Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:20 AM - Re: KIS kit suppliers - who supplied what (Robert Reed)
2. 12:40 PM - Re: Control Force Harmony (jerzy krasinski)
3. 03:00 PM - Re: Control Force Harmony (Galin Hernandez)
4. 03:11 PM - Re: Control Force Harmony (Tim Yoder)
5. 03:15 PM - Re: Control Force Harmony (Tim Yoder)
6. 11:14 PM - Re: Control Force Harmony (jerzy krasinski)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: KIS kit suppliers - who supplied what |
Mark,=0A=0AThank you so much for all of your support.- This will be helpf
ul to everyone.=0A=0AThanks,=0A=0ABob Reed=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A__________________
______________=0AFrom: mark_trickel <marktrickel@gmail.com>=0ATo: kis-list@
matronics.com=0ASent: Sun, April 21, 2013 1:21:05 PM=0ASubject: KIS-List: K
mark_trickel" <marktrickel@gmail.com>=0A=0AThere is not much about the supp
liers that is not already known but I'll give it =0Aa shot. Rich tooled up
14 airplanes at High Tech Composites so traffic in and =0Aout of the shop w
as pretty heavy. It was easy to network with the other kitplane =0Aguys and
share information on suppliers for the different components. Many of =0Ath
e parts used on the KIS are closely related to the Lancair, after all Lance
=0Awas a partner in High Tech Composites and Rich tooled ALL of those desi
gns and =0Asupplied more than 400 complete sets of composite parts and then
supplied parts =0Aas needed after Lance moved the operation overseas (wher
e it still is).=0A=0AHardware - Rich had OEM pricing from Aircraft Spruce,
and this is where the bulk =0Aof these items came from. The California ware
house was only about 100 miles away =0Aand you can bet the Tri-R crew made
a few trips there when they built the TR-4 =0ACruiser in 73 days from dinne
r napkin sketches to flying in 1994. During regular =0Aproduction if they r
an short of composite supplies or anything else they could =0Aquickly get t
he things they needed to move kits out the door. Rich also had and =0AOEM d
eal with Gruden for the door gas struts, those numbers are floating around
=0Athe forum somewhere and struts are readily available. There were other s
uppliers =0Afor some of the odds and ends. If Rich could find a better deal
somewhere else =0Ahe would take advantage of the source, but I can't recal
l any specifics. I will =0Abe checking in with Rich's early employees Chuck
H. and Steve R. (they will be =0Ain shock to learn I have the McCormick TR
-1C, they both knew Ken McCormick) and =0Asee if they can recall any in!=0A
formation on the vendors. =0A=0AMetal parts - formed and welded - OC is spo
t on, Ken Brock was the main supplier =0Aof these parts, and yes, Rich had
problems with the quality that came out of =0AKen's shop. I stressed this i
n a past post and I am going to stress this again - =0Aif you are flying th
e factory rudder pedals I urge you to inspect them as part =0Aof your prefl
ight. For those who missed post about them, a couple of builders =0Ahad bro
ught rudder pedal sets back to us at Oshkosh, bent with cracks or breaks
=0Aat the welds. Just last spring Jason Hill experienced a broken rudder pe
dal on =0Alanding and now the airplane has been totaled out. Rich and Ken d
id try to work =0Aout the issues that came up but at this point there is no
way of knowing who got =0Awhat parts. Most problems were with the earlier
TR-1 kits but I would not rule =0Aout any of the welded metal parts. As a p
ilot you depend on these parts doing =0Atheir job and only close monitoring
can ensure that. Sadly Ken died in 1999, and =0Ahis shop was sold off but
I do not !=0Athink the new owner continued to supply the aviation industry.
OC was correct =0Aagain, as time pasted during production Rich replaced ma
ny of the welded parts =0Awith machined metal parts from Lyle Hendrick. Lyl
e also provided some welded =0Aparts near the end of production including n
ose landing gears. Any CNC parts =0ALyle supplied are still available. He m
aintains the files used to make these =0Aparts and they can be replicated e
asily.=0A=0AVance and parts - You may know Vance was a real rocket scientis
t, he worked for =0ARocketdyne and he specifically worked on the Apollo Lun
ar Modular propulsion =0Asystems. For a kid like me that used to get sick o
n splashdown days so I could =0Astay home and watch, talking to Vance about
the space stuff...it just couldn't =0Aget any better. They probably design
ed that stuff on dinner napkins too! Vance =0Ahas 6 patents in his name, mo
st about forming rocket engine nozzles. Vance was =0Athe consummate tinkere
r, and he had a really cool shop at his house with lots of =0Aneat things a
nd a bunch of machine tools. Rich's name is on the front of KIS but =0Awe a
ll know Vance was the real moving force behind KIS (Nate Rambo, Chuck =0AHa
rrison, Steve Ruege, and Mark Kettering put a lot of work into KIS too). Va
nce =0Adid provide a few other small parts for the KIS project beside the n
ose gears. =0AExactly what parts they were I am uncertain but I need a few
things for my KIS =0Aand if Lyle doesn't have files for what I!=0A- need
I'll know Vance made them. I will have to keep you posted on that =0Ainform
ation.=0A=0ALanding Gear - =0AMain Gear - The aluminum main landing gear fo
r the TR-1 had 4 different =0Asuppliers. Some of them came from Aircraft Sp
ruce, some came from other =0Asuppliers, but the last supplier was Lyle. I
do not know who the other suppliers =0Awere, probably some local machine sh
op or possibly somebody that supplied one of =0Athe other kitplane sellers
Rich was associated with. I would guess any kits sold =0Aafter late 1993 we
re supplied by Lyle. All the TR-4 main gears came from Lyle. =0A=0A=0ANose
Gear - Early TR-1 nose gears came from Ken Brock. This gear was sold with
=0Akits probably until 1996 or 1997. So many builders had problems with the
nose =0Agear getting bent, PIO, and all that bad stuff. For the record Ric
h welded his =0Aown nose gear, its still on the airplane rusting away in th
at funky third world =0Acountry, and neither he or any of the few pilots he
let fly the airplane never =0Abanged it! Rich was above all else an incred
ible pilot. I think there was 3 =0Aversion of the early nose gear before Va
nce and Lyle came up with the current =0Aversion with sock and springs that
could take some abuse (like we all used to do =0Ato those trusty 150s, 152
s, and Cherokees). The early TR-4 steerable nose was =0Amostly made by Vanc
e, this is where he pioneered the shock and spring set up. =0ALyle provided
a few machined parts for it but Vance did the final assembly. More =0Aabou
t this gear in the wheel pants paragraph. The free castoring nose gear, the
=0Afinal version sold with the TR-4 kits feat!=0Aured the same shock and s
pring set up as the early steerable TR-4 nose gear and =0Athe later TR-1 no
se gear. Again Vance did the final assembly so unfortunately =0Athe exact s
pring combination is unknown. That secret went with Vance when he =0Apassed
away. All the Landing gears are still available from Lyle except for the
=0Ashock and springs. We all know the shock was from the '68 Falcon. I did
a pretty =0Aextensive search while trying to help Dennis and the Falcon sho
ck is the only =0Ashock that has the stud end on both ends except for one o
ther shock that is =0Aentirley to big to fit into the nose gear strut. The
only remaining mystery is =0Athe spring sets used on the two airplanes and
Galin has just provided us with =0Asome important clues. The set up works g
reat for the TR-1 but may not be the =0Amost idea set up for the TR-4, it m
ay be a bit light for the loads it takes (my =0Aarm chair engineering opini
on).=0A=0AWheel Pants - You probably would have never guessed this one...th
e wheel pants =0Afor the TR-1 came from RANS (check out their website). Ric
h had a good =0Arelationship with Randy Slitter. I do not recall how this w
orked out, Rich may =0Ahave supplied Randy at one time but I do know Rich w
ould get wheel pants sets =0Afrom Randy from time to time. The TR-4 needed
bigger wheel pants. I believe the =0Acrew tooled their own larger size very
similar to the style used on the TR-1, =0AI'll have Chuck and Steve confir
m this. There was a problem when they put wheel =0Apants on the TR-4 protot
ype. While flying the nose gear turned with the rudder, =0Aand when the nos
e gear wheel pant turned into the wind it really affected the =0Ayaw of the
airplane in a bad way. That was the reason the nose gear wheel pant =0Awas
in the luggage bay when the airplane first appeared at Oshkosh in 1994.
=0AVance went to work and came up with the idea of a detente. When the TR-4
would =0Aleave the ground the nose gear would drop into a not!=0Ach and so
rt of disconnect from the rudder pedals and stay pointed straight ahead =0A
and the nose gear and its big wheel pant would not turn into the wind. Prob
lem =0Asolved, but it proved to be to difficult and expensive to produce th
is type of =0Alanding gear to be included in the kits. And so the free cast
ering nose gear was =0Aborn. =0A=0A=0AWheels and Brakes - No big secret her
e. Matco was the supplier. Many builders =0Acursed these wheels especially
on the TR-1. Maybe rightly so, the wheel is a bit =0Aundersized for the the
job it has to do. When the TR-1 started out its gross =0Aweight was 1300 l
bs. but is was increased to 1550 lbs., and that is a huge =0Adifference. Th
e worse thing about the brake set up as most of you know, was the =0Apedal
is too short and it is difficult to generate enough leverage to take =0Aadv
antage of what the Matcos have to offer in stopping power. Adding length to
=0Athe brake pedal helped improve the stopping power. Many builders change
d them =0Aout for other brands. I have a TR-1 builder near me who changed t
o the Matco =0Adouble puck system and he loves it. He operates off a grass
runway with good =0Aresults. I may consider this change for my TR-1C should
I actually get up enough =0Anerve to roll it down a real runway. The Matco
set up for the TR-4 was a much =0Abetter match but still had the same rudd
er/brake peda!=0Al set up Rich used on the TR-1. The gross weight increased
from 2400 lbs. to =0A2500 lbs. on the TR-4 but the change did not effect t
he braking performance. The =0AMatcos had such a bad reputation with builde
rs that a couple of new kit buyers =0Adidn't even want them included in the
ir kit but the Matcos will do the job. Rich =0Aused Grove wheels and brakes
on the Volato 400 project. =0A=0A=0AEngine Mounts - Most of you no these c
ame from, Snowline Welding in Oregon. =0AQuality was spotty from this suppl
ier. Many of these mounts were delivered =0Awarped. Although not a major pr
oblem it was not the most ideal situation. If you =0Aknow anything about we
lding, putting together a complicated mount required time =0Ato allow the w
elds to cool as the assembly progressed. If the welding was rushed =0Aand n
ot allowed to cool along the way when the welds do cool it shrinks and =0Ac
auses the part to warp. In a recent phone conversation TR-4 builder Dennis
=0AFrisone he told me Snowline no longer had the jigs used to make the KIS
motor =0Amounts. =0A=0A=0AWindows - Aircraft Windshield Company supplied al
l windows for KIS. I think =0Aevery airplane Rich tooled up for other kitpl
ane sellers had windows provided by =0Athis company. They have an excellent
reputation. Builders may feel the cost is =0Ahigh but their product is fir
st class. A lot of time is put into the resurfacing =0Aof these windows aft
er they are molded to ensure excellent optics. All KIS =0Awindows are avail
able on an as need bases. =0A=0A=0AComposite Suppliers - Hexel was the main
supplier of this stuff but Rich also =0Adid get things from Aircraft Spruc
e. Later on there were other composite vendors =0Athat provided the High Te
mp materials but I can't recall who these people were. =0AMaybe Mark K. mig
ht know. =0A=0A=0AThis is about as much as I know about Richard's vendors,
if I learn anymore I =0Awill update this post.=0AMark T.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead
this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p
=========================0A
=======================
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Control Force Harmony |
I added a couple of inches to the elevator extending it backwards.=0AThis i
ncreased authority of the elevator and increased forces on the elevator =0A
harmonizing the elevator and the ailerons=0Awithout any additional mechano-
electro-springo gizmos.=0A=0AJerzy=0A=0A=0A=0A_____________________________
___=0AFrom: Graham Brighton <gbrighton@skymesh.com.au>=0ATo: kis-list@matro
nics.com=0ASent: Mon, April 22, 2013 1:57:09 AM=0ASubject: Re: KIS-List: Co
<gbrighton@skymesh.com.au>=0A=0AHi OC,=0A Thx for ur great re
ply ... neat idea to work the Springs in =0Acompression ..... think i get i
t ok .. but would be good to see the install .... =0Ado have any Pics at al
l .. ??=0ACheers=0AGraham=0A=0A.=0A=0A------------------------------------
--------------=0AFrom: "Owen Baker " <bakerocb@cox.net>=0ASent: Monday, Apr
il 22, 2013 5:23 AM=0ATo: "BRIGHTON GRAHAM" <gbrighton@skymesh.com.au>; "KI
S-LIST MATRONICS" =0A<kis-list@matronics.com>=0ASubject: KIS-List: Control
b@cox.net>=0A> =0A> 4/21/2013=0A> =0A> Hello Graham, You wrote: =9CAm
surprised someone hasn't come up with some sort of =0A>fail safe dampener
devise to enable Elevator input feel to be adjusted to =0A>harmonise togeth
er with Aileron input feel .... , probably there is ... but i =0A>just have
n't stumbled across it sob ..,!?? , anybody ..??,=9D=0A> =0A> There i
s such a device and I have one installed on my KIS TR-1. Read about it =0A>
in my KIS list 1/7/2006 posting copied here:=0A> =0A> "1/7/2006 Hello Bill,
There is more to this pitch trim by springs system than =0A>meets the eye.
The typical system uses two springs in tension with an arm that =0A>moves
the spring center connect point to adjust. This works, but as you have =0A>
discovered has some sloppyness or imprecision to it. Maybe because the two
=0A>springs are always in play. A local Glasair builder has developed a spr
ing trim =0A>system that is superior. Can be used for pitch, aileron, or ru
dder. It consists =0A>of two springs in compression between the ends of a t
ube and a rod sliding =0A>within that tube with a nylon slider block which
acts as a center stop between =0A>the two springs. The slider block is norm
ally connected to an electric trim =0A>positioning motor and the end of the
rod is connected to the control surface =0A>bellcrank. The result is a muc
h more positive repositioning capability of the =0A>trim center point and t
he fact that when either control input is made or =0A>aerodynamic forces mo
ve the control surface only one spring is in play, the one =0A>being compre
ssed. Adjustment of the trim center point is accomplished by =0A>operating
the electric trim positioning motor. Contact me if interested in =0A>pursui
ng this idea further. OC"=0A> =0A> My motivation for installing this device
was to accomplish pitch trim without =0A>having a tab installed on my elev
ator, it could also be installed for the =0A>purpose of changing pitch cont
rol forces with the trim capability just an added =0A>benefit. By changing
the length of the tube and rod, the springs installed on =0A>each, and (for
fine tuning) spacers on either the tube or rod to increase =0A>initial spr
ing compression force one can achieve an almost infinite number of =0A>vari
able stick force required to move the elevator in either direction.=0A> =0A
> OC=0A> =0A> PS: One caveat -- To take true advantage of this system for p
itch trim one must =0A>have sufficient travel of the linear actuator to ach
ieve the desired maximum =0A>nose up and maximum nose down pitch conditions
desired. The puny 1.2 inch travel =0A>of a Ray Allen servo is not likely t
o do the job.=0A> =0A>=================
============0A>==0A> =0A> Saturday, April 20, 2013
7:54 AM=0A> =0A> Hi OC,=0A> Sorry didn't mean something was sp
ecially wrong .... Is that most =0A>lighties share that common lack of harm
ony of control feel with roll and pitch =0A>.... ,=0A> With our Ailerons wh
ich are specially wholesome ( non tapered) .. some =0A>'leverage' ... is go
ing to be required .. (specially with increased speed !) ...=0A> =0A> Where
as elevators are mostly light ..!? .. In theory achieving mechanical =0A
>leverage advantage in equal measure to arrive at uniform control input bet
ween =0A>pitch and roll is straight fwd .... but carn't think of any ( admi
t am only ppl =0A>and not flown very many types ..!) .., that have achieved
it ..?!=0A> =0A> Playing with bell crank ratios is the logical way .. but
would be super =0A>laborious I'm sure ... With my adjustable length stick
... roll is as =0A>light/heavy as my personal preference ( for whatever sp
eed .. ) .... However =0A>pitch which is normally light gets lighter with
extra leverage grrr .... Am =0A>surprised someone hasn't come up with some
sort of fail safe dampener devise to =0A>enable Elevator input feel to be
adjusted to harmonise together with Aileron =0A>input feel .... , probably
there is ... but i just haven't stumbled across it =0A>sob ..,!?? , anybody
..??,=0A> =0A> Anyway am happy at present to retract down the stick for x
crountry legs and =0A>map reading/iPad etc ...,=0A> =0A> Just was that st
ick position came up that's all ... ,=0A> Cheers=0A> Graham=0A> =0A> =0A>
===================
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Control Force Harmony |
Jerzy.. How many inches did you add? Is this for the TR4 or TR1?
On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 2:40 PM, jerzy krasinski <
jerzy_krasinski@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> I added a couple of inches to the elevator extending it backwards.
> This increased authority of the elevator and increased forces on the
> elevator harmonizing the elevator and the ailerons
> without any additional mechano-electro-springo gizmos.
>
> Jerzy
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Graham Brighton <gbrighton@skymesh.com.au>
> *To:* kis-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Mon, April 22, 2013 1:57:09 AM
> *Subject:* Re: KIS-List: Control Force Harmony
>
> gbrighton@skymesh.com.au>
>
> Hi OC,
> Thx for ur great reply ... neat idea to work the Springs in
> compression ..... think i get it ok .. but would be good to see the insta
ll
> .... do have any Pics at all .. ??
> Cheers
> Graham
>
> .
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Owen Baker " <bakerocb@cox.net>
> Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 5:23 AM
> To: "BRIGHTON GRAHAM" <gbrighton@skymesh.com.au>; "KIS-LIST MATRONICS" <
> kis-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: KIS-List: Control Force Harmony
>
> >
> > 4/21/2013
> >
> > Hello Graham, You wrote: =93Am surprised someone hasn't come up with so
me
> sort of fail safe dampener devise to enable Elevator input feel to be
> adjusted to harmonise together with Aileron input feel .... , probably
> there is ... but i just haven't stumbled across it sob ..,!?? , anybody
> ..??,=94
> >
> > There is such a device and I have one installed on my KIS TR-1. Read
> about it in my KIS list 1/7/2006 posting copied here:
> >
> > "1/7/2006 Hello Bill, There is more to this pitch trim by springs syste
m
> than meets the eye. The typical system uses two springs in tension with a
n
> arm that moves the spring center connect point to adjust. This works, but
> as you have discovered has some sloppyness or imprecision to it. Maybe
> because the two springs are always in play. A local Glasair builder has
> developed a spring trim system that is superior. Can be used for pitch,
> aileron, or rudder. It consists of two springs in compression between the
> ends of a tube and a rod sliding within that tube with a nylon slider blo
ck
> which acts as a center stop between the two springs. The slider block is
> normally connected to an electric trim positioning motor and the end of t
he
> rod is connected to the control surface bellcrank. The result is a much
> more positive repositioning capability of the trim center point and the
> fact that when either control input is made or aerodynamic forces move th
e
> control surface only one spring is in play, the one being compressed.
> Adjustment of the trim center point is accomplished by operating the
> electric trim positioning motor. Contact me if interested in pursuing thi
s
> idea further. OC"
> >
> > My motivation for installing this device was to accomplish pitch trim
> without having a tab installed on my elevator, it could also be installed
> for the purpose of changing pitch control forces with the trim capability
> just an added benefit. By changing the length of the tube and rod, the
> springs installed on each, and (for fine tuning) spacers on either the tu
be
> or rod to increase initial spring compression force one can achieve an
> almost infinite number of variable stick force required to move the
> elevator in either direction.
> >
> > OC
> >
> > PS: One caveat -- To take true advantage of this system for pitch trim
> one must have sufficient travel of the linear actuator to achieve the
> desired maximum nose up and maximum nose down pitch conditions desired. T
he
> puny 1.2 inch travel of a Ray Allen servo is not likely to do the job.
> >
> > =======================
====
> >
> > Saturday, April 20, 2013 7:54 AM
> >
> > Hi OC,
> > Sorry didn't mean something was specially wrong .... Is
> that most lighties share that common lack of harmony of control feel with
> roll and pitch .... ,
> > With our Ailerons which are specially wholesome ( non tapered) .. some
> 'leverage' ... is going to be required .. (specially with increased speed
> !) ...
> >
> > Where as elevators are mostly light ..!? .. In theory achieving
> mechanical leverage advantage in equal measure to arrive at uniform contr
ol
> input between pitch and roll is straight fwd .... but carn't think of any
(
> admit am only ppl and not flown very many types ..!) .., that have achiev
ed
> it ..?!
> >
> > Playing with bell crank ratios is the logical way .. but would be supe
r
> laborious I'm sure ... With my adjustable length stick ... roll is as
> light/heavy as my personal preference ( for whatever speed .. ) ....
> However pitch which is normally light gets lighter with extra leverage
> grrr .... Am surprised someone hasn't come up with some sort of fail saf
e
> dampener devise to enable Elevator input feel to be adjusted to harmonise
> together with Aileron input feel .... , probably there is ... but i just
> haven't stumbled across it sob ..,!?? , anybody ..??,
> >
> > Anyway am happy at present to retract down the stick for xcrountry leg
s
> and map reading/iPad etc ...,
> >
> > Just was that stick position came up that's all ... ,
> > Cheers
> >= --> http://forums.matronics.comsp;
> -nics.com/contribution" ======
>
>
> <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List>
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Control Force Harmony |
Something else might be in the mix, I have a 1 3/4" extension on my elevator
and another TR-1 on the field has the stock elevator and his has noticeably
more resistance than mine but not near as much as the ailerons at cruise
speed. He does run out of elevator authority when landing so he just lands a
little faster. I understand that springs have been used by manufacturers for
years to achieve a balance between control systems. I believe Cirrus uses
them in the side stick system.
Tim
_____
From: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jerzy krasinski
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Control Force Harmony
I added a couple of inches to the elevator extending it backwards.
This increased authority of the elevator and increased forces on the
elevator harmonizing the elevator and the ailerons
without any additional mechano-electro-springo gizmos.
Jerzy
_____
From: Graham Brighton <gbrighton@skymesh.com.au>
Sent: Mon, April 22, 2013 1:57:09 AM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Control Force Harmony
Hi OC,
Thx for ur great reply ... neat idea to work the Springs in
compression ..... think i get it ok .. but would be good to see the install
.... do have any Pics at all .. ??
Cheers
Graham
.
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Owen Baker " <bakerocb@cox.net>
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 5:23 AM
<kis-list@matronics.com>
Subject: KIS-List: Control Force Harmony
>
> 4/21/2013
>
> Hello Graham, You wrote: "Am surprised someone hasn't come up with some
sort of fail safe dampener devise to enable Elevator input feel to be
adjusted to harmonise together with Aileron input feel .... , probably there
is ... but i just haven't stumbled across it sob ..,!?? , anybody ..??,"
>
> There is such a device and I have one installed on my KIS TR-1. Read about
it in my KIS list 1/7/2006 posting copied here:
>
> "1/7/2006 Hello Bill, There is more to this pitch trim by springs system
than meets the eye. The typical system uses two springs in tension with an
arm that moves the spring center connect point to adjust. This works, but as
you have discovered has some sloppyness or imprecision to it. Maybe because
the two springs are always in play. A local Glasair builder has developed a
spring trim system that is superior. Can be used for pitch, aileron, or
rudder. It consists of two springs in compression between the ends of a tube
and a rod sliding within that tube with a nylon slider block which acts as a
center stop between the two springs. The slider block is normally connected
to an electric trim positioning motor and the end of the rod is connected to
the control surface bellcrank. The result is a much more positive
repositioning capability of the trim center point and the fact that when
either control input is made or aerodynamic forces move the control surface
only one spring is in play, the one being compressed. Adjustment of the trim
center point is accomplished by operating the electric trim positioning
motor. Contact me if interested in pursuing this idea further. OC"
>
> My motivation for installing this device was to accomplish pitch trim
without having a tab installed on my elevator, it could also be installed
for the purpose of changing pitch control forces with the trim capability
just an added benefit. By changing the length of the tube and rod, the
springs installed on each, and (for fine tuning) spacers on either the tube
or rod to increase initial spring compression force one can achieve an
almost infinite number of variable stick force required to move the elevator
in either direction.
>
> OC
>
> PS: One caveat -- To take true advantage of this system for pitch trim one
must have sufficient travel of the linear actuator to achieve the desired
maximum nose up and maximum nose down pitch conditions desired. The puny 1.2
inch travel of a Ray Allen servo is not likely to do the job.
>
> ===========================
>
> Saturday, April 20, 2013 7:54 AM
>
> Hi OC,
> Sorry didn't mean something was specially wrong .... Is that
most lighties share that common lack of harmony of control feel with roll
and pitch .... ,
> With our Ailerons which are specially wholesome ( non tapered) .. some
'leverage' ... is going to be required .. (specially with increased speed !)
...
>
> Where as elevators are mostly light ..!? .. In theory achieving
mechanical leverage advantage in equal measure to arrive at uniform control
input between pitch and roll is straight fwd .... but carn't think of any (
admit am only ppl and not flown very many types ..!) .., that have achieved
it ..?!
>
> Playing with bell crank ratios is the logical way .. but would be super
laborious I'm sure ... With my adjustable length stick ... roll is as
light/heavy as my personal preference ( for whatever speed .. ) ....
However pitch which is normally light gets lighter with extra leverage grrr
.... Am surprised someone hasn't come up with some sort of fail safe
dampener devise to enable Elevator input feel to be adjusted to harmonise
together with Aileron input feel .... , probably there is ... but i just
haven't stumbled across it sob ..,!?? , anybody ..??,
>
> Anyway am happy at present to retract down the stick for xcrountry legs
and map reading/iPad etc ...,
>
> Just was that stick position came up that's all ... ,
> Cheers
>= --> http://forums.matronics.comsp;
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List>
-nics.com/contribution" ======
Message 5
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| Subject: | Control Force Harmony |
This is a long time issue for the TR-1. Rich and Vance advised me to do the
extension about 1995 after a customer tried it with good results. One of the
builders in Europe I believe.
Tim
_____
From: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Galin Hernandez
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Control Force Harmony
Jerzy.. How many inches did you add? Is this for the TR4 or TR1?
On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 2:40 PM, jerzy krasinski
<jerzy_krasinski@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
I added a couple of inches to the elevator extending it backwards.
This increased authority of the elevator and increased forces on the
elevator harmonizing the elevator and the ailerons
without any additional mechano-electro-springo gizmos.
Jerzy
_____
From: Graham Brighton <gbrighton@skymesh.com.au>
Sent: Mon, April 22, 2013 1:57:09 AM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Control Force Harmony
Hi OC,
Thx for ur great reply ... neat idea to work the Springs in
compression ..... think i get it ok .. but would be good to see the install
.... do have any Pics at all .. ??
Cheers
Graham
.
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Owen Baker " <bakerocb@cox.net>
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 5:23 AM
<kis-list@matronics.com>
Subject: KIS-List: Control Force Harmony
>
> 4/21/2013
>
> Hello Graham, You wrote: "Am surprised someone hasn't come up with some
sort of fail safe dampener devise to enable Elevator input feel to be
adjusted to harmonise together with Aileron input feel .... , probably there
is ... but i just haven't stumbled across it sob ..,!?? , anybody ..??,"
>
> There is such a device and I have one installed on my KIS TR-1. Read about
it in my KIS list 1/7/2006 posting copied here:
>
> "1/7/2006 Hello Bill, There is more to this pitch trim by springs system
than meets the eye. The typical system uses two springs in tension with an
arm that moves the spring center connect point to adjust. This works, but as
you have discovered has some sloppyness or imprecision to it. Maybe because
the two springs are always in play. A local Glasair builder has developed a
spring trim system that is superior. Can be used for pitch, aileron, or
rudder. It consists of two springs in compression between the ends of a tube
and a rod sliding within that tube with a nylon slider block which acts as a
center stop between the two springs. The slider block is normally connected
to an electric trim positioning motor and the end of the rod is connected to
the control surface bellcrank. The result is a much more positive
repositioning capability of the trim center point and the fact that when
either control input is made or aerodynamic forces move the control surface
only one spring is in play, the one being compressed. Adjustment of the trim
center point is accomplished by operating the electric trim positioning
motor. Contact me if interested in pursuing this idea further. OC"
>
> My motivation for installing this device was to accomplish pitch trim
without having a tab installed on my elevator, it could also be installed
for the purpose of changing pitch control forces with the trim capability
just an added benefit. By changing the length of the tube and rod, the
springs installed on each, and (for fine tuning) spacers on either the tube
or rod to increase initial spring compression force one can achieve an
almost infinite number of variable stick force required to move the elevator
in either direction.
>
> OC
>
> PS: One caveat -- To take true advantage of this system for pitch trim one
must have sufficient travel of the linear actuator to achieve the desired
maximum nose up and maximum nose down pitch conditions desired. The puny 1.2
inch travel of a Ray Allen servo is not likely to do the job.
>
> ===========================
>
> Saturday, April 20, 2013 7:54 AM
>
> Hi OC,
> Sorry didn't mean something was specially wrong .... Is that
most lighties share that common lack of harmony of control feel with roll
and pitch .... ,
> With our Ailerons which are specially wholesome ( non tapered) .. some
'leverage' ... is going to be required .. (specially with increased speed !)
...
>
> Where as elevators are mostly light ..!? .. In theory achieving
mechanical leverage advantage in equal measure to arrive at uniform control
input between pitch and roll is straight fwd .... but carn't think of any (
admit am only ppl and not flown very many types ..!) .., that have achieved
it ..?!
>
> Playing with bell crank ratios is the logical way .. but would be super
laborious I'm sure ... With my adjustable length stick ... roll is as
light/heavy as my personal preference ( for whatever speed .. ) ....
However pitch which is normally light gets lighter with extra leverage grrr
.... Am surprised someone hasn't come up with some sort of fail safe
dampener devise to enable Elevator input feel to be adjusted to harmonise
together with Aileron input feel .... , probably there is ... but i just
haven't stumbled across it sob ..,!?? , anybody ..??,
>
> Anyway am happy at present to retract down the stick for xcrountry legs
and map reading/iPad etc ...,
>
> Just was that stick position came up that's all ... ,
> Cheers
>= --> http://forums.matronics.comsp;
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List>
-nics.com/contribution" ======
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Control Force Harmony |
I forgot the exact number, would have to go to the airport and measurem but
it =0Awas just below 2 inches.=0AIt was TR4=0AJerzy=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________
________________________=0AFrom: Galin Hernandez <galinhdz@gmail.com>=0ATo:
"kis-list@matronics.com" <kis-list@matronics.com>=0ASent: Mon, April 22, 2
013 5:05:43 PM=0ASubject: Re: KIS-List: Control Force Harmony=0A=0A=0AJerzy
.. How many inches did you add? Is this for the TR4 or TR1?=0A=0A=0A=0AOn M
on, Apr 22, 2013 at 2:40 PM, jerzy krasinski <jerzy_krasinski@sbcglobal.net
> =0Awrote:=0A=0AI added a couple of inches to the elevator extending it ba
ckwards.=0A>This increased authority of the elevator and increased forces o
n the elevator =0A>harmonizing the elevator and the ailerons=0A>without any
additional mechano-electro-springo gizmos.=0A>=0A>=0A>Jerzy=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A
________________________________=0AFrom: Graham Brighton <gbrighton@skymesh
.com.au>=0A>To: kis-list@matronics.com=0A>Sent: Mon, April 22, 2013 1:57:09
AM=0A>Subject: Re: KIS-List: Control Force Harmony=0A>=0A>=0A>--> KIS-List
message posted by: "Graham Brighton" <gbrighton@skymesh.com.au>=0A>=0A>Hi
OC,=0A> Thx for ur great reply ... neat idea to work the Spri
ngs in =0A>compression ..... think i get it ok .. but would be good to see
the install .... =0A>do have any Pics at all .. ??=0A>Cheers=0A>Graham=0A>
=0A>.=0A>=0A>--------------------------------------------------=0A>From: "O
wen Baker " <bakerocb@cox.net>=0A>Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 5:23 AM=0A>T
o: "BRIGHTON GRAHAM" <gbrighton@skymesh.com.au>; "KIS-LIST MATRONICS" =0A><
kis-list@matronics.com>=0A>Subject: KIS-List: Control Force Harmony=0A>=0A
=0A>> 4/21/2013=0A>> =0A>> Hello Graham, You wrote: =9CAm surprised s
omeone hasn't come up with some sort of =0A>>fail safe dampener devise to e
nable Elevator input feel to be adjusted to =0A>>harmonise together with Ai
leron input feel .... , probably there is ... but i =0A>>just haven't stumb
led across it sob ..,!?? , anybody ..??,=9D=0A>> =0A>> There is such
a device and I have one installed on my KIS TR-1. Read about it =0A>>in my
KIS list 1/7/2006 posting copied here:=0A>> =0A>> "1/7/2006 Hello Bill, The
re is more to this pitch trim by springs system than =0A>>meets the eye. Th
e typical system uses two springs in tension with an arm that =0A>>moves th
e spring center connect point to adjust. This works, but as you have =0A>>d
iscovered has some sloppyness or imprecision to it. Maybe because the two
=0A>>springs are always in play. A local Glasair builder has developed a sp
ring trim =0A>>system that is superior. Can be used for pitch, aileron, or
rudder. It consists =0A>>of two springs in compression between the ends of
a tube and a rod sliding =0A>>within that tube with a nylon slider block wh
ich acts as a center stop between =0A>>the two springs. The slider block is
normally connected to an electric trim =0A>>positioning motor and the end
of the rod is connected to the control surface =0A>>bellcrank. The result i
s a much more positive repositioning capability of the =0A>>trim center poi
nt and the fact that when either control input is made or =0A>>aerodynamic
forces move the control surface only one spring is in play, the one =0A>>be
ing compressed. Adjustment of the trim center point is accomplished by =0A>
>operating the electric trim positioning motor. Contact me if interested in
=0A>>pursuing this idea further. OC"=0A>> =0A>> My motivation for installi
ng this device was to accomplish pitch trim without =0A>>having a tab inst
alled on my elevator, it could also be installed for the =0A>>purpose of ch
anging pitch control forces with the trim capability just an added =0A>>ben
efit. By changing the length of the tube and rod, the springs installed on
=0A>>each, and (for fine tuning) spacers on either the tube or rod to incre
ase =0A>>initial spring compression force one can achieve an almost infinit
e number of =0A>>variable stick force required to move the elevator in eith
er direction.=0A>> =0A>> OC=0A>> =0A>> PS: One caveat -- To take true advan
tage of this system for pitch trim one must =0A>>have sufficient travel of
the linear actuator to achieve the desired maximum =0A>>nose up and maximum
nose down pitch conditions desired. The puny 1.2 inch travel =0A>>of a Ray
Allen servo is not likely to do the job.=0A>> =0A>> =======
======================0A>> =0A>
=0A>> Saturday, April 20, 2013 7:54 AM=0A>> =0A>> Hi OC,=0A>>
Sorry didn't mean something was specially wrong .... Is that most =0A>>lig
hties share that common lack of harmony of control feel with roll and pitch
=0A>>.... ,=0A>> With our Ailerons which are specially wholesome ( non tap
ered) .. some =0A>>'leverage' ... is going to be required .. (specially wit
h increased speed !) ...=0A>> =0A>> Where as elevators are mostly light ..
!? .. In theory achieving mechanical =0A>>leverage advantage in equal meas
ure to arrive at uniform control input between =0A>>pitch and roll is strai
ght fwd .... but carn't think of any ( admit am only ppl =0A>>and not flown
very many types ..!) .., that have achieved it ..?!=0A>> =0A>> Playing wit
h bell crank ratios is the logical way .. but would be super =0A>>laboriou
s I'm sure ... With my adjustable length stick ... roll is as =0A>>light/he
avy as my personal preference ( for whatever speed .. ) .... However =0A>
>pitch which is normally light gets lighter with extra leverage grrr ....
Am =0A>>surprised someone hasn't come up with some sort of fail safe dampe
ner devise to =0A>>enable Elevator input feel to be adjusted to harmonise t
ogether with Aileron =0A>>input feel .... , probably there is ... but i jus
t haven't stumbled across it =0A>>sob ..,!?? , anybody ..??,=0A>> =0A>> Any
way am happy at present to retract down the stick for xcrountry legs and
=0A>>map reading/iPad etc ...,=0A>> =0A>> Just was that stick position ca
me up that's all ... ,=0A>> Cheers=0A>>= --> http://forums.matronics.co
msp; =0A>>-nics.com/contribution" =======
=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-
List =0A>tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contrib
================ =0A
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