---------------------------------------------------------- KIS-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 03/06/13: 3 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 10:12 AM - SV: SV: SV: IO-240 alternator drive coupling (Hans Christian Erstad) 2. 12:10 PM - Fw: Pilot Exchanges (ALFRED ROSA) 3. 01:19 PM - Re: Fw: Pilot Exchanges (Robert Reed) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 10:12:40 AM PST US From: "Hans Christian Erstad" Subject: SV: SV: SV: KIS-List: IO-240 alternator drive coupling Thanks for sharing your experience and photo I agree that "TCM should issue an apology". An idea, maybe I should try writing them. Hans Christian -----Opprinnelig melding----- Fra: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com] P vegne av Keith.Miller@esa.int Sendt: 5. mars 2013 09:28 Til: Hans Christian Erstad Emne: Re: SV: SV: KIS-List: IO-240 alternator drive coupling Hans , yours looks actually worse than mine ( see picture) but the same failure mode, I agree this design will always wear out with age hardening and the hot oil, Not sure why TCM switched from the old design to the new design , As my engine shop has never heard of a failure or problem with the old design, maybe TCM thought they could make a few $ on the spares market , When I rang around the Chop shops , none had one in stock, hence i went to the refurbish solution . But since the chop shops all know about this part and they know the price of the TCM new parts they price the old design accordingly. One told me he sells the old style coupling for 300 Pounds complete or for just 50 pounds more he would throw in the Alternator . I think TCM should issue an apology to all owners ( since the new couplings are used on most new TCM designs) and switch back to the old design , or price the part at what its actually costs (TCM are not buying them at 1100 $ each ) Keith (See attached file: DSCF5932.jpg) |------------> | From: | |------------> >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------| |"Hans Christian Erstad" | >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------| |------------> | To: | |------------> >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------| | | >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------| |------------> | Date: | |------------> >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------| |04/03/2013 21:47 | >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------| |------------> | Subject: | |------------> >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------| |SV: SV: KIS-List: IO-240 alternator drive coupling | >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------| Keith Yes, I remember your postings from last summer. I was hoping my standard Gill battery was not able to draw much charging current and my coupling would last longer. That was all wrong. I think time, heat and oil just eat the rubber away. Perhaps it will fail regardless of generator load. I enclose a photo. I have a friend that has som extra O-200 parts - a generator with the old style coupling. If I am lucky I can use parts from this and buy new the components that SB95-3B require to be replaced every 500h. ($42 @Spruce) Thanks to this forum I had a wealth of information about the generator problem - even before I had the problem :-) Thanks a lot Keith and others. Hans Christian -----Opprinnelig melding----- Fra: Keith.Miller@esa.int [mailto:Keith.Miller@esa.int] Sendt: 4. mars 2013 10:07 Til: kis-list@matronics.com Kopi: hans-chr.erstad@c2i.net Emne: Re: SV: KIS-List: IO-240 alternator drive coupling Hans I posted quite a bit on this point back in July 2012 , when mine failed at about 400 hours . I didn't follow the post up with my solution (Sorry) , but in the end I went for an overhauled part through Aircraft quality accessories in the USA ( see OC posting for the Link ) they were very fast at sending the unit to me ( Too fast in my opinion as they used an expensive courier service ) , Part itself is expensive for what it actually is, but they returned the $500 deposit as soon as they received my old core. I did all the research (as per Johns note) about replacing the unit with the old mechanical solution , and I agree with John. The old mechanical design should not fail due its simplistic design, whereas the new one piece coupling is always going to fail eventually as the rubber gets old , and once it starts to slip it will rapidly wear out- but good news is is that it can not damage the engine , just a bit of fine rubber residue in the oil . When I spoke with Aircraft quality accessories, they said it was a regular replacement part ( 2 to 3 per week ) ,and they did quite good business out of this part. ,they also told me that they get more orders in the hot summer months , when owners are switching on the Airco and loading the alternator to a max before they get into the air, and that it is unlikely to survive for long periods when there is a max current draw from the 60amp TCM alternator. In my case I put my failure down to my decision to switch to a Lithium Phosphate main battery without first redesigning the charging circuit , since these batteries demands huge currents from the alternator just after start up. Replacement process is quite easy , took me about 4 hours in total ( requires the removal of one magneto to get to one of the bolts - no way around that ) Good luck with your decision and replacement, Keith |------------> | From: | |------------> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >---- ---------------------------------------------------------------------| |"Hans Christian Erstad" | >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >---- ---------------------------------------------------------------------| |------------> | To: | |------------> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >---- ---------------------------------------------------------------------| | | >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >---- ---------------------------------------------------------------------| |------------> | Date: | |------------> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >---- ---------------------------------------------------------------------| |03/03/2013 21:00 | >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >---- ---------------------------------------------------------------------| |------------> | Subject: | |------------> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >---- ---------------------------------------------------------------------| |SV: KIS-List: IO-240 alternator drive coupling | >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >---- ---------------------------------------------------------------------| |------------> | Sent by: | |------------> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >---- ---------------------------------------------------------------------| |owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com | >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >---- ---------------------------------------------------------------------| Thanks OC Yes, it sound like I have identified all options - and there are quite a few. Looking at the failed on-piece coupling, I think it is not designed to last, only to make money :-) I think the best option is to find used parts for the multi piece coupling, but buy new the bushing and retainer that according to SB95-3B is to be replaced every 500h. This Service Bulletin have been useful providing information on part numbers, torque etc. However it seems like the one-piece coupling never reaches 500h, so the SB is to no help there, apart from stating "The one piece coupling may be substituted for the coupling assembly shown in Figure 1." Maybe they issued the SB to infrom about this substitution when they realized that the one-piece is flawed. The SB calls for the couling to be tested for 100 inch punds of torque. Probably all 500h couplings will fail this test? and will require replacement with the substitute. Anyone know about a 500h coupling that have passed the test? Regards Hans Christian Fra: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com [ mailto:owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com] P vegne av Owen Baker Sendt: 3. mars 2013 14:08 Til: ERSTAD HANS-CHRISTIAN; KIS-LIST MATRONICS Emne: KIS-List: IO-240 alternator drive coupling 3/3/2013 Hello Hans Christian, I am sorry to read of your alternator drive coupling problem. The attached copy of TCM SB95-3B provides some relevant information. I think that you have a very good grasp of the four solutions to the problem. They are: a) purchase and install the multi piece coupling, b) convert to a front drive alternator, c) purchase and install a one piece coupling from CMI (Continental Motors Inc. -- new name), purchase and install an aftermarket rebuilt one piece coupling. Regarding each solution: a) The multi piece coupling was replaced by the one piece coupling as the one piece coupling was considered superior. That point may be debated. b) The IO-240 B3B engine in the Diamond DA 20-C1 airplane uses the front mounted alternator. One could maybe source the parts needed from a Diamond aircraft dealer. I dont know if that model airplane was ever introduced outside of the USA and Canada. In addition to obtaining and installing the front of the engine parts needed one would also have to seal off the left open alternator drive access hole in the rear of the engine. c) Purchase a one piece coupling from CMI. The most expensive initial course of action. d) The aftermarket one piece coupling can be purchased from these people: http://www.qualityaircraftaccessories.com/Default.aspx?A=ProductSearch&ID=/s earch-results&SE=True&q=635796 for an initial cost of $1,095.00 US. They are supposed to refund $500 US of that when they receive your returned old one piece core. Please let me know if I can be of further help. OC 'O C' Baker says "The best investment you can make is the effort to gather and understand information." ========================== From: Hans Christian Erstad Sent: Mar 2, 2013 12:55 PM Subject: KIS-List: IO-240 alternator drive coupling I have read several postings about early failure of the IO-240 alternator drive coupling (P/N 635796). The coupling failed now at 337 hours in my IO-240 powered KIS. From other postings, it seems like this part never reaches 500 h, and cost a fortune to buy new (more than $2000), but may be overhauled for $600. The failure rates indicate to mee that this part (too) is a bad design. Apparently it is possible to replace the one piece coupling, with one that contain of several parts (531325, 530407, 632050, 653982, 653983) and have been used on other Continental (e.g. O-200). What have the experience been for you that have IO-240 ? Any suggestion for best place to get the one-piece overhauled? or suggestions for where to buy the serveal-piece alternative? Regards Hans Christian Erstad This message and any attachments are intended for the use of the addressee or addressees only. The unauthorised disclosure, use, dissemination or copying (either in whole or in part) of its content is not permitted. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Emails can be altered and their integrity cannot be guaranteed by the sender. Please consider the environment before printing this email. [attachment "IMG_1904.JPG" deleted by Keith Miller/estec/ESA] This message and any attachments are intended for the use of the addressee or addressees only. The unauthorised disclosure, use, dissemination or copying (either in whole or in part) of its content is not permitted. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Emails can be altered and their integrity cannot be guaranteed by the sender. Please consider the environment before printing this email. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:10:20 PM PST US Subject: KIS-List: Fwd: Pilot Exchanges From: ALFRED ROSA ----- Don't know if real or not...sending them because they're funny *Actual exchanges between pilots and control towers. * * Tower: **"Delta 351, you have traffic at 10 o'clock, 6 miles!"* *Delta 351: **"Give us another hint! We have digital watches!"* *___________________________________* * Tower: **"TWA 2341, for noise abatement turn right 45 Degrees."* *TWA 2341: **"Center, we are at 35,000 feet. How much noise can we* *make up here?"* *Tower: **"Sir, have you ever heard the noise a 747 makes when it hits a 727?" ** * *___________________________________* * **O'Hare Approach Control to a 747: **"United 329 heavy, your traffic is a Fokker, one o'clock, three miles, Eastbound."* *United 329: **"Approach, I've always wanted to say this....I've got the little Fokker in sight." ** * *___________________________________* * **A student became lost during a solo cross-country flight. While attempting to locate the aircraft on radar, ATC asked, **"What was your last known position?"* * ** **Student: **"When I was number one for takeoff." ** * *___________________________________* * **A DC-10 had come in a little hot and thus had an exceedingly long roll out after touching down. San Jose Tower Noted:* *"American 751, make a hard right turn at the end of the runway, if you are able. If you are not able, take the Guadeloupe exit off Highway 101, make a right at the lights and return to the airport." ** * *___________________________________* *A Pan Am 727 flight, waiting for start clearance in Munich, overheard the following:* * Lufthansa (in German):* *"Ground, what is our start clearance time?"* *Ground (in English): **"If you want an answer you must speak in English." * *Lufthansa (in English): **"I am a German, flying a German airplane, in* *Germany . Why must I speak English?"* *Unknown voice from another plane (in a beautiful British accent):* *"Because you lost the bloody war!" ** * *___________________________________* * Tower: **"Eastern 702, cleared for takeoff, contact Departure on frequency 124.7"* *Eastern 702: **"Tower, Eastern 702 switching to Departure. By the way, after we lifted off we saw some kind of dead animal on the far end of the runway."* *Tower: **"Continental 635, cleared for takeoff behind Eastern 702, contact Departure on frequency 124.7. Did you copy that report from* *Eastern 702?"* *Continental 635: **"Continental 635, cleared for takeoff, roger; and yes, we copied Eastern.... we've already notified our caterers." ** * * One day the pilot of a Cherokee 180 was told by the tower to hold short of the active runway while a DC-8 landed. The DC-8 landed, rolled out, turned around, and taxied back past the Cherokee. Some quick-witted comedian in the DC-8 crew got on the radio and said,* *"What a cute little plane. Did you make it all by yourself?"* *The Cherokee pilot, not about to let the insult go by, came back with a real zinger:* *"I made it out of DC-8 parts. Another landing like yours and I'll have enough parts for another one." ** * *_____ ______________________________* * **The German air controllers at Frankfurt Airport are renowned as a short-tempered lot. They not only expect one to know one's gate parking location, but how to get there without any assistance from them. So it was with some amusement that we (a Pan* *Am 747) listened to the following exchange between Frankfurt ground control and a British Airways 747,* *call sign Speedbird 206.* * Speedbird 206:** **" Frankfurt , Speedbird 206! clear of active runway." * *Ground: **"Speedbird 206.. Taxi to gate Alpha One-Seven."* *The BA 747 pulled onto the main taxiway and slowed to a stop.* * **Ground: **"Speedbird, do you not know where you are going?"* *Speedbird 206: **"Stand by, Ground, I'm looking up our gate location now."* *Ground (with quite arrogant impatience) **: **"Speedbird 206, have you not been to Frankfurt before?"* *Speedbird 206 (coolly): **"Yes, twice in 1944, but it was dark, -- And I didn't land." ** * *___________________________________* * ** **While taxiing at London's Airport, the crew of a US Air flight departing for Ft Lauderdale made a wrong turn and* *came nose to nose with a United 727.* *An irate female ground controller lashed out at the US Air crew, screaming: **"US Air 2771, where the hell are you going? I told you to turn right onto Charlie taxiway! You turned right on Delta! Stop right there. I know it's difficult for you to tell the difference between C and D, but get it right!"* *Continuing her rage to the embarrassed crew, she was now shouting hysterically:* *"God! Now you've screwed everything up! It'll take forever to sort this out! You stay right there and don't move till I tell you to! You can expect progressive taxi instructions in about half an hour, and I want you to* *go exactly where I tell you, when I tell you, and how I tell you! You got that, US Air 2771?"* *"Yes, ma'am," **the humbled crew responded.* *Naturally, the ground control communications frequency fell terribly silent after the verbal bashing of US Air 2771.* *Nobody wanted to chance engaging the irate ground controller in her current state of mind.* *Tension in every cockpit out around Gatwick was definitely running high. Just then an unknown pilot broke the* *silence and keyed his microphone, asking:* *"Wasn't I married to you once?"* ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:19:25 PM PST US From: Robert Reed Subject: Re: KIS-List: Fwd: Pilot Exchanges THANKS AL-- !!!!- =0A=0AIt's been one of those days and I REALLY NEED ED that!!!=0A=0ABob Reed=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AF rom: ALFRED ROSA =0ATo: kisbuilders =0ASent: Wed, March 6, 2013 2:10:28 PM=0ASubject: KIS-List: Fwd: Pilo t Exchanges=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A>>-=0A>>=0A>>------ Don't know if re al or not...sending them because they're funny=0A>>Actual exchanges between pilots and control towers. =0A>>-=0A>>>>-=0A>>>>- Tower:-"Delta 35 1, you have traffic at 10 o'clock, 6 miles!"=0A>>>>Delta 351: "Give us anot her hint! We have digital watches!"=0A>>>>-=0A>>>>-=0A>>>>_____________ ______________________=0A>>>>-=0A>>>>-=0A>>>>-=0A>>>>- Tower: "TWA 2341, for noise abatement turn right 45 Degrees."=0A>>>>TWA- 2341: "Cente r, we are at 35,000 feet. How much noise can we=0A>>>>make up here?"=0A>>>> Tower: "Sir, have you ever heard the noise a 747 makes when it hits a 727?" =0A-=0A>>>>-=0A>>>>-=0A>>>>___________________________________=0A>>> >-=0A>>>>-=0A>>>>-=0A>>>>- O'Hare Approach Control to a 747: "Unite d 329 heavy, your traffic is a Fokker, =0A>>>>one o'clock, three miles, Eas tbound."=0A>>>>United 329: "Approach, I've always wanted to say- this.... I've got the little =0A>>>>Fokker in sight." -=0A>>>>-=0A>>>>-=0A>>>> ___________________________________=0A>>>>-=0A>>>>-=0A>>>>-=0A>>>>- A student became lost during a solo cross-country flight. While attempting to =0A>>>>locate the aircraft on radar, ATC asked, "What was- your last known position?"=0A>>>>--Student: "When I was number one for takeoff." -=0A>>>>-=0A>>>>-=0A>>>>___________________________________=0A>>>>- =0A>>>>-=0A>>>>- A DC-10 had come in a little hot and thus had an excee dingly long roll out =0A>>>>after touching down. San Jose Tower Noted:=0A>> >>"American 751, make a hard right turn at the end of the runway, if you ar e able. =0A>>>>If you are not able, take the Guadeloupe exit off Highway 10 1, make a right at =0A>>>>the lights and return to the airport." -=0A>>>> -=0A>>>>-=0A>>>>___________________________________=0A>>>>-=0A>>>>- =0A>>>>-=0A>>>>-=0A>>>>A Pan Am 727 flight, waiting for start clearance in Munich, overheard the =0A>>>>following:=0A>>>>- Lufthansa (in German) :=0A>>>>"Ground, what is our start clearance time?"=0A>>>>Ground (in- Eng lish): "If you want an answer you must speak in English."=0A>>>>Lufthansa ( in- English): "I am a German, flying a German airplane, in=0A>>>>Germany . Why must I speak English?"=0A>>>>Unknown voice from another plane- (in a beautiful British accent):=0A>>>>"Because you lost the bloody war!" - =0A>>>>-=0A>>>>-=0A>>>>___________________________________=0A>>>>-=0A >>>>-=0A>>>>-=0A>>>>- Tower: "Eastern 702, cleared for takeoff, conta ct Departure on frequency =0A>>>>124.7"=0A>>>>Eastern- 702: "Tower, Easte rn 702 switching to Departure. By the way, after we =0A>>>>lifted off we sa w some kind of dead animal on the far end of the runway."=0A>>>>Tower: "Con tinental 635, cleared for takeoff behind Eastern 702, contact =0A>>>>Depart ure on frequency 124.7. Did you copy that report- from=0A>>>>Eastern 702? "=0A>>>>Continental 635: "Continental 635, cleared for takeoff, roger; and yes, we =0A>>>>copied Eastern.... we've already notified our caterers." - =0A>>>>-=0A>>>>-=0A>>>>-=0A>>>>-=0A>>>>- One day the pilot of a C herokee 180 was told by the tower to hold short of the =0A>>>>active runway while a DC-8 landed. The DC-8 landed, rolled out, turned around, =0A>>>>an d taxied back past the Cherokee. Some quick-witted comedian in the DC-8 cre w =0A>>>>got on the radio and said,=0A>>>>"What a cute little plane. Did yo u make it all by yourself?"=0A>>>>The Cherokee pilot, not about to let the insult go by, came back with a real =0A>>>>zinger:=0A>>>>"I made it out of DC-8 parts. Another landing like yours and I'll have enough =0A>>>>parts fo r another one." -=0A>>>>-=0A>>>>-=0A>>>>_____ _______________________ _______=0A>>>>-=0A>>>>-=0A>>>>-=0A>>>>- The German air controllers at Frankfurt Airport are renowned as a =0A>>>>short-tempered lot. They not only expect one to know one's gate parking =0A>>>>location, but how to get there without any assistance from them.- So it was with =0A>>>>some amuse ment that we (a Pan=0A>>>>Am 747) listened to the following exchange betwee n Frankfurt ground control and =0A>>>>a British Airways 747,=0A>>>>call sig n Speedbird 206.=0A>>>>- Speedbird 206:-" Frankfurt , Speedbird 206! cl ear of active runway."=0A>>>>Ground: "Speedbird 206.. Taxi to gate Alpha On e-Seven."=0A>>>>The BA 747 pulled onto the main taxiway and slowed to a sto p.=0A>>>>-=0A>>>>- Ground: "Speedbird, do you not know where you are go ing?"=0A>>>>Speedbird- 206: "Stand by, Ground, I'm looking up our gate lo cation now."=0A>>>>Ground (with quite arrogant- impatience) : "Speedbird 206, have you not been to =0A>>>>Frankfurt before?"=0A>>>>Speedbird 206- (coolly): "Yes, twice in 1944, but it was dark, -- And I didn't =0A>>>>land ." -=0A>>>>-=0A>>>>-=0A>>>>___________________________________=0A>>>> -=0A>>>>-=0A>>>>- - While taxiing at London's Airport, the crew of a US Air flight departing for =0A>>>>Ft Lauderdale made a wrong turn and=0A >>>>came nose to nose with a United 727.=0A>>>>An irate female ground contr oller lashed out at the US Air crew, screaming: "US =0A>>>>Air 2771, where the hell are you going? I told you to turn right onto Charlie =0A>>>>taxiwa y! You turned right on Delta! Stop right there. I know it's difficult for =0A>>>>you to tell the difference between C and D, but get it right!"=0A>>> >Continuing her rage to the embarrassed crew, she was now shouting =0A>>hys terically:=0A>>>>"God! Now you've screwed everything up! It'll take forever to sort this out! You =0A>>>>stay right there and don't move till I tell y ou to! You can expect progressive =0A>>>>taxi instructions in about half an hour, and I want you to=0A>>>>go exactly where I tell you, when I tell you , and how I tell you! You got that, =0A>>>>US Air 2771?"=0A>>>>"Yes, ma'am, " the humbled crew responded.=0A>>>>-=0A>>>>Naturally, the ground control communications frequency fell terribly silent =0A>>>>after the verbal bash ing of US Air 2771.=0A>>>>Nobody wanted to chance engaging the irate ground controller in her current =0A>>>>state of mind.=0A>>>>Tension in every coc kpit out around Gatwick was definitely running high. Just =0A>>>>then an un known pilot broke the=0A>>>>silence and keyed his microphone, asking:=0A>>> >-=0A>>>>"Wasn't I married to you once?"=0A>>>>-=0A>>>>-=0A>>>>-=0A ======== =0A ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kis-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/KIS-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kis-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kis-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.