---------------------------------------------------------- KIS-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 05/26/14: 4 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:34 PM - TR-4 Flap Actuation Forces (fasilpereira) 2. 04:17 PM - Re: TR-4 Flap Actuation Forces (William Schertz) 3. 04:43 PM - Re: TR-4 Flap Actuation Forces (jerzy krasinski) 4. 07:57 PM - Re: TR-4 Flap Actuation Forces (Scott Stearns) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:34:14 PM PST US Subject: KIS-List: TR-4 Flap Actuation Forces From: "fasilpereira" I'm starting to work on the TR-4 kit that I bought from Ted Scott. I've removed all the interior that came with the project. The car seats were too heavy for me and the insulation material was flammable.... My project came with an electric actuator partially installed on the Flap System. The parts for the original Johnson bar system was included too. As the Johnson bar system is so light (or the electric actuator so heavy?), I'm thinking on installing the original system (KIS principle).... I'm just worried about the actuation forces on the Johnson bar system. How heavy is the original TR-4 flap system? Best regards, Fabricio -------- Fabricio Pereira Engineer / Pilot Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423824#423824 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:17:55 PM PST US From: "William Schertz" Subject: Re: KIS-List: TR-4 Flap Actuation Forces Well -- when I built mine, there was talk about getting more flap travel as being desirable, so I installed the Johnson bar system, but changed the attach point to get a little more travel for the second notch of flaps. Problem is - the force to engage the second notch when flying is more than I can generate, so I only ended up with one notch of flaps. If I were to really pull hard and get it into the second notch, I know that I would not be able to get it out of the setting if I had to do a go-around. I cannot comment on what the force would be with the original attach point, so someone else will have to comment. Bill Schertz -----Original Message----- From: fasilpereira Sent: Monday, May 26, 2014 5:33 PM Subject: KIS-List: TR-4 Flap Actuation Forces I'm starting to work on the TR-4 kit that I bought from Ted Scott. I've removed all the interior that came with the project. The car seats were too heavy for me and the insulation material was flammable.... My project came with an electric actuator partially installed on the Flap System. The parts for the original Johnson bar system was included too. As the Johnson bar system is so light (or the electric actuator so heavy?), I'm thinking on installing the original system (KIS principle).... I'm just worried about the actuation forces on the Johnson bar system. How heavy is the original TR-4 flap system? Best regards, Fabricio -------- Fabricio Pereira Engineer / Pilot Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423824#423824 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:43:35 PM PST US From: jerzy krasinski Subject: Re: KIS-List: TR-4 Flap Actuation Forces I had a similar "problem" , I worried about the forces.=0AI extended the fl ap arm, and in addition, since some complained about the -low deflection -of the flaps, I doubled the the flap deflection angle. All of this was a n unnecessary trouble. Extending the flap angle for more than ~20 degrees d oes not do anything other than steeper approach angle. In a way ts good to have, If you mess up -an approach and arrive too high, no big deal, With flaps at 40 degrees you can loose any altitude. But I think it was not wort h the trouble.=0AAt 40 deg they work as air breaks. I typically use only th e lowest setting of the flaps, which is several degrees=0A-As far as the forces go do not bother with motors, longer arms, hydraulics, pyrotechnic a ctuators etc.=0AThe original arm and the whole flap drive system are simple and good enough.=0A=0AJerzy=0A=0A=0AOn Monday, May 26, 2014 6:19 PM, Willi am Schertz wrote:=0A =0A=0A=0A--> KIS-List message p osted by: "William Schertz" =0A=0AWell -- when I buil t mine, there was talk about getting more flap travel as =0Abeing desirable , so I installed the Johnson bar system, but changed the =0Aattach point to get a little more travel for the second notch of flaps.=0A=0AProblem is - the force to engage the second notch when flying is more than I =0Acan gene rate, so I only ended up with one notch of flaps. If I were to =0Areally pu ll hard and get it into the second notch, I know that I would not =0Abe abl e to get it out of the setting if I had to do a go-around.=0A=0AI cannot co mment on what the force would be with the original attach point, =0Aso some one else will have to comment.=0ABill Schertz=0A=0A-----Original Message--- -- =0AFrom: fasilpereira=0ASent: Monday, May 26, 2014 5:33 PM=0ATo: kis-lis t@matronics.com=0ASubject: KIS-List: TR-4 Flap Actuation Forces=0A=0A--> KI S-List message posted by: "fasilpereira" =0A=0AI' m starting to work on the TR-4 kit that I bought from Ted Scott.=0A=0AI've removed all the interior that came with the project. The car seats were =0A too heavy for me and the insulation material was flammable....=0A=0AMy proj ect came with an electric actuator partially installed on the Flap =0ASyste m. The parts for the original Johnson bar system was included too.=0A=0AAs the Johnson bar system is so light (or the electric actuator so heavy?), =0AI'm thinking on installing the original system (KIS principle)....=0A=0A I'm just worried about the actuation forces on the Johnson bar system. How =0Aheavy is the original TR-4 flap system?=0A=0ABest regards,=0A=0AFabricio =0A=0A--------=0AFabricio Pereira=0AEngineer / Pilot=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead thi s topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423 = ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:57:33 PM PST US Subject: Re: KIS-List: TR-4 Flap Actuation Forces From: Scott Stearns I used a 110 lb force electric actuator with 3 inches of travel on my TR-1 and get about 30 degees of flaps in the air. It is light, maybe 2 pounds. It has internal limit switches so it is simple to instalI. We plan on doing something similar with the TR-4 we are building. Here is what we might use, the 4 inch stroke.... http://www.servocity.com/html/180_lbs__thrust_linear_actuato.html#.U4P5Gtq9KSM The big advantage to electric flaps is that you can narrow the center comsole and get an extra 1.5-2 inches of hip room which made a big difference on my Tr-1. I put all the extra hip room on the pilot side. I am also toying with the idea of installing a split flap on the fuselage belly between the wing flaps that could also be used at high speed as a speed brake. Scott > On May 26, 2014, at 3:33 PM, "fasilpereira" wrote: > > > I'm starting to work on the TR-4 kit that I bought from Ted Scott. > > I've removed all the interior that came with the project. The car seats were too heavy for me and the insulation material was flammable.... > > My project came with an electric actuator partially installed on the Flap System. The parts for the original Johnson bar system was included too. > > As the Johnson bar system is so light (or the electric actuator so heavy?), I'm thinking on installing the original system (KIS principle).... > > I'm just worried about the actuation forces on the Johnson bar system. How heavy is the original TR-4 flap system? > > Best regards, > > Fabricio > > -------- > Fabricio Pereira > Engineer / Pilot > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423824#423824 > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kis-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/KIS-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kis-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kis-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.