---------------------------------------------------------- KIS-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 10/02/13: 4 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:49 AM - Re: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4 (Alfred Rosa) 2. 05:19 AM - Re: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4 (Galin Hernandez) 3. 05:35 AM - Re: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4 (Robert Reed) 4. 09:09 AM - Re: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4 (Scott Stearns) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:49:17 AM PST US Subject: Re: KIS-List: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4 From: Alfred Rosa Scott, are you sure your windshield is not 3/16ths? My TR4 came with 1/8 t h inch side windows but the windscreen is thicker. Al Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 1, 2013, at 9:58 PM, Scott Stearns wrote: > > I should add that the lancair ES I talked about also had the 3/8" wimdshie ld from the lancair IV. > > A 1/4 inch windshield for the TR-1 was about $500 when I asked a few years ago. I stayed with the > 1/8" I had. > > Scott > > > >> On Oct 1, 2013, at 5:05 PM, "Tim Yoder" wrote: >> >> I read a report years ago by a Piper owner who was in the music audio bus iness and he spent lots of time and money insulating his plane so he could b etter enjoy his music. Like these reported differences, they were of little v alue. I understand that a majority of the noise comes through the wind scree n. I did notice a good improvement in the old C Bonanza when I replaced the t hin 1/8" or 3/16" , I forget which, with the 3/8" speed sloped single windsc reen. It was measurably quitter and faster. One of the best Bonanza mods. Th e 1/2" is even better. I had Rich get me A thicker one for my TR-1. As I rec all the stock was 1/8" and I got a 3/16", should have gotten a 1/4" at least . >> >> My vote, since you asked :-), is for ear plugs and noise canceling headse ts. Save time, money and go faster! >> >> Tim >> >> From: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kis-list-server@m atronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Stearns >> Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2013 12:28 PM >> To: kis-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4 >> >> I used the spray on sound insulation from mcmaster carr on the rear wheel well area of my corvette with a noticable reduction in road noise. I spra yed a thick coat on the back of the firewall on my TR-1. I did not notice a n improvement there but It is hard to tell when it is so noisy already. I s hould have gotten a Db measuring devise for a before and after check. >> >> The spray on sound insulation for the unseen areas probably has a place i n the overall sound insulation plan. I plan to put it on both sides of the f irewall on the TR-4 project. >> >> Still, in my experimce airplanes are just loud. A friend has a really n ice lancair ES with lots of expensive sound insulation and a really nice int erior, but it is still quite loud inside. We wear earplugs under noise canc elling headsets in my TR-1 and I have to do the same thing in my friends sup er insulated Lancair. It is worth doing some simple, quick, low cost sound i nsulation I think, but also expect the airplane to still be pretty loud. >> >> One of the best things for long range fatigue and headaches is an oxygen s ystem. A basic medical oxygen system filled using welding oxygen is pretty c heap. And they make cool little devices that clip to the end of your fing er to show blood oxygen levels. >> >> Migrane headaches are frequently caused by diet. >> >> If you are interested... >> http://www.drmcdougall.com/health/education/health-science/stars/stars-wr itten/beth-burns/ >> >> Scott >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Oct 1, 2013, at 9:12 AM, Robert Reed wrote: >> >>> Mark, >>> >>> I hesitated to comment on this thread given that I am not finished and f lying yet but I totally agree with you on all points. If you are building a KIS Cruiser then you are probably planning on some extensive cross country f lying and not just the local $100 hamburger runs. It didn't take but a coup le of trips to realize that the louder the plane the more exhausting the tri p. In my case, I have the added issue of my wife getting migraines and wear ing the headset seems to make matters worse for her. For those reasons, I w ill be trying to put in as much sound absorption materials as I can witho ut incurring substantial weight issues. >>> >>> The plan which I have already partially completed is to use a layer of f oam covered by cloth for all areas that can be upholstered. This includes t he overhead back to the baggage bulkhead. The baggage bulkhead top and bott om will also be covered as will the sides. The floor will be covered with f oam and carpet. I will use some paint but only in areas that are not easily covered. The foam I am using is 1/8" and 1/4" fire rated black foam that I got from McMasterCarr. I did the fire test and it does not burn. The 1/4" will be used where possible but the 1/8" works well on Overhead. The foam w ill be bonded to the inside of the fuselage and in most places, the cloth wi ll be bonded to the foam. >>> >>> Bob Reed >>> >>> From: Mark Kettering >>> To: kis-list@matronics.com >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 10:38 AM >>> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4 >>> >>> >>> Hi Mike, >>> >>> You may want to consider sound in your interior finishing choice and met hods. The more you cover with thick carpet and padded cloth the more it wil l reduce the sound. Even thin carpet can help. Glued with thick mastic is b etter for sound. They make a thin short fuzz "carpet" that was popular for b oat interiors and can really help with sound. Leather is also not a bad cho ice since it is fairly fire resistant. Fully carpeted should give about 2dB to 4dB reduction compared to normal paint. >>> >>> If you are going the paint route they make many different types of sound absorbing paint. These paints reduce both reflection and transmission. A g ood thick cover of sound reduction paint should give about 1dB to 2dB reduct ion compared to normal paint. >>> >>> This may not sound like a lot of reduction when we are starting with abo ut 110 to 115 dB and are using noise canceling headsets but keep in mind a 3 dB reduction is reducing the energy of the noise by half! The ear hears soun d "in dB" but in terms of hearing destruction it is the energy. Any sound ov er about 85dB can cause hearing loss over time. Each time you double the ene rgy you just about double the hearing loss rate. So even with ANR headsets t hat claim about 30dB total you are near the limit for hearing loss. Reduce t he sealing of the headsets with sunglasses and you are over the limit. T hat added 3dB can make a difference even if you hardly notice it. >>> >>> My Tr-1 is about 112 dB in cruise with padded cloth up to the door and z olatone above. >>> >>> Mark K. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> >From: Mike Pienaar >>> >Sent: Sep 30, 2013 9:42 PM >>> >To: kis-list@matronics.com >>> >Subject: KIS-List: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4 >>> > >>> > >>> >Hi, >>> > >>> >Could I please get some ideas on how to finish the inside of the fusela ge. >>> > >>> >I am thinking of painting the "roof" inside and carpeting only the area s >>> >where your feet are. >>> > >>> >In the baggage compartment I want to put carpet, should I reinforce the >>> >baggage compartment floor and do I need something to keep the baggage f rom >>> >flying about. >>> > >>> >Has anybody had experience with Zolatone paint >>> > >>> >One of my main concerns is finishing off around the footwells, the fron t of >>> >the seat bulkheads and areas that are not covered by upholstery >>> > >>> >Thanks >>> > >>> >Mike >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >>> < ================= ====== >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ========= >>> //www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List >>> ========= >>> cs.com >>> ========= >>> matronics.com/contribution >>> ========= >>> >> >> >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics .com/Navigator?KIS-List >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c >> >> >> > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:19:26 AM PST US From: Galin Hernandez Subject: Re: KIS-List: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4 I agree with Tim. I switched to good ANR headset and the difference is very noticeable. I feel spending the $$$ on a good ANR headset instead of permanent noise insulation is a better value. Even in a well insulated airplane, most pilots will wind up going with a good ANR headset anyways. Airplanes are noisy. Also, look into the "in the ear" headset like the Clarity Aloft or the QT Halos. For some people the comfort is better, noise reduction is just as good as an ANR, you can wear glasses without change in the noise level and your hair doesn't get messed up. Galin On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 8:05 PM, Tim Yoder wrote: > ** > I read a report years ago by a Piper owner who was in the music audio > business and he spent lots of time and money insulating his plane so he > could better enjoy his music. Like these reported differences, they were of > little value. I understand that a majority of the noise comes through the > wind screen. I did notice a good improvement in the old C Bonanza when I > replaced the thin 1/8" or 3/16" , I forget which, with the 3/8" speed > sloped single windscreen. It was measurably quitter and faster. One of the > best Bonanza mods. The 1/2" is even better. I had Rich get me A thicker one > for my TR-1. As I recall the stock was 1/8" and I got a 3/16", should have > gotten a 1/4" at least. > > My vote, since you asked :-), is for ear plugs and noise canceling > headsets. Save time, money and go faster! > > Tim > > ------------------------------ > *From:* owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Scott Stearns > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 01, 2013 12:28 PM > *To:* kis-list@matronics.com > > *Subject:* Re: KIS-List: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4 > > I used the spray on sound insulation from mcmaster carr on the rear > wheel well area of my corvette with a noticable reduction in road noise. > I sprayed a thick coat on the back of the firewall on my TR-1. I did not > notice an improvement there but It is hard to tell when it is so noisy > already. I should have gotten a Db measuring devise for a before and after > check. > > The spray on sound insulation for the unseen areas probably has a place in > the overall sound insulation plan. I plan to put it on both sides of the > firewall on the TR-4 project. > > Still, in my experimce airplanes are just loud. A friend has a really > nice lancair ES with lots of expensive sound insulation and a really nice > interior, but it is still quite loud inside. We wear earplugs under noise > cancelling headsets in my TR-1 and I have to do the same thing in my > friends super insulated Lancair. It is worth doing some simple, quick, low > cost sound insulation I think, but also expect the airplane to still be > pretty loud. > > One of the best things for long range fatigue and headaches is an oxygen > system. A basic medical oxygen system filled using welding oxygen is > pretty cheap. And they make cool little devices that clip to the end of > your finger to show blood oxygen levels. > > Migrane headaches are frequently caused by diet. > > If you are interested... > > http://www.drmcdougall.com/health/education/health-science/stars/stars-written/beth-burns/ > > Scott > > > On Oct 1, 2013, at 9:12 AM, Robert Reed wrote: > > Mark, > > I hesitated to comment on this thread given that I am not finished and > flying yet but I totally agree with you on all points. If you are building > a KIS Cruiser then you are probably planning on some extensive cross > country flying and not just the local $100 hamburger runs. It didn't take > but a couple of trips to realize that the louder the plane the more > exhausting the trip. In my case, I have the added issue of my wife getting > migraines and wearing the headset seems to make matters worse for her. For > those reasons, I will be trying to put in as much sound > absorption materials as I can without incurring substantial weight issues. > > The plan which I have already partially completed is to use a layer of > foam covered by cloth for all areas that can be upholstered. This includes > the overhead back to the baggage bulkhead. The baggage bulkhead top and > bottom will also be covered as will the sides. The floor will be covered > with foam and carpet. I will use some paint but only in areas that are not > easily covered. The foam I am using is 1/8" and 1/4" fire rated black foam > that I got from McMasterCarr. I did the fire test and it does not burn. > The 1/4" will be used where possible but the 1/8" works well on Overhead. > The foam will be bonded to the inside of the fuselage and in most places, > the cloth will be bonded to the foam. > > Bob Reed > > *From:* Mark Kettering > *To:* kis-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 1, 2013 10:38 AM > *Subject:* Re: KIS-List: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4 > > > Hi Mike, > > You may want to consider sound in your interior finishing choice and > methods. The more you cover with thick carpet and padded cloth the more it > will reduce the sound. Even thin carpet can help. Glued with thick mastic > is better for sound. They make a thin short fuzz "carpet" that was popular > for boat interiors and can really help with sound. Leather is also not a > bad choice since it is fairly fire resistant. Fully carpeted should give > about 2dB to 4dB reduction compared to normal paint. > > If you are going the paint route they make many different types of sound > absorbing paint. These paints reduce both reflection and transmission. A > good thick cover of sound reduction paint should give about 1dB to 2dB > reduction compared to normal paint. > > This may not sound like a lot of reduction when we are starting with about > 110 to 115 dB and are using noise canceling headsets but keep in mind a 3dB > reduction is reducing the energy of the noise by half! The ear hears sound > "in dB" but in terms of hearing destruction it is the energy. Any sound > over about 85dB can cause hearing loss over time. Each time you double the > energy you just about double the hearing loss rate. So even with ANR > headsets that claim about 30dB total you are near the limit for hearing > loss. Reduce the sealing of the headsets with sunglasses and you are over > the limit. That added 3dB can make a difference even if you hardly notice > it. > > My Tr-1 is about 112 dB in cruise with padded cloth up to the door and > zolatone above. > > Mark K. > > > -----Original Message----- > >From: Mike Pienaar > >Sent: Sep 30, 2013 9:42 PM > >To: kis-list@matronics.com > >Subject: KIS-List: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4 > > > > > >Hi, > > > >Could I please get some ideas on how to finish the inside of the fuselage. > > > >I am thinking of painting the "roof" inside and carpeting only the areas > >where your feet are. > > > >In the baggage compartment I want to put carpet, should I reinforce the > >baggage compartment floor and do I need something to keep the baggage > from > >flying about. > > > >Has anybody had experience with Zolatone paint > > > >One of my main concerns is finishing off around the footwells, the front > of > >the seat bulkheads and areas that are not covered by upholstery > > > >Thanks > > > >Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > < ======================= > > > * > > ========= > //www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List > ==========cs.com > ==========matronics.com/contribution > ========= > * > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c* > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:35:18 AM PST US Subject: Re: KIS-List: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4 From: Robert Reed That last statement sells it for me...can't have my hair getting messed up! :( Bob Reed Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 2, 2013, at 7:18 AM, Galin Hernandez wrote: > > I agree with Tim. I switched to good ANR headset and the difference is ver y noticeable. I feel spending the $$$ on a good ANR headset instead of perma nent noise insulation is a better value. Even in a well insulated airplane, m ost pilots will wind up going with a good ANR headset anyways. Airplanes are noisy. > > Also, look into the "in the ear" headset like the Clarity Aloft or the QT H alos. For some people the comfort is better, noise reduction is just as good as an ANR, you can wear glasses without change in the noise level and your h air doesn't get messed up. > > Galin > > >> On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 8:05 PM, Tim Yoder wrote: >> I read a report years ago by a Piper owner who was in the music audio bus iness and he spent lots of time and money insulating his plane so he could b etter enjoy his music. Like these reported differences, they were of little v alue. I understand that a majority of the noise comes through the wind scree n. I did notice a good improvement in the old C Bonanza when I replaced the t hin 1/8" or 3/16" , I forget which, with the 3/8" speed sloped single windsc reen. It was measurably quitter and faster. One of the best Bonanza mods. Th e 1/2" is even better. I had Rich get me A thicker one for my TR-1. As I rec all the stock was 1/8" and I got a 3/16", should have gotten a 1/4" at least . >> >> My vote, since you asked :-), is for ear plugs and noise canceling headse ts. Save time, money and go faster! >> >> Tim >> >> From: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kis-list-server@m atronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Stearns >> Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2013 12:28 PM >> To: kis-list@matronics.com >> >> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4 >> >> I used the spray on sound insulation from mcmaster carr on the rear wheel well area of my corvette with a noticable reduction in road noise. I spra yed a thick coat on the back of the firewall on my TR-1. I did not notice a n improvement there but It is hard to tell when it is so noisy already. I s hould have gotten a Db measuring devise for a before and after check. >> >> The spray on sound insulation for the unseen areas probably has a place i n the overall sound insulation plan. I plan to put it on both sides of the f irewall on the TR-4 project. >> >> Still, in my experimce airplanes are just loud. A friend has a really n ice lancair ES with lots of expensive sound insulation and a really nice int erior, but it is still quite loud inside. We wear earplugs under noise canc elling headsets in my TR-1 and I have to do the same thing in my friends sup er insulated Lancair. It is worth doing some simple, quick, low cost sound i nsulation I think, but also expect the airplane to still be pretty loud. >> >> One of the best things for long range fatigue and headaches is an oxygen s ystem. A basic medical oxygen system filled using welding oxygen is pretty c heap. And they make cool little devices that clip to the end of your fing er to show blood oxygen levels. >> >> Migrane headaches are frequently caused by diet. >> >> If you are interested... >> http://www.drmcdougall.com/health/education/health-science/stars/stars-wr itten/beth-burns/ >> >> Scott >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Oct 1, 2013, at 9:12 AM, Robert Reed wrote: >> >>> Mark, >>> >>> I hesitated to comment on this thread given that I am not finished and f lying yet but I totally agree with you on all points. If you are building a KIS Cruiser then you are probably planning on some extensive cross country f lying and not just the local $100 hamburger runs. It didn't take but a coup le of trips to realize that the louder the plane the more exhausting the tri p. In my case, I have the added issue of my wife getting migraines and wear ing the headset seems to make matters worse for her. For those reasons, I w ill be trying to put in as much sound absorption materials as I can witho ut incurring substantial weight issues. >>> >>> The plan which I have already partially completed is to use a layer of f oam covered by cloth for all areas that can be upholstered. This includes t he overhead back to the baggage bulkhead. The baggage bulkhead top and bott om will also be covered as will the sides. The floor will be covered with f oam and carpet. I will use some paint but only in areas that are not easily covered. The foam I am using is 1/8" and 1/4" fire rated black foam that I got from McMasterCarr. I did the fire test and it does not burn. The 1/4" will be used where possible but the 1/8" works well on Overhead. The foam w ill be bonded to the inside of the fuselage and in most places, the cloth wi ll be bonded to the foam. >>> >>> Bob Reed >>> >>> From: Mark Kettering >>> To: kis-list@matronics.com >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 10:38 AM >>> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4 >>> >>> >>> Hi Mike, >>> >>> You may want to consider sound in your interior finishing choice and met hods. The more you cover with thick carpet and padded cloth the more it wil l reduce the sound. Even thin carpet can help. Glued with thick mastic is b etter for sound. They make a thin short fuzz "carpet" that was popular for b oat interiors and can really help with sound. Leather is also not a bad cho ice since it is fairly fire resistant. Fully carpeted should give about 2dB to 4dB reduction compared to normal paint. >>> >>> If you are going the paint route they make many different types of sound absorbing paint. These paints reduce both reflection and transmission. A g ood thick cover of sound reduction paint should give about 1dB to 2dB reduct ion compared to normal paint. >>> >>> This may not sound like a lot of reduction when we are starting with abo ut 110 to 115 dB and are using noise canceling headsets but keep in mind a 3 dB reduction is reducing the energy of the noise by half! The ear hears soun d "in dB" but in terms of hearing destruction it is the energy. Any sound ov er about 85dB can cause hearing loss over time. Each time you double the ene rgy you just about double the hearing loss rate. So even with ANR headsets t hat claim about 30dB total you are near the limit for hearing loss. Reduce t he sealing of the headsets with sunglasses and you are over the limit. T hat added 3dB can make a difference even if you hardly notice it. >>> >>> My Tr-1 is about 112 dB in cruise with padded cloth up to the door and z olatone above. >>> >>> Mark K. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> >From: Mike Pienaar >>> >Sent: Sep 30, 2013 9:42 PM >>> >To: kis-list@matronics.com >>> >Subject: KIS-List: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4 >>> > >>> > >>> >Hi, >>> > >>> >Could I please get some ideas on how to finish the inside of the fusela ge. >>> > >>> >I am thinking of painting the "roof" inside and carpeting only the area s >>> >where your feet are. >>> > >>> >In the baggage compartment I want to put carpet, should I reinforce the >>> >baggage compartment floor and do I need something to keep the baggage f rom >>> >flying about. >>> > >>> >Has anybody had experience with Zolatone paint >>> > >>> >One of my main concerns is finishing off around the footwells, the fron t of >>> >the seat bulkheads and areas that are not covered by upholstery >>> > >>> >Thanks >>> > >>> >Mike >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >>> < ================= ====== >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ========= >>> //www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List >>> ========= >>> cs.com >>> ========= >>> matronics.com/contribution >>> ========= >>> >> >> >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics .com/Navigator?KIS-List >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c >> >> >> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List >> tp://forums.matronics.com >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:09:16 AM PST US Subject: Re: KIS-List: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4 From: Scott Stearns I was talking about my TR-1. You might be right about the cruiser windshiel d. I have not looked at it yet. Scott On Oct 2, 2013, at 4:43 AM, Alfred Rosa wrote: > Scott, are you sure your windshield is not 3/16ths? My TR4 came with 1/8 th inch side windows but the windscreen is thicker. > Al > Sent from my iPhone > > On Oct 1, 2013, at 9:58 PM, Scott Stearns wrote: > >> I should add that the lancair ES I talked about also had the 3/8" wimdshi eld from the lancair IV. >> >> A 1/4 inch windshield for the TR-1 was about $500 when I asked a few year s ago. I stayed with the >> 1/8" I had. >> >> Scott >> >> >> >> On Oct 1, 2013, at 5:05 PM, "Tim Yoder" wrote: >> >>> I read a report years ago by a Piper owner who was in the music audio bu siness and he spent lots of time and money insulating his plane so he could b etter enjoy his music. Like these reported differences, they were of little v alue. I understand that a majority of the noise comes through the wind scree n. I did notice a good improvement in the old C Bonanza when I replaced the t hin 1/8" or 3/16" , I forget which, with the 3/8" speed sloped single windsc reen. It was measurably quitter and faster. One of the best Bonanza mods. Th e 1/2" is even better. I had Rich get me A thicker one for my TR-1. As I rec all the stock was 1/8" and I got a 3/16", should have gotten a 1/4" at least . >>> >>> My vote, since you asked :-), is for ear plugs and noise canceling heads ets. Save time, money and go faster! >>> >>> Tim >>> >>> From: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kis-list-server@ matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Stearns >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2013 12:28 PM >>> To: kis-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4 >>> >>> I used the spray on sound insulation from mcmaster carr on the rear whee l well area of my corvette with a noticable reduction in road noise. I spr ayed a thick coat on the back of the firewall on my TR-1. I did not notice a n improvement there but It is hard to tell when it is so noisy already. I s hould have gotten a Db measuring devise for a before and after check. >>> >>> The spray on sound insulation for the unseen areas probably has a place i n the overall sound insulation plan. I plan to put it on both sides of the f irewall on the TR-4 project. >>> >>> Still, in my experimce airplanes are just loud. A friend has a really n ice lancair ES with lots of expensive sound insulation and a really nice int erior, but it is still quite loud inside. We wear earplugs under noise canc elling headsets in my TR-1 and I have to do the same thing in my friends sup er insulated Lancair. It is worth doing some simple, quick, low cost sound i nsulation I think, but also expect the airplane to still be pretty loud. >>> >>> One of the best things for long range fatigue and headaches is an oxygen system. A basic medical oxygen system filled using welding oxygen is prett y cheap. And they make cool little devices that clip to the end of your f inger to show blood oxygen levels. >>> >>> Migrane headaches are frequently caused by diet. >>> >>> If you are interested... >>> http://www.drmcdougall.com/health/education/health-science/stars/stars-w ritten/beth-burns/ >>> >>> Scott >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Oct 1, 2013, at 9:12 AM, Robert Reed wrote: >>> >>>> Mark, >>>> >>>> I hesitated to comment on this thread given that I am not finished and f lying yet but I totally agree with you on all points. If you are building a KIS Cruiser then you are probably planning on some extensive cross country f lying and not just the local $100 hamburger runs. It didn't take but a coup le of trips to realize that the louder the plane the more exhausting the tri p. In my case, I have the added issue of my wife getting migraines and wear ing the headset seems to make matters worse for her. For those reasons, I w ill be trying to put in as much sound absorption materials as I can without i ncurring substantial weight issues. >>>> >>>> The plan which I have already partially completed is to use a layer of f oam covered by cloth for all areas that can be upholstered. This includes t he overhead back to the baggage bulkhead. The baggage bulkhead top and bott om will also be covered as will the sides. The floor will be covered with f oam and carpet. I will use some paint but only in areas that are not easily covered. The foam I am using is 1/8" and 1/4" fire rated black foam that I got from McMasterCarr. I did the fire test and it does not burn. The 1/4" will be used where possible but the 1/8" works well on Overhead. The foam w ill be bonded to the inside of the fuselage and in most places, the cloth wi ll be bonded to the foam. >>>> >>>> Bob Reed >>>> >>>> From: Mark Kettering >>>> To: kis-list@matronics.com >>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 10:38 AM >>>> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4 >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Mike, >>>> >>>> You may want to consider sound in your interior finishing choice and me thods. The more you cover with thick carpet and padded cloth the more it wi ll reduce the sound. Even thin carpet can help. Glued with thick mastic is better for sound. They make a thin short fuzz "carpet" that was popular for boat interiors and can really help with sound. Leather is also not a bad c hoice since it is fairly fire resistant. Fully carpeted should give about 2 dB to 4dB reduction compared to normal paint. >>>> >>>> If you are going the paint route they make many different types of soun d absorbing paint. These paints reduce both reflection and transmission. A good thick cover of sound reduction paint should give about 1dB to 2dB redu ction compared to normal paint. >>>> >>>> This may not sound like a lot of reduction when we are starting with ab out 110 to 115 dB and are using noise canceling headsets but keep in mind a 3 dB reduction is reducing the energy of the noise by half! The ear hears soun d "in dB" but in terms of hearing destruction it is the energy. Any sound over about 85dB can cause hearing loss over time. Each time you double the e nergy you just about double the hearing loss rate. So even with ANR headset s that claim about 30dB total you are near the limit for hearing loss. Redu ce the sealing of the headsets with sunglasses and you are over the limit. T hat added 3dB can make a difference even if you hardly notice it. >>>> >>>> My Tr-1 is about 112 dB in cruise with padded cloth up to the door and z olatone above. >>>> >>>> Mark K. >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> >From: Mike Pienaar >>>> >Sent: Sep 30, 2013 9:42 PM >>>> >To: kis-list@matronics.com >>>> >Subject: KIS-List: Finishing the inside of the fuselage of a TR4 >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >Hi, >>>> > >>>> >Could I please get some ideas on how to finish the inside of the fusel age. >>>> > >>>> >I am thinking of painting the "roof" inside and carpeting only the are as >>>> >where your feet are. >>>> > >>>> >In the baggage compartment I want to put carpet, should I reinforce th e >>>> >baggage compartment floor and do I need something to keep the baggage f rom >>>> >flying about. >>>> > >>>> >Has anybody had experience with Zolatone paint >>>> > >>>> >One of my main concerns is finishing off around the footwells, the fro nt of >>>> >the seat bulkheads and areas that are not covered by upholstery >>>> > >>>> >Thanks >>>> > >>>> >Mike >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>>> < ================= ====== >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ========= >>>> //www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List >>>> ========= >>>> cs.com >>>> ========= >>>> matronics.com/contribution >>>> ========= >>>> >>> >>> >>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?KIS-List >>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ c >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kis-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/KIS-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kis-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kis-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.