---------------------------------------------------------- KIS-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 04/14/16: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:18 PM - Re: TR-1 Nose Gear (Owen Baker) 2. 12:59 PM - Re: Re: TR-1 Nose Gear (M Ketteing) 3. 02:15 PM - Re: Re: TR-1 Nose Gear (jerzy krasinski) 4. 02:56 PM - Re: Re: TR-1 Nose Gear (Graham Brighton) 5. 07:56 PM - Re: Re: TR-1 Nose Gear (M Ketteing) 6. 08:06 PM - Re: Re: TR-1 Nose Gear (Owen Baker) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:18:52 PM PST US From: "Owen Baker " Subject: KIS-List: Re: TR-1 Nose Gear 4/14/2016 Hello Mark, Thanks for weighing in on this subject. You wrote: 1) =9CI am sorry to say the secrets of the nose gear spring were only known by Vance.=9D The KIS family lost a true friend when he passed. I wonder if any one in his family could help. I=99ll try an email address from his web site. http://www.oocities.org/vjaqua/ 2) =9CI do have an engineer who has access to test equipment that can determine the parameters of the spring.=9D That is one approach. Another is to assume that: a) the spring was a standard catalog item (maybe from McMaster Carr?); b) that same catalog item is still available; and c) by just using the spring dimensions Lyle would be able to identify and order a duplicate spring. A picture of the top of the spring which is installed in my plane is attached. 3) =9CIf I can get somebody to take their TR-1 nose gear apart and send me the spring I can send it to the engineer and he will test it.=9D Or, if somebody could just remove their KIS TR-1 nose gear coil spring (hopefully from a non flying airplane) and provide some accurate dimensions we could identify it that way. See my related and redacted April 09, 2016 9:55 AM email copied below. OC ======= From: Mark Trickel Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 8:51 AM Cc: HENDRICKS LYLE ; ERSTAD HANS CHRISTIAN ; MILLER KEITH ; Kettering Mark ; Melyon Solly Subject: Re: Fw: TR-1 Nose Gear KIS TR-1 nose gear spring I am sorry to say the secrets of the nose gear spring were only known by Vance. I do have an engineer who has access to test equipment that can determine the parameters of the spring. He has already do so for the TR-4 spring set (this gear uses two different springs one heavy duty and one medium duty. If I can get somebody to take their TR-1 nose gear apart and send me the spring I can send it to the engineer and he will test it. I have sent an email to him to make sure he will do this for us. Regards, Mark Trickel =========== From: Owen Baker Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2016 9:55 AM Subject: UK TR-1 Nose Gear 4/9/2016 Hello Lyle, I went out to the hangar yesterday, partially disassembled my airplane and took some nose gear related photos and measurements. I'd like to take another stab at answering your original April 06, 2016 12:49 PM email (copied below). You wrote: 1) "My question to you is re: the upper spring." Selecting the McMaster Carr coil spring that matches the one in my airplane is not as explicit as I would like. First off, my previous estimate of the uncompressed spring length of 12 inches, based on appearance in the attached 429 KB photo, was wrong. The measured length on my nose gear coil spring (as installed) is very near 8 inches. The measured outside diameter of my coil spring (using a C clamp as a micrometer) is very close to 2 inches. There are two 8 inch long coil springs in the McM C catalog that nearly fit that 2 inch OD dimension: 96485K164 at 2.187 inches OD and 96485K386 at 1.917 inches OD. So I can not discriminate between those two P/N solely on OD. See here: http://www.mcmaster.com/#compression-springs/=11wlo5u Wire diameter does not appear to be a good discriminator for two reasons: a) the wire in my spring is not round, but is flattened on the top and bottom; and b) accurate wire diameter measurement access to my spring is difficult. For both of those reasons an accurate wire diameter measurement is difficult. In the catalog P/N 164 has a wire diameter of 0.25 and P/N 386 has a wire diameter of 0.312. My estimate favors P/N 164. Regarding max load: P/N 164 has a max load of 274 pounds and P/N 386 has a max load of 597 pounds. My plane has an empty weight of 242 pounds on the nose gear so a max load rating of 274 seems a bit marginal to me, but then I don't know what the criteria for max load is (fully compress the spring or ???). 597 pounds seems very stiff to me. Maybe you can discriminate between the two P/N's by which spring will best fit over the compression rod. P/N 164 should have a calculated inner diameter of 1.687 inches and P/N 386 should have an inner diameter of 1.293 inches. My choice between the two McM C springs would be P/N 164. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx BIG SKIP xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx OC ==================== From: Lyle Hendricks Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 12:49 PM Subject: TR-1 Nose Gear Hello OC, How have you been? I'm currently working on a TR-1 nose gear project for a gentleman who has suffered a failure of the original design. With approval from the UK LAA, we hope to get him and his plane back in the air. My question to you is re: the upper spring. I know Rich used McMaster Carr as a supplier for the spring, however, I am unable to identify the part number of the spring. As I recall, you may have had to purchase one of these springs when we made a new nose gear assy for you a while back. Any info about the spring and the rubber washers/bushings which surround it would be greatly appreciated as I am attempting to supply a complete, ready to install unit to his mechanic. I=99d also like to confirm the length of the upper tube (7.875=9D) and the overall length of the compression rod including threaded portion (18.093=9D) if you have the means to do so without too much trouble. Do you recall having any adjustment or modification issues while installing your nose gear? Thank you for your help, Lyle Hendricks Hendricks Mfg., Inc. 208-476-7740 http://www.HendricksMfg.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:59:39 PM PST US From: M Ketteing Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: TR-1 Nose Gear These are standard die springs from McMaster and follow the Raymond die springs color code. http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-die-springs/=11zcvvg but check the size! -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 4/14/16, Owen Baker wrote: Subject: KIS-List: Re: TR-1 Nose Gear To: "Mark Trickel" , "KIS-LIST MATRONICS" , hagerson@pacbell.net Date: Thursday, April 14, 2016, 3:17 PM 4/14/2016 Hello Mark, Thanks for weighing in on this subject. You wrote: 1) I am sorry to say the secrets of the nose gear spring were only known by Vance. The KIS family lost a true friend when he passed. I wonder if any one in his family could help. Ill try an email address from his web site. http://www.oocities.org/vjaqua/ 2) I do have an engineer who has access to test equipment that can determine the parameters of the spring. That is one approach. Another is to assume that: a) the spring was a standard catalog item (maybe from McMaster Carr?); b) that same catalog item is still available; and c) by just using the spring dimensions Lyle would be able to identify and order a duplicate spring. A picture of the top of the spring which is installed in my plane is attached. 3) If I can get somebody to take their TR-1 nose gear apart and send me the spring I can send it to the engineer and he will test it. Or, if somebody could just remove their KIS TR-1 nose gear coil spring (hopefully from a non flying airplane) and provide some accurate dimensions we could identify it that way. See my related and redacted April 09, 2016 9:55 AM email copied below. OC ================================ From: Mark Trickel Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 8:51 AM To: Owen Baker Cc: HENDRICKS LYLE ; ERSTAD HANS CHRISTIAN ; MILLER KEITH ; Kettering Mark ; Melyon Solly Subject: Re: Fw: TR-1 Nose Gear KIS TR-1 nose gear spring I am sorry to say the secrets of the nose gear spring were only known by Vance. I do have an engineer who has access to test equipment that can determine the parameters of the spring. He has already do so for the TR-4 spring set (this gear uses two different springs one heavy duty and one medium duty. If I can get somebody to take their TR-1 nose gear apart and send me the spring I can send it to the engineer and he will test it. I have sent an email to him to make sure he will do this for us. Regards, Mark Trickel ==================================== From: Owen Baker Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2016 9:55 AM To: HENDRICKS LYLE Subject: UK TR-1 Nose Gear 4/9/2016 Hello Lyle, I went out to the hangar yesterday, partially disassembled my airplane and took some nose gear related photos and measurements. I'd like to take another stab at answering your original April 06, 2016 12:49 PM email (copied below). You wrote: 1) "My question to you is re: the upper spring." Selecting the McMaster Carr coil spring that matches the one in my airplane is not as explicit as I would like. First off, my previous estimate of the uncompressed spring length of 12 inches, based on appearance in the attached 429 KB photo, was wrong. The measured length on my nose gear coil spring (as installed) is very near 8 inches. The measured outside diameter of my coil spring (using a C clamp as a micrometer) is very close to 2 inches. There are two 8 inch long coil springs in the McM C catalog that nearly fit that 2 inch OD dimension: 96485K164 at 2.187 inches OD and 96485K386 at 1.917 inches OD. So I can not discriminate between those two P/N solely on OD. See here: http://www.mcmaster.com/#compression-springs/=11wlo5u Wire diameter does not appear to be a good discriminator for two reasons: a) the wire in my spring is not round, but is flattened on the top and bottom; and b) accurate wire diameter measurement access to my spring is difficult. For both of those reasons an accurate wire diameter measurement is difficult. In the catalog P/N 164 has a wire diameter of 0.25 and P/N 386 has a wire diameter of 0.312. My estimate favors P/N 164. Regarding max load: P/N 164 has a max load of 274 pounds and P/N 386 has a max load of 597 pounds. My plane has an empty weight of 242 pounds on the nose gear so a max load rating of 274 seems a bit marginal to me, but then I don't know what the criteria for max load is (fully compress the spring or ???). 597 pounds seems very stiff to me. Maybe you can discriminate between the two P/N's by which spring will best fit over the compression rod. P/N 164 should have a calculated inner diameter of 1.687 inches and P/N 386 should have an inner diameter of 1.293 inches. My choice between the two McM C springs would be P/N 164. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx BIG SKIP xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx OC ============================================= From: Lyle Hendricks Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 12:49 PM To: bakerocb@cox.net Subject: TR-1 Nose Gear Hello OC, How have you been? I'm currently working on a TR-1 nose gear project for a gentleman who has suffered a failure of the original design. With approval from the UK LAA, we hope to get him and his plane back in the air. My question to you is re: the upper spring. I know Rich used McMaster Carr as a supplier for the spring, however, I am unable to identify the part number of the spring. As I recall, you may have had to purchase one of these springs when we made a new nose gear assy for you a while back. Any info about the spring and the rubber washers/bushings which surround it would be greatly appreciated as I am attempting to supply a complete, ready to install unit to his mechanic. Id also like to confirm the length of the upper tube (7.875) and the overall length of the compression rod including threaded portion (18.093) if you have the means to do so without too much trouble. Do you recall having any adjustment or modification issues while installing your nose gear? Thank you for your help, Lyle Hendricks Hendricks Mfg., Inc. 208-476-7740 http://www.HendricksMfg.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:15:53 PM PST US From: jerzy krasinski Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: TR-1 Nose Gear Hello, I have in my barn the old style steerable front gear for KIS Cruiser with t he springs.I hope its not rusted, I have to check it.If anybody has an inte rest in that gear or just the springs please let me know. Jerzy Krasinski =C2- =C2- jerzy_krasinski@sbcglobal.net On Thursday, April 14, 2016 2:17 PM, Owen Baker wrot e: 4/14/2016=C2-Hello Mark, Thanks for weighing in on this subject. You wro te:=C2-1) =9CI am sorry to say the secrets of the nose gear spring were only known by Vance.=9D=C2-The KIS family lost a true friend w hen he passed. I wonder if any one in his family could help. I=99ll t ry an email address from his web site. http://www.oocities.org/vjaqua/=C2 -2) =9CI do have an engineer who has access to test equipment that can determine the parameters of the spring.=9D=C2-That is one appro ach. Another is to assume that: a) the spring was a standard catalog item ( maybe from McMaster Carr?); b) that same catalog item is still available; a nd c) by just using the spring dimensions Lyle would be able to identify an d order a duplicate spring. A picture of the top of the spring which is ins talled in my plane is attached.=C2-3) =9CIf I can get somebody to t ake their TR-1 nose gear apart and send me the spring I can send it to the engineer and he will test it.=9D=C2-Or, if somebody could just remo ve their KIS TR-1 nose gear coil spring (hopefully from a non flying airpla ne) and provide some accurate dimensions we could identify it that way. See my related and redacted April 09, 2016 9:55 AM email copied below.=C2-OC =C2-======================= ===========C2-=C2-From: Mark Trickel Sent: Thursday , April 14, 2016 8:51 AMTo: Owen Baker Cc: HENDRICKS LYLE ; ERSTAD HANS CHR ISTIAN ; MILLER KEITH ; Kettering Mark ; Melyon Solly Subject: Re: Fw: TR-1 Nose Gear=C2-KIS TR-1 nose gear spring=C2-I am sorry to say the secret s of the nose gear spring were only known by Vance. I do have an engineer w ho has access to test equipment that can determine the parameters of the sp ring. He has already do so for the TR-4 spring set (this gear uses two diff erent springs one heavy duty and one medium duty. If I can get somebody to take their TR-1 nose gear apart and send me the spring I can send it to the engineer and he will test it. I have sent an email to him to make sure he will do this for us.=C2-Regards,Mark Trickel=C2-======= ======C2-From: Owen Baker=C2- Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2016 9:55 AM To: HENDRICKS LYLE Subject: UK TR-1 Nose Gear =C2-4/9/2016=C2-H ello Lyle, I went out to the hangar yesterday, partially disassembled my ai rplane and took somenose gear related photos and measurements. I'd like to take another stab at answering your originalApril 06, 2016 12:49 PM email ( copied below). You wrote:=C2-1) "My question to you is re: the upper spri ng."=C2-Selecting the McMaster Carr coil spring that matches the one in m y airplane is not as explicit as I would like.First off, my previous estima te of the uncompressed spring length of 12 inches, based on appearance in t heattached 429 KB photo, was wrong. The measured length on my nose gear coi l spring (as installed) isvery near 8 inches.=C2-The measured outside dia meter of my coil spring (using a C clamp as a micrometer) is very close to 2 inches. Thereare two 8 inch long coil springs in the McM C catalog that n early fit that 2 inch OD dimension: 96485K164 at 2.187 inches ODand 96485K3 86 at 1.917 inches OD. So I can not discriminate between those two P/N sole ly on OD. See here:=C2-http://www.mcmaster.com/#compression-springs/=11 wlo5u=C2-Wire diameter does not appear to be a good discriminator for two reasons: a) the wire in my spring is not round, butis flattened on the top and bottom; and b) accurate wire diameter measurement access to my spring is difficult. For both of thosereasons an accurate wire diameter measuremen t is difficult. In the catalog P/N 164 has a wire diameter of 0.25 and P/N 386 hasa wire diameter of 0.312. My estimate favors P/N 164.=C2-Regarding max load: P/N 164 has a max load of 274 pounds and P/N 386 has a max load of 597 pounds. My plane has anempty weight of 242 pounds on the nose gear s o a max load rating of 274 seems a bit marginal to me, but then I don't kno wwhat the criteria for max load is (fully compress the spring or ???). 597 pounds seems very stiff to me.=C2-Maybe you can discriminate between the two P/N's by which spring will best fit over the compression rod. P/N 164 s hould have acalculated inner diameter of 1.687 inches and P/N 386 should ha ve an inner diameter of 1.293 inches.=C2-My choice between the two McM C springs would be P/N 164.=C2-=C2-xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx=C2-=C2- BIG SK IP=C2- xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx=C2-=C2-OC=C2-= =================== From: Lyle Hendricks Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 12:49 PM Subject: TR-1 Nose Gear Hello OC, How have you been? I'm currently working on a TR-1 nose gear proj ect for a gentleman who has suffered a failure of the original design. With approval from the UK LAA, we hope to get him and his plane back in the air . My question to you is re: the upper spring. I know Rich used McMaster Car r as a supplier for the spring, however, I am unable to identify the part n umber of the spring. As I recall, you may have had to purchase one of these springs when we made a new nose gear assy for you a while back. Any info a bout the spring and the rubber washers/bushings which surround it would be greatly appreciated as I am attempting to supply a complete, ready to insta ll unit to his mechanic. I=99d also like to confirm the length of the upper tube (7.875=9D) and the overall length of the compression rod including threaded portion (18.093=9D) if you have the means to do so without too much trouble. Do you recall having any adjustment or modificat ion issues while installing your nose gear? Thank you for your help, Lyle Hendricks Hendricks Mfg., Inc. 208-476-7740 http://www.HendricksMfg.com =C2- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:56:04 PM PST US From: "Graham Brighton" Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: TR-1 Nose Gear Hi Guys, My TR1 Nose gear Leg is disassembled and is at the Hanger .... I'll try to get there tomorrow and check physical Dimensions and report back .., Cheers Graham . .. From: Owen Baker Sent: Friday, April 15, 2016 5:17 AM Subject: KIS-List: Re: TR-1 Nose Gear 4/14/2016 Hello Mark, Thanks for weighing in on this subject. You wrote: 1) =9CI am sorry to say the secrets of the nose gear spring were only known by Vance.=9D The KIS family lost a true friend when he passed. I wonder if any one in his family could help. I=99ll try an email address from his web site. http://www.oocities.org/vjaqua/ 2) =9CI do have an engineer who has access to test equipment that can determine the parameters of the spring.=9D That is one approach. Another is to assume that: a) the spring was a standard catalog item (maybe from McMaster Carr?); b) that same catalog item is still available; and c) by just using the spring dimensions Lyle would be able to identify and order a duplicate spring. A picture of the top of the spring which is installed in my plane is attached. 3) =9CIf I can get somebody to take their TR-1 nose gear apart and send me the spring I can send it to the engineer and he will test it.=9D Or, if somebody could just remove their KIS TR-1 nose gear coil spring (hopefully from a non flying airplane) and provide some accurate dimensions we could identify it that way. See my related and redacted April 09, 2016 9:55 AM email copied below. OC ======= From: Mark Trickel Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 8:51 AM Cc: HENDRICKS LYLE ; ERSTAD HANS CHRISTIAN ; MILLER KEITH ; Kettering Mark ; Melyon Solly Subject: Re: Fw: TR-1 Nose Gear KIS TR-1 nose gear spring I am sorry to say the secrets of the nose gear spring were only known by Vance. I do have an engineer who has access to test equipment that can determine the parameters of the spring. He has already do so for the TR-4 spring set (this gear uses two different springs one heavy duty and one medium duty. If I can get somebody to take their TR-1 nose gear apart and send me the spring I can send it to the engineer and he will test it. I have sent an email to him to make sure he will do this for us. Regards, Mark Trickel =========== From: Owen Baker Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2016 9:55 AM Subject: UK TR-1 Nose Gear 4/9/2016 Hello Lyle, I went out to the hangar yesterday, partially disassembled my airplane and took some nose gear related photos and measurements. I'd like to take another stab at answering your original April 06, 2016 12:49 PM email (copied below). You wrote: 1) "My question to you is re: the upper spring." Selecting the McMaster Carr coil spring that matches the one in my airplane is not as explicit as I would like. First off, my previous estimate of the uncompressed spring length of 12 inches, based on appearance in the attached 429 KB photo, was wrong. The measured length on my nose gear coil spring (as installed) is very near 8 inches. The measured outside diameter of my coil spring (using a C clamp as a micrometer) is very close to 2 inches. There are two 8 inch long coil springs in the McM C catalog that nearly fit that 2 inch OD dimension: 96485K164 at 2.187 inches OD and 96485K386 at 1.917 inches OD. So I can not discriminate between those two P/N solely on OD. See here: http://www.mcmaster.com/#compression-springs/=11wlo5u Wire diameter does not appear to be a good discriminator for two reasons: a) the wire in my spring is not round, but is flattened on the top and bottom; and b) accurate wire diameter measurement access to my spring is difficult. For both of those reasons an accurate wire diameter measurement is difficult. In the catalog P/N 164 has a wire diameter of 0.25 and P/N 386 has a wire diameter of 0.312. My estimate favors P/N 164. Regarding max load: P/N 164 has a max load of 274 pounds and P/N 386 has a max load of 597 pounds. My plane has an empty weight of 242 pounds on the nose gear so a max load rating of 274 seems a bit marginal to me, but then I don't know what the criteria for max load is (fully compress the spring or ???). 597 pounds seems very stiff to me. Maybe you can discriminate between the two P/N's by which spring will best fit over the compression rod. P/N 164 should have a calculated inner diameter of 1.687 inches and P/N 386 should have an inner diameter of 1.293 inches. My choice between the two McM C springs would be P/N 164. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx BIG SKIP xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx OC ==================== From: Lyle Hendricks Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 12:49 PM Subject: TR-1 Nose Gear Hello OC, How have you been? I'm currently working on a TR-1 nose gear project for a gentleman who has suffered a failure of the original design. With approval from the UK LAA, we hope to get him and his plane back in the air. My question to you is re: the upper spring. I know Rich used McMaster Carr as a supplier for the spring, however, I am unable to identify the part number of the spring. As I recall, you may have had to purchase one of these springs when we made a new nose gear assy for you a while back. Any info about the spring and the rubber washers/bushings which surround it would be greatly appreciated as I am attempting to supply a complete, ready to install unit to his mechanic. I=99d also like to confirm the length of the upper tube (7.875=9D) and the overall length of the compression rod including threaded portion (18.093=9D) if you have the means to do so without too much trouble. Do you recall having any adjustment or modification issues while installing your nose gear? Thank you for your help, Lyle Hendricks Hendricks Mfg., Inc. 208-476-7740 http://www.HendricksMfg.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:56:31 PM PST US From: M Ketteing Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: TR-1 Nose Gear >From my old calculations for the TR-1 nose gear it looks like the desired spring rate is 329.7 lbs/in. The McMaster part number 9584K99, http://www.mcmaster.com/#9584k99/=11zi7a8 looks like it meets this number nicely, the size OC provided and the color in the picture OC provided. It also meets the color and size on my TR-1 nose gear. Mark K -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 4/14/16, jerzy krasinski wrote: Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: TR-1 Nose Gear To: "kis-list@matronics.com" Date: Thursday, April 14, 2016, 5:15 PM Hello, I have in my barn the old style steerable front gear for KIS Cruiser with the springs.I hope its not rusted, I have to check it.If anybody has an interest in that gear or just the springs please let me know. Jerzy Krasinski jerzy_krasinski@sbcglobal.net On Thursday, April 14, 2016 2:17 PM, Owen Baker wrote: 4/14/2016 Hello Mark, Thanks for weighing in on this subject. You wrote: 1) I am sorry to say the secrets of the nose gear spring were only known by Vance. The KIS family lost a true friend when he passed. I wonder if any one in his family could help. Ill try an email address from his web site. http://www.oocities.org/vjaqua/ 2) I do have an engineer who has access to test equipment that can determine the parameters of the spring. That is one approach. Another is to assume that: a) the spring was a standard catalog item (maybe from McMaster Carr?); b) that same catalog item is still available; and c) by just using the spring dimensions Lyle would be able to identify and order a duplicate spring. A picture of the top of the spring which is installed in my plane is attached. 3) If I can get somebody to take their TR-1 nose gear apart and send me the spring I can send it to the engineer and he will test it. Or, if somebody could just remove their KIS TR-1 nose gear coil spring (hopefully from a non flying airplane) and provide some accurate dimensions we could identify it that way. See my related and redacted April 09, 2016 9:55 AM email copied below. OC ================================ From: Mark Trickel Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 8:51 AM To: Owen Baker Cc: HENDRICKS LYLE ; ERSTAD HANS CHRISTIAN ; MILLER KEITH ; Kettering Mark ; Melyon Solly Subject: Re: Fw: TR-1 Nose Gear KIS TR-1 nose gear spring I am sorry to say the secrets of the nose gear spring were only known by Vance. I do have an engineer who has access to test equipment that can determine the parameters of the spring. He has already do so for the TR-4 spring set (this gear uses two different springs one heavy duty and one medium duty. If I can get somebody to take their TR-1 nose gear apart and send me the spring I can send it to the engineer and he will test it. I have sent an email to him to make sure he will do this for us. Regards, Mark Trickel ==================================== From: Owen Baker Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2016 9:55 AM To: HENDRICKS LYLE Subject: UK TR-1 Nose Gear 4/9/2016 Hello Lyle, I went out to the hangar yesterday, partially disassembled my airplane and took some nose gear related photos and measurements. I'd like to take another stab at answering your original April 06, 2016 12:49 PM email (copied below). You wrote: 1) "My question to you is re: the upper spring." Selecting the McMaster Carr coil spring that matches the one in my airplane is not as explicit as I would like. First off, my previous estimate of the uncompressed spring length of 12 inches, based on appearance in the attached 429 KB photo, was wrong. The measured length on my nose gear coil spring (as installed) is very near 8 inches. The measured outside diameter of my coil spring (using a C clamp as a micrometer) is very close to 2 inches. There are two 8 inch long coil springs in the McM C catalog that nearly fit that 2 inch OD dimension: 96485K164 at 2.187 inches OD and 96485K386 at 1.917 inches OD. So I can not discriminate between those two P/N solely on OD. See here: http://www.mcmaster.com/#compression-springs/=11wlo5u Wire diameter does not appear to be a good discriminator for two reasons: a) the wire in my spring is not round, but is flattened on the top and bottom; and b) accurate wire diameter measurement access to my spring is difficult. For both of those reasons an accurate wire diameter measurement is difficult. In the catalog P/N 164 has a wire diameter of 0.25 and P/N 386 has a wire diameter of 0.312. My estimate favors P/N 164. Regarding max load: P/N 164 has a max load of 274 pounds and P/N 386 has a max load of 597 pounds. My plane has an empty weight of 242 pounds on the nose gear so a max load rating of 274 seems a bit marginal to me, but then I don't know what the criteria for max load is (fully compress the spring or ???). 597 pounds seems very stiff to me. Maybe you can discriminate between the two P/N's by which spring will best fit over the compression rod. P/N 164 should have a calculated inner diameter of 1.687 inches and P/N 386 should have an inner diameter of 1.293 inches. My choice between the two McM C springs would be P/N 164. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx BIG SKIP xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx OC ============================================= From: Lyle Hendricks Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 12:49 PM To: bakerocb@cox.net Subject: TR-1 Nose Gear Hello OC, How have you been? I'm currently working on a TR-1 nose gear project for a gentleman who has suffered a failure of the original design. With approval from the UK LAA, we hope to get him and his plane back in the air. My question to you is re: the upper spring. I know Rich used McMaster Carr as a supplier for the spring, however, I am unable to identify the part number of the spring. As I recall, you may have had to purchase one of these springs when we made a new nose gear assy for you a while back. Any info about the spring and the rubber washers/bushings which surround it would be greatly appreciated as I am attempting to supply a complete, ready to install unit to his mechanic. Id also like to confirm the length of the upper tube (7.875) and the overall length of the compression rod including threaded portion (18.093) if you have the means to do so without too much trouble. Do you recall having any adjustment or modification issues while installing your nose gear? Thank you for your help, Lyle Hendricks Hendricks Mfg., Inc. 208-476-7740 http://www.HendricksMfg.com ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:06:23 PM PST US From: "Owen Baker " Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: TR-1 Nose Gear 4/14/2016 Hello Graham, Thanks for the quick response. A picture or two would be great also. OC PS: We are also very curious as to how long the threaded portion at the bottom of the lower vertical stub is and how the threaded portion is attached to the larger diameter stub material immediately above the threaded portion. Please see the attached picture. bakerocb at cox.net ================= From: Graham Brighton Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 5:55 PM Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: TR-1 Nose Gear Hi Guys, My TR1 Nose gear Leg is disassembled and is at the Hanger .... I'll try to get there tomorrow and check physical Dimensions and report back .., Cheers Graham . ===================. From: Owen Baker Sent: Friday, April 15, 2016 5:17 AM Subject: KIS-List: Re: TR-1 Nose Gear 4/14/2016 Hello Mark, Thanks for weighing in on this subject. You wrote: 1) =9CI am sorry to say the secrets of the nose gear spring were only known by Vance.=9D The KIS family lost a true friend when he passed. I wonder if any one in his family could help. I=99ll try an email address from his web site. http://www.oocities.org/vjaqua/ 2) =9CI do have an engineer who has access to test equipment that can determine the parameters of the spring.=9D That is one approach. Another is to assume that: a) the spring was a standard catalog item (maybe from McMaster Carr?); b) that same catalog item is still available; and c) by just using the spring dimensions Lyle would be able to identify and order a duplicate spring. A picture of the top of the spring which is installed in my plane is attached. 3) =9CIf I can get somebody to take their TR-1 nose gear apart and send me the spring I can send it to the engineer and he will test it.=9D Or, if somebody could just remove their KIS TR-1 nose gear coil spring (hopefully from a non flying airplane) and provide some accurate dimensions we could identify it that way. See my related and redacted April 09, 2016 9:55 AM email copied below. 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