---------------------------------------------------------- KIS-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 12/19/16: 4 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:23 AM - Re: Gross Weight of TR-1? (Graham Brighton) 2. 05:55 AM - Re: Gross Weight of TR-1? (Galin Hernandez) 3. 07:03 AM - Re: Gross Weight of TR-1? (mark_trickel) 4. 08:37 AM - Re: Re: Gross Weight of TR-1? (Galin Hernandez) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:23:52 AM PST US From: "Graham Brighton" Subject: Re: KIS-List: Gross Weight of TR-1? Hi Steve, Just about the best authority on our TR-1's and TR-4's is Mark Trickel who is AWOL at present ... !! ... anybody know where/why he has been absent lately ?? Anyway just my 2 Cents worth ... I have a TR-1 .. i am not the builder ... it is Subaru Powered .. The official W@B that was generated for my Plane at the point of the Airworthy and Registration Shows MTOW of 1550 lbs . Empty Weight is 1026 lbs . Two Batteries are mounted in the aft Tail Fuselage cone . I only have the 30 gl (15+15 ) Fuel capacity . I weigh 155lbs BUT .. My W&B is very hard to exceed ! ... I have Run the W&B for most loading situations ... Full Fuel plus Plt&Pax and Max Baggage(30lbs) and Empty Fuel and Single Plt and no this, and no that and max this and max that ..... and i still stay in the Envelope and never have to use Ballast .. FWD CG Limit 61.00" and Aft Limit 65.00 " So ... probably not much help to you ... just saying what my TR-1 W&B is like .. ( which is great ! ) Cheers, Graham .. From: pastormac@comcast.net Sent: Monday, December 19, 2016 2:42 AM Subject: Re: KIS-List: Gross Weight of TR-1? Thank you! After repainting the plane and a new weight an balance, when I fly solo I'm having to place 30 lbs behind the seat in baggage area to have the proper weight distribution. I have 15 gal tanks in each wing and can only fly with 10 gal in each. Is this common? I weigh 195. My wife flys with me we can have 10 in each tank and 25 baggage she weighs 135. Just the way the numbers came out. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 17, 2016, at 9:19 PM, Galin Hernandez wrote: FWIW: according to the original KIS aircraft sales brochure, with the Lycoming O-235 the max gross weigh of a TR-1 is 1,400lbs. But then the same document states the MGW of a KIS4 with an O-360 is 2,300lbs but Rich specifically told me it should be 2,500lbs. You can download a copy of the original sales brochure at: http://puertoricoflyer.com/Files/KIS%20Builders%20Manual/KIS%20Sport%20Ai rcraft%20Sales%20Brochure.pdf Legally, the MGW is set to whatever the builder believes, but it can be changed with modifications to the original build. YMMV On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 11:04 AM, pastormac wrote: Hi Guys, I have gotten conflicting information on my gross weight of my TR-1? Does anyone know if it's 1,400 or 1,450? I have a Lycoming 235 L2C tri gear. Thanks!! Steve McIntosh > On Dec 17, 2016, at 3:01 AM, KIS-List Digest Server wrote: > > * > > > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive > > > Today's complete KIS-List Digest can also be found in either of the > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes > and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version > of the KIS-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor > such as Notepad or with a web browser. > > HTML Version: > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html& Chapter 16-12-16&Archive=KIS > > Text Version: > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&C hapter 16-12-16&Archive=KIS > > > ====================== > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive > ====================== > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > KIS-List Digest Archive > --- > Total Messages Posted Fri 12/16/16: 1 > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > Today's Message Index: > ---------------------- > > 1. 07:07 AM - Airport Courtesy Cars App Closing? (gbrasch) > > > > ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ > > > Time: 07:07:03 AM PST US > Subject: KIS-List: Airport Courtesy Cars App Closing? > From: "gbrasch" > > > IMPORTANT! If you are a user of the app version of Airport Courtesy Cars, please > view it for an important message about the possible closure of the app, or view > the page here: > > https://www.airportcourtesycars.com/app-status.html > > -------- > Glenn Brasch > RV-9A Flying > Medevac Helicopter Pilot (Ret) > Owner, "Airport Courtesy Cars" Smart Phone App > and www.airportcourtesycars.com > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=463989#463989 > > > > > > > > br> fts!) r> > com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">www.aeroelectric.com w.buildersbooks.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">www.buildersbooks.com p.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">www.homebuilthelp.com e.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">www.mypilotstore.com " target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">www.mrrace.com target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -Matt Dralle, List Admin. List" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List FORUMS - _blank" rel="noreferrer">http://forums.matronics.com WIKI - lank" rel="noreferrer">http://wiki.matronics.com b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://www.matronics.com/contribution No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 12/16/16 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:55:31 AM PST US From: Galin Hernandez Subject: Re: KIS-List: Gross Weight of TR-1? FWIW I got this e-Mal from Mark T. back in October: *Hello Galin, Sorry for my absence but earlier this year my computer died and when I finally figured out it could not be fixed I bought a tablet. So I am still learning how to used it but probably should have bought another computer.* *I have been working on the KIS, and have replaced many structural lay ups. And I want to tell you there is nothing worse that grinding and sanding off old bad fiberglass. I am on my second dremel tool! I am starting to put things back on the plane, I just set the center consul sides in place and got the flap torque tubes back in place and working better than they were before. I narrowed the center consul a quarter of and inch. I patched up a huge hole in the firewall and one on the forward fuse floor about 17 inches wide by 8 inches back from the firewall. Almost all rear spar lay ups were replaced and hard points added for seat belts, the original builder omitted them! Some main spar box lay ups were replaced. I am going to get as much glassing done before winter as I can.* *I have been getting a few inquiries about the KIS airplanes in general. The interest comes from my website and the information that I hand out at the airshows.* *I had one guy asking me about Sid Bravo's TR-1. I did not know the airplane was for sale and the guy kept referring to is as N526BR and I did not recognize the airplane until he sent me a picture of it and I knew right away who's airplane it was. I told him that was a nice plane and I was sure pretty sure Sid has more in it than he is asking for it, the Garmin stuff installed was probably 13 grand or more alone! He is asking 35,000.* *Another congratulations goes out to you on your mid west cross country. The pics of Kent and Ed are priceless. I'll miss Kent we saw him at 3 oshkosh's. I was born in Missouri and i know Kent is one of the good ol' boys.* *I stopped and met Ed at his hanger a couple years back. My family used to live in that area, it was a really nostalgic experience. Ed even knows a guy that owned a car paint shop that Rich used to work for. I remember Rich taking me to the shop in his car and mom almost killed him for taking me along! But that is were he honed his painting skills and obtained gift of shaping things like airplanes. Did you sign Ed's guest book at the hanger?* *If you might be thinking about another such run there is about 7 KIS aircraft in Arizona =C3-nd a flying TR-4 in western Texas, oh and a few i n Southern Califorina.* *Oshkosh was really cool this year. Mark's engines are gaining a following, people are watching what he is doing and every year he has more engine stuff. He brought Ted McLams TR-1 that he had at SNF. People recognize the design. I had so many people stopping by praising Rich and all he had done. One afternoon I was sitting in a chair next to the KIS and the guy yells a cross to me from the other side of the plane, If I didn't know any better l'd think you were Rich Trickel. I replied well I'm Rich's brother is that close enough? That turned out to be Wayne Gifford the first to build and fly both TR-1 and TR -4 in his late 80s. Had another guy, comes up and shows me a few pics of a beautiful Lancair. He bought the Kit and met Rich when he picked it up at the shop. They became good friend's and Rich helped him out on some of the build. It took home 16 years to finish but he finished it and is still flying it. I think one of the best experiences is when this guy Chuck Prezton from Kitplanes stops by and is asking me all about the KIS and what we were doing, he told me he knew Rich a for years and knew the many projects he did, and the reputation he had, he handed me his card and says if I ever need anything for KIS to let him know. Another good one was, I get this phone call it's Elden Lorha he could not find us but was only just around the corner. He had a great time talking to us about the KIS and his KIS. ELDEN is 89 and I really get the feeling he's thinking about that medic=C3-l going away hmmmm. I know he wants the fly it.* *I am getting ready to post on the forum for the guy in Indiana looking for KIS guys near him. There are a couple others nearby Wally Clingan tr1 has a new owner John Baker and George Moore in Michigan.* *I hope all is well down your way and you made it through the storm OK.* *Regards, MT* On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 4:22 AM, Graham Brighton wrote: > Hi Steve, > Just about the best authority on our TR-1's and TR-4's i s > Mark Trickel who is AWOL at present ... !! ... anybody know where/why he > has been absent lately ?? > Anyway just my 2 Cents worth ... I have a TR-1 .. i am not the builder .. .. > it is Subaru Powered .. The official W@B that was generated for my Plane > at the point of the Airworthy and Registration Shows MTOW of 1550 lbs . > Empty Weight is 1026 lbs . Two Batteries are mounted in the aft Tail > Fuselage cone . > I only have the 30 gl (15+15 ) Fuel capacity . > I weigh 155lbs > BUT .. My W&B is very hard to exceed ! ... I have Run the W&B for most > loading situations ... Full Fuel plus Plt&Pax and Max Baggage(30lbs) and > Empty Fuel and Single Plt and no this, and no that and max this and max > that ..... and i still stay in the Envelope and never have to use Ballas t > .. FWD CG Limit 61.00" and Aft Limit 65.00 " > So ... probably not much help to you ... just saying what my TR-1 W&B is > like .. ( which is great ! ) > Cheers, > Graham > > . > > > *From:* pastormac@comcast.net > *Sent:* Monday, December 19, 2016 2:42 AM > *To:* kis-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: KIS-List: Gross Weight of TR-1? > > Thank you! After repainting the plane and a new weight an balance, when I > fly solo I'm having to place 30 lbs behind the seat in baggage area to ha ve > the proper weight distribution. I have 15 gal tanks in each wing and can > only fly with 10 gal in each. Is this common? I weigh 195. My wife flys > with me we can have 10 in each tank and 25 baggage she weighs 135. Just t he > way the numbers came out. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Dec 17, 2016, at 9:19 PM, Galin Hernandez wrote: > > FWIW: according to the original KIS aircraft sales brochure, with the > Lycoming O-235 the max gross weigh of a TR-1 is 1,400lbs. But then the sa me > document states the MGW of a KIS4 with an O-360 is 2,300lbs but Rich > specifically told me it should be 2,500lbs. > > You can download a copy of the original sales brochure at: > > http://puertoricoflyer.com/Files/KIS%20Builders%20Manual/ > KIS%20Sport%20Aircraft%20Sales%20Brochure.pdf > > Legally, the MGW is set to whatever the builder believes, but it can be > changed with modifications to the original build. YMMV > > > On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 11:04 AM, pastormac wrote : > >> >> Hi Guys, >> I have gotten conflicting information on my gross weight of my TR-1? >> Does anyone know if it's 1,400 or 1,450? I have a Lycoming 235 L2C tri >> gear. >> Thanks!! >> Steve McIntosh >> >> > On Dec 17, 2016, at 3:01 AM, KIS-List Digest Server < >> kis-list@matronics.com> wrote: >> > >> > * >> > >> > ======================= = >> > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive >> > ======================= = >> > >> > Today's complete KIS-List Digest can also be found in either of the >> > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest >> formatted >> > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexe s >> > and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII versio n >> > of the KIS-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor >> > such as Notepad or with a web browser. >> > >> > HTML Version: >> > >> > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701& >> View=html&Chapter 16-12-16&Archive=KIS >> > >> > Text Version: >> > >> > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701& >> View=txt&Chapter 16-12-16&Archive=KIS >> > >> > >> > ====================== >> > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive >> > ====================== >> > >> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------- >> > KIS-List Digest Archive >> > --- >> > Total Messages Posted Fri 12/16/16: 1 >> > ---------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > >> > Today's Message Index: >> > ---------------------- >> > >> > 1. 07:07 AM - Airport Courtesy Cars App Closing? (gbrasch) >> > >> > >> > >> > ________________________________ Message 1 >> _____________________________________ >> > >> > >> > Time: 07:07:03 AM PST US >> > Subject: KIS-List: Airport Courtesy Cars App Closing? >> > From: "gbrasch" >> > >> > >> > IMPORTANT! If you are a user of the app version of Airport Courtesy >> Cars, please >> > view it for an important message about the possible closure of the app , >> or view >> > the page here: >> > >> > https://www.airportcourtesycars.com/app-status.html >> > >> > -------- >> > Glenn Brasch >> > RV-9A Flying >> > Medevac Helicopter Pilot (Ret) >> > Owner, "Airport Courtesy Cars" Smart Phone App >> > and www.airportcourtesycars.com >> > >> > >> > Read this topic online here: >> > >> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=463989#463989 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> ======================== =========== >> br> fts!) >> r> > com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">www.aeroelectric.com >> w.buildersbooks.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">www. >> buildersbooks.com >> p.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">www.homebuilthelp.com >> e.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">www.mypilotstore.com >> " target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">www.mrrace.com >> target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://www.matronics.com/contributi on >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> ======================== =========== >> List" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://www.matronics.com/ >> Navigator?KIS-List >> ======================== =========== >> FORUMS - >> _blank" rel="noreferrer">http://forums.matronics.com >> ======================== =========== >> WIKI - >> lank" rel="noreferrer">http://wiki.matronics.com >> ======================== =========== >> b Site - >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://www.matronics.com/contributi on >> ======================== =========== >> >> >> >> > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 6 > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:03:39 AM PST US Subject: KIS-List: Re: Gross Weight of TR-1? From: "mark_trickel" To the community sorry for my absence, suffering computer issues. Hello Steve, congratulations on getting your KIS back flying. The maximum gross weight for the KIS TR-1 is 1600 lbs. At this weight the basic airframe remains in the Normal catagory as stated in the FARs Part 23. That said, the weak link is the main gear, and for that the gross weight at landing should be 1450 lbs or less. So in other words the extra weight would be in fuel to be burned off before landing. That is not to say you cannot land at a heavier weight, your margin of safty is just less. Plus I hear the main gear will flex a hellin. Your need to have 30 pounds in the baggage is goofy. Something is not right. The third owner of your airplane added the later nose gear, and I suspect that the addition may have not been sorted out correctly. The new gear is much heavier then the orginal. Another issue with your airplane maybe the position of the main gear. If the the weight and balance indicates more than 20% of the weight on the nose gear you might want to address this. Many KIS owners have canted the main gear forward with flox wedges added at the gear attachment points and found improved handling in ground effect during the transion to touch down. Our resident engineers are the KIS experts I only highly endorse their findings. MT Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=464178#464178 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:37:46 AM PST US From: Galin Hernandez Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: Gross Weight of TR-1? This makes total sense. I have flown several certified aircraft that have a higher Max Gross Weight (MGW) than their Max Landing Weight (MLW). If you takeoff at MGW you have to burn enough fuel to land below MLW. If you don't then an overweight landing inspection must be done. Rich told me the MGW of the KIS4 should be 2,500Lbs but I use the 2,300Lbs specified in the sales brochure as my MLW. I don't have an issue with the CG in my airplane. YMMV On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 10:03 AM, mark_trickel wrote: > > To the community sorry for my absence, suffering computer issues. > > Hello Steve, congratulations on getting your KIS back flying. > > The maximum gross weight for the KIS TR-1 is 1600 lbs. At this weight the > basic airframe remains in the Normal catagory as stated in the FARs Part > 23. That said, the weak link is the main gear, and for that the gross > weight at landing should be 1450 lbs or less. So in other words the extra > weight would be in fuel to be burned off before landing. That is not to say > you cannot land at a heavier weight, your margin of safty is just less. > Plus I hear the main gear will flex a hellin. > > Your need to have 30 pounds in the baggage is goofy. Something is not > right. The third owner of your airplane added the later nose gear, and I > suspect that the addition may have not been sorted out correctly. The new > gear is much heavier then the orginal. > > Another issue with your airplane maybe the position of the main gear. If > the the weight and balance indicates more than 20% of the weight on the > nose gear you might want to address this. Many KIS owners have canted the > main gear forward with flox wedges added at the gear attachment points and > found improved handling in ground effect during the transion to touch down. > > Our resident engineers are the KIS experts I only highly endorse their > findings. > > MT > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=464178#464178 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kis-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/KIS-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kis-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kis-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.