Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:38 AM - Re: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4 (Mark Kettering)
2. 09:12 AM - Re: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4 (Robert Reed)
3. 09:25 AM - Re: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4 (Alfred Rosa)
4. 10:43 AM - Re: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4 (Robert Reed)
5. 12:28 PM - Re: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4 (Scott Stearns)
6. 02:38 PM - Re: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4 (Alfred Rosa)
7. 05:05 PM - Re: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4 (Tim Yoder)
8. 06:59 PM - Re: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4 (Scott Stearns)
9. 07:10 PM - Re: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4 (Robert Reed)
10. 11:01 PM - Official KIS-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
11. 11:05 PM - Official KIS-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4 |
Hi Mike,
You may want to consider sound in your interior finishing choice and methods.
The more you cover with thick carpet and padded cloth the more it will reduce
the sound. Even thin carpet can help. Glued with thick mastic is better for
sound. They make a thin short fuzz "carpet" that was popular for boat interiors
and can really help with sound. Leather is also not a bad choice since it is
fairly fire resistant. Fully carpeted should give about 2dB to 4dB reduction
compared to normal paint.
If you are going the paint route they make many different types of sound absorbing
paint. These paints reduce both reflection and transmission. A good thick
cover of sound reduction paint should give about 1dB to 2dB reduction compared
to normal paint.
This may not sound like a lot of reduction when we are starting with about 110
to 115 dB and are using noise canceling headsets but keep in mind a 3dB reduction
is reducing the energy of the noise by half! The ear hears sound "in dB" but
in terms of hearing destruction it is the energy. Any sound over about 85dB
can cause hearing loss over time. Each time you double the energy you just about
double the hearing loss rate. So even with ANR headsets that claim about
30dB total you are near the limit for hearing loss. Reduce the sealing of the
headsets with sunglasses and you are over the limit. That added 3dB can make
a difference even if you hardly notice it.
My Tr-1 is about 112 dB in cruise with padded cloth up to the door and zolatone
above.
Mark K.
-----Original Message-----
>From: Mike Pienaar <mjpienaar@shaw.ca>
>Sent: Sep 30, 2013 9:42 PM
>To: kis-list@matronics.com
>Subject: KIS-List: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4
>
>
>Hi,
>
>Could I please get some ideas on how to finish the inside of the fuselage.
>
>I am thinking of painting the "roof" inside and carpeting only the areas
>where your feet are.
>
>In the baggage compartment I want to put carpet, should I reinforce the
>baggage compartment floor and do I need something to keep the baggage from
>flying about.
>
>Has anybody had experience with Zolatone paint
>
>One of my main concerns is finishing off around the footwells, the front of
>the seat bulkheads and areas that are not covered by upholstery
>
>Thanks
>
>Mike
>
>
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4 |
Mark,=0A-=0AI hesitated to comment on this thread given that I am not fin
ished and flying yet but I totally agree with you on all points.- If you
are building a KIS Cruiser then you are probably planning on some extensive
cross country flying and not just the local $100 hamburger runs.- It did
n't take but a couple of trips to realize that the louder the plane the mor
e exhausting the trip.- In my case, I have the added issue of my wife get
ting migraines and wearing the headset seems to make matters worse for her.
- For those reasons, I will be trying to put in as much sound absorption
-materials as I can without incurring substantial weight issues.=0A-=0A
The plan which I have already partially completed is to use a layer of foam
covered by cloth for all areas that can be upholstered.- This includes t
he overhead back to the baggage bulkhead.- The baggage bulkhead top and b
ottom will also be covered as will the sides.- The floor will be covered
with foam and carpet.- I will use some paint but only in areas that are n
ot easily covered.- The foam I am using is-1/8" and 1/4" fire rated bla
ck foam that I got from McMasterCarr.- I did the fire test and it-does
not burn.- The 1/4" will be used where possible but the 1/8" works well o
n Overhead.- The foam will be bonded to the inside of the fuselage and in
most places, the cloth will be bonded to the foam.--=0A-=0ABob Reed
--=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Mark Kettering <m
antafs@earthlink.net>=0ATo: kis-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Tuesday, Octobe
r 1, 2013 10:38 AM=0ASubject: Re: KIS-List: Finishing the inside of the fus
ntafs@earthlink.net>=0A=0AHi Mike,=0A=0AYou may want to consider sound in y
our interior finishing choice and methods.- The more you cover with thick
carpet and padded cloth the more it will reduce the sound.- Even thin ca
rpet can help.- Glued with thick mastic is better for sound. They make a
thin short fuzz "carpet" that was popular for boat interiors and can really
help with sound.- Leather is also not a bad choice since it is fairly fi
re resistant.- Fully carpeted should give about 2dB to 4dB reduction comp
ared to normal paint.=0A=0AIf you are going the paint route they make many
different types of sound absorbing paint.- These paints reduce both refle
ction and transmission.- A good thick cover of sound reduction paint shou
ld give about 1dB to 2dB reduction compared to normal paint.=0A=0AThis may
not sound like a lot of reduction when we are starting with about 110 to 11
5 dB and are using noise canceling headsets but keep in mind a 3dB reductio
n is reducing the energy of the noise by half! The ear hears sound "in dB"
but in terms of hearing destruction it is the energy. Any sound over about
85dB can cause hearing loss over time. Each time you double the energy you
just about double the hearing loss rate.- So even with ANR headsets that
claim about 30dB total you are near the limit for hearing loss.- Reduce t
he sealing of the headsets with sunglasses and you are over the limit.- T
hat added 3dB can make a difference even if you hardly notice it.=0A=0AMy T
r-1 is about 112 dB in cruise with padded cloth up to the door and zolatone
above.=0A=0AMark K.=0A=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0A>From: Mike Piena
ar <mjpienaar@shaw.ca>=0A>Sent: Sep 30, 2013 9:42 PM=0A>To: kis-list@matron
ics.com=0A>Subject: KIS-List: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4
=0A>=0A>Hi,=0A>=0A>Could I please get some ideas on how to finish the insid
e of the fuselage.=0A>=0A>I am thinking of painting the "roof" inside and c
arpeting only the areas =0A>where your feet are.=0A>=0A>In the baggage comp
artment I want to put carpet, should I reinforce the =0A>baggage compartmen
t floor and do I need something to keep the baggage from =0A>flying about.
=0A>=0A>Has anybody had experience with Zolatone paint=0A>=0A>One of my mai
n concerns is finishing off around the footwells, the front of =0A>the seat
bulkheads and areas that are not covered by upholstery=0A>=0A>Thanks=0A>
=========================0A
=
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4 |
You may also consider adding sound damping material to the inside of the cow
ling.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Oct 1, 2013, at 12:12 PM, Robert Reed <robertr237@att.net> wrote:
>
> Mark,
>
> I hesitated to comment on this thread given that I am not finished and fly
ing yet but I totally agree with you on all points. If you are building a K
IS Cruiser then you are probably planning on some extensive cross country fl
ying and not just the local $100 hamburger runs. It didn't take but a coupl
e of trips to realize that the louder the plane the more exhausting the trip
. In my case, I have the added issue of my wife getting migraines and weari
ng the headset seems to make matters worse for her. For those reasons, I wi
ll be trying to put in as much sound absorption materials as I can without i
ncurring substantial weight issues.
>
> The plan which I have already partially completed is to use a layer of foa
m covered by cloth for all areas that can be upholstered. This includes the
overhead back to the baggage bulkhead. The baggage bulkhead top and bottom
will also be covered as will the sides. The floor will be covered with foa
m and carpet. I will use some paint but only in areas that are not easily c
overed. The foam I am using is 1/8" and 1/4" fire rated black foam that I g
ot from McMasterCarr. I did the fire test and it does not burn. The 1/4" w
ill be used where possible but the 1/8" works well on Overhead. The foam wi
ll be bonded to the inside of the fuselage and in most places, the cloth wil
l be bonded to the foam.
>
> Bob Reed
>
> From: Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net>
> To: kis-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 10:38 AM
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4
>
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> You may want to consider sound in your interior finishing choice and metho
ds. The more you cover with thick carpet and padded cloth the more it will r
educe the sound. Even thin carpet can help. Glued with thick mastic is bet
ter for sound. They make a thin short fuzz "carpet" that was popular for boa
t interiors and can really help with sound. Leather is also not a bad choic
e since it is fairly fire resistant. Fully carpeted should give about 2dB t
o 4dB reduction compared to normal paint.
>
> If you are going the paint route they make many different types of sound a
bsorbing paint. These paints reduce both reflection and transmission. A go
od thick cover of sound reduction paint should give about 1dB to 2dB reducti
on compared to normal paint.
>
> This may not sound like a lot of reduction when we are starting with about
110 to 115 dB and are using noise canceling headsets but keep in mind a 3dB
reduction is reducing the energy of the noise by half! The ear hears sound "
in dB" but in terms of hearing destruction it is the energy. Any sound over a
bout 85dB can cause hearing loss over time. Each time you double the energy y
ou just about double the hearing loss rate. So even with ANR headsets that c
laim about 30dB total you are near the limit for hearing loss. Reduce the s
ealing of the headsets with sunglasses and you are over the limit. That add
ed 3dB can make a difference even if you hardly notice it.
>
> My Tr-1 is about 112 dB in cruise with padded cloth up to the door and zol
atone above.
>
> Mark K.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Mike Pienaar <mjpienaar@shaw.ca>
> >Sent: Sep 30, 2013 9:42 PM
> >To: kis-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: KIS-List: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4
> >
> >
> >Hi,
> >
> >Could I please get some ideas on how to finish the inside of the fuselage
.
> >
> >I am thinking of painting the "roof" inside and carpeting only the areas
> >where your feet are.
> >
> >In the baggage compartment I want to put carpet, should I reinforce the
> >baggage compartment floor and do I need something to keep the baggage fro
m
> >flying about.
> >
> >Has anybody had experience with Zolatone paint
> >
> >One of my main concerns is finishing off around the footwells, the front o
f
> >the seat bulkheads and areas that are not covered by upholstery
> >
> >Thanks
> >
> >Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> < ==================
=====
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
Message 4
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|
Subject: | Re: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4 |
Al,=0A-=0AHadn't thought of that but I will look into it.- I have also
considered the possibility of adding a muffler as is required in Europe.-
There is no reason whey these planes have to be so loud.=0A-=0ABOB=0A
=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Alfred Rosa <fredorosa@gmai
l.com>=0ATo: "kis-list@matronics.com" <kis-list@matronics.com> =0ASent: Tue
sday, October 1, 2013 11:25 AM=0ASubject: Re: KIS-List: Finishing the insid
e of the fuselage of a TR4=0A =0A=0A=0AYou may also consider adding sound
damping material to the inside of the cowling.-=0A=0ASent from my iPhone
=0A=0AOn Oct 1, 2013, at 12:12 PM, Robert Reed <robertr237@att.net> wrote:
=0A=0A=0AMark,=0A>-=0A>I hesitated to comment on this thread given that I
am not finished and flying yet but I totally agree with you on all points.
- If you are building a KIS Cruiser then you are probably planning on som
e extensive cross country flying and not just the local $100 hamburger runs
.- It didn't take but a couple of trips to realize that the louder the pl
ane the more exhausting the trip.- In my case, I have the added issue of
my wife getting migraines and wearing the headset seems to make matters wor
se for her.- For those reasons, I will be trying to put in as much sound
absorption-materials as I can without incurring substantial weight issues
.=0A>-=0A>The plan which I have already partially completed is to use a l
ayer of foam covered by cloth for all areas that can be upholstered.- Thi
s includes the overhead back to the baggage bulkhead.- The baggage bulkhe
ad top and bottom will also be covered as will the sides.- The floor will
be covered with foam and carpet.- I will use some paint but only in area
s that are not easily covered.- The foam I am using is-1/8" and 1/4" fi
re rated black foam that I got from McMasterCarr.- I did the fire test an
d it-does not burn.- The 1/4" will be used where possible but the 1/8"
works well on Overhead.- The foam will be bonded to the inside of the fus
elage and in most places, the cloth will be bonded to the foam.--=0A>
-=0A>Bob Reed--=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>________________________________=0A>
From: Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net>=0A>To: kis-list@matronics.com
=0A>Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 10:38 AM=0A>Subject: Re: KIS-List: Finis
hing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4=0A> =0A>=0A>--> KIS-List message
posted by: Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net>=0A>=0A>Hi Mike,=0A>=0A>Yo
u may want to consider sound in your interior finishing choice and methods.
- The more you cover with thick carpet and padded cloth the more it will
reduce the sound.- Even thin carpet can help.- Glued with thick mastic
is better for sound. They make a thin short fuzz "carpet" that was popular
for boat interiors and can really help with sound.- Leather is also not a
bad choice since it is fairly fire resistant.- Fully carpeted should giv
e about 2dB to 4dB reduction compared to normal paint.=0A>=0A>If you are go
ing the paint route they make many different types of sound absorbing paint
.- These paints reduce both reflection and transmission.- A good thick
cover of sound reduction paint should give about 1dB to 2dB reduction compa
red to=0A normal paint.=0A>=0A>This may not sound like a lot of reduction w
hen we are starting with about 110 to 115 dB and are using noise canceling
headsets but keep in mind a 3dB reduction is reducing the energy of the noi
se by half! The ear hears sound "in dB" but in terms of hearing destruction
it is the energy. Any sound over about 85dB can cause hearing loss over ti
me. Each time you double the energy you just about double the hearing loss
rate.- So even with ANR headsets that claim about 30dB total you are near
the limit for hearing loss.- Reduce the sealing of the headsets with sun
glasses and you are over the limit.- That added 3dB can make a difference
even if you hardly notice it.=0A>=0A>My Tr-1 is about 112 dB in cruise wit
h padded cloth up to the door and zolatone above.=0A>=0A>Mark K.=0A>=0A>=0A
>-----Original Message-----=0A>>From: Mike Pienaar <mjpienaar@shaw.ca>=0A>>
Sent: Sep 30, 2013 9:42 PM=0A>>To: kis-list@matronics.com=0A>>Subject: KIS-
List: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4=0A>>=0A>>--> KIS-List m
essage posted by: "Mike Pienaar" <mjpienaar@shaw.ca>=0A>>=0A>>Hi,=0A>>=0A>>
Could I please get some ideas on how to finish the inside of the fuselage.
=0A>>=0A>>I am thinking of painting the "roof" inside and carpeting only th
e areas =0A>>where your feet are.=0A>>=0A>>In the baggage compartment I wan
t to put carpet, should I reinforce the =0A>>baggage compartment floor and
do I need something to keep the baggage from =0A>>flying about.=0A>>=0A>>Ha
s anybody had experience with Zolatone paint=0A>>=0A>>One of my main=0A con
cerns is finishing off around the footwells, the front of =0A>>the seat bul
kheads and areas that are not covered by upholstery=0A>>=0A>>Thanks=0A>>=0A
>>Mike =0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>=0A><- - - - - - - -
- - -=====================
====0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> =0A>D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0Aist"">http://www.matronics.com
/Navigator?KIS-List=0AD=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A//forums.matronics.com=0AD=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0Aot;">http://www.m
atronics.com/contribution=0AD=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=========================0A
=======================
Message 5
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|
Subject: | Re: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4 |
I used the spray on sound insulation from mcmaster carr on the rear wheel we
ll area of my corvette with a noticable reduction in road noise. I sprayed
a thick coat on the back of the firewall on my TR-1. I did not notice an i
mprovement there but It is hard to tell when it is so noisy already. I shou
ld have gotten a Db measuring devise for a before and after check.
The spray on sound insulation for the unseen areas probably has a place in t
he overall sound insulation plan. I plan to put it on both sides of the fir
ewall on the TR-4 project.
Still, in my experimce airplanes are just loud. A friend has a really nice
lancair ES with lots of expensive sound insulation and a really nice interi
or, but it is still quite loud inside. We wear earplugs under noise cancell
ing headsets in my TR-1 and I have to do the same thing in my friends super i
nsulated Lancair. It is worth doing some simple, quick, low cost sound insu
lation I think, but also expect the airplane to still be pretty loud.
One of the best things for long range fatigue and headaches is an oxygen sys
tem. A basic medical oxygen system filled using welding oxygen is pretty ch
eap. And they make cool little devices that clip to the end of your finge
r to show blood oxygen levels.
Migrane headaches are frequently caused by diet.
If you are interested...
http://www.drmcdougall.com/health/education/health-science/stars/stars-writt
en/beth-burns/
Scott
On Oct 1, 2013, at 9:12 AM, Robert Reed <robertr237@att.net> wrote:
> Mark,
>
> I hesitated to comment on this thread given that I am not finished and fly
ing yet but I totally agree with you on all points. If you are building a K
IS Cruiser then you are probably planning on some extensive cross country fl
ying and not just the local $100 hamburger runs. It didn't take but a coupl
e of trips to realize that the louder the plane the more exhausting the trip
. In my case, I have the added issue of my wife getting migraines and weari
ng the headset seems to make matters worse for her. For those reasons, I wi
ll be trying to put in as much sound absorption materials as I can without i
ncurring substantial weight issues.
>
> The plan which I have already partially completed is to use a layer of foa
m covered by cloth for all areas that can be upholstered. This includes the
overhead back to the baggage bulkhead. The baggage bulkhead top and bottom
will also be covered as will the sides. The floor will be covered with foa
m and carpet. I will use some paint but only in areas that are not easily c
overed. The foam I am using is 1/8" and 1/4" fire rated black foam that I g
ot from McMasterCarr. I did the fire test and it does not burn. The 1/4" w
ill be used where possible but the 1/8" works well on Overhead. The foam wi
ll be bonded to the inside of the fuselage and in most places, the cloth wil
l be bonded to the foam.
>
> Bob Reed
>
> From: Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net>
> To: kis-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 10:38 AM
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4
>
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> You may want to consider sound in your interior finishing choice and metho
ds. The more you cover with thick carpet and padded cloth the more it will r
educe the sound. Even thin carpet can help. Glued with thick mastic is bet
ter for sound. They make a thin short fuzz "carpet" that was popular for boa
t interiors and can really help with sound. Leather is also not a bad choic
e since it is fairly fire resistant. Fully carpeted should give about 2dB t
o 4dB reduction compared to normal paint.
>
> If you are going the paint route they make many different types of sound a
bsorbing paint. These paints reduce both reflection and transmission. A go
od thick cover of sound reduction paint should give about 1dB to 2dB reducti
on compared to normal paint.
>
> This may not sound like a lot of reduction when we are starting with about
110 to 115 dB and are using noise canceling headsets but keep in mind a 3dB
reduction is reducing the energy of the noise by half! The ear hears sound "
in dB" but in terms of hearing destruction it is the energy. Any sound over a
bout 85dB can cause hearing loss over time. Each time you double the energy y
ou just about double the hearing loss rate. So even with ANR headsets that c
laim about 30dB total you are near the limit for hearing loss. Reduce the s
ealing of the headsets with sunglasses and you are over the limit. That add
ed 3dB can make a difference even if you hardly notice it.
>
> My Tr-1 is about 112 dB in cruise with padded cloth up to the door and zol
atone above.
>
> Mark K.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Mike Pienaar <mjpienaar@shaw.ca>
> >Sent: Sep 30, 2013 9:42 PM
> >To: kis-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: KIS-List: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4
> >
> >
> >Hi,
> >
> >Could I please get some ideas on how to finish the inside of the fuselage
.
> >
> >I am thinking of painting the "roof" inside and carpeting only the areas
> >where your feet are.
> >
> >In the baggage compartment I want to put carpet, should I reinforce the
> >baggage compartment floor and do I need something to keep the baggage fro
m
> >flying about.
> >
> >Has anybody had experience with Zolatone paint
> >
> >One of my main concerns is finishing off around the footwells, the front o
f
> >the seat bulkheads and areas that are not covered by upholstery
> >
> >Thanks
> >
> >Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> < ==================
=====
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 6
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|
Subject: | Re: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4 |
The 2 loudest sources of airplane noise are the prop and the exhaust pipe. T
here is an muffler and pipe combination that extends underneath the fuselage
to exit the gases beneath the baggage compartment. It's used in Europe a l
ot.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Oct 1, 2013, at 3:28 PM, Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I used the spray on sound insulation from mcmaster carr on the rear wheel w
ell area of my corvette with a noticable reduction in road noise. I spraye
d a thick coat on the back of the firewall on my TR-1. I did not notice an i
mprovement there but It is hard to tell when it is so noisy already. I shou
ld have gotten a Db measuring devise for a before and after check.
>
> The spray on sound insulation for the unseen areas probably has a place in
the overall sound insulation plan. I plan to put it on both sides of the f
irewall on the TR-4 project.
>
> Still, in my experimce airplanes are just loud. A friend has a really ni
ce lancair ES with lots of expensive sound insulation and a really nice inte
rior, but it is still quite loud inside. We wear earplugs under noise cance
lling headsets in my TR-1 and I have to do the same thing in my friends supe
r insulated Lancair. It is worth doing some simple, quick, low cost sound i
nsulation I think, but also expect the airplane to still be pretty loud.
>
> One of the best things for long range fatigue and headaches is an oxygen s
ystem. A basic medical oxygen system filled using welding oxygen is pretty c
heap. And they make cool little devices that clip to the end of your fing
er to show blood oxygen levels.
>
> Migrane headaches are frequently caused by diet.
>
> If you are interested...
> http://www.drmcdougall.com/health/education/health-science/stars/stars-wri
tten/beth-burns/
>
> Scott
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> On Oct 1, 2013, at 9:12 AM, Robert Reed <robertr237@att.net> wrote:
>>
>> Mark,
>>
>> I hesitated to comment on this thread given that I am not finished and fl
ying yet but I totally agree with you on all points. If you are building a K
IS Cruiser then you are probably planning on some extensive cross country fl
ying and not just the local $100 hamburger runs. It didn't take but a coupl
e of trips to realize that the louder the plane the more exhausting the trip
. In my case, I have the added issue of my wife getting migraines and weari
ng the headset seems to make matters worse for her. For those reasons, I wi
ll be trying to put in as much sound absorption materials as I can without i
ncurring substantial weight issues.
>>
>> The plan which I have already partially completed is to use a layer of f
oam covered by cloth for all areas that can be upholstered. This includes t
he overhead back to the baggage bulkhead. The baggage bulkhead top and bott
om will also be covered as will the sides. The floor will be covered with f
oam and carpet. I will use some paint but only in areas that are not easily
covered. The foam I am using is 1/8" and 1/4" fire rated black foam that I
got from McMasterCarr. I did the fire test and it does not burn. The 1/4"
will be used where possible but the 1/8" works well on Overhead. The foam w
ill be bonded to the inside of the fuselage and in most places, the cloth wi
ll be bonded to the foam.
>>
>> Bob Reed
>>
>> From: Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net>
>> To: kis-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 10:38 AM
>> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4
>>
>>
>> Hi Mike,
>>
>> You may want to consider sound in your interior finishing choice and meth
ods. The more you cover with thick carpet and padded cloth the more it will
reduce the sound. Even thin carpet can help. Glued with thick mastic is b
etter for sound. They make a thin short fuzz "carpet" that was popular for b
oat interiors and can really help with sound. Leather is also not a bad cho
ice since it is fairly fire resistant. Fully carpeted should give about 2dB
to 4dB reduction compared to normal paint.
>>
>> If you are going the paint route they make many different types of sound a
bsorbing paint. These paints reduce both reflection and transmission. A go
od thick cover of sound reduction paint should give about 1dB to 2dB reducti
on compared to normal paint.
>>
>> This may not sound like a lot of reduction when we are starting with abou
t 110 to 115 dB and are using noise canceling headsets but keep in mind a 3d
B reduction is reducing the energy of the noise by half! The ear hears sound
"in dB" but in terms of hearing destruction it is the energy. Any sound ove
r about 85dB can cause hearing loss over time. Each time you double the ener
gy you just about double the hearing loss rate. So even with ANR headsets t
hat claim about 30dB total you are near the limit for hearing loss. Reduce t
he sealing of the headsets with sunglasses and you are over the limit. That
added 3dB can make a difference even if you hardly notice it.
>>
>> My Tr-1 is about 112 dB in cruise with padded cloth up to the door and zo
latone above.
>>
>> Mark K.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> >From: Mike Pienaar <mjpienaar@shaw.ca>
>> >Sent: Sep 30, 2013 9:42 PM
>> >To: kis-list@matronics.com
>> >Subject: KIS-List: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4
>> >
>> >
>> >Hi,
>> >
>> >Could I please get some ideas on how to finish the inside of the fuselag
e.
>> >
>> >I am thinking of painting the "roof" inside and carpeting only the areas
>> >where your feet are.
>> >
>> >In the baggage compartment I want to put carpet, should I reinforce the
>> >baggage compartment floor and do I need something to keep the baggage fr
om
>> >flying about.
>> >
>> >Has anybody had experience with Zolatone paint
>> >
>> >One of my main concerns is finishing off around the footwells, the front
of
>> >the seat bulkheads and areas that are not covered by upholstery
>> >
>> >Thanks
>> >
>> >Mike
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> < =================
======
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> =========================
=========
>> //www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
>> =========================
=========
>> cs.com
>> =========================
=========
>> matronics.com/contribution
>> =========================
=========
>>
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
Message 7
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|
Subject: | Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4 |
I read a report years ago by a Piper owner who was in the music audio
business and he spent lots of time and money insulating his plane so he
could better enjoy his music. Like these reported differences, they were of
little value. I understand that a majority of the noise comes through the
wind screen. I did notice a good improvement in the old C Bonanza when I
replaced the thin 1/8" or 3/16" , I forget which, with the 3/8" speed sloped
single windscreen. It was measurably quitter and faster. One of the best
Bonanza mods. The 1/2" is even better. I had Rich get me A thicker one for
my TR-1. As I recall the stock was 1/8" and I got a 3/16", should have
gotten a 1/4" at least.
My vote, since you asked :-), is for ear plugs and noise canceling headsets.
Save time, money and go faster!
Tim
_____
From: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Stearns
Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2013 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4
I used the spray on sound insulation from mcmaster carr on the rear wheel
well area of my corvette with a noticable reduction in road noise. I
sprayed a thick coat on the back of the firewall on my TR-1. I did not
notice an improvement there but It is hard to tell when it is so noisy
already. I should have gotten a Db measuring devise for a before and after
check.
The spray on sound insulation for the unseen areas probably has a place in
the overall sound insulation plan. I plan to put it on both sides of the
firewall on the TR-4 project.
Still, in my experimce airplanes are just loud. A friend has a really nice
lancair ES with lots of expensive sound insulation and a really nice
interior, but it is still quite loud inside. We wear earplugs under noise
cancelling headsets in my TR-1 and I have to do the same thing in my friends
super insulated Lancair. It is worth doing some simple, quick, low cost
sound insulation I think, but also expect the airplane to still be pretty
loud.
One of the best things for long range fatigue and headaches is an oxygen
system. A basic medical oxygen system filled using welding oxygen is pretty
cheap. And they make cool little devices that clip to the end of your
finger to show blood oxygen levels.
Migrane headaches are frequently caused by diet.
If you are interested...
http://www.drmcdougall.com/health/education/health-science/stars/stars-writt
en/beth-burns/
Scott
On Oct 1, 2013, at 9:12 AM, Robert Reed <robertr237@att.net> wrote:
Mark,
I hesitated to comment on this thread given that I am not finished and
flying yet but I totally agree with you on all points. If you are building
a KIS Cruiser then you are probably planning on some extensive cross country
flying and not just the local $100 hamburger runs. It didn't take but a
couple of trips to realize that the louder the plane the more exhausting the
trip. In my case, I have the added issue of my wife getting migraines and
wearing the headset seems to make matters worse for her. For those reasons,
I will be trying to put in as much sound absorption materials as I can
without incurring substantial weight issues.
The plan which I have already partially completed is to use a layer of foam
covered by cloth for all areas that can be upholstered. This includes the
overhead back to the baggage bulkhead. The baggage bulkhead top and bottom
will also be covered as will the sides. The floor will be covered with foam
and carpet. I will use some paint but only in areas that are not easily
covered. The foam I am using is 1/8" and 1/4" fire rated black foam that I
got from McMasterCarr. I did the fire test and it does not burn. The 1/4"
will be used where possible but the 1/8" works well on Overhead. The foam
will be bonded to the inside of the fuselage and in most places, the cloth
will be bonded to the foam.
Bob Reed
From: Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net>
Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4
Hi Mike,
You may want to consider sound in your interior finishing choice and
methods. The more you cover with thick carpet and padded cloth the more it
will reduce the sound. Even thin carpet can help. Glued with thick mastic
is better for sound. They make a thin short fuzz "carpet" that was popular
for boat interiors and can really help with sound. Leather is also not a
bad choice since it is fairly fire resistant. Fully carpeted should give
about 2dB to 4dB reduction compared to normal paint.
If you are going the paint route they make many different types of sound
absorbing paint. These paints reduce both reflection and transmission. A
good thick cover of sound reduction paint should give about 1dB to 2dB
reduction compared to normal paint.
This may not sound like a lot of reduction when we are starting with about
110 to 115 dB and are using noise canceling headsets but keep in mind a 3dB
reduction is reducing the energy of the noise by half! The ear hears sound
"in dB" but in terms of hearing destruction it is the energy. Any sound over
about 85dB can cause hearing loss over time. Each time you double the energy
you just about double the hearing loss rate. So even with ANR headsets that
claim about 30dB total you are near the limit for hearing loss. Reduce the
sealing of the headsets with sunglasses and you are over the limit. That
added 3dB can make a difference even if you hardly notice it.
My Tr-1 is about 112 dB in cruise with padded cloth up to the door and
zolatone above.
Mark K.
-----Original Message-----
>From: Mike Pienaar <mjpienaar@shaw.ca>
>Sent: Sep 30, 2013 9:42 PM
>To: kis-list@matronics.com
>Subject: KIS-List: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4
>
>
>Hi,
>
>Could I please get some ideas on how to finish the inside of the fuselage.
>
>I am thinking of painting the "roof" inside and carpeting only the areas
>where your feet are.
>
>In the baggage compartment I want to put carpet, should I reinforce the
>baggage compartment floor and do I need something to keep the baggage from
>flying about.
>
>Has anybody had experience with Zolatone paint
>
>One of my main concerns is finishing off around the footwells, the front of
>the seat bulkheads and areas that are not covered by upholstery
>
>Thanks
>
>Mike
>
>
< =======================
==================================
//www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
==================================
cs.com
==================================
matronics.com/contribution
==================================
Message 8
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
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|
Subject: | Re: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4 |
I should add that the lancair ES I talked about also had the 3/8" wimdshield
from the lancair IV.
A 1/4 inch windshield for the TR-1 was about $500 when I asked a few years a
go. I stayed with the
1/8" I had.
Scott
On Oct 1, 2013, at 5:05 PM, "Tim Yoder" <ftyoder@yoderbuilt.com> wrote:
> I read a report years ago by a Piper owner who was in the music audio busi
ness and he spent lots of time and money insulating his plane so he could be
tter enjoy his music. Like these reported differences, they were of little v
alue. I understand that a majority of the noise comes through the wind scree
n. I did notice a good improvement in the old C Bonanza when I replaced the t
hin 1/8" or 3/16" , I forget which, with the 3/8" speed sloped single windsc
reen. It was measurably quitter and faster. One of the best Bonanza mods. Th
e 1/2" is even better. I had Rich get me A thicker one for my TR-1. As I rec
all the stock was 1/8" and I got a 3/16", should have gotten a 1/4" at least
.
>
> My vote, since you asked :-), is for ear plugs and noise canceling headset
s. Save time, money and go faster!
>
> Tim
>
> From: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kis-list-server@ma
tronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Stearns
> Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2013 12:28 PM
> To: kis-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4
>
> I used the spray on sound insulation from mcmaster carr on the rear wheel w
ell area of my corvette with a noticable reduction in road noise. I spraye
d a thick coat on the back of the firewall on my TR-1. I did not notice an i
mprovement there but It is hard to tell when it is so noisy already. I shou
ld have gotten a Db measuring devise for a before and after check.
>
> The spray on sound insulation for the unseen areas probably has a place in
the overall sound insulation plan. I plan to put it on both sides of the f
irewall on the TR-4 project.
>
> Still, in my experimce airplanes are just loud. A friend has a really ni
ce lancair ES with lots of expensive sound insulation and a really nice inte
rior, but it is still quite loud inside. We wear earplugs under noise cance
lling headsets in my TR-1 and I have to do the same thing in my friends supe
r insulated Lancair. It is worth doing some simple, quick, low cost sound i
nsulation I think, but also expect the airplane to still be pretty loud.
>
> One of the best things for long range fatigue and headaches is an oxygen s
ystem. A basic medical oxygen system filled using welding oxygen is pretty c
heap. And they make cool little devices that clip to the end of your fing
er to show blood oxygen levels.
>
> Migrane headaches are frequently caused by diet.
>
> If you are interested...
> http://www.drmcdougall.com/health/education/health-science/stars/stars-wri
tten/beth-burns/
>
> Scott
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 1, 2013, at 9:12 AM, Robert Reed <robertr237@att.net> wrote:
>
>> Mark,
>>
>> I hesitated to comment on this thread given that I am not finished and fl
ying yet but I totally agree with you on all points. If you are building a K
IS Cruiser then you are probably planning on some extensive cross country fl
ying and not just the local $100 hamburger runs. It didn't take but a coupl
e of trips to realize that the louder the plane the more exhausting the trip
. In my case, I have the added issue of my wife getting migraines and weari
ng the headset seems to make matters worse for her. For those reasons, I wi
ll be trying to put in as much sound absorption materials as I can without i
ncurring substantial weight issues.
>>
>> The plan which I have already partially completed is to use a layer of fo
am covered by cloth for all areas that can be upholstered. This includes th
e overhead back to the baggage bulkhead. The baggage bulkhead top and botto
m will also be covered as will the sides. The floor will be covered with fo
am and carpet. I will use some paint but only in areas that are not easily c
overed. The foam I am using is 1/8" and 1/4" fire rated black foam that I g
ot from McMasterCarr. I did the fire test and it does not burn. The 1/4" w
ill be used where possible but the 1/8" works well on Overhead. The foam wi
ll be bonded to the inside of the fuselage and in most places, the cloth wil
l be bonded to the foam.
>>
>> Bob Reed
>>
>> From: Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net>
>> To: kis-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 10:38 AM
>> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4
>>
>>
>> Hi Mike,
>>
>> You may want to consider sound in your interior finishing choice and meth
ods. The more you cover with thick carpet and padded cloth the more it will
reduce the sound. Even thin carpet can help. Glued with thick mastic is b
etter for sound. They make a thin short fuzz "carpet" that was popular for b
oat interiors and can really help with sound. Leather is also not a bad cho
ice since it is fairly fire resistant. Fully carpeted should give about 2dB
to 4dB reduction compared to normal paint.
>>
>> If you are going the paint route they make many different types of sound a
bsorbing paint. These paints reduce both reflection and transmission. A
good thick cover of sound reduction paint should give about 1dB to 2dB redu
ction compared to normal paint.
>>
>> This may not sound like a lot of reduction when we are starting with abou
t 110 to 115 dB and are using noise canceling headsets but keep in mind a 3d
B reduction is reducing the energy of the noise by half! The ear hears sound
"in dB" but in terms of hearing destruction it is the energy. Any sound ove
r about 85dB can cause hearing loss over time. Each time you double the ener
gy you just about double the hearing loss rate. So even with ANR headsets t
hat claim about 30dB total you are near the limit for hearing loss. Reduce t
he sealing of the headsets with sunglasses and you are over the limit. That
added 3dB can make a difference even if you hardly notice it.
>>
>> My Tr-1 is about 112 dB in cruise with padded cloth up to the door and zo
latone above.
>>
>> Mark K.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> >From: Mike Pienaar <mjpienaar@shaw.ca>
>> >Sent: Sep 30, 2013 9:42 PM
>> >To: kis-list@matronics.com
>> >Subject: KIS-List: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4
>> >
>> >
>> >Hi,
>> >
>> >Could I please get some ideas on how to finish the inside of the fuselag
e.
>> >
>> >I am thinking of painting the "roof" inside and carpeting only the areas
>> >where your feet are.
>> >
>> >In the baggage compartment I want to put carpet, should I reinforce the
>> >baggage compartment floor and do I need something to keep the baggage fr
om
>> >flying about.
>> >
>> >Has anybody had experience with Zolatone paint
>> >
>> >One of my main concerns is finishing off around the footwells, the front
of
>> >the seat bulkheads and areas that are not covered by upholstery
>> >
>> >Thanks
>> >
>> >Mike
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> < =================
======
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> =========
>> //www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
>> =========
>> cs.com
>> =========
>> matronics.com/contribution
>> =========
>>
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?KIS-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 9
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|
Subject: | Re: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4 |
Well, Just bonded my windscreen in place this last Sunday and I am committe
d to it now.- Will just have to make the best effort and see where it lea
ds.- I hope the wife will be able to use some of the newer headsets witho
ut the problems she had in the past.- There is only so much that can be j
ustified.=0A-=0ABOB=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Sc
ott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com>=0ATo: "kis-list@matronics.com" <kis-list@
matronics.com> =0ASent: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 8:58 PM=0ASubject: Re: KIS
-List: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4=0A =0A=0A=0AI should
add that the lancair ES I talked about also had the 3/8" wimdshield from th
e lancair IV.=0A=0AA 1/4 inch windshield for the TR-1 was about $500 when I
asked a few years ago. -I stayed with the-=0A1/8" I had.-=0A=0AScott
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Oct 1, 2013, at 5:05 PM, "Tim Yoder" <ftyoder@yoderbuilt.
com> wrote:=0A=0A=0AI read a report years ago by a Piper owner who was in t
he =0Amusic audio business and he spent lots of time and money insulating h
is plane so =0Ahe could better enjoy his music. Like these reported differe
nces, they were of =0Alittle value. I understand that a majority of the noi
se comes through the wind =0Ascreen. I did notice a good improvement in the
old C Bonanza when I replaced the =0Athin 1/8" or 3/16"-, I forget which
, with the-3/8" speed sloped single =0Awindscreen. It was measurably quit
ter and faster. One of the best Bonanza =0Amods.-The 1/2" is even better.
I had Rich get me A thicker one for my TR-1. =0AAs I recall the stock was
1/8" and I got a 3/16", should have gotten a 1/4" at =0Aleast.- =0A>-
=0A>My vote, since you asked :-), is for ear plugs and noise =0Acanceling h
eadsets. Save time, money and go faster! =0A>- =0A>Tim-=0A>=0A>=0A>____
____________________________=0A> From: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott =0AStearns
=0A>Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2013 12:28 PM=0A>To: kis-list@matronics.com
=0A>Subject: Re: KIS-List: Finishing the inside of =0Athe fuselage of a TR4
=0A>=0A> =0A>I used the spray on sound insulation from mcmaster carr on th
e rear wheel =0Awell area of my corvette with a noticable -reduction in r
oad noise. -I =0Asprayed a thick coat on the back of the firewall on my T
R-1. -I did not =0Anotice an improvement there but It is hard to tell whe
n it is so noisy already. =0A-I should have gotten a Db measuring devise
for a before and after check. =0A- =0A>=0A> =0A>The spray on sound insula
tion for the unseen areas probably has a place in =0Athe overall sound insu
lation plan. -I plan to put it on both sides of the =0Afirewall on the TR
-4 project. =0A>=0A> =0A>Still, in my experimce airplanes are just loud.
- A friend has a =0Areally nice lancair ES with lots of expensive sound i
nsulation and a really nice =0Ainterior, but it is still quite loud inside.
-We wear earplugs under noise =0Acancelling headsets in my TR-1 and I ha
ve to do the same thing in my friends =0Asuper insulated Lancair. -It is
worth doing some simple, quick, low cost =0Asound insulation I think, but a
lso expect the airplane to still be pretty =0Aloud. =0A>=0A> =0A>One of the
best things for long range fatigue and headaches is an oxygen =0Asystem.
-A basic medical oxygen system filled using welding oxygen is =0Apretty c
heap. - -And they make cool little devices that clip to the =0Aend of y
our finger to show blood oxygen levels. - =0A>=0A> =0A>Migrane headaches
are frequently caused by diet. -- =0A>=0A> =0A>If you are interested...
http://www.drmcdougall.com/health/education/health-science/stars/stars-writ
ten/beth-burns/ =0A>=0A> =0A>Scott =0A>=0A> =0A>=0A> =0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>=0A>
=0A> =0A>=0A>On Oct 1, 2013, at 9:12 AM, Robert Reed <robertr237@att.net> w
rote:=0A>=0A> =0A>Mark, =0A>>- =0A>>I hesitated to comment on this threa
d given that I am not finished and flying yet but I totally agree with you
on all points.- If you are building a KIS Cruiser then you are probably
planning on some extensive cross country flying and not just the local $1
00 hamburger runs.- It didn't take but a couple of trips to realize that
the louder the plane the more exhausting the trip.- In my case, I have
the added issue of my wife getting migraines and wearing the headset seems
to make matters worse for her.- For those reasons, I will be trying to
put in as much sound absorption-materials as I can without incurring sub
stantial weight issues. =0A>>- =0A>>The plan which I have already partia
lly completed is to use a layer of foam covered by cloth for all areas tha
t can be upholstered.- This includes the overhead back to the baggage bu
lkhead.- The baggage bulkhead top and bottom will also be covered as wil
l the sides.- The floor will be covered with foam and carpet.- I will
use some paint but only in areas that are not easily covered.- The foam
I am using is-1/8" and 1/4" fire rated black foam that I got from McMast
erCarr.- I did the fire test and it-does not burn.- The 1/4" will be
used where possible but the 1/8" works well on Overhead.- The foam will
be bonded to the inside of the fuselage and in most places, the cloth wil
l be bonded to the foam.-- =0A>>- =0A>>Bob Reed-- =0A>>=0A>> =0A
>>=0A>>________________________________=0A>>From: Mark Kettering <mantafs@e
arthlink.net>=0A>>To: kis-list@matronics.com =0A>>Sent: Tuesday, October 1,
2013 10:38 AM=0A>>Subject: Re: KIS-List: Finishing the inside of the fus
tering <mantafs@earthlink.net>=0A>>=0A>>Hi =0A Mike,=0A>>=0A>>You may want
to consider sound in your interior finishing choice =0A and methods.- T
he more you cover with thick carpet and padded cloth the =0A more it will
reduce the sound.- Even thin carpet can help.- Glued =0A with thick ma
stic is better for sound. They make a thin short fuzz "carpet" =0A that wa
s popular for boat interiors and can really help with sound.- =0A Leathe
r is also not a bad choice since it is fairly fire resistant.- =0A Fully
carpeted should give about 2dB to 4dB reduction compared to normal =0A pa
int.=0A>>=0A>>If you are going the paint route they make many different typ
es =0A of sound absorbing paint.- These paints reduce both reflection an
d =0A transmission.- A good thick cover of sound reduction paint should
give =0A about 1dB to 2dB reduction compared to normal paint.=0A>>=0A>>Thi
s may not sound =0A like a lot of reduction when we are starting with abou
t 110 to 115 dB and are =0A using noise canceling headsets but keep in min
d a 3dB reduction is reducing =0A the energy of the noise by half! The ear
hears sound "in dB" but in terms of =0A hearing destruction it is the ene
rgy. Any sound over about 85dB can cause =0A hearing loss over time. Each
time you double the energy you just about double =0A the hearing loss rate
.- So even with ANR headsets that claim about 30dB =0A total you are nea
r the limit for hearing loss.- Reduce the sealing of the =0A headsets wi
th sunglasses and you are over the limit.- That added 3dB can =0A make a
difference even if you hardly notice it.=0A>>=0A>>My Tr-1 is about 112 dB
=0A in cruise with padded cloth up to the door and zolatone above.=0A>>=0A
>>Mark =0A K.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>-----Original Message-----=0A>>>From: Mike Pie
naar <mjpienaar@shaw.ca>=0A>>>Sent: Sep =0A 30, 2013 9:42 PM=0A>>>To: kis-
list@matronics.com=0A>>>Subject: =0A KIS-List: Finishing the inside of the
fuselage of a TR4=0A>>>=0A>>>--> =0A KIS-List message posted by: "Mike Pi
enaar" <mjpienaar@shaw.ca>=0A>>>=0A>>>Hi,=0A>>>=0A>>>Could =0A I please ge
t some ideas on how to finish the inside of the =0A fuselage.=0A>>>=0A>>>I
am thinking of painting the "roof" inside and =0A carpeting only the area
s =0A>>>where your feet are.=0A>>>=0A>>>In the =0A baggage compartment I w
ant to put carpet, should I reinforce the =0A>>>baggage compartment floor a
nd do I need something to keep the baggage =0A from =0A>>>flying about.=0A
>>>=0A>>>Has anybody had experience with =0A Zolatone paint=0A>>>=0A>>>One
of my main concerns is finishing off around =0A the footwells, the front
of =0A>>>the seat bulkheads and areas that are not =0A covered by upholste
ry=0A>>>=0A>>>Thanks=0A>>>=0A>>>Mike =0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>=0A
>><- - - =0A - - - - - - - =0A -======
===================0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>
=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>===========0A//www.matronics.com/Navigat
or?KIS-List=0A========== cs.com =======
=== matronics.com/contribution ========== =0A>hre
f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics.com/
Navigator?KIS-List href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matr
onics.com/ href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matron
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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Subject: | Official KIS-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the KIS-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The
complete KIS-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/KIS-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
[ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as
Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ]
This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/KIS-List.htm
************************************************************
******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS *******
************************************************************
PLEASE READ. This document contains KIS-List policies and information
for new and old subscribers. Understanding the KIS-List policies will
minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the KIS-List
running smoothly for all of us.
******************************************
*** Quick Start Guide to List Features ***
******************************************
There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each
one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator
you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this
List. The List Navigator can be found at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
****************************************
*** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe ***
****************************************
Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and
select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You
may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of
your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the
complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information.
The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is:
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption
process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request
was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed.
You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request.
The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post
until you receive the second conformation email message.
*****************************
*** How to Post a Message ***
*****************************
Send an email message to:
kis-list@matronics.com
Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed
to the List.
*****************************************************
*** SPAM Fighter - You Must be Subscribed to Post ***
*****************************************************
When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message
is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the
email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor.
If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it
is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that
gets posted to the Lists.
Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important
with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook
or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be
functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM
test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List:
smith@machine.domain.com
smith@domain.com
Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure
your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to
the List.
**************************************
*** Enclosure Support on the Lists ***
**************************************
Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets
is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these
are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the
content of enclosures.
These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics
Lists:
1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists.
2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists.
3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site.
4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives.
5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature.
6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed:
bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls
All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to
sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from
a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk.
7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting
to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down
the process of posting the message !!
Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules
could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists.
1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files
you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there
are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post
30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these
folks and the rest of us, for that matter.
2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000
pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just
unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture
down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the
file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less.
Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows
you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically
scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it!
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx
Look for the link "Image Resizer"
3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not
post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother.
And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even
questionable. !!
4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members
subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting
to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and
BE COURTEOUS!
Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where
you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server
for long time viewing and availability.
*******************
*** Digest Mode ***
*******************
Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started.
This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended
to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:"
and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting
of a line of underscores.
Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be
combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list.
To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form
described above, and just select the Digest version of the List.
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions
of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable.
Now some caveats:
* Messages sent to "kis-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard
email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the
digest List.
* If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you
will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of
the day.
* If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the
normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change
the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please
*do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*.
****************************
*** List Digest Browser ***
****************************
An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text
or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to
the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found
at the following location:
http://www.matronics.com/digest
*****************************************
*** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag ***
*****************************************
At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very
small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive
it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the
message:
do not archive
Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List
email distribution as normal.
**********************************************
***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes *****
**********************************************
Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced
email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly
removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving
messages from the KIS-List, go to the following Web page, and look
for your email address and a possible reason for your removal.
The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that
automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that
caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox
full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the
Lists you will find record of it at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed
If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel
free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice.
*******************************
*** List Member Information ***
*******************************
If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and
paper mail address in the following format:
smith@somehost.com
Joe Smith
123 Airport Lane
Tower, CA 91234-1234
098-765-1234 w
123-456-7890 h
Please forward this information to the following email address:
requests@matronics.com
I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when
there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT
be used for any other commercial purpose.
****************************************
*** Realtime Web Email List Browsing ***
****************************************
Recent messages posted to the KIS-List are also made available on
the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are
available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject,
Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are
updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message
or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon).
You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List
Browser Interface in view-mode.
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/kis-list
*******************************************
*** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface ***
*******************************************
A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all KIS-List content.
content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email
distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the
List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the
respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to
the web Forums.
You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login.
If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you
will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few
minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the
main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also
enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to
Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the
Email Distribution of the List, however.
The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL:
http://forums.matronics.com
*********************************
*** Matronics Email List Wiki ***
*********************************
In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed
information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at:
http://wiki.matronics.com
The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information
for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page
where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki
permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately.
While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be
comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any
images and email it to:
wiki-support@matronics.com
One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct
a Wiki page for you.
Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the
Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that
post and convert it into a Wiki page.
*********************
*** List Archives ***
*********************
A file containing of all of the previous postings to the KIS-List is
available on line. The archive file information is available via the
Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below:
* KIS-List.FAQ
- Latest version of the KIS-List Frequently Asked Question
page (this document).
* KIS-Archive.digest.complete
- Complete file with most of the email header info removed and
page breaks inserted between messages.
* KIS-Archive.digest.vol-??
- Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that
can more easily handled.
* KIS-Archive.digest.complete.zip
- Same as the KIS-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
* KIS-Archive.digest.complete.Z
- Same as the KIS-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in
UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
Download Via FTP
----------------
The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in
a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.)
ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
******************************************
*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
******************************************
All messages posted to the KIS-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?KIS
*****************************************
**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
*****************************************
You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to
process them every few days.
Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
**************************
*** List Archive CDROM ***
**************************
A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
**********************************
*** List Support Contributions ***
**********************************
The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members.
You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of
annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages
associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November
I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month,
I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
are comfortable.
I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the
Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated
by companies that are themselves List members.
Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists
including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server
system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many
many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the
variety of services found here.
Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary
and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains
value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude.
Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just
subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in.
The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are
a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and
sending a personal check.
If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
support its continued operation?
http://www.matronics.com/contributions
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
KIS-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the KIS-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the KIS-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
KIS-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the KIS-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
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Subject: | Official KIS-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the KIS-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
KIS-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/KIS-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
KIS-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the KIS-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the KIS-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
KIS-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the KIS-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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