---------------------------------------------------------- KIS-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 04/15/16: 5 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:18 AM - TR1 Nose Gear Spring (Graham Brighton) 2. 12:24 AM - TR1 Nose Gear (Graham Brighton) 3. 06:47 AM - Re: TR-1 Nose Gear (Mark Trickel) 4. 07:13 PM - Re: KIS-TR1 (Robert Reed) 5. 07:23 PM - Main Gear Attach Points Repair (Galin Hernandez) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:18:39 AM PST US Subject: KIS-List: TR1 Nose Gear Spring From: Graham Brighton Sent from my iPad ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:24:44 AM PST US Subject: KIS-List: TR1 Nose Gear From: Graham Brighton Hi Guys ... Hope the pics help .. :) Graham . Sent from my iPad ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:29 AM PST US Subject: KIS-List: Re: TR-1 Nose Gear From: Mark Trickel Lyle - really miss the old guard it has been difficult to reverse engineer some of the issues that have come up. OC - Vance had 2 sons. One is an Academy award winner for his work in movie special effects and he is still in the Oxnard area. The second son is in the mid south and he is a great smith - he loves to hammer out knives and other blades. If you wish to contact either I have there email addresses in my files I just have to track it down. Also note I have now secured Vance old domain kisaircraft.com and I am in the process of building a new KIS website. I will eventually have all of Vances old pages up on the new site. The red stipe indicates a heavy duty die spring. Dimensions are important but you must also know the spring rate - going by size alone will not work. We tired that on the TR-4 spring and McMaster and Carr did not even have any spring the same sizes that we found inside the gear. I believe the springs were sourced somewhere else. I asked Mark Kettering for his educated guess (or expert engineering advice) and he was pretty damn close to what came out of the TR-4 gear but not totally right on. His pick was and exact match for one of the springs but the second spring was about half the spring rate as the first. One spring has the red stripe, one had a blue strip (for medium duty). My engineer buddy matched the spring with currently available spring form a company that specializes in these types of spring, not M&C the catch all hardware supplier. M&C gets stock from many many suppliers and you cannot be guaranteed your going to get the same thing every time you order. Using two different spring is really not a good thing because one will be fully compressed before the other kicks in but the combination seems to work. Fully compressing a spring exceeds normal use of a spring which should remain in the range of a 20% compression (realyy I do not know about spring but my spring guy does! My spring guy says the spring rate is the life blood of a spring and if we have a sample we can test there is not reason to guess. If someone will give me the spring I can have it tested and back within a 2 to 3 weeks. KIS TR-1 balance - Mark K. advises that the nose gear should only have around 10% of the total aircraft weight on it and I'm guessing like under 200 lbs. max. On Thu, Apr 14, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Owen Baker wrote: > 4/14/2016 > > Hello Mark, Thanks for weighing in on this subject. You wrote: > > 1) =9CI am sorry to say the secrets of the nose gear spring were on ly known > by Vance.=9D > > The KIS family lost a true friend when he passed. I wonder if any one in > his family could help. I=99ll try an email address from his web sit e. > http://www.oocities.org/vjaqua/ > > 2) =9CI do have an engineer who has access to test equipment that c an > determine the parameters of the spring.=9D > > That is one approach. Another is to assume that: a) the spring was a > standard catalog item (maybe from McMaster Carr?); b) that same catalog > item is still available; and c) by just using the spring dimensions Lyle > would be able to identify and order a duplicate spring. A picture of the > top of the spring which is installed in my plane is attached. > > 3) =9CIf I can get somebody to take their TR-1 nose gear apart and send me > the spring I can send it to the engineer and he will test it.=9D > > Or, if somebody could just remove their KIS TR-1 nose gear coil spring > (hopefully from a non flying airplane) and provide some accurate dimensio ns > we could identify it that way. See my related and redacted April 09, 2016 > 9:55 AM email copied below. > > OC > > ======================== ======== > > > *From:* Mark Trickel > *Sent:* Thursday, April 14, 2016 8:51 AM > *To:* Owen Baker > *Cc:* HENDRICKS LYLE ; ERSTAD HANS CHRISTIAN > ; MILLER KEITH ; Kettering > Mark ; Melyon Solly > *Subject:* Re: Fw: TR-1 Nose Gear > > KIS TR-1 nose gear spring > > I am sorry to say the secrets of the nose gear spring were only known by > Vance. I do have an engineer who has access to test equipment that can > determine the parameters of the spring. He has already do so for the TR-4 > spring set (this gear uses two different springs one heavy duty and one > medium duty. If I can get somebody to take their TR-1 nose gear apart and > send me the spring I can send it to the engineer and he will test it. I > have sent an email to him to make sure he will do this for us. > > Regards, > Mark Trickel > > ======================== ============ > > From: Owen Baker > Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2016 9:55 AM > To: HENDRICKS LYLE > Subject: UK TR-1 Nose Gear > > 4/9/2016 > > Hello Lyle, I went out to the hangar yesterday, partially disassembled my > airplane and took some > nose gear related photos and measurements. I'd like to take another stab > at > answering your original > April 06, 2016 12:49 PM email (copied below). You wrote: > > 1) "My question to you is re: the upper spring." > > Selecting the McMaster Carr coil spring that matches the one in my > airplane > is not as explicit as I would like. > First off, my previous estimate of the uncompressed spring length of 12 > inches, based on appearance in the > attached 429 KB photo, was wrong. The measured length on my nose gear coi l > spring (as installed) is > very near 8 inches. > > The measured outside diameter of my coil spring (using a C clamp as a > micrometer) is very close to 2 inches. There > are two 8 inch long coil springs in the McM C catalog that nearly fit tha t > 2 > inch OD dimension: 96485K164 at 2.187 inches OD > and 96485K386 at 1.917 inches OD. So I can not discriminate between those > two P/N solely on OD. See here: > > http://www.mcmaster.com/#compression-springs/=11wlo5u > > Wire diameter does not appear to be a good discriminator for two reasons: > a) > the wire in my spring is not round, but > is flattened on the top and bottom; and b) accurate wire diameter > measurement access to my spring is difficult. For both of those > reasons an accurate wire diameter measurement is difficult. In the catalo g > P/N 164 has a wire diameter of 0.25 and P/N 386 has > a wire diameter of 0.312. My estimate favors P/N 164. > > Regarding max load: P/N 164 has a max load of 274 pounds and P/N 386 has a > max load of 597 pounds. My plane has an > empty weight of 242 pounds on the nose gear so a max load rating of 274 > seems a bit marginal to me, but then I don't know > what the criteria for max load is (fully compress the spring or ???). 597 > pounds seems very stiff to me. > > Maybe you can discriminate between the two P/N's by which spring will bes t > fit over the compression rod. P/N 164 should have a > calculated inner diameter of 1.687 inches and P/N 386 should have an inne r > diameter of 1.293 inches. > > My choice between the two McM C springs would be P/N 164. > > > xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx BIG SKIP xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > OC > > ======================== ===================== > > From: Lyle Hendricks > Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 12:49 PM > To: bakerocb@cox.net > Subject: TR-1 Nose Gear > > Hello OC, How have you been? I'm currently working on a TR-1 nose gear > project for a gentleman who has suffered a failure of the original design .. > With approval from the UK LAA, we hope to get him and his plane back in t he > air. My question to you is re: the upper spring. I know Rich used McMaste r > Carr as a supplier for the spring, however, I am unable to identify the > part number of the spring. As I recall, you may have had to purchase one of > these springs when we made a new nose gear assy for you a while back. Any > info about the spring and the rubber washers/bushings which surround it > would be greatly appreciated as I am attempting to supply a complete, rea dy > to install unit to his mechanic. I=99d also like to confirm the len gth of the > upper tube (7.875=9D) and the overall length of the compression rod including > threaded portion (18.093=9D) if you have the means to do so without too much > trouble. Do you recall having any adjustment or modification issues while > installing your nose gear? > > Thank you for your help, > > Lyle Hendricks > > Hendricks Mfg., Inc. > > 208-476-7740 > > http://www.HendricksMfg.com > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:13:56 PM PST US Subject: KIS-List: Re: KIS-TR1 From: Robert Reed https://www.facebook.com/DiscoveryChurchFishers/posts/10207298457397842 Bob Reed Sent from my iPhone ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:23:16 PM PST US From: Galin Hernandez Subject: KIS-List: Main Gear Attach Points Repair Mark K, Mark T; Here is a photo of how the main landing gear attach point repair turned out as you asked for during Sun-N-Fun. This is the Co-Pilot side of the airplane. The repairs are 20ply of 9oz Fiberglass, 2ply 9oz Carbon Fiber, a 3/16" steel plate with a "hard rubber" mat between the plate and the Carbon Fiber. The steel plate extends about 1-1/2" past the old damaged area on each side. The area between the front and rear attach points have a 2ply Carbon Fiber "cap" but this was just for looks. The bolts are now AN7-34 for the front and AN7-35 for the rear instead of the old AN6 bolts. Overall I think the repair came out very nice and should be more than strong enough. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kis-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/KIS-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kis-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kis-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.