landing the KIS TR-1 (Flyinisfun@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:12:09 AM PST US From: "Hans Christian Erstad" Subject: SV: KIS-List: Landing the KIS TR-1 Jesse and other TR-1 owners I have now more than 500 landings in my TR-1. It was built exactly according to the instructions, and I have not modified anything. I had to work on battery placement to get the C.G. correct. The aircraft is very sensitive to C.G. and behaves differently with C.G. at max forward limit and max aft limit. It should not be operated with C.G. outside the limits. The weighing (perfectly leveled) and measuring of gear axle positions have to be carefully done and accurate. The speed have to be correct and constant in the approach, and kept all the way down to flare (at the right moment) I use power to controll the approach path, and having power or no power over the fence makes hardly any difference on how the flare and touch down. I use slightly higher approach speed when the aircraft is heavy (passenger en luggage). My experience is that when I found the correct indicated approach speed to use, and use that speed every time and control it accurately it is easy to land. Need some runway though, but need more runway anyway for takeoff (have a cruise prop). I have fond that using 600 meter runway is the minimum I should allow. Julian Bone used his taildragger TR-1 from shorter unpaved runways in the UK until he landed at a too short field. Julian worked on the wing-fuselage intersection and reported improved handling at low speed and improved landings after he put on much bigger fairing. I enclose a picture I took of Julians TR-1 in Denmark in 2004. There should be many e-mails in the archive of this forum discussing the wing-fuselage intersection topic regards Hans Christian _____ Fra: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com] P=E5 vegne av Flyinisfun@aol.com Sendt: 30. november 2012 06:28 Til: kis-list@matronics.com Emne: Re: KIS-List: Landing the KIS TR-1 I will try to get a couple of pictures and an explanation of where I located the VG's tomorrow. Randy, I too first put the VG's on the underside of my horizontal stabilizer and it made a huge difference. The difference just that made was seem when I went flying one day, came back and made a crappy landing. I looked for them and surprise, they were all blown off. I put them on again with 3-M contact spray. It is also recommended to use Lucite 330 glue available at the hardware store. Both of these mod's, tail and wing should go together. Please consider, Piper is now putting them on the Mirage. Jesse Wright In a message dated 11/29/2012 1:04:07 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, randy.ott@gmail.com writes: I also put the VG on my tail.... I am now considering puting them on the wing as well.... can you please provide a picture of your wing with the VGs installed. Tnx and how far from the door did your start palacing VGs? Randy Ott N96BT On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 5:23 AM, Owen Baker wrote: 11/29/2012 Hello Jesse, You wrote: Questions: 1) =93I can control it and hold it off for the first time until it sets down very gentle.=94 When you say =93hold it off=94 are you talking about the entire plane, that is, holding the main gear off or just holding the nose wheel off after the mains touch down? 2) =93I've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the tail.=94 It takes a really nose high attitude while in contact with the runway to drag the bottom of the rudder. A) Was this rudder contact just after a hard touchdown or while rolling out a bit? B) What were you trying to achieve with that nose high attitude -- A slow touch down and a short roll out? C) Where did you have the engine power set when you were trying the slower touch downs prior to installing the VG=92s? D) Where do you keep the engine power now during the flare? My Comments: I have come to the conclusion that the KIS TR-1 as originally configured, is just not a short field, slow touch down airplane. The technique that I have found that works the best is: a) Keep some engine power on (1200 ' 1300 rpm) until in ground effect just inches from the main gear touching down. b) Keep the airspeed over the end of the runway at between 75 and 80 knots indicated. c) Don=92t raise the nose above the far end of the runway or the horizon or you will lose track of where you are both laterally and above the runway ' this can lead to a harsh touchdown. The airplane must be flown visually all the way to touch down of the main gear ' =93wings level and hope=94 will not work. d) Forget about holding the nose gear off after touch down of the mains. It can be done, but not consistently and trying to achieve that will usually lose track of where you are in relation to the runway (see c above). e) I think a single vortex generator on each side of the fuselage nose can be of help (see the present versions on the Cirrus airplanes), but my experimentation is ongoing. OC === Time: 09:24:18 PM PST US From: Flyinisfun@aol.com Subject: KIS-List: Vortex Generators Hi Kis Gang, I have had trouble as many of you have at landing the two place Kis. I have had to cross the fence at about 80 mph indicated with a touch down around 75. I've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the tail. I touched the rudder and sanded about 1/2" off the bottom of it and am lucky that was all. Anyway, I put VG's on the bottom side of the horizontal stabilizer, which did wonders and now on the wing. For the first time, when I put the flaps down the nose pitches down. I am crossing the fence at about 75 mph with a true touch down at 65. I can control it and hold it off for the first time until it sets down very gentle. I know these things have been cursed but I will not fly again without them. It has changed the whole complexion of this machine. I feel that at last I have a flying machine. Any comments from you? Jesse Wright _blank">www.aeroelectric.com .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List tp://forums.matronics.com tp://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.com / href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics.com /Navi gator?KIS-List s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:42:37 PM PST US From: Flyinisfun@aol.com Subject: Re: SV: KIS-List: Landing the KIS TR-1 Hans, Your description of the problems experienced with this plane is exactly what I'm addressing. I can land my TR-1 as you have described if I carry speed and come in flat, no descent angle. If the descent angle is too high the plane will drop right through any breaking descent and go right on the runway. It has lost it's lift on the wings. Too much rate of descent and you better make a go-around, one mis-judgement and you can buy the farm, I've almost done that. Your right about the CG. It must be so everything stays in the envelope, no guess work here. I moved my batteries forward 28" and got every loading condition in the envelope. I weighed and re-weighed my plane with it empty, loaded, with me in it, out of it, with passenger, without. These VG's give more lift, safety of erro, better control. I can see me coming in some day with a gusting, quartering cross wind, cross controlling it to keep it straight down the runway with flight instruments bouncing all over the place and loose it when with a little help from something like this will save the day. What do I have to loose. It seems it's more about what I have to gain. This is not to say that Rich and Vance did a bad job of engineering all this, this just improves their design. I can land with a very respectable rate of descent and it doesn't drop out from under me because it has lost it's lift. Commercial airliners see a real advantage using these, look out on the wing the next time you fly in one. Jesse Jesse and other TR-1 owners I have now more than 500 landings in my TR-1. It was built exactly according to the instructions, and I have not modified anything. I had to work on battery placement to get the C.G. correct. The aircraft is very sensitive to C.G. and behaves differently with C.G. at max forward limit and max aft limit. It should not be operated with C.G. outside the limits. The weighing (perfectly leveled) and measuring of gear axle positions have to be carefully done and accurate. The speed have to be correct and constant in the approach, and kept all the way down to flare (at the right moment) I use power to controll the approach path, and having power or no power over the fence makes hardly any difference on how the flare and touch down. I use slightly higher approach speed when the aircraft is heavy (passenger en luggage). My experience is that when I found the correct indicated approach speed to use, and use that speed every time and control it accurately it is easy to land. Need some runway though, but need more runway anyway for takeoff (have a cruise prop). I have fond that using 600 meter runway is the minimum I should allow. Julian Bone used his taildragger TR-1 from shorter unpaved runways in the UK until he landed at a too short field. Julian worked on the wing-fuselage intersection and reported improved handling at low speed and improved landings after he put on much bigger fairing. I enclose a picture I took of Julians TR-1 in Denmark in 2004. There should be many e-mails in the archive of this forum discussing the wing-fuselage intersection topic regards Hans Christian ____________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kis-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/KIS-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kis-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kis-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.