---------------------------------------------------------- KIS-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 04/30/13: 5 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:27 AM - Re: KIS-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 04/29/13 (Kevin Alderman) 2. 06:08 AM - Catto Propeller (Galin Hernandez) 3. 06:10 AM - Re: Re: KIS-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 04/29/13 (Graham Brighton) 4. 06:46 AM - Re: Catto Propeller (William Schertz) 5. 05:11 PM - Re: Catto Propeller (Galin Hernandez) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:27:12 AM PST US Subject: KIS-List: Re: KIS-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 04/29/13 From: Kevin Alderman A turbine is a good engine, but not for our general use. The biggest factor is fuel burn There is a small helicopter that uses a 100 hp SOLAS turbine for power. It is small, light and responsive. It burns 9 GPH at idle on the ground, and making 100 HP it burns closer to 14 GPH. Turbines are great for high altitude high speed flight, for flight in our normal flight regime it will work but the fuel costs are multitudes higher. Also, turbines such as the SOLAS operate at high speeds around 50,000 RPM, and as such need a gearbox to reduce the engine speed to prop speed. The Helicopter supplier makes their own, you would have to find one somewhere. Turbines have a very very narrow power and engine speed range. The power is varied by a CS prop. Your gearbox will have to be able to support a CS prop and include a governor. The engine itself will (or should) have a controller that controls/ limits engine RPM, but you will still need a method of controlling the prop pitch. In a turboprop like a Pilatus, it goes like this: The engine is started at ground idle, which is a turbine speed of around 80% of flight speed, i.e. 40K RPM. After warm up and taxi, the engine is brought up to flight cruise power and the prop is cycled somewhat similar to our run-up with a piston recip. For takeoff, the throttle is pushed to takeoff and the prop full forward for maximum THRUST. At altitude, the throttle is pulled back to flight cruise, the prop placed in cruise and off we go. Turbine engines are only cost efficient at high altitudes and high speeds. Most jet operators will tell you that if they had to fly below 30K feet all the time they couldn't afford the fuel. Another added benefit of a turbine is pressurization- they take compressed high pressure air from the cold- compressor- section and send it into the cabin. The air is hot from compression, and doubles as cabin heat. If you aren't going to fly at the flight levels, this is another waste of power. I am building a Wheeler Express- after flights to Central America, the Bahamas, and other places that do not have Avgas, I thought about a 300HP turbine. My plane with a 300 HP gas engine will burn around 12 gph at 180 kts at 14,500 ft. My 100 gal fuel capacity will give me more than a 1000 mile range. The 300 HP turbine fuel burn is closer to 28 GPH in flight even at FL 180. Cuts my range in half, even though I gain 30 kts in speed. Kevin Alderman Avionics Tech/ Aircraft restoration Building a Wheeler Express with a Mazda Rotary 13B turbo- 300 HP- 3 moving parts. On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 3:00 AM, KIS-List Digest Server < kis-list@matronics.com> wrote: > * > > ================================================= > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive > ================================================= > > Today's complete KIS-List Digest can also be found in either of the > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes > and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version > of the KIS-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor > such as Notepad or with a web browser. > > HTML Version: > > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 13-04-29&Archive=KIS > > Text Version: > > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 13-04-29&Archive=KIS > > > =============================================== > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive > =============================================== > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > KIS-List Digest Archive > --- > Total Messages Posted Mon 04/29/13: 2 > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > Today's Message Index: > ---------------------- > > 1. 04:59 AM - Re: Turbine (ALFRED ROSA) > 2. 06:45 AM - Re: Turbine (Galin Hernandez) > > > ________________________________ Message 1 > _____________________________________ > > > Time: 04:59:55 AM PST US > Subject: Re: KIS-List: Turbine > From: ALFRED ROSA > > Just wondering what advantage you are hoping to achieve with a turbine? > Also, If you need a Cruiser without engine and avionics, I have one in my > garage. > > Al > > On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 12:55 AM, John Petrie >wrote: > > > > > Hi all, > > > > It's been a while since I last posted on this group, largely due to the > > fact that I sold my KIS Cruiser. > > I am now looking for a new project and am considering buying my Cruiser > > back and fitting a turbine engine. I know absolutely nothing about > > turbines, and hence the reason for this post. If anyone can point me in > > the right direction or provide some other useful information, I'm all > ears. > > Thanks a mil. > > > > John Petrie > > Sonic Factory > > 082 574 6190 > > Sent from my mobile > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 > _____________________________________ > > > Time: 06:45:52 AM PST US > From: Galin Hernandez > Subject: Re: KIS-List: Turbine > > Now THAT sounds like a cool project. I think 100LL will eventually go away > and a Jet-A type alternative is a good idea. Besides, it sounds like fun to > do. > > > On Sun, Apr 28, 2013 at 11:55 PM, John Petrie >wrote: > > > > > Hi all, > > > > It's been a while since I last posted on this group, largely due to the > > fact that I sold my KIS Cruiser. > > I am now looking for a new project and am considering buying my Cruiser > > back and fitting a turbine engine. I know absolutely nothing about > > turbines, and hence the reason for this post. If anyone can point me in > > the right direction or provide some other useful information, I'm all > ears. > > Thanks a mil. > > > > John Petrie > > Sonic Factory > > 082 574 6190 > > Sent from my mobile > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:08:01 AM PST US From: Galin Hernandez Subject: KIS-List: Catto Propeller Is anyone flying with a Catto propeller? I know Bob Reed has one but is not flying yet. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:10:21 AM PST US From: "Graham Brighton" Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: KIS-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 04/29/13 Great Reply Kevin , But few more moving parts than 3 hey ..!! ... with the Turbo ... and gearbox too .. and what gearbox are u intending use/try .... ? not much available with proven hours and or tested TV analysis ..!!?? Graham .. From: Kevin Alderman Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 8:26 PM Subject: KIS-List: Re: KIS-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 04/29/13 A turbine is a good engine, but not for our general use. The biggest factor is fuel burn There is a small helicopter that uses a 100 hp SOLAS turbine for power. It is small, light and responsive. It burns 9 GPH at idle on the ground, and making 100 HP it burns closer to 14 GPH. Turbines are great for high altitude high speed flight, for flight in our normal flight regime it will work but the fuel costs are multitudes higher. Also, turbines such as the SOLAS operate at high speeds around 50,000 RPM, and as such need a gearbox to reduce the engine speed to prop speed. The Helicopter supplier makes their own, you would have to find one somewhere. Turbines have a very very narrow power and engine speed range. The power is varied by a CS prop. Your gearbox will have to be able to support a CS prop and include a governor. The engine itself will (or should) have a controller that controls/ limits engine RPM, but you will still need a method of controlling the prop pitch. In a turboprop like a Pilatus, it goes like this: The engine is started at ground idle, which is a turbine speed of around 80% of flight speed, i.e. 40K RPM. After warm up and taxi, the engine is brought up to flight cruise power and the prop is cycled somewhat similar to our run-up with a piston recip. For takeoff, the throttle is pushed to takeoff and the prop full forward for maximum THRUST. At altitude, the throttle is pulled back to flight cruise, the prop placed in cruise and off we go. Turbine engines are only cost efficient at high altitudes and high speeds. Most jet operators will tell you that if they had to fly below 30K feet all the time they couldn't afford the fuel. Another added benefit of a turbine is pressurization- they take compressed high pressure air from the cold- compressor- section and send it into the cabin. The air is hot from compression, and doubles as cabin heat. If you aren't going to fly at the flight levels, this is another waste of power. I am building a Wheeler Express- after flights to Central America, the Bahamas, and other places that do not have Avgas, I thought about a 300HP turbine. My plane with a 300 HP gas engine will burn around 12 gph at 180 kts at 14,500 ft. My 100 gal fuel capacity will give me more than a 1000 mile range. The 300 HP turbine fuel burn is closer to 28 GPH in flight even at FL 180. Cuts my range in half, even though I gain 30 kts in speed. Kevin Alderman Avionics Tech/ Aircraft restoration Building a Wheeler Express with a Mazda Rotary 13B turbo- 300 HP- 3 moving parts. On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 3:00 AM, KIS-List Digest Server wrote: * Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive Today's complete KIS-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the KIS-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html& Chapter 13-04-29&Archive=KIS Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&C hapter 13-04-29&Archive=KIS ====================== EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive ====================== ---------------------------------------------------------- KIS-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 04/29/13: 2 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:59 AM - Re: Turbine (ALFRED ROSA) 2. 06:45 AM - Re: Turbine (Galin Hernandez) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:59:55 AM PST US Subject: Re: KIS-List: Turbine From: ALFRED ROSA Just wondering what advantage you are hoping to achieve with a turbine? Also, If you need a Cruiser without engine and avionics, I have one in my garage. Al On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 12:55 AM, John Petrie wrote: > > Hi all, > > It's been a while since I last posted on this group, largely due to the > fact that I sold my KIS Cruiser. > I am now looking for a new project and am considering buying my Cruiser > back and fitting a turbine engine. I know absolutely nothing about > turbines, and hence the reason for this post. If anyone can point me in > the right direction or provide some other useful information, I'm all ears. > Thanks a mil. > > John Petrie > Sonic Factory > 082 574 6190 > Sent from my mobile > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:45:52 AM PST US From: Galin Hernandez Subject: Re: KIS-List: Turbine Now THAT sounds like a cool project. I think 100LL will eventually go away and a Jet-A type alternative is a good idea. Besides, it sounds like fun to do. On Sun, Apr 28, 2013 at 11:55 PM, John Petrie wrote: > > Hi all, > > It's been a while since I last posted on this group, largely due to the > fact that I sold my KIS Cruiser. > I am now looking for a new project and am considering buying my Cruiser > back and fitting a turbine engine. I know absolutely nothing about > turbines, and hence the reason for this post. If anyone can point me in > the right direction or provide some other useful information, I'm all ears. > Thanks a mil. > > John Petrie > Sonic Factory > 082 574 6190 > Sent from my mobile > > ========== rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List ========== http://forums.matronics.com ========== le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:46:24 AM PST US From: "William Schertz" Subject: Re: KIS-List: Catto Propeller I am flying with a 76x76 Catto 2 blade prop on my Rotary powered KIS Bill Schertz From: Galin Hernandez Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 8:07 AM Subject: KIS-List: Catto Propeller Is anyone flying with a Catto propeller? I know Bob Reed has one but is not flying yet. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:11:36 PM PST US From: Galin Hernandez Subject: Re: KIS-List: Catto Propeller Bill, How do you like the propeller? On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 8:46 AM, William Schertz wrote: > I am flying with a 76x76 Catto 2 blade prop on my Rotary powered KIS > > Bill Schertz > > > *From:* Galin Hernandez > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 30, 2013 8:07 AM > *To:* kis-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* KIS-List: Catto Propeller > > Is anyone flying with a Catto propeller? I know Bob Reed has one but is > not flying yet. > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c* > > * > > * > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kis-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/KIS-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kis-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kis-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.