Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:38 AM - Re: Re: Horizontal Tail Span (Galin Hernandez)
2. 09:18 AM - Re: Re: Horizontal Tail Span (Mark Kettering)
3. 12:28 PM - Re: Horizontal Tail Span (fasilpereira)
4. 01:25 PM - Plexiglass protection removal (fasilpereira)
5. 02:03 PM - Re: Plexiglass protection removal (Scott Stearns)
6. 02:37 PM - Re: Re: Horizontal Tail Span (Scott Stearns)
7. 06:25 PM - Re: Re: Horizontal Tail Span (Mark Kettering)
8. 08:42 PM - Re: Re: Horizontal Tail Span (Galin Hernandez)
9. 08:52 PM - Re: Re: Horizontal Tail Span (Galin Hernandez)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Horizontal Tail Span |
I will have to check.
On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 9:15 PM, Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net>wrote:
>
> Hello Galin,
>
> How many degrees of up elevator do you have? The way it is in the
> builder's manual you can not achieve the design up elevator (+25) before
> the push tube contacts the bottom of the horizontal internal in the tail.
>
> Mark
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Galin Hernandez
>
> Sent: Sep 24, 2013 6:45 PM
>
> To: "kis-list@matronics.com"
>
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: Horizontal Tail Span
>
>
> Fabricio: I did not change the elevator in any way except add the VG's.
> The landing gear was moved in 2009 by Rich Trickel while we were in El
> Salvador so I know it was done right. This did not change the authority
> issue so that is when I added the VGs. Rich helped me install them and flew
> the airplane with me to see how they changed the handling. Even he said
> they did make a difference in the landing flare.
>
> I take off often at max gross weight and try to keep the CG more towards
> the rear when possible. At landing I am normally close to the center of the
> CG envelope or maybe slightly forward, but not by much.
>
> I hope this helps. Galin
>
> On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 6:22 PM, fasilpereira <fasilpereira@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Galin,
>
>
> So probably there was a combination of both loss of elevator authority and
> the gear being to far aft.
>
> What was your typical w&cg?
>
> You said that the vortex generator improved your elevator authority. Did
> you increased your elevator chord too?
>
>
> Fabricio
>
>
> --------
>
> Fabricio Pereira
>
> Engineer / Pilot
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409153#409153
>
>
> ==========
>
> rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
>
> ==========
>
> http://forums.matronics.com
>
> ==========
>
> le, List Admin.
>
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>
> ==========
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Horizontal Tail Span |
I agree that it is important to know and notice the difference if the aircraft
runs out of elevator authority right before or after the main gear touch down.
I do know and it is very hard to miss the difference on a stock to the plans
TR-1 and TR-4. Yes some planes do have reduced elevator authority in ground
effect but most of the time this is so small in planes of this type that it is
not normally noticeable. Some even have increased elevator authority. The studies
I have read measured aircraft delta Cm's of about 0.02 due to ground effect.
Or about 1.3% to 1.5% of the Cm. This is so small as to be in the noise
in most cases and generally not even bothered with in light aircraft tail sizing
calculations. That being said, every aircraft is different and this could
still be an issue.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
>From: fasilpereira <fasilpereira@hotmail.com>
>Sent: Sep 24, 2013 3:56 PM
>To: kis-list@matronics.com
>Subject: KIS-List: Re: Horizontal Tail Span
>
>
>Mark (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)
>
>If the aircraft runs out of elevator authority after toutchdown, the best solution
would be moving the main gear forward as you suggest or maybe canting the
gear forward as Mark Trickel said.
>One important thing to remember is that having enough elevator authority at altitude
does not means that there is enough elevator during landing flare, sice
the ground effect reduces the elevator authority.
>That's why it important to know (although difficult to notice the difference)
if the aircraft runs out of elevator authority right before or after the main
gear toutchdown.
>
>Mark Trickel,
>
>I've noticed that there are some not accurate specs on the published documentation
and that's why it is nice to have guys like you on the list.
>Speaking about the wing airfoil, I've noticed that the wing airfoil on the sales
brochure is the Naca 65-415. I have a Contact! paper about the cruiser, signed
by Rich, with Naca 63(2)-215. Do you know what is the correct one?
>
>Best,
>
>Fabricio
>
>--------
>Fabricio Pereira
>Engineer / Pilot
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409145#409145
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Horizontal Tail Span |
Mark,
I am thinking on doing some simulations to have an idea of the elevator authority
during flare, with and without ground effect.
Do you know what are the airfoils of the KIS Cruiser wing and tail? Do you have
a scale drawing of the aircraft top and side views?
Fabricio
--------
Fabricio Pereira
Engineer / Pilot
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409212#409212
Message 4
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| Subject: | Plexiglass protection removal |
Most of my plexiglass are still with the paper protection layer.
What is the best method to remove this layer from the glass?
Fabricio
--------
Fabricio Pereira
Engineer / Pilot
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409218#409218
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Plexiglass protection removal |
It was intended to peel off pretty easily.- If it doesn't I would-pell
off as much as possible then use-a plastic polish.=0A-=0AScott=0A =0A
=0A________________________________=0A From: fasilpereira <fasilpereira@hot
mail.com>=0ATo: kis-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Wednesday, September 25, 20
13 1:25 PM=0ASubject: KIS-List: Plexiglass protection removal=0A =0A=0A-->
KIS-List message posted by: "fasilpereira" <fasilpereira@hotmail.com>=0A
=0AMost of my plexiglass are still with the paper protection layer.=0AWhat
is the best method to remove this layer from the glass?=0A=0AFabricio=0A=0A
--------=0AFabricio Pereira=0AEngineer / Pilot=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topi
c online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409218#40
=========================0A
======================
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Horizontal Tail Span |
I think the airfoil was most likely intended to be a NACA 65-415.- The ri
bs and skins I have-are not very close to that airfoil though.- The TR-
1 airfoil is the 62-215 airfoil that is sometimes shown as the TR-4 airfoil
.--Another issue is that the wing airfoil is modified by the triangle s
ection flaps and ailerons which are much different than the airfoil and pro
bably effect Cm significantly.--=0A-=0AThe basic issue seems to be th
at the main-wheel are too far aft.- The best solution in my mind is to
-just build it as a taildragger.- Lighter, lower drag, more simple, eas
y to add tailwheel steering in addition to differential braking,-much mor
e rear seat foot-room, more firewall space,-more fun to fly, but a litt
le more work to build.- The airplane might be more difficult to sell, but
concidering early SR22s are approaching $100K, our airplanes are basically
going to sell for the value of the panel/engine/prop in a few years.=0A-
=0AScott-=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A From: fasilpereira
<fasilpereira@hotmail.com>=0ATo: kis-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Wednesday
, September 25, 2013 12:28 PM=0ASubject: KIS-List: Re: Horizontal Tail Span
mail.com>=0A=0AMark,=0A=0AI am thinking on doing some simulations to have a
n idea of the elevator authority during flare, with and without ground effe
ct.=0ADo you know what are the airfoils of the KIS Cruiser wing and tail? D
o you have a scale drawing of the aircraft top and side views?=0A=0AFabrici
o=0A=0A--------=0AFabricio Pereira=0AEngineer / Pilot=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead th
is topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=40
========================
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Horizontal Tail Span |
Hi Scott,
I am not sure what the TR-4 airfoil really is but both from memory of talking with
Rich and Vance and every one of my documents from when I was working there
in 1999 it is a 63(2)-215. Maybe someone could plot out a template and compare
it to the actual wing?
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Stearns
Sent: Sep 25, 2013 5:34 PM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: Horizontal Tail Span
I think the airfoil was most likely intended to be a NACA 65-415. The ribs and
skins I have are not very close to that airfoil though. The TR-1 airfoil is
the 62-215 airfoil that is sometimes shown as the TR-4 airfoil. Another issue
is that the wing airfoil is modified by the triangle section flaps and ailerons
which are much different than the airfoil and probably effect Cm significantly.
The basic issue seems to be that the main wheel are too far aft. The best
solution in my mind is to just build it as a taildragger. Lighter, lower
drag, more simple, easy to add tailwheel steering in addition to differential
braking, much more rear seat foot room, more firewall space, more fun to fly,
but
a little more work to build. The airplane might be more difficult to sell, but
concidering early SR22s are approaching $100K, our airplanes are basically going
to sell for the value of the panel/engine/prop in a few years. Scott
From: fasilpereira <fasilpereira@hotmail.com>
To: kis-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 12:28 PM
Subject: KIS-List: Re: Horizontal Tail Span
Mark,
I am thinking on doing some simulations to have an idea of the elevator authority
during flare, with and without ground effect.
Do you know what are the airfoils of the KIS Cruiser wing and tail? Do you have
a scale drawing of the aircraft top and side views?
Fabricio
--------
Fabricio Pereira
Engineer / Pilot
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409212#409=======================
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List<; <a target="_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com/" = ="" -->=""
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Horizontal Tail Span |
When I was creating my airplane manual in El Salvador, whenever I finished
a section Rich would edit the section and make corrections as needed. I
specifically remember when he told me the NACA 65-415 (that was stated in
the sales brochure and I had in the manual at the time) was wrong. He told
me it was a NACA 63(2)-215 and wrote it down as a pen and ink change to
that section. So as per Rich himself, this is what I have in my current
aircraft manual.
When I get a chance I will look in my old paperwork to see if I can find
the manual with his pen and ink change in it. I may still have it buried
somewhere in my storage unit.
On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 9:24 PM, Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net>wrote:
>
> Hi Scott,
>
> I am not sure what the TR-4 airfoil really is but both from memory of
> talking with Rich and Vance and every one of my documents from when I was
> working there in 1999 it is a 63(2)-215. Maybe someone could plot out a
> template and compare it to the actual wing?
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Scott Stearns
>
> Sent: Sep 25, 2013 5:34 PM
>
> To: "kis-list@matronics.com"
>
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: Horizontal Tail Span
>
>
> I think the airfoil was most likely intended to be a NACA 65-415. The
> ribs and skins I have are not very close to that airfoil though. The TR-1
> airfoil is the 62-215 airfoil that is sometimes shown as the TR-4 airfoil.
> Another issue is that the wing airfoil is modified by the triangle section
> flaps and ailerons which are much different than the airfoil and probably
> effect Cm significantly. The basic issue seems to be that the main wheel
> are too far aft. The best solution in my mind is to just build it as a
> taildragger. Lighter, lower drag, more simple, easy to add tailwheel
> steering in addition to differential braking, much more rear seat foot
> room, more firewall space, more fun to fly, but
> a little more work to build. The airplane might be more difficult to
> sell, but concidering early SR22s are approaching $100K, our airplanes are
> basically going to sell for the value of the panel/engine/prop in a few
> years. Scott
> From: fasilpereira <fasilpereira@hotmail.com>
> To: kis-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 12:28 PM
> Subject: KIS-List: Re: Horizontal Tail Span
>
>
> Mark,
>
> I am thinking on doing some simulations to have an idea of the elevator
> authority during flare, with and without ground effect.
> Do you know what are the airfoils of the KIS Cruiser wing and tail? Do you
> have a scale drawing of the aircraft top and side views?
>
> Fabricio
>
> --------
> Fabricio Pereira
> Engineer / Pilot
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409212#409=======================
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List<; <a target="_blank" href="
> http://forums.matronics.com/" = ="" -->=""
>
>
> <a target="_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com/" = ="" -->="" <a
> target="_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com/" = ="" -->="" <a
> target="_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com/" = ="" -->="" <a
> target="_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com/" = ="" -->=""
> <a target="_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com/" = ="" -->=""
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Horizontal Tail Span |
Mark;
I haven't been able to measure up elevator degrees (I am traveling) but I
do remember that this was another section of my manual that Rich changed
from what was in the brochure (+25 / -16) to +22 / -17. So this is more
than likely what I have.
Rich made a LOT of corrections to my manual as I was developing it.
On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 9:15 PM, Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net>wrote:
>
> Hello Galin,
>
> How many degrees of up elevator do you have? The way it is in the
> builder's manual you can not achieve the design up elevator (+25) before
> the push tube contacts the bottom of the horizontal internal in the tail.
>
> Mark
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Galin Hernandez
>
> Sent: Sep 24, 2013 6:45 PM
>
> To: "kis-list@matronics.com"
>
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: Horizontal Tail Span
>
>
> Fabricio: I did not change the elevator in any way except add the VG's.
> The landing gear was moved in 2009 by Rich Trickel while we were in El
> Salvador so I know it was done right. This did not change the authority
> issue so that is when I added the VGs. Rich helped me install them and flew
> the airplane with me to see how they changed the handling. Even he said
> they did make a difference in the landing flare.
>
> I take off often at max gross weight and try to keep the CG more towards
> the rear when possible. At landing I am normally close to the center of the
> CG envelope or maybe slightly forward, but not by much.
>
> I hope this helps. Galin
>
> On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 6:22 PM, fasilpereira <fasilpereira@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Galin,
>
>
> So probably there was a combination of both loss of elevator authority and
> the gear being to far aft.
>
> What was your typical w&cg?
>
> You said that the vortex generator improved your elevator authority. Did
> you increased your elevator chord too?
>
>
> Fabricio
>
>
> --------
>
> Fabricio Pereira
>
> Engineer / Pilot
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409153#409153
>
>
> ==========
>
> rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
>
> ==========
>
> http://forums.matronics.com
>
> ==========
>
> le, List Admin.
>
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> ==========
>
>
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