KIS-List Digest Archive

Wed 08/06/14


Total Messages Posted: 3



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 07:51 PM - Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure (Mark Kettering)
     2. 08:09 PM - Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure (Galin Hernandez)
     3. 08:13 PM - N819PR Nose Gear Failure (Owen Baker)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 07:51:43 PM PST US
    From: Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
    I am fairly sure that this pin as originally designed was steel. Could the builder have changed this from the steel to aluminum at some time? Do others have an aluminum pin or steel? Mark -----Original Message----- From: Galin Hernandez Sent: Aug 1, 2014 11:03 AM Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure Al; Here is a photo of the "H" bracket where you can see the rear aluminum pin just underneath the fuselage. Can you send a photo of your set up? I wonder if they changed the design and now use 2 steel bolts instead of one aluminum pin. This would really strengthen the point where the "H" bracket connect to the firewall brackets which is what I was thinking with my idea of a steel pin. On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 6:24 AM, Alfred Rosa <fredorosa@gmail.com> wrote: Galin,I'm having a hard time trying to understand what you mean by the rear pin. My H bracket connects to the firewall brackets with two bolts. Al Sent from my iPhone On Jul 31, 2014, at 10:38 PM, Galin Hernandez <galinhdz@gmail.com> wrote: I contacted CATTO Props today but they are all at OSH so if somebody gets to talk to them ask about a 3 bladed composite for a KIS4 with Lycoming O360 180HP engine. :) Now for the ongoing nose gear saga: It turns out the rear pin on the nose gear assembly sheared which caused the gear to collapse. The shear was clean and it was obvious (corrosion) the pin had started breaking well before the failure. It sheared right where the "H" bracket meets the firewall bracket and this explains why the visual inspection done during the annual did not find it. To see the problem happening you have to remove the pin there is no other way to inspect the area. I recommend everyone pull and check their rear "H" bracket pin to see if they are experiencing the same issue or not. If you do please let us know what your find, good or bad, so if there is a trend we can identify it. I plan to pull and inspect the new pin after 50hr or 50 landing (whichever comes first) and at the annual. If I experience a bad shimmy at any time (due to over grease or lack of friction) I will pull and inspect the pin since this places a lot of stress on that specific part of that pin. After a few inspections I will decide if it needs to be inspected on a continuous basis or I just got a bad pin. I am also contemplating having the new pin made from steel instead of aluminum even with the dissimilar metal corrosion issue. Steel or aluminum I will do the above inspections no matter what the pin is eventually made from. On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 4:44 PM, Tim Yoder <ftyoder@yoderbuilt.com> wrote: Galin, You might talk to Scott Stearns, he had a Prince prop on his carbon TR-1C with a 220 HP O-360 and has changed to a different prop. A friend got a three blade Catto for his RV7 that took six months to get but he likes it. The Prince P-Tip is not the most efficient design and I'm sure you know that two blades are more efficient than three, as Bob mentioned, assuming you have ground clearance. I also believe that MT has a mandatory 10 yr. overhaul on it's adjustable props. That cost allot also. Tim From: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Galin Hernandez Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 1:08 PM kis-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure THANKS for the info Bob. Is anybody running a fixed pitch composite 3 bladed prop on a TR-4? I want some basic inputs from actual use before I make a decision. MT, Prince and even Sensenich are high on my list. On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 3:26 PM, Robert Reed <robertr237@att.net> wrote: Galin, Catto didn't have a model number for the prop, he basically did a custom based on engine horsepower, RPM, and airspeed for the aircraft. He also included desired two blade or three blade configuration. I went with three blade out of desire to have quite operation over power performance because of Sharon's migraines. Catto now has the leading edge protection on his props. I looked at Prince and can't remember why I excluded them but it seems that their prop wasn't rated for the Lycoming 360 engine at that time. I also looked at MT Props but they were a bit on the expensive side as I recall. I really liked their electric constant speed option though and would probably have gone with that if money weren't a primary concern. Hope that helps, Bob From: Galin Hernandez <galinhdz@gmail.com> <kis-list@matronics.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 1:08 PM Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure Bob; What model prop did you wind up buying from Catto? Does it have a particular model number/designation? On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Owen Baker <bakerocb@cox.net> wrote: 7/24/2014 Hello Galin, You wrote: .... composite props and rain don't mix very well.... Would you consider a prince propeller with leading edge protection? http://www.princeaircraft.com/ OC ================================= From: Galin Hernandez Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 8:46 AM To: kis-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure Initial check by the mechanic indicates no firewall damage at all, so the actual damage is not a big deal. Engine will be completely overhauled, a new nose gear installed, a new propeller installed, some fiberglass work done and the airplane will be better than before. The airplane is a whole lot stronger than it looks. The rear pin on the landing gear "H" bracket broke letting the entire assembly rotate 180 degrees backwards. Once this happened the main tube held up for a little bit but eventually collapsed under the different stress. I will ask Lyle if he can make the landing gear rear pin a little bigger to better withstand the landing loads. I will definitely look at moving the main gear an inch or two further forward but not sure if it can be done at this stage. The other option is to go with a CATTO composite prop, which is lighter than the SENSENICH aluminum prop I have, but composite props and rain don't mix very well and I fly real IMC. et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matro://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.========= et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List ics.com .matronics.com/contribution This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution D============================================ ist"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List D============================================ //forums.matronics.com D============================================ ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution D============================================ et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution


    Message 2


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    Time: 08:09:33 PM PST US
    From: Galin Hernandez <galinhdz@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
    I checked with the mechanic and the pin is stainless steel, not aluminum. My mistake. After talking with Lyle Hendricks, he said the assemblies have been shipping with AN bolts, not pins, for years now. He also told me that using the "eye bolts" on the "H" bracket instead of just drilling a hole provides a measure of compensation in case the firewall brackets are not perfectly aligned. He said the bolts are rated at some 30,000lbs so the aluminum firewall brackets or the aluminum "H" bracket will fail long before the "eye bolts" do. I ordered the new nose wheel assembly and it should ship by Friday. On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 10:50 PM, Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net> wrote: > > I am fairly sure that this pin as originally designed was steel. Could > the builder have changed this from the steel to aluminum at some time? D o > others have an aluminum pin or steel? > > Mark > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Galin Hernandez > > Sent: Aug 1, 2014 11:03 AM > > To: "kis-list@matronics.com" > > Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure > > > Al; Here is a photo of the "H" bracket where you can see the rear aluminu m > pin just underneath the fuselage. Can you send a photo of your set up? I > wonder if they changed the design and now use 2 steel bolts instead of on e > aluminum pin. This would really strengthen the point where the "H" bracke t > connect to the firewall brackets which is what I was thinking with my ide a > of a steel pin. > > > On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 6:24 AM, Alfred Rosa <fredorosa@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Galin,I'm having a hard time trying to understand what you mean by the > rear pin. My H bracket connects to the firewall brackets with two bolts. > > Al > > Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 31, 2014, at 10:38 PM, Galin Hernandez <galinhdz@gmail.com> wrote: > > > I contacted CATTO Props today but they are all at OSH so if somebody gets > to talk to them ask about a 3 bladed composite for a KIS4 with Lycoming > O360 180HP engine. :) > > Now for the ongoing nose gear saga: > > It turns out the rear pin on the nose gear assembly sheared which caused > the gear to collapse. The shear was clean and it was obvious (corrosion) > the pin had started breaking well before the failure. It sheared right > where the "H" bracket meets the firewall bracket and this explains why th e > visual inspection done during the annual did not find it. To see the > problem happening you have to remove the pin there is no other way to > inspect the area. I recommend everyone pull and check their rear "H" > bracket pin to see if they are experiencing the same issue or not. If you > do please let us know what your find, good or bad, so if there is a trend > we can identify it. > > > I plan to pull and inspect the new pin after 50hr or 50 landing > (whichever comes first) and at the annual. If I experience a bad shimmy a t > any time (due to over grease or lack of friction) I will pull and inspect > the pin since this places a lot of stress on that specific part of that > pin. After a few inspections I will decide if it needs to be inspected on a > continuous basis or I just got a bad pin. I am also contemplating having > the new pin made from steel instead of aluminum even with the dissimilar > metal corrosion issue. Steel or aluminum I will do the above inspections no > matter what the pin is eventually made from. > > > On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 4:44 PM, Tim Yoder <ftyoder@yoderbuilt.com> wrote : > > > Galin, > > You might talk to Scott Stearns, he had a Prince prop on his > carbon TR-1C with a 220 HP O-360 and has changed to a different prop. A > friend got a three blade Catto for his RV7 that took six months to get bu t > he > likes it. The Prince P-Tip is not the most efficient design and I'm sure > you > know that two blades are more efficient than three, as Bob mentioned, > assuming > you have ground clearance. I also believe that MT has a mandatory 10 yr. > overhaul on it's adjustable props. That cost allot also. > > Tim > > > From: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Galin > Hernandez > Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 1:08 PM > To: > kis-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear > Failure > > > THANKS for the info Bob. > > Is anybody running a fixed pitch composite 3 bladed prop on a TR-4? I > want some basic inputs from actual use before I make a decision. MT, > Prince and > even Sensenich are high on my list. > > > On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 3:26 PM, Robert Reed <robertr237@att.net> wrote: > > > Galin, > > > Catto > didn't have a model number for the prop, he basically did a custom base d > on > engine horsepower, RPM, and airspeed for the aircraft. He also include d > desired two blade or three blade configuration. I went with three blad e > out of desire to have quite operation over power performance because of > Sharon's migraines. Catto now has the leading edge protection on his > props. > > > I > looked at Prince and can't remember why I excluded them but it seems th at > their prop wasn't rated for the Lycoming 360 engine at that time. I al so > looked at MT Props but they were a bit on the expensive side as I > recall. I really liked their electric constant speed option though and > would probably have gone with that if money weren't a primary > concern. > > > Hope > that helps, > > > Bob > > > From: Galin Hernandez > <galinhdz@gmail.com> > To: "kis-list@matronics.com" > <kis-list@matronics.com> > Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 1:08 PM > > Subject: Re: KIS-List: > N819PR Nose Gear Failure > > > Bob; What model prop did you wind up buying from Catto? Does it > have a particular model number/designation? > > > On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Owen Baker <bakerocb@cox.net> wrote: > > > 7/24/2014 > > Hello Galin, You wrote: =9C.... composite props and rain don't mix very > well....=9D > > Would you consider a prince propeller with leading edge > protection? > > http://www.princeaircraft.com/ > > OC > > ======================= > > > From: Galin > Hernandez > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 8:46 AM > > To: kis-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear > Failure > > > Initial check by the mechanic indicates no firewall > damage at all, so the actual damage is not a big deal. Engine will be > completely overhauled, a new nose gear installed, a new propeller > installed, > some fiberglass work done and the airplane will be better than before . > The > airplane is a whole lot stronger than it looks. > > The rear pin on the landing gear "H" bracket broke > letting the entire assembly rotate 180 degrees backwards. Once this > happened > the main tube held up for a little bit but eventually collapsed under > the > different stress. I will ask Lyle if he can make the landing gear rea r > pin a > little bigger to better withstand the landing > loads. > > I will definitely look at moving the main gear an > inch or two further forward but not sure if it can be done at this > stage. > The other option is to go with a CATTO composite prop, which is > lighter than > the SENSENICH aluminum prop I have, but composite props and rain don' t > mix > very well and I fly real IMC. > > > et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > http://www.matro://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank" rel="nofoll ow"> > http://forums.========= > > > et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > ://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List > ics.com > .matronics.com/contribution > > > This email is free from viruses and > malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. > > > et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D > ist"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List > > D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D > //forums.matronics.com > > D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D > ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D > > > et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > >


    Message 3


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    Time: 08:13:49 PM PST US
    From: "Owen Baker " <bakerocb@cox.net>
    Subject: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
    8/6/2014 Hello Mark, The pin in kit #116, my KIS TR-1, was steel. I think that aluminum would be entirely unsuitable for this use. OC ======================================================================== From: Mark Kettering Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 10:50 PM Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure I am fairly sure that this pin as originally designed was steel. Could the builder have changed this from the steel to aluminum at some time? Do others have an aluminum pin or steel? Mark =============================================================================== From: Galin Hernandez Sent: Aug 1, 2014 11:03 AM Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure Al; Here is a photo of the "H" bracket where you can see the rear aluminum pin just underneath the fuselage. Can you send a photo of your set up? I wonder if they changed the design and now use 2 steel bolts instead of one aluminum pin. This would really strengthen the point where the "H" bracket connect to the firewall brackets which is what I was thinking with my idea of a steel pin.




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