Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:50 AM - Re: Flight Hours Since New? (Keith.Miller@esa.int)
2. 06:42 AM - Re: Re: Horizontal Tail Span (Mark Kettering)
3. 06:46 AM - Re: Horizontal Tail Span (mark_trickel)
4. 07:52 AM - Re: Closing the fuselage (Robert Reed)
5. 11:15 AM - Re: Closing the fuselage (Scott Stearns)
6. 12:56 PM - Re: Horizontal Tail Span (fasilpereira)
7. 01:16 PM - Re: Closing the fuselage (Robert Reed)
8. 01:17 PM - Re: Re: Horizontal Tail Span (Galin Hernandez)
9. 01:55 PM - Re: Closing the fuselage (jerzy krasinski)
10. 02:08 PM - Re: Closing the fuselage (jerzy krasinski)
11. 03:22 PM - Re: Horizontal Tail Span (fasilpereira)
12. 03:46 PM - Re: Re: Horizontal Tail Span (Galin Hernandez)
13. 06:15 PM - Re: Re: Horizontal Tail Span (Mark Kettering)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Flight Hours Since New? |
Mike, that is impressive,- I thought I was doing quite well in my TR1 with
487 hrs in 11 years
From: "Mike and Michele Patten" <mikepapa@bigpond.com>
To: <kis-list@matronics.com>,
Date: 09/23/2013 01:09 PM
Subject: RE: KIS-List: Flight Hours Since New?
Sent by: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com
Hi,
KIS TR1 VH AIG in Australia has 1200hrs, of which I have done approx. 900hrs.
Regards,
Mike.
From: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com [
mailto:owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Galin Hernandez
Sent: Monday, 23 September 2013 1:16 AM
Subject: KIS-List: Flight Hours Since New?
As I approach the 1,000hr point on my KIS4, I was wondering who else has
1,000 or more flight hours on their KIS airplane? AND this begs the question,
who has the most flight hours on their KIS1 or KIS4?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Galin
947Hrs and counting.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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| Subject: | Re: Horizontal Tail Span |
Hi Galin,
Did your elevator run out of authority while in the air or after touch down? If
it was only after touch down then the problem could be the main gear placement
and not the elevator. From my TR-4 time I found the elevator had sufficient
authority to stall the wing in any configuration except very far forward CG and
light loading. Even at very far forward CG there was sufficient authority
to fly with minimum airspeed and be just mushing along. Of course not all builds
are the same so your aircraft could be different.
What did happen on the factory TR-4 was at touch down the center of "lift" moved
aft from the lift center of the wing to the main gear contact. This creates
a strong nose down pitching moment and the stock elevator did not have sufficient
authority to keep the nose off the ground. But instead of increasing the
elevator authority to more than is needed in the air why not correct the placement
of the main gear that is causing the nose down pitching moment after touchdown.
Another problem the TR-4 has are the control forces. The ailerons are too heavy
and the elevator is too light. Increasing the cord of the elevator helps increase
the stick force per G along with adding elevator authority if needed.
When I was doing the engineering for Tri-R and Liaoning Pacific Aviation for certification
of the TR-4 in China these 2 changes were part of those required for
part 23. The modified TR-4 has a type certificate in China.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Galin Hernandez
Sent: Sep 23, 2013 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: Horizontal Tail Span
I recommend you increase the tail span if possible. The smaller tail runs out of
elevator authority just before you land and you can't keep the nose wheel up
very long. The landings wind up being a little hard on the nose gear.
Since I have the smaller tail, I added vortex generators to the bottom of the elevator.
Now on approach I don't run out of elevator authority and I can keep
the nose wheel off the runway for quite a while after landing. The landings are
significantly softer on the nose wheel because of this.
Galin
On Monday, September 23, 2013, fasilpereira wrote:
I have an old TR-4 specs file from Contact Magazine where the horizontal tail span
is listed at 8'9". Galin's Aircraft Manual also has 8'9".
But if you take a look at the KIS TR-4 sales Brochure, the horizontal tail span
is 10'3" (see attatched file). On the ZU-BKK aircrafy manual also has the same
span for the horizontal tail.
That's what I though that the tail span was increased during the development of
the kits.
Best,
Fabricio
--------
Fabricio Pereira
Engineer / Pilot
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409031#409031
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| Subject: | Re: Horizontal Tail Span |
Galin and others,
I designed, set the type, and printed the sales brochures Richard used to market
KIS. The information shown in the brochure is not accurate and I apologize for
that. The TR-4 specifications shown were given to me by Richard over the phone
days before he was to leave for Oshkosh in 1994. I sent proofs to him but
he missed many mistakes that were ultimately printed. It is very common in the
business. In subsequent additions I originally printed a large amount of the
full color covers, then I only printed small quantities of the inside pages in
an attempt to catch any mistakes that were previously printed. Unfortunately
organization or lack thereof at KIS headquarters perpetuated typos in the sales
brochures (and builders manuals too). There are other mistakes stated, just
to name a couple of them - the horizontal stab thickness is 10% not 12% as shown;
tail areas shown are probably not accurate; the wing chord is 56 not 49.
I am sorry to say but if you really want to know the real specifications they
would have to be physically measured.
As for the horizontal tail, Rich told me the original TR-4 prototype N93RT had
a modified tail from a Lancair IV or the ES (not sure which on it was). As for
the kit version he made another set of horizontal tail molds. To the best of
my knowledge that was the only horizontal tail, there was no other version. It
is 8 9, as is the tail I physically measured on Cody Austins TR-4.
Not all TR-4 builders made changes. Bob Andersons TR-4 is totally stock and he
has no intentions of modifying it. He has learned to fly it as is. I just received
an email from Ed Hanson and he has extended the elevator by 2, and he also
canted the main gear forward (which is noticeable in the pictures in the chapter
104 newsletter link I posted on Robert Reeds thread).
Regards,
Mark T.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409125#409125
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| Subject: | Re: Closing the fuselage |
Yes Scott, it came off as very abrasive as in Sand, sand, and more sanding
abrasive.=C2- That is actually the exact plan that I was following.=C2-
The recommended process was three coats of color followed by color sanding
with 600 grit and followed by two to three coats of clear coat that depend
ing on desired finish could be sanded with the 1000 and 2000 grit followed
with a buff out.=C2- I was able to do the rudder early one morning after
leaving the A/C on with a humidifier going and wetting down the floor.=C2
- The color coats came out looking pretty darn good and would have only r
equired the 600 grit sanding before clear gloss.=C2- The flaps, ailerons,
and elevators were much less successful and you can see definite brush mar
ks that are too pronounce to sand out without another color coat.=C2- I t
ried the HVLP spray and didn't have any luck with it.=C2- Could not keep
a wet edge and it ended up running.=C2- =0A=C2-=0AI may try spraying ag
ain after the weather cools some.=C2- Thinking about getting one of those
portable garage covers to use and paint outside as you suggested if I can'
t find a shop to do the spraying for me.=0A=C2-=0AOne way or the other it
will get done.=0A=C2-=0ABob =0A=0A________________________________=0A Fr
om: Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com>=0ATo: "kis-list@matronics.com" <kis
-list@matronics.com> =0ASent: Monday, September 23, 2013 6:33 PM=0ASubject:
Re: KIS-List: Closing the fuselage=0A =0A=0A=0AI have to agree. =C2-I s
tarted with the poly... water based primer. =C2-Bg waste of time and mone
y. =C2-=C2-=0A=0AI highly recommend going to the local auto body/paint
supply store and telling them you need a=0Ahigh build sandable primer and p
aint the you can color sand and buff out. =C2-If you are using a roller
=0Athrow it away and buy the $15 hvlp spray gun from harbor frieght. =C2-
=C2-=0A=0AI primer and painted my airplane in pieces outside. =C2-With
the hvlp gun the overspray is pretty minmal.=0A=0APrimer is easy, just hose
it down and block it down.=0A=0ADont worry about a little dirt or dust in
the paint and dont worry about the initial surface finish.=0ASpray a thin p
aint coat, let it cure for 15 minutes then a medium coat, 15 minutes, anoth
er medium coat,=C2-=0ALet it dry for a few days and color sand it with=C2
-=0A1000 grit, then 2000 grit, then buff it with a $40 harbor frieght pai
nt buffer. =C2-Get some buffing pads=C2-=0Aand buffing compound from th
e auto paint supply place. =C2-=0A=0AI get compliments on the paint finis
h of my airplane =C2-all the time. =C2-It is amazing what a little sand
ing=C2-=0Aand buffing can do. =C2-=0A=0A=C2-Sorry if this comes off a
s a little abrasive, but following this advise would have saved me hundreds
=C2-=0Aof hours.=0A=0AScott=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Sep 23, 2013, at 12:54 PM
, jerzy krasinski <jerzy_krasinski@sbcglobal.net> wrote:=0A=0A=0ABob,=0A>
=0A>=0A>I had a very bad experience using water based polymer paint.=C2-
=0A>The damn paint was running down even in hot and dry Oklahoma. It requir
ed to paint surfaces in a close to horizontal arrangement.=C2-=0A>I cant
imagine how to use this paint in humid Eastern and South states=0A>I select
ed it because it was heavily advertised as non toxic specially developed fo
r home builders=0A>Somehow I managed to get it painted. =C2-=0A>The real
problem started when =C2- the plane was exposed to the =C2-first rain.
=C2-A short light =C2-rain and the whole surface developed sticking out
bubbles filled with water.=0A>I had to grind and peel off the whole paint
=0A>I painted the whole thing again with a regular automotive paint with or
ganic isocyanate as a hardener. The spray of this paint is toxic but it has
low vapor pressure so you do not have to worry about vapor poisoning. I ma
de a wind tunnel of plastic sheets and a large blower to direct the flow of
spray particles out of the painting room. I painted in a gas mask protecti
ng my eyes and lungs.=0A>The automotive paint worked as a charm. No compari
son with the troubles caused by the other =C2-crappy stuff.=0A>Do not buy
false argument that automotive paint is not good for airplanes! These argu
ment were spread by producers of the useless water based paint.=0A>I forgot
the name of the company that sold me that water based paint, they are not
worth remembering anyway.=C2-=0A>It was something starting with POLY....
=C2- and they specialized in home build plane market, mostly fabric for t
he wings.=C2-=0A>=0A>=0A>Jerzy=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>__________________________
______=0A> From: Robert Reed <robertr237@att.net>=0A>To: "kis-list@matronic
s.com" <kis-list@matronics.com> =0A>Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 11:35
AM=0A>Subject: Re: KIS-List: Closing the fuselage=0A> =0A>=0A>=0A>Mike,=0A
>=C2-=0A>I learned my lesson in May when I tried painting the flaps, elev
ator and ailerons.=C2- The paint is a water based polymer that was settin
g up before it had a chance to flow out and resulted in brush marks=C2-ne
eding to be sanded.=C2- The recommendation is 70 degrees or less with 60%
or more humidity.=C2-=C2-The coating is so hard that sanding it is lik
e sanding clear epoxy.=C2- I will have no choice but to use the roll and
tip with that paint for the fuselage.=C2- There is no paint shop on the f
ield and we are not allowed to spray in the "T" hangars for some reason.=C2
- The ONLY time of the year when those requirements might be met inside m
y hangar will be between late November and first of March.=C2- I want to
have everything ready for the first cool wet day that will allow me to appl
y at least a half way decent paint job.=C2- Still hoping that I can get t
he wings and all other removable parts spray painted by a professional thou
gh.=0A>=C2-=0A>Looking forward to seeing=C2-those progress photos,=C2
- =0A>=0A>Bob=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>________________________________=0A> Fro
m: Mike Pienaar <mjpienaar@shaw.ca>=0A>To: kis-list@matronics.com =0A>Sent:
Sunday, September 22, 2013 11:15 PM=0A>Subject: Re: KIS-List: Closing the
fuselage=0A> =0A>=0A>=0A>=EF=BB =0A>Bob, =0A>=C2- =0A>Thanks for your
input, I have exactly the opposite =0Aproblem to you, I wanted to get the
painting done before the wet and cold set in =0Abut I also wanted to finish
the inside of the fuselage as much as possible. =0AAchieved neither during
summer. =0A>=C2- =0A>Will post foto's of my progress soon. =0A>=C2-
=0A>Keep well =0A>=C2- =0A>Mike =0A>----- Original Message ----- =0A>>Fr
om: Robert Reed =0A>>To: kis-list@matronics.com =0A>>Sent: Sunday, Septem
ber 22, 2013 6:15 PM =0A>>Subject: Re: KIS-List: Closing the fuselage =0A
>>=0A>> =0A>>Mike, =0A>>=C2- =0A>>This is one of those damned if you do,
damned if you don't situations.=C2- Most of my interior is in the final,
awaiting installation stage with the key exception of the electrical syst
ems.=C2- I had been planning to do all the electrical possible before cl
osing out the top but decided I would be better off to concentrate on comp
leting ALL the glass and epoxy work during the summer and fall while I had
warm weather.=C2- Primary reason being that I wanted to be ready to pri
me and paint as soon as cool wet weather allows it.=C2- A second reason
being there is no way I want to be working inside the fuselage when it is
90 to 100 degrees.=C2- I can work the electrical in cool weather a lot e
asier than hot. =0A>>=C2- =0A>>I have installed hard mounting points for
most of the interior plumbing and electrical.=C2- The brake lines are al
l in as well.=C2- I will be mounting the two batteries (Oddessy PC680) o
n either side of the center console with the master, starter, and crossove
r relays in the same area under the front seats.=C2- The voltage regulat
ors will also be in the same area.=C2- It makes use of a dead area that
can't really=C2-be used for anything else since I am using adjustable se
ats and rails.=C2- =0A>>=C2- =0A>>Oh, I have also done paper patterns
for all of the upholstry and the seats have all been done. =0A>>=C2- =0A
>>Bob=C2- =0A>>=0A>>________________________________=0A>>From: Mike Piena
ar <mjpienaar@shaw.ca>=0A>>To: kis-list@matronics.com =0A>>Sent: Sunday, S
eptember 22, 2013 6:25 PM=0A>>Subject: KIS-List: Closing the fuselage=0A>>
=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=EF=BB =0A>>Hi Bob =0A>>=C2- =0A>>I see in the foto's
of your exhaust that you have closed the fuselage. How far have you progr
essed on the interior? =0A>>=C2- =0A>>I am holding off closing the fuseal
ge till I have done as much as possible on the interior and I'm busy with
the wiring now, =0A>>would hate to have done it with the fuselage closed
but not closing the fuselage delays other items. Always a difficult compro
mise =0A>>=C2- =0A>>Good luck =0A>>=C2- =0A>>Mike =0A>>----- Original
Message ----- =0A>>>From: Robert Reed =0A>>>To: kis-list@matronics.com
=0A>>>Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 8:09 AM =0A>>>Subject: Re: KIS-List
: Re: Trial Fit of 4 into 1 Exhaust =0A>>>=0A>>> =0A>>>Mark, =0A>>>=C2-
=0A>>>A very nice looking Cruiser and it looks like I won't be the next on
e flying after all.=C2- =0A>>>=C2- =0A>>>Oh well, progress is progress
and I am inching =0Aalong. =0A>>>=C2- =0A>>>Bob Reed =0A>>>=0A>>> =0A>>>
=0A>>>________________________________=0A>>>From: mark_trickel <marktrickel
@gmail.com>=0A>>>To: kis-list@matronics.com =0A>>>Sent: Tuesday, September
17, 2013 8:27 AM=0A>>>Subject: KIS-List: Re: Trial Fit of 4 into 1 Exhaust
=0A>>> =0A>>>=0A>>>--> KIS-List message posted =0A by: "mark_trickel" <m
arktrickel@gmail.com>=0A>>>=0A>>>Wow, =0A that sure does look pretty. On
e more step to completion checked off the =0A list. Here=C3=A2=82=AC
=84=A2s a little inspiration I found last =0A week:=0A>>>=0A>>>http:/
/eaa104.org/documents/NL0913.pdf=0A>>>=0A>>>Check page 6 of =0A this cha
pter newsletter. I had this one as flying but it is not. Apparently =0A
in the eyes of some States if it is registered at the FAA it is flyable, an
d =0A they are entitled to sales tax, and yearly registration fees (unli
ke the =0A project car I have). In the paper work for my airplane is a s
tack of yearly =0A Minnesota registration receipts. In 18 years the thin
g never left the =0A hanger. Looks like Ed Hanson will be flying by year
s end.=0A>>>=0A>>>Mark =0A T.=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>Read this top
ic online =0A here:=0A>>>=0A>>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php
?p=408727#408727 =0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>href="http://www.m
atronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-Lis
t href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com/ href
="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c =0A>>
http://www.matronics.com/================
= =0A>>=0A>>=0A>>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">htt
p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List href="http://forums.matronics.co
m/">http://forums.matronics.com/ href="http://www.matronics.com/contribut
ion">http://www.matronics.com/c =0A>http://www.matronics.com/====
============= =0A>=0A> =0A>http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?KIS-Listw" target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.c
om/contribution">http://==/==============
======= =0A>=0A> =0A>============
========================0A//w
ww.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List=0A============
========================0Acs.
com=0A=======================
=============0Amatronics.com/contribution=0A==
====================
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Closing the fuselage |
I would try the spray gun again. Dont worry about the surface finish or get
ting it to flow out. It will run.
Do 4-5 think coats and wait 10-15 minutes between coats.
Scott
On Sep 24, 2013, at 4:52 AM, Robert Reed <robertr237@att.net> wrote:
> Yes Scott, it came off as very abrasive as in Sand, sand, and more sanding
abrasive. That is actually the exact plan that I was following. The recom
mended process was three coats of color followed by color sanding with 600 g
rit and followed by two to three coats of clear coat that depending on desir
ed finish could be sanded with the 1000 and 2000 grit followed with a buff o
ut. I was able to do the rudder early one morning after leaving the A/C on w
ith a humidifier going and wetting down the floor. The color coats came out
looking pretty darn good and would have only required the 600 grit sanding b
efore clear gloss. The flaps, ailerons, and elevators were much less succes
sful and you can see definite brush marks that are too pronounce to sand out
without another color coat. I tried the HVLP spray and didn't have any luc
k with it. Could not keep a wet edge and it ended up running.
>
> I may try spraying again after the weather cools some. Thinking about get
ting one of those portable garage covers to use and paint outside as you sug
gested if I can't find a shop to do the spraying for me.
>
> One way or the other it will get done.
>
> Bob
> From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com>
> To: "kis-list@matronics.com" <kis-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 6:33 PM
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Closing the fuselage
>
> I have to agree. I started with the poly... water based primer. Bg waste
of time and money.
>
> I highly recommend going to the local auto body/paint supply store and tel
ling them you need a
> high build sandable primer and paint the you can color sand and buff out.
If you are using a roller
> throw it away and buy the $15 hvlp spray gun from harbor frieght.
>
> I primer and painted my airplane in pieces outside. With the hvlp gun the
overspray is pretty minmal.
>
> Primer is easy, just hose it down and block it down.
>
> Dont worry about a little dirt or dust in the paint and dont worry about t
he initial surface finish.
> Spray a thin paint coat, let it cure for 15 minutes then a medium coat, 15
minutes, another medium coat,
> Let it dry for a few days and color sand it with
> 1000 grit, then 2000 grit, then buff it with a $40 harbor frieght paint bu
ffer. Get some buffing pads
> and buffing compound from the auto paint supply place.
>
> I get compliments on the paint finish of my airplane all the time. It is
amazing what a little sanding
> and buffing can do.
>
> Sorry if this comes off as a little abrasive, but following this advise w
ould have saved me hundreds
> of hours.
>
> Scott
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 23, 2013, at 12:54 PM, jerzy krasinski <jerzy_krasinski@sbcglobal.n
et> wrote:
>
>> Bob,
>>
>> I had a very bad experience using water based polymer paint.
>> The damn paint was running down even in hot and dry Oklahoma. It required
to paint surfaces in a close to horizontal arrangement.
>> I cant imagine how to use this paint in humid Eastern and South states
>> I selected it because it was heavily advertised as non toxic specially de
veloped for home builders
>> Somehow I managed to get it painted.
>> The real problem started when the plane was exposed to the first rain.
A short light rain and the whole surface developed sticking out bubbles f
illed with water.
>> I had to grind and peel off the whole paint
>> I painted the whole thing again with a regular automotive paint with orga
nic isocyanate as a hardener. The spray of this paint is toxic but it has lo
w vapor pressure so you do not have to worry about vapor poisoning. I made a
wind tunnel of plastic sheets and a large blower to direct the flow of spra
y particles out of the painting room. I painted in a gas mask protecting my e
yes and lungs.
>> The automotive paint worked as a charm. No comparison with the troubles c
aused by the other crappy stuff.
>> Do not buy false argument that automotive paint is not good for airplanes
! These argument were spread by producers of the useless water based paint.
>> I forgot the name of the company that sold me that water based paint, the
y are not worth remembering anyway.
>> It was something starting with POLY.... and they specialized in home bu
ild plane market, mostly fabric for the wings.
>>
>> Jerzy
>>
>> From: Robert Reed <robertr237@att.net>
>> To: "kis-list@matronics.com" <kis-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 11:35 AM
>> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Closing the fuselage
>>
>> Mike,
>>
>> I learned my lesson in May when I tried painting the flaps, elevator and a
ilerons. The paint is a water based polymer that was setting up before it h
ad a chance to flow out and resulted in brush marks needing to be sanded. T
he recommendation is 70 degrees or less with 60% or more humidity. The coat
ing is so hard that sanding it is like sanding clear epoxy. I will have no c
hoice but to use the roll and tip with that paint for the fuselage. There i
s no paint shop on the field and we are not allowed to spray in the "T" hang
ars for some reason. The ONLY time of the year when those requirements migh
t be met inside my hangar will be between late November and first of March.
I want to have everything ready for the first cool wet day that will allow m
e to apply at least a half way decent paint job. Still hoping that I can ge
t the wings and all other removable parts spray painted by a professional th
ough.
>>
>> Looking forward to seeing those progress photos,
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Mike Pienaar <mjpienaar@shaw.ca>
>> To: kis-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 11:15 PM
>> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Closing the fuselage
>>
>> =EF=BB
>> Bob,
>>
>> Thanks for your input, I have exactly the opposite problem to you, I want
ed to get the painting done before the wet and cold set in but I also wanted
to finish the inside of the fuselage as much as possible. Achieved neither d
uring summer.
>>
>> Will post foto's of my progress soon.
>>
>> Keep well
>>
>> Mike
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Robert Reed
>> To: kis-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 6:15 PM
>> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Closing the fuselage
>>
>> Mike,
>>
>> This is one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't situations. M
ost of my interior is in the final, awaiting installation stage with the key
exception of the electrical systems. I had been planning to do all the ele
ctrical possible before closing out the top but decided I would be better of
f to concentrate on completing ALL the glass and epoxy work during the summe
r and fall while I had warm weather. Primary reason being that I wanted to b
e ready to prime and paint as soon as cool wet weather allows it. A second r
eason being there is no way I want to be working inside the fuselage when it
is 90 to 100 degrees. I can work the electrical in cool weather a lot easi
er than hot.
>>
>> I have installed hard mounting points for most of the interior plumbing a
nd electrical. The brake lines are all in as well. I will be mounting the t
wo batteries (Oddessy PC680) on either side of the center console with the m
aster, starter, and crossover relays in the same area under the front seats.
The voltage regulators will also be in the same area. It makes use of a d
ead area that can't really be used for anything else since I am using adjust
able seats and rails.
>>
>> Oh, I have also done paper patterns for all of the upholstry and the seat
s have all been done.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> From: Mike Pienaar <mjpienaar@shaw.ca>
>> To: kis-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 6:25 PM
>> Subject: KIS-List: Closing the fuselage
>>
>> =EF=BB
>> Hi Bob
>>
>> I see in the foto's of your exhaust that you have closed the fuselage. Ho
w far have you progressed on the interior?
>>
>> I am holding off closing the fusealge till I have done as much as possibl
e on the interior and I'm busy with the wiring now,
>> would hate to have done it with the fuselage closed but not closing the f
uselage delays other items. Always a difficult compromise
>>
>> Good luck
>>
>> Mike
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Robert Reed
>> To: kis-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 8:09 AM
>> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: Trial Fit of 4 into 1 Exhaust
>>
>> Mark,
>>
>> A very nice looking Cruiser and it looks like I won't be the next one fly
ing after all.
>>
>> Oh well, progress is progress and I am inching along.
>>
>> Bob Reed
>>
>> From: mark_trickel <marktrickel@gmail.com>
>> To: kis-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 8:27 AM
>> Subject: KIS-List: Re: Trial Fit of 4 into 1 Exhaust
>>
>>
>> Wow, that sure does look pretty. One more step to completion checked off t
he list. Here=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s a little inspiration I found last wee
k:
>>
>> http://eaa104.org/documents/NL0913.pdf
>>
>> Check page 6 of this chapter newsletter. I had this one as flying but it i
s not. Apparently in the eyes of some States if it is registered at the FAA i
t is flyable, and they are entitled to sales tax, and yearly registration fe
es (unlike the project car I have). In the paper work for my airplane is a s
tack of yearly Minnesota registration receipts. In 18 years the thing never l
eft the hanger. Looks like Ed Hanson will be flying by years end.
>>
>> Mark T.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408727#408727
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics
.com/Navigator?KIS-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com/
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>> http://www.matronics.com/================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics
.com/Navigator?KIS-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com/
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>> http://www.matronics.com/================
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-Listw" target="_blank" href="h
ttp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://==/========
============
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> =========================
=========
>> //www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
>> =========================
=========
>> cs.com
>> =========
>> matronics.com/contribution
>> =========
>>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List-==========
==============p://www.matronics.com/contribution
" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http============
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Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Horizontal Tail Span |
Mark (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)
If the aircraft runs out of elevator authority after toutchdown, the best solution
would be moving the main gear forward as you suggest or maybe canting the
gear forward as Mark Trickel said.
One important thing to remember is that having enough elevator authority at altitude
does not means that there is enough elevator during landing flare, sice
the ground effect reduces the elevator authority.
That's why it important to know (although difficult to notice the difference) if
the aircraft runs out of elevator authority right before or after the main gear
toutchdown.
Mark Trickel,
I've noticed that there are some not accurate specs on the published documentation
and that's why it is nice to have guys like you on the list.
Speaking about the wing airfoil, I've noticed that the wing airfoil on the sales
brochure is the Naca 65-415. I have a Contact! paper about the cruiser, signed
by Rich, with Naca 63(2)-215. Do you know what is the correct one?
Best,
Fabricio
--------
Fabricio Pereira
Engineer / Pilot
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409145#409145
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Closing the fuselage |
OK but if it runs down like it did the last time I tried the gun I am going
to call on you to help sand it off and start over again.=C2- That's what
I did with the wing the last time, sanded it all off, re-primed and sanded
again prepping for color coat.=C2- One more time and I may use a chainsa
w for the sanding.=C2- <BG>=0A=C2-=0ASeriously, I was going to try some
small pieces with the sprayer to try and build experience and confidence b
ut of all the things I have done on the plane, all of the redo's, that was
probably the worst and most discouraging.=C2- =0A=C2-=0ABob =0A=0A_____
___________________________=0A From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com>=0A
tember 24, 2013 1:15 PM=0ASubject: Re: KIS-List: Closing the fuselage=0A
=0A=0A=0AI would try the spray gun again. =C2-Dont worry about the surfac
e finish or getting it to flow out. =C2-It will run. =C2-=0A=0ADo 4-5 t
hink coats and wait 10-15 minutes between coats.=0A=0AScott=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AO
n Sep 24, 2013, at 4:52 AM, Robert Reed <robertr237@att.net> wrote:=0A=0A
=0AYes Scott, it came off as very abrasive as in Sand, sand, and more sandi
ng abrasive.=C2- That is actually the exact plan that I was following.=C2
- The recommended process was three coats of color followed by color sand
ing with 600 grit and followed by two to three coats of clear coat that dep
ending on desired finish could be sanded with the 1000 and 2000 grit follow
ed with a buff out.=C2- I was able to do the rudder early one morning aft
er leaving the A/C on with a humidifier going and wetting down the floor.
=C2- The color coats came out looking pretty darn good and would have onl
y required the 600 grit sanding before clear gloss.=C2- The flaps, ailero
ns, and elevators were much less successful and you can see definite brush
marks that are too pronounce to sand out without another color coat.=C2-
I tried the HVLP spray and didn't have any luck with it.=C2- Could not ke
ep a wet edge and it ended up running.=C2- =0A>=C2-=0A>I may try sprayi
ng again after the weather cools some.=C2- Thinking about getting one of
those portable garage covers to use and paint outside as you suggested if I
can't find a shop to do the spraying for me.=0A>=C2-=0A>One way or the o
ther it will get done.=0A>=0A>Bob =0A>=0A>________________________________
=0A> From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com>=0A>To: "kis-list@matronics.c
om" <kis-list@matronics.com> =0A>Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 6:33 PM
=0A>Subject: Re: KIS-List: Closing the fuselage=0A> =0A>=0A>=0A>I have to
agree. =C2-I started with the poly... water based primer. =C2-Bg waste
of time and money. =C2-=C2-=0A>=0A>=0A>I highly recommend going to the
local auto body/paint supply store and telling them you need a=0A>high buil
d sandable primer and paint the you can color sand and buff out. =C2-If y
ou are using a roller=0A>throw it away and buy the $15 hvlp spray gun from
harbor frieght. =C2-=C2-=0A>=0A>=0A>I primer and painted my airplane in
pieces outside. =C2-With the hvlp gun the overspray is pretty minmal.=0A
>=0A>=0A>Primer is easy, just hose it down and block it down.=0A>=0A>=0A>Do
nt worry about a little dirt or dust in the paint and dont worry about the
initial surface finish.=0A>Spray a thin paint coat, let it cure for 15 minu
tes then a medium coat, 15 minutes, another medium coat,=C2-=0A>Let it dr
y for a few days and color sand it with=C2-=0A>1000 grit, then 2000 grit,
then buff it with a $40 harbor frieght paint buffer. =C2-Get some buffin
g pads=C2-=0A>and buffing compound from the auto paint supply place. =C2
-=0A>=0A>=0A>I get compliments on the paint finish of my airplane =C2-a
ll the time. =C2-It is amazing what a little sanding=C2-=0A>and buffing
can do. =C2-=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2-Sorry if this comes off as a little abrasi
ve, but following this advise would have saved me hundreds=C2-=0A>of hour
s.=0A>=0A>=0A>Scott=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>On Sep 23, 2013, at 12:5
4 PM, jerzy krasinski <jerzy_krasinski@sbcglobal.net> wrote:=0A>=0A>=0A>Bob
,=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>I had a very bad experience using water based polymer paint
.=C2-=0A>>The damn paint was running down even in hot and dry Oklahoma. I
t required to paint surfaces in a close to horizontal arrangement.=C2-=0A
>>I cant imagine how to use this paint in humid Eastern and South states=0A
>>I selected it because it was heavily advertised as non toxic specially de
veloped for home builders=0A>>Somehow I managed to get it painted. =C2-
=0A>>The real problem started when =C2- the plane was exposed to the =C2
-first rain. =C2-A short light =C2-rain and the whole surface develop
ed sticking out bubbles filled with water.=0A>>I had to grind and peel off
the whole paint=0A>>I painted the whole thing again with a regular automoti
ve paint with organic isocyanate as a hardener. The spray of this paint is
toxic but it has low vapor pressure so you do not have to worry about vapor
poisoning. I made a wind tunnel of plastic sheets and a large blower to di
rect the flow of spray particles out of the painting room. I painted in a g
as mask protecting my eyes and lungs.=0A>>The automotive paint worked as a
charm. No comparison with the troubles caused by the other =C2-crappy stu
ff.=0A>>Do not buy false argument that automotive paint is not good for air
planes! These argument were spread by producers of the useless water based
paint.=0A>>I forgot the name of the company that sold me that water based p
aint, they are not worth remembering anyway.=C2-=0A>>It was something sta
rting with POLY.... =C2- and they specialized in home build plane market,
mostly fabric for the wings.=C2-=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Jerzy=0A>>=0A>> =0A>>=0A>
>________________________________=0A>> From: Robert Reed <robertr237@att.ne
t>=0A>>To: "kis-list@matronics.com" <kis-list@matronics.com> =0A>>Sent: Mon
day, September 23, 2013 11:35 AM=0A>>Subject: Re: KIS-List: Closing the fus
elage=0A>> =0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Mike,=0A>>=C2-=0A>>I learned my lesson in May
when I tried painting the flaps, elevator and ailerons.=C2- The paint is
a water based polymer that was setting up before it had a chance to flow ou
t and resulted in brush marks=C2-needing to be sanded.=C2- The recommen
dation is 70 degrees or less with 60% or more humidity.=C2-=C2-The coat
ing is so hard that sanding it is like sanding clear epoxy.=C2- I will ha
ve no choice but to use the roll and tip with that paint for the fuselage.
=C2- There is no paint shop on the field and we are not allowed to spray
in the "T" hangars for some reason.=C2- The ONLY time of the year when th
ose requirements might be met inside my hangar will be between late Novembe
r and first of March.=C2- I want to have everything ready for the first c
ool wet day that will allow me to apply at least a half way decent paint jo
b.=C2- Still hoping that I can get the wings and all other removable part
s spray painted by a professional though.=0A>>=C2-=0A>>Looking forward to
seeing=C2-those progress photos,=C2- =0A>>=0A>>Bob=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>
=0A>>________________________________=0A>> From: Mike Pienaar <mjpienaar@sh
aw.ca>=0A>>To: kis-list@matronics.com =0A>>Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013
11:15 PM=0A>>Subject: Re: KIS-List: Closing the fuselage=0A>> =0A>>=0A>>
=0A>>=EF=BB =0A>>Bob, =0A>>=C2- =0A>>Thanks for your input, I have exa
ctly the opposite =0Aproblem to you, I wanted to get the painting done befo
re the wet and cold set in =0Abut I also wanted to finish the inside of the
fuselage as much as possible. =0AAchieved neither during summer. =0A>>=C2
- =0A>>Will post foto's of my progress soon. =0A>>=C2- =0A>>Keep well
=0A>>=C2- =0A>>Mike =0A>>----- Original Message ----- =0A>>>From: Robert
Reed =0A>>>To: kis-list@matronics.com =0A>>>Sent: Sunday, September 22,
2013 6:15 PM =0A>>>Subject: Re: KIS-List: Closing the fuselage =0A>>>=0A>
>> =0A>>>Mike, =0A>>>=C2- =0A>>>This is one of those damned if you do, da
mned if you don't situations.=C2- Most of my interior is in the final, a
waiting installation stage with the key exception of the electrical system
s.=C2- I had been planning to do all the electrical possible before clos
ing out the top but decided I would be better off to concentrate on comple
ting ALL the glass and epoxy work during the summer and fall while I had w
arm weather.=C2- Primary reason being that I wanted to be ready to prime
and paint as soon as cool wet weather allows it.=C2- A second reason be
ing there is no way I want to be working inside the fuselage when it is 90
to 100 degrees.=C2- I can work the electrical in cool weather a lot eas
ier than hot. =0A>>>=C2- =0A>>>I have installed hard mounting points for
most of the interior plumbing and electrical.=C2- The brake lines are al
l in as well.=C2- I will be mounting the two batteries (Oddessy PC680) o
n either side of the center console with the master, starter, and crossove
r relays in the same area under the front seats.=C2- The voltage regulat
ors will also be in the same area.=C2- It makes use of a dead area that
can't really=C2-be used for anything else since I am using adjustable se
ats and rails.=C2- =0A>>>=C2- =0A>>>Oh, I have also done paper pattern
s for all of the upholstry and the seats have all been done. =0A>>>=C2-
=0A>>>Bob=C2- =0A>>>=0A>>>________________________________=0A>>>From: Mik
e Pienaar <mjpienaar@shaw.ca>=0A>>>To: kis-list@matronics.com =0A>>>Sent:
Sunday, September 22, 2013 6:25 PM=0A>>>Subject: KIS-List: Closing the fus
elage=0A>>> =0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=EF=BB =0A>>>Hi Bob =0A>>>=C2- =0A>>>I
see in the foto's of your exhaust that you have closed the fuselage. How f
ar have you progressed on the interior? =0A>>>=C2- =0A>>>I am holding off
closing the fusealge till I have done as much as possible on the interior
and I'm busy with the wiring now, =0A>>>would hate to have done it with t
he fuselage closed but not closing the fuselage delays other items. Always
a difficult compromise =0A>>>=C2- =0A>>>Good luck =0A>>>=C2- =0A>>>Mi
ke =0A>>>----- Original Message ----- =0A>>>>From: Robert Reed =0A>>>>To
: kis-list@matronics.com =0A>>>>Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 8:09 AM
=0A>>>>Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: Trial Fit of 4 into 1 Exhaust =0A>>>>=0A>
>>> =0A>>>>Mark, =0A>>>>=C2- =0A>>>>A very nice looking Cruiser and it lo
oks like I won't be the next one flying after all.=C2- =0A>>>>=C2-
=0A>>>>Oh well, progress is progress and I am inching =0Aalong. =0A>>>>=C2
- =0A>>>>Bob Reed =0A>>>>=0A>>>> =0A>>>>=0A>>>>__________________________
______=0A>>>>From: mark_trickel <marktrickel@gmail.com>=0A>>>>To: kis-list@
matronics.com =0A>>>>Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 8:27 AM=0A>>>>Subje
ct: KIS-List: Re: Trial Fit of 4 into 1 Exhaust=0A>>>> =0A>>>>=0A>>>>--> KI
S-List message posted =0A by: "mark_trickel" <marktrickel@gmail.com>=0A>
>>>=0A>>>>Wow, =0A that sure does look pretty. One more step to completi
on checked off the =0A list. Here=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s a little insp
iration I found last =0A week:=0A>>>>=0A>>>>http://eaa104.org/documents/
NL0913.pdf=0A>>>>=0A>>>>Check page 6 of =0A this chapter newsletter. I h
ad this one as flying but it is not. Apparently =0A in the eyes of some
States if it is registered at the FAA it is flyable, and =0A they are en
titled to sales tax, and yearly registration fees (unlike the =0A projec
t car I have). In the paper work for my airplane is a stack of yearly =0A
Minnesota registration receipts. In 18 years the thing never left the =0A
hanger. Looks like Ed Hanson will be flying by years end.=0A>>>>=0A>>>>
Mark =0A T.=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>Read this topic online =0A
here:=0A>>>>=0A>>>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408727
#408727 =0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>href="http://www.matron
ics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List hre
f="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com/ href="htt
p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c =0A>>>http:/
/www.matronics.com/================= =0A>
>>=0A>>>=0A>>>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://w
ww.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List href="http://forums.matronics.com/">h
ttp://forums.matronics.com/ href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">
http://www.matronics.com/c =0A>>http://www.matronics.com/=====
============ =0A>>=0A>> =0A>>http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?KIS-Listw" target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.c
om/contribution">http://==/==============
======= =0A>>=0A>> =0A>>===========
=========================0A
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======================== cs
.com ========== matronics.com/contribution ====
====== =0A>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List-==
======================p://www.m
atronics.com/contribution" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http===
===================== =0A>=0A>
=0A>=======================
=============0A//www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-Li
st=0A=======================
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Horizontal Tail Span |
I ran out of elevator authority in the air even before landing. Once I
touched down the nose came down hard. The VGs helped a LOT since I did not
want to do surgery and make the elevator bigger,
On Tuesday, September 24, 2013, Mark Kettering wrote:
> >
>
> Hi Galin,
>
> Did your elevator run out of authority while in the air or after touch
> down? If it was only after touch down then the problem could be the main
> gear placement and not the elevator. From my TR-4 time I found the elevator
> had sufficient authority to stall the wing in any configuration except very
> far forward CG and light loading. Even at very far forward CG there was
> sufficient authority to fly with minimum airspeed and be just mushing
> along. Of course not all builds are the same so your aircraft could be
> different.
>
> What did happen on the factory TR-4 was at touch down the center of "lift"
> moved aft from the lift center of the wing to the main gear contact. This
> creates a strong nose down pitching moment and the stock elevator did not
> have sufficient authority to keep the nose off the ground. But instead of
> increasing the elevator authority to more than is needed in the air why not
> correct the placement of the main gear that is causing the nose down
> pitching moment after touchdown.
>
> Another problem the TR-4 has are the control forces. The ailerons are too
> heavy and the elevator is too light. Increasing the cord of the elevator
> helps increase the stick force per G along with adding elevator authority
> if needed.
>
> When I was doing the engineering for Tri-R and Liaoning Pacific Aviation
> for certification of the TR-4 in China these 2 changes were part of those
> required for part 23. The modified TR-4 has a type certificate in China.
>
> Mark
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Galin Hernandez
>
> Sent: Sep 23, 2013 11:02 AM
>
> To: "kis-list@matronics.com <javascript:;>"
>
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: Horizontal Tail Span
>
>
> I recommend you increase the tail span if possible. The smaller tail runs
> out of elevator authority just before you land and you can't keep the nose
> wheel up very long. The landings wind up being a little hard on the nose
> gear.
>
> Since I have the smaller tail, I added vortex generators to the bottom of
> the elevator. Now on approach I don't run out of elevator authority and I
> can keep the nose wheel off the runway for quite a while after landing. The
> landings are significantly softer on the nose wheel because of this.
>
> Galin
>
> On Monday, September 23, 2013, fasilpereira wrote:
> >
>
>
> I have an old TR-4 specs file from Contact Magazine where the horizontal
> tail span is listed at 8'9". Galin's Aircraft Manual also has 8'9".
>
>
> But if you take a look at the KIS TR-4 sales Brochure, the horizontal tail
> span is 10'3" (see attatched file). On the ZU-BKK aircrafy manual also has
> the same span for the horizontal tail.
>
>
> That's what I though that the tail span was increased during the
> development of the kits.
>
>
> Best,
>
>
> Fabricio
>
>
> --------
>
> Fabricio Pereira
>
> Engineer / Pilot
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409031#409031
>
>
> Attachments:
>
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/kis_tr4_sales_brochure_923.jpg
>
>
> ==========
>
> rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
>
> ==========
>
> http://forums.matronics.com
>
> ==========
>
> le, List Admin.
>
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> ==========
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Closing the fuselage |
I was talking with a professional painter and his opinion was that the pain
t should not be ground/polished.=0AHe claimed that once you cut the polymer
chains of the paint and create gazilions of microcracks =C2-in the paint
layer, you strongly reduce its resistance to air and weather.=0AI have see
n his painting results and they looked GREAT.=0AThe only problem with his a
pproach is that one needs to have a lot of experience and a steady hand to
get it right=C2-=0A=0A=0AAfter grinding off the damn POLY...... =C2-wat
er based paint I had enough of grinding, so I left the final automotive pai
nt as it was after spraying.=0AIts not an exhibition quality but it looks o
k. I preferred flying rather than grinding.=0A=0AJerzy=0A=0A=0A____________
____________________=0A From: Robert Reed <robertr237@att.net>=0ATo: "kis-l
ist@matronics.com" <kis-list@matronics.com> =0ASent: Tuesday, September 24,
2013 9:52 AM=0ASubject: Re: KIS-List: Closing the fuselage=0A =0A=0A=0AYes
Scott, it came off as very abrasive as in Sand, sand, and more sanding abr
asive.=C2- That is actually the exact plan that I was following.=C2- Th
e recommended process was three coats of color followed by color sanding wi
th 600 grit and followed by two to three coats of clear coat that depending
on desired finish could be sanded with the 1000 and 2000 grit followed wit
h a buff out.=C2- I was able to do the rudder early one morning after lea
ving the A/C on with a humidifier going and wetting down the floor.=C2- T
he color coats came out looking pretty darn good and would have only requir
ed the 600 grit sanding before clear gloss.=C2- The flaps, ailerons, and
elevators were much less successful and you can see definite brush marks th
at are too pronounce to sand out without another color coat.=C2- I tried
the HVLP spray and didn't have any luck with it.=C2- Could not keep a wet
edge and it ended up running.=C2- =0A=C2-=0AI may try spraying again a
fter the weather cools some.=C2- Thinking about getting one of those port
able garage covers to use and paint outside as you suggested if I can't fin
d a shop to do the spraying for me.=0A=C2-=0AOne way or the other it will
get done.=0A=C2-=0ABob=0AFrom: Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com>=0ATo:
"kis-list@matronics.com" <kis-list@matronics.com> =0ASent: Monday, Septemb
er 23, 2013 6:33 PM=0ASubject: Re: KIS-List: Closing the fuselage=0A =0A=0A
=0AI have to agree. =C2-I started with the poly... water based primer.
=C2-Bg waste of time and money. =C2-=C2-=0A=0AI highly recommend goin
g to the local auto body/paint supply store and telling them you need a=0Ah
igh build sandable primer and paint the you can color sand and buff out.
=C2-If you are using a roller=0Athrow it away and buy the $15 hvlp spray
gun from harbor frieght. =C2-=C2-=0A=0AI primer and painted my airplane
in pieces outside. =C2-With the hvlp gun the overspray is pretty minmal.
=0A=0APrimer is easy, just hose it down and block it down.=0A=0ADont worry
about a little dirt or dust in the paint and dont worry about the initial s
urface finish.=0ASpray a thin paint coat, let it cure for 15 minutes then a
medium coat, 15 minutes, another medium coat,=C2-=0ALet it dry for a few
days and color sand it with=C2-=0A1000 grit, then 2000 grit, then buff i
t with a $40 harbor frieght paint buffer. =C2-Get some buffing pads=C2-
=0Aand buffing compound from the auto paint supply place. =C2-=0A=0AI get
compliments on the paint finish of my airplane =C2-all the time. =C2-I
t is amazing what a little sanding=C2-=0Aand buffing can do. =C2-=0A=0A
=C2-Sorry if this comes off as a little abrasive, but following this advi
se would have saved me hundreds=C2-=0Aof hours.=0A=0AScott=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0AOn Sep 23, 2013, at 12:54 PM, jerzy krasinski <jerzy_krasinski@sbcglobal
.net> wrote:=0A=0A=0ABob,=0A>=0A>=0A>I had a very bad experience using wate
r based polymer paint.=C2-=0A>The damn paint was running down even in hot
and dry Oklahoma. It required to paint surfaces in a close to horizontal a
rrangement.=C2-=0A>I cant imagine how to use this paint in humid Eastern
and South states=0A>I selected it because it was heavily advertised as non
toxic specially developed for home builders=0A>Somehow I managed to get it
painted. =C2-=0A>The real problem started when =C2- the plane was expos
ed to the =C2-first rain. =C2-A short light =C2-rain and the whole su
rface developed sticking out bubbles filled with water.=0A>I had to grind a
nd peel off the whole paint=0A>I painted the whole thing again with a regul
ar automotive paint with organic isocyanate as a hardener. The spray of thi
s paint is toxic but it has low vapor pressure so you do not have to worry
about vapor poisoning. I made a wind tunnel of plastic sheets and a large b
lower to direct the flow of spray particles out of the painting room. I pai
nted in a gas mask protecting my eyes and lungs.=0A>The automotive paint wo
rked as a charm. No comparison with the troubles caused by the other =C2-
crappy stuff.=0A>Do not buy false argument that automotive paint is not goo
d for airplanes! These argument were spread by producers of the useless wat
er based paint.=0A>I forgot the name of the company that sold me that water
based paint, they are not worth remembering anyway.=C2-=0A>It was someth
ing starting with POLY.... =C2- and they specialized in home build plane
market, mostly fabric for the wings.=C2-=0A>=0A>=0A>Jerzy=0A>=0A>=0A>From
: Robert Reed <robertr237@att.net>=0A>To: "kis-list@matronics.com" <kis-lis
t@matronics.com> =0A>Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 11:35 AM=0A>Subject:
Re: KIS-List: Closing the fuselage=0A> =0A>=0A>=0A>Mike,=0A>=C2-=0A>I lea
rned my lesson in May when I tried painting the flaps, elevator and aileron
s.=C2- The paint is a water based polymer that was setting up before it h
ad a chance to flow out and resulted in brush marks=C2-needing to be sand
ed.=C2- The recommendation is 70 degrees or less with 60% or more humidit
y.=C2-=C2-The coating is so hard that sanding it is like sanding clear
epoxy.=C2- I will have no choice but to use the roll and tip with that pa
int for the fuselage.=C2- There is no paint shop on the field and we are
not allowed to spray in the "T" hangars for some reason.=C2- The ONLY tim
e of the year when those requirements might be met inside my hangar will be
between late November and first of March.=C2- I want to have everything
ready for the first cool wet day that will allow me to apply at least a hal
f way decent paint job.=C2- Still hoping that I can get the wings and all
other removable parts spray painted by a professional though.=0A>=C2-=0A
>Looking forward to seeing=C2-those progress photos,=C2- =0A>=C2-=0A>
Bob=0A>=C2-=0A>=C2-=0A>=C2-=0A>From: Mike Pienaar <mjpienaar@shaw.ca>
=0A>To: kis-list@matronics.com =0A>Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 11:15 P
M=0A>Subject: Re: KIS-List: Closing the fuselage=0A> =0A>=0A>=0A>=EF=BB
=0A>Bob,=0A>=C2-=0A>Thanks for your input, I have exactly the opposite
=0Aproblem to you, I wanted to get the painting done before the wet and col
d set in =0Abut I also wanted to finish the inside of the fuselage as much
as possible. =0AAchieved neither during summer.=0A>=C2-=0A>Will post foto
's of my progress soon.=0A>=C2-=0A>Keep well=0A>=C2-=0A>Mike=0A>----- O
riginal Message ----- =0A>>From: Robert Reed =0A>>To: kis-list@matronics.co
m =0A>>Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 6:15 PM=0A>>Subject: Re: KIS-List:
Closing the fuselage=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Mike,=0A>>=C2-=0A>>This is one of th
ose damned if you do, damned if you don't situations.=C2- Most of my int
erior is in the final, awaiting installation stage with the key exception
of the electrical systems.=C2- I had been planning to do all the electri
cal possible before closing out the top but decided I would be better off
to concentrate on completing ALL the glass and epoxy work during the summe
r and fall while I had warm weather.=C2- Primary reason being that I wan
ted to be ready to prime and paint as soon as cool wet weather allows it.
=C2- A second reason being there is no way I want to be working inside t
he fuselage when it is 90 to 100 degrees.=C2- I can work the electrical
in cool weather a lot easier than hot.=0A>>=C2-=0A>>I have installed hard
mounting points for most of the interior plumbing and electrical.=C2- T
he brake lines are all in as well.=C2- I will be mounting the two batter
ies (Oddessy PC680) on either side of the center console with the master,
starter, and crossover relays in the same area under the front seats.=C2
- The voltage regulators will also be in the same area.=C2- It makes u
se of a dead area that can't really=C2-be used for anything else since I
am using adjustable seats and rails.=C2- =0A>>=C2-=0A>>Oh, I have also
done paper patterns for all of the upholstry and the seats have all been
done.=0A>>=C2-=0A>>Bob=C2- =0A>>From: Mike Pienaar <mjpienaar@shaw.ca>
=0A>>To: kis-list@matronics.com =0A>>Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 6:25
PM=0A>>Subject: KIS-List: Closing the fuselage=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=EF=BB
=0A>>Hi Bob=0A>>=C2-=0A>>I see in the foto's of your exhaust that yo
u have closed the fuselage. How far have you progressed on the interior?
=0A>>=C2-=0A>>I am holding off closing the fusealge till I have done as
much as possible on the interior and I'm busy with the wiring now,=0A>>wou
ld hate to have done it with the fuselage closed but not closing the fusel
age delays other items. Always a difficult compromise=0A>>=C2-=0A>>Good
luck=0A>>=C2-=0A>>Mike=0A>>----- Original Message ----- =0A>>>From: Robe
rt Reed =0A>>>To: kis-list@matronics.com =0A>>>Sent: Tuesday, September 17,
2013 8:09 AM=0A>>>Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: Trial Fit of 4 into 1 Exhaust
=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>Mark,=0A>>>=C2-=0A>>>A very nice looking Cruiser and it
looks like I won't be the next one flying after all.=C2- =0A>>>=C2-
=0A>>>Oh well, progress is progress and I am inching =0Aalong.=0A>>>=C2-
=0A>>>Bob Reed=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>From: mark_trickel <marktrickel@gmail.com>
=0A>>>To: kis-list@matronics.com =0A>>>Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 8
:27 AM=0A>>>Subject: KIS-List: Re: Trial Fit of 4 into 1 Exhaust=0A>>>=0A>>
>=0A>>>--> KIS-List message posted =0A by: "mark_trickel" <marktrickel@g
mail.com>=0A>>>=0A>>>Wow, =0A that sure does look pretty. One more step
to completion checked off the =0A list. Here=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s a
little inspiration I found last =0A week:=0A>>>=0A>>>http://eaa104.org/d
ocuments/NL0913.pdf=0A>>>=0A>>>Check page 6 of =0A this chapter newslett
er. I had this one as flying but it is not. Apparently =0A in the eyes o
f some States if it is registered at the FAA it is flyable, and =0A they
are entitled to sales tax, and yearly registration fees (unlike the =0A
project car I have). In the paper work for my airplane is a stack of yearl
y =0A Minnesota registration receipts. In 18 years the thing never left
the =0A hanger. Looks like Ed Hanson will be flying by years end.=0A>>>
=0A>>>Mark =0A T.=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>Read this topic online
=0A here:=0A>>>=0A>>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=40872
7#408727 =0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>href="http://www.matronics.c
om/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List href="
http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com/ href="http://w
ww.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c =0A>>http://www.m
atronics.com/================= =0A>>=0A>>
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ics.com/Navigator?KIS-List href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://for
ums.matronics.com/ href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://ww
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Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Closing the fuselage |
=0A=0ABob,=0A=0ATalking about closing the fuselage, you can save yourself a
lot of troubles attaching ~3/4" thin wall plastic ( thin wall -PVC) cond
uit along the fuselage before closing.=0AThe conduit should start somewhere
within your reach behind the rear seat and end -go to -the end of the
fuselage, preferably within your reach through the rear -opening.=0AA sid
e of the fuselage seems to be better than the bottom. This way it would not
interfere with the elevator controls.=0A=0AHaving the conduit attached you
can close the fuselage.=0AIt is easy to pull a number of necessary wires t
hrough the conduit, and you would not have to worry how to attach -wires
in hard to reach places.=0A=0AJerzy
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Horizontal Tail Span |
Galin,
So probably there was a combination of both loss of elevator authority and the
gear being to far aft.
What was your typical w&cg?
You said that the vortex generator improved your elevator authority. Did you increased
your elevator chord too?
Fabricio
--------
Fabricio Pereira
Engineer / Pilot
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409153#409153
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| Subject: | Re: Horizontal Tail Span |
Fabricio: I did not change the elevator in any way except add the VG's. The
landing gear was moved in 2009 by Rich Trickel while we were in El Salvador
so I know it was done right. This did not change the authority issue so
that is when I added the VGs. Rich helped me install them and flew the
airplane with me to see how they changed the handling. Even he said they
did make a difference in the landing flare.
I take off often at max gross weight and try to keep the CG more towards
the rear when possible. At landing I am normally close to the center of the
CG envelope or maybe slightly forward, but not by much.
I hope this helps.
Galin
On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 6:22 PM, fasilpereira <fasilpereira@hotmail.com>wrote:
>
> Galin,
>
> So probably there was a combination of both loss of elevator authority and
> the gear being to far aft.
> What was your typical w&cg?
> You said that the vortex generator improved your elevator authority. Did
> you increased your elevator chord too?
>
> Fabricio
>
> --------
> Fabricio Pereira
> Engineer / Pilot
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409153#409153
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Horizontal Tail Span |
Hello Galin,
How many degrees of up elevator do you have? The way it is in the builder's manual
you can not achieve the design up elevator (+25) before the push tube contacts
the bottom of the horizontal internal in the tail.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Galin Hernandez
Sent: Sep 24, 2013 6:45 PM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: Horizontal Tail Span
Fabricio: I did not change the elevator in any way except add the VG's. The landing
gear was moved in 2009 by Rich Trickel while we were in El Salvador so I
know it was done right. This did not change the authority issue so that is when
I added the VGs. Rich helped me install them and flew the airplane with me to
see how they changed the handling. Even he said they did make a difference in
the landing flare.
I take off often at max gross weight and try to keep the CG more towards the rear
when possible. At landing I am normally close to the center of the CG envelope
or maybe slightly forward, but not by much.
I hope this helps. Galin
On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 6:22 PM, fasilpereira <fasilpereira@hotmail.com> wrote:
Galin,
So probably there was a combination of both loss of elevator authority and the
gear being to far aft.
What was your typical w&cg?
You said that the vortex generator improved your elevator authority. Did you increased
your elevator chord too?
Fabricio
--------
Fabricio Pereira
Engineer / Pilot
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409153#409153
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