Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:20 AM - Re: Can anybody confirm this? (mark_trickel)
2. 07:52 AM - Re: Re: Can anybody confirm this? (Keith.Miller@esa.int)
3. 10:22 AM - Re: Re: Can anybody confirm this? (Owen Baker)
4. 10:50 AM - Re: Re: Can anybody confirm this? (pastormac@comcast.net)
5. 12:00 PM - Re: Can anybody confirm this? (Owen Baker)
6. 01:27 PM - Fw: Re: Can anybody confirm this? (Owen Baker)
7. 01:47 PM - Re: Re: Can anybody confirm this? (Galin Hernandez)
8. 01:47 PM - Re: Re: Can anybody confirm this? (Galin Hernandez)
9. 02:05 PM - Re: Fw: Re: Can anybody confirm this? (Galin Hernandez)
10. 02:07 PM - Re: Fw: Re: Can anybody confirm this? (Galin Hernandez)
11. 02:08 PM - Re: Can anybody confirm this? (M Ketteing)
12. 04:42 PM - Re: Re: Can anybody confirm this? (pastormac@comcast.net)
13. 05:13 PM - Re: Re: Can anybody confirm this? (Galin Hernandez)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Can anybody confirm this? |
OC, thank you for the details of this situation. When any occurrence happens within
our small community I feel it is very important that all details are covered
so we can learn from it. The unfortunate part is that only a very small percentage
of our community frequent this forum.
I was aware you were having Lyle make you a new nose gear with changes. I was aware
you were looking for torque specs, but I missed the mishap.
My questions are:
On nose gear #1 That was a little disheartening to learn the stud was too short
to allow for a proper stack, and that the hole was off center and too close
to the end of the stud. Now that makes me fearful about the rest of the fleet
that might have this nose gear version. I am curious to know if you might have
considered milling the surface of the shoe to allow of a proper stack? That may
have eliminated one of your two issues and a proper stack with Belleville washers
in place could have remedied your second issue to only having to modified
the castle nut in one cotter pin slot. What was in your original stack?
On nose gear #2 What was in the stack? Did you have steel washers on both sides
(above and below) of the Belleville washers? Did you have the Belleville washers
in direct contact with the aluminum shoe?
Weight and balance Where do you estimate your CG was at the time of this episode?
We all know the forward and aft limits of the TR-1 but simply having the CG
at the forward limit is not good enough (IMO). The CG needs to be closer to
the center and in the best-case scenario closer to the aft limit as that is where
it is most efficient.
So I understand you had a nose gear collapse similar to Galin. Your spinner hit
the runway. The engine was most likely at idol say 800 to 900 rpm at the time
of impact. How many times did each blade strike the runway? And this prop was
repairable?
Nose gear #3 third time is always a charm!
MT
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=467672#467672
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Can anybody confirm this? |
I think it was a bit a bad luck with OC 's shortened stud . Mine was made a
few months later by Lyle and he had noted the problem and fixed it, so i
guess it depends upon when it was made in the production series
(See attached file: IMG_9929.JPG)
From: "mark_trickel" <marktrickel@gmail.com>
Subject: KIS-List: Re: Can anybody confirm this?
Sent by: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com
OC, thank you for the details of this situation. When any occurrence happens
within our small community I feel it is very important that all details are
covered so we can learn from it. The unfortunate part is that only a very
small percentage of our community frequent this forum.
I was aware you were having Lyle make you a new nose gear with changes. I was
aware you were looking for torque specs, but I missed the mishap.
My questions are:
On nose gear #1 ??? That was a little disheartening to learn the stud was too
short to allow for a proper stack, and that the hole was off center and too
close to the end of the stud. Now that makes me fearful about the rest of the
fleet that might have this nose gear version. I am curious to know if you
might have considered milling the surface of the shoe to allow of a proper
stack? That may have eliminated one of your two issues and a proper stack
with Belleville washers in place could have remedied your second issue to
only having to modified the castle nut in one cotter pin slot. What was in
your original stack?
On nose gear #2 ??? What was in the stack? Did you have steel washers on both
sides (above and below) of the Belleville washers? Did you have the
Belleville washers in direct contact with the aluminum shoe?
Weight and balance ??? Where do you estimate your CG was at the time of this
episode? We all know the forward and aft limits of the TR-1 but simply having
the CG at the forward limit is not good enough (IMO). The CG needs to be
closer to the center and in the best-case scenario closer to the aft limit as
that is where it is most efficient.
So I understand you had a nose gear collapse similar to Galin. Your spinner
hit the runway. The engine was most likely at idol say 800 to 900 rpm at the
time of impact. How many times did each blade strike the runway? And this
prop was repairable?
Nose gear #3 ??? third time is always a charm!
MT
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=467672#467672
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Can anybody confirm this? |
3/27/2017
Hello Keith, Thanks for your input. You wrote:
1) ".... he had noted the problem and fixed it..."
I don't think so. Your picture appears to also show a thin AN320-12 shear
type castle nut in place with a fairly thin washer stack up (Bellevilles?).
This would be consistent with the same length of the 3/4 inch diameter
portion of the vertical stub as my #1 Lyle gear. I have seen no evidence
that Lyle changed the length of the 3/4 inch diameter portion of the
vertical stub until (at my request) he made it a bit longer for my #2 and #3
weldments.
See the attached picture of the vertical stub on my #1 Lyle nose gear. I
initially thought that the 3/4 inch diameter portion of the vertical stub
was a machined out and threaded continuation of the vertical stub steel
immediately above it (all one solid piece). I later learned that I was wrong
and that the 3/4 inch diameter portion was, in fact, a separately obtained
bolt whose head (maybe machined round first) was inserted into a hole in the
steel above it and welded into place. Only after removing my #1 Lyle gear
from the plane and examining the end of the vertical stub with a bright
light and a magnifying glass was I able to see the evidence of a weld bead.
I speculate that Lyle obtained these bolts from McMaster-Carr and that the
quality control of the original manufacturer of these bolts was not
pristine. The cotter pin holes were not exactly through the center of the
bolt (I have noticed a bit of this on the bolts in my #2 and #3 Lyle gears
as well) and the cotter pin hole in the end of the bolt in my #1 Lyle gear
was too close to the end of the bolt for my comfort.
Any questions?
OC
============================================
From: Keith.Miller@esa.int
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 10:45 AM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: Can anybody confirm this?
I think it was a bit a bad luck with OC 's shortened stud . Mine was made a
few months later by Lyle and he had noted the problem and fixed it, so i
guess it depends upon when it was made in the production series
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Can anybody confirm this? |
Hi Guys,
Speaking of the nose gear. I'm getting quite a bit of shimmy on take off and landing.
Is there an adjustment I can make?
Thanks!!
Steve
Sent from my iPhone
> On Mar 27, 2017, at 1:21 PM, Owen Baker <bakerocb@cox.net> wrote:
>
> 3/27/2017
>
> Hello Keith, Thanks for your input. You wrote:
>
> 1) ".... he had noted the problem and fixed it..."
>
> I don't think so. Your picture appears to also show a thin AN320-12 shear type
castle nut in place with a fairly thin washer stack up (Bellevilles?). This
would be consistent with the same length of the 3/4 inch diameter portion of the
vertical stub as my #1 Lyle gear. I have seen no evidence that Lyle changed
the length of the 3/4 inch diameter portion of the vertical stub until (at my
request) he made it a bit longer for my #2 and #3 weldments.
>
> See the attached picture of the vertical stub on my #1 Lyle nose gear. I initially
thought that the 3/4 inch diameter portion of the vertical stub was a machined
out and threaded continuation of the vertical stub steel immediately above
it (all one solid piece). I later learned that I was wrong and that the 3/4
inch diameter portion was, in fact, a separately obtained bolt whose head (maybe
machined round first) was inserted into a hole in the steel above it and
welded into place. Only after removing my #1 Lyle gear from the plane and examining
the end of the vertical stub with a bright light and a magnifying glass
was I able to see the evidence of a weld bead.
>
> I speculate that Lyle obtained these bolts from McMaster-Carr and that the quality
control of the original manufacturer of these bolts was not pristine. The
cotter pin holes were not exactly through the center of the bolt (I have noticed
a bit of this on the bolts in my #2 and #3 Lyle gears as well) and the cotter
pin hole in the end of the bolt in my #1 Lyle gear was too close to the end
of the bolt for my comfort.
>
> Any questions?
>
> OC
>
> ============================================
>
> From: Keith.Miller@esa.int
> Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 10:45 AM
> To: kis-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: Can anybody confirm this?
>
> I think it was a bit a bad luck with OC 's shortened stud . Mine was made a
> few months later by Lyle and he had noted the problem and fixed it, so i
> guess it depends upon when it was made in the production series
>
>
> <4-9-16 CAMERA 003.JPG>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Can anybody confirm this? |
3/27/2017
Hello Mark, You wrote:
1) "I am curious to know if you might have considered milling the surface of
the shoe to allow of a proper stack?"
This is not a feasible solution. The bottom surface of the shoe must project
down below the shoulder above the 3/4 inch diameter portion of the vertical
stub so that any washers contact the bottom of the shoe and not the shoulder
of the stub. This washer contact with the bottom of the shoe is what applies
the friction force on the shoe that keeps it from shimmying. In one of the
newsletters there is an article, along with a sketch, that emphasizes this
point.
2) "... a proper stack with Belleville washers in place could have remedied
your second issue to only having to modified the castle nut in one cotter
pin slot."
I operated with only one pair of widened notches in the castle nut for some
period of time. This became a nuisance when I wanted to make a small
friction adjustment without disturbing and reshuffling the entire washer
stack.
What you are suggesting here is that the friction level be adjusted by
inserting or removing washers to obtain the desired results rather than just
turning the nut. This is a rather crude manner of adjusting the friction and
it could take many tries (and many different washer thicknesses) to achieve
the desired results. As a side note: Realize also that the nut must be
prevented from rotating by sticking an ice pick or something similar through
the cotter key passage every time the shoe is rotated for testing of the
friction level. It always bothered me a bit that the nut rotated back and
forth a little bit with the change in direction of the movement of the shoe
even with the cotter pin in place. I eventually solved that problem, if it
was a problem, by replacing the cotter pin with a #6 hex socket head cap
screw, two washers, and an elastic stop nut.
3) "What was in your original stack?"
One or more 1/8 inch thick nylon washers and flat metal washers as needed to
fit in the limited height available and obtained the desired friction level.
4) "On nose gear #2 What was in the stack?"
Either two or four Belleville washers -- I can not exactly recall.
5) "Did you have steel washers on both sides (above and below) of the
Belleville washers?"
I did not. Even with the provided increased length of the 3/4 inch diameter
portion of the vertical stub there was insufficient room to accommodate flat
washers in addition to the Belleville washers and the full size AN310-12
castle nut. (I had asked Lyle to make the 3/4 inch portion of the vertical
stub longer than he provided, but he declined to do so.)
6) "Did you have the Belleville washers in direct contact with the aluminum
shoe?"
Yes, but it was not my desire to do it that way. See 5 above.
7) "Where do you estimate your CG was at the time of this episode?"
Some where between 61.50 and 65.60 inches aft of the datum point.
8) "How many times did each blade strike the runway?"
Here is how I responded to a local pilot who asked a similarly motivated
question about engine stoppage:
"The engine did not experience sudden stoppage in the current factory
documented concept in my opinion. First point: This is a
wooden prop and all the current literature assumes a metal prop which can
deliver a much more abrupt shock to an engine crankshaft. Second point: Each
of the propeller blades had a small and equal amount of material scraped off
of its tip with no significant impact rotational damage appearing any
further towards the propeller hub.
I considered pulling the engine and sending it to one of the three
organizations that the factory rep recommended when I talked to him about my
situation. I also reviewed the Continental documentation on what they
considered an acceptable tear down inspection. It was practically back to
the ore that the metal had been forged from -- no bit was to be left
connected to any other bit. I also thought back to my training at the
Continental factory before I bought my engine and remembered the tooling,
extreme precision, and care that was needed in assembling an engine. I just
did not believe that: a) That degree of disassembly was needed. b) No field
activity in their right mind would go to the disassembly level called for in
the Continental documentation. c) Regardless of the level of disassembly at
the field activity I doubted their ability to put the engine back together
as well as it was currently put together by the factory. I had more
confidence in the engine as it existed than after a tear down and reassembly
by some non factory field activity."
9) "And this prop was repairable?"
The tips were repaired by the Prince factory in a few weeks and the engine,
prop, plane, and pilot have flown 15 hours since the event.
OC
PS: I can appreciate that people are reading all sorts of things into this
event and asking all sorts of questions that I am willing to answer. But I
ask all to remember that this event was a direct result of the mechanic (me)
installing Lyle gear #2 with no numerical friction level information at hand
and using the criteria of TFAR (That Feels About Right) to set the friction
level. It was right for a few landings and then it wasn't.
==============================
From: mark_trickel
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 9:19 AM
Subject: KIS-List: Re: Can anybody confirm this?
OC, thank you for the details of this situation. When any occurrence happens
within our small community I feel it is very important that all details are
covered so we can learn from it. The unfortunate part is that only a very
small percentage of our community frequent this forum.
I was aware you were having Lyle make you a new nose gear with changes. I
was aware you were looking for torque specs, but I missed the mishap.
My questions are:
On nose gear #1 That was a little disheartening to learn the stud was
too short to allow for a proper stack, and that the hole was off center and
too close to the end of the stud. Now that makes me fearful about the rest
of the fleet that might have this nose gear version. I am curious to know if
you might have considered milling the surface of the shoe to allow of a
proper stack? That may have eliminated one of your two issues and a proper
stack with Belleville washers in place could have remedied your second issue
to only having to modified the castle nut in one cotter pin slot. What was
in your original stack?
On nose gear #2 What was in the stack? Did you have steel washers on
both sides (above and below) of the Belleville washers? Did you have the
Belleville washers in direct contact with the aluminum shoe?
Weight and balance Where do you estimate your CG was at the time of this
episode? We all know the forward and aft limits of the TR-1 but simply
having the CG at the forward limit is not good enough (IMO). The CG needs to
be closer to the center and in the best-case scenario closer to the aft
limit as that is where it is most efficient.
So I understand you had a nose gear collapse similar to Galin. Your spinner
hit the runway. The engine was most likely at idol say 800 to 900 rpm at the
time of impact. How many times did each blade strike the runway? And this
prop was repairable?
Nose gear #3 third time is always a charm!
MT
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Can anybody confirm this? |
3/27/2017
Hello Steve, You wrote: "Is there an adjustment I can make?"
This is very dangerous. DO NOT FLY THIS PLANE until the friction nut on the
bottom of the nose gear has been properly adjusted.
See the photo from Keith Miller (thanks Keith) that is attached to this
email.
This shimmy can become violent enough to damage the nose gear linkages,
collapse the nose gear, and cause the nose of the airplane to fall down and
contact the runway surface.
I recommend:
1) Elevate the nose of the plane so that the nose tire is off the ground.
(Contact me if needed for tips on how to do this.)
2) Attach a fish scale to the shoe holding the nose wheel in the vicinity of
the wheel axle. See how many pounds of pull that it takes to move the shoe
from side to side. This is to establish what the friction level is now. If
it is several pounds less than 27 pounds (which it probably is because of
the shimmy) you must adjust the friction level.
3) Use a black sharpie pen to number the nut notch above the cotter pin
head as notch 1. Make a vertical mark on the shoe above notch 1 with the
sharpie.
4) Remove the cotter pin holding the large AN320-12 castle nut from turning.
Go around the nut with the sharpie numbering each notch in sequence. This is
so that you can keep track of the notch that is under the vertical mark.
5) Using a 1 1/8 inch box wrench tighten the nut one notch. Use an ice pick
or similar item to ensure that the new nut notch and the cotter pin hole
through the vertical stub are aligned. Leave the ice pick in place.
6) Use the fish scale again to move the shoe back and forth to ensure that
you have adjusted the friction to the vicinity of 27 pounds.
7) Remove the ice pick and repeat 5 and 6 above if needed. When you have the
desired friction level set, install a new cotter pin and lower the nose tire
to the ground.
8) Go fly the plane.
Any questions?
OC
===============================
From: pastormac@comcast.net
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: Can anybody confirm this?
Hi Guys,
Speaking of the nose gear. I'm getting quite a bit of shimmy on take off and
landing. Is there an adjustment I can make?
Thanks!!
Steve
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Can anybody confirm this? |
FWIW Rich told me to adjust the nose gear friction to between 20 and 35lbs
of break force with 27lb being optimal. He did say that 20lbs was an
absolute minimum, that 20lbs might not work in some cases and not to worry
about being super accurate. I still have the cheap Walmart fish weight
scale he got for me in El Salvador just like this one:
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Berkley-Scale-with-Tape/16637411
I try to adjust mine for 27lbs but take anything over 25lbs. This has
worked well for me in the last 10yrs of flying my TR-4. YMMV
On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 1:50 PM, <pastormac@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Hi Guys,
> Speaking of the nose gear. I'm getting quite a bit of shimmy on take off
> and landing. Is there an adjustment I can make?
> Thanks!!
> Steve
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Mar 27, 2017, at 1:21 PM, Owen Baker <bakerocb@cox.net> wrote:
> >
> > 3/27/2017
> >
> > Hello Keith, Thanks for your input. You wrote:
> >
> > 1) ".... he had noted the problem and fixed it..."
> >
> > I don't think so. Your picture appears to also show a thin AN320-12
> shear type castle nut in place with a fairly thin washer stack up
> (Bellevilles?). This would be consistent with the same length of the 3/4
> inch diameter portion of the vertical stub as my #1 Lyle gear. I have seen
> no evidence that Lyle changed the length of the 3/4 inch diameter portion
> of the vertical stub until (at my request) he made it a bit longer for my
> #2 and #3 weldments.
> >
> > See the attached picture of the vertical stub on my #1 Lyle nose gear. I
> initially thought that the 3/4 inch diameter portion of the vertical stub
> was a machined out and threaded continuation of the vertical stub steel
> immediately above it (all one solid piece). I later learned that I was
> wrong and that the 3/4 inch diameter portion was, in fact, a separately
> obtained bolt whose head (maybe machined round first) was inserted into a
> hole in the steel above it and welded into place. Only after removing my #1
> Lyle gear from the plane and examining the end of the vertical stub with a
> bright light and a magnifying glass was I able to see the evidence of a
> weld bead.
> >
> > I speculate that Lyle obtained these bolts from McMaster-Carr and that
> the quality control of the original manufacturer of these bolts was not
> pristine. The cotter pin holes were not exactly through the center of the
> bolt (I have noticed a bit of this on the bolts in my #2 and #3 Lyle gears
> as well) and the cotter pin hole in the end of the bolt in my #1 Lyle gear
> was too close to the end of the bolt for my comfort.
> >
> > Any questions?
> >
> > OC
> >
> > ============================================
> >
> > From: Keith.Miller@esa.int
> > Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 10:45 AM
> > To: kis-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: Can anybody confirm this?
> >
> > I think it was a bit a bad luck with OC 's shortened stud . Mine was
> made a
> > few months later by Lyle and he had noted the problem and fixed it, so i
> > guess it depends upon when it was made in the production series
> >
> >
> > <4-9-16 CAMERA 003.JPG>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Can anybody confirm this? |
Wrong Walmart link. THIS is the one I have
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Eagle-Claw-Scale-with-Tape-Measure-50-lb/45087468
On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 4:45 PM, Galin Hernandez <galinhdz@gmail.com> wrote:
> FWIW Rich told me to adjust the nose gear friction to between 20 and 35lbs
> of break force with 27lb being optimal. He did say that 20lbs was an
> absolute minimum, that 20lbs might not work in some cases and not to worry
> about being super accurate. I still have the cheap Walmart fish weight
> scale he got for me in El Salvador just like this one:
>
> https://www.walmart.com/ip/Berkley-Scale-with-Tape/16637411
>
> I try to adjust mine for 27lbs but take anything over 25lbs. This has
> worked well for me in the last 10yrs of flying my TR-4. YMMV
>
> On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 1:50 PM, <pastormac@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi Guys,
>> Speaking of the nose gear. I'm getting quite a bit of shimmy on take off
>> and landing. Is there an adjustment I can make?
>> Thanks!!
>> Steve
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> > On Mar 27, 2017, at 1:21 PM, Owen Baker <bakerocb@cox.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > 3/27/2017
>> >
>> > Hello Keith, Thanks for your input. You wrote:
>> >
>> > 1) ".... he had noted the problem and fixed it..."
>> >
>> > I don't think so. Your picture appears to also show a thin AN320-12
>> shear type castle nut in place with a fairly thin washer stack up
>> (Bellevilles?). This would be consistent with the same length of the 3/4
>> inch diameter portion of the vertical stub as my #1 Lyle gear. I have seen
>> no evidence that Lyle changed the length of the 3/4 inch diameter portion
>> of the vertical stub until (at my request) he made it a bit longer for my
>> #2 and #3 weldments.
>> >
>> > See the attached picture of the vertical stub on my #1 Lyle nose gear.
>> I initially thought that the 3/4 inch diameter portion of the vertical stub
>> was a machined out and threaded continuation of the vertical stub steel
>> immediately above it (all one solid piece). I later learned that I was
>> wrong and that the 3/4 inch diameter portion was, in fact, a separately
>> obtained bolt whose head (maybe machined round first) was inserted into a
>> hole in the steel above it and welded into place. Only after removing my #1
>> Lyle gear from the plane and examining the end of the vertical stub with a
>> bright light and a magnifying glass was I able to see the evidence of a
>> weld bead.
>> >
>> > I speculate that Lyle obtained these bolts from McMaster-Carr and that
>> the quality control of the original manufacturer of these bolts was not
>> pristine. The cotter pin holes were not exactly through the center of the
>> bolt (I have noticed a bit of this on the bolts in my #2 and #3 Lyle gears
>> as well) and the cotter pin hole in the end of the bolt in my #1 Lyle gear
>> was too close to the end of the bolt for my comfort.
>> >
>> > Any questions?
>> >
>> > OC
>> >
>> > ============================================
>> >
>> > From: Keith.Miller@esa.int
>> > Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 10:45 AM
>> > To: kis-list@matronics.com
>> > Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: Can anybody confirm this?
>> >
>> > I think it was a bit a bad luck with OC 's shortened stud . Mine was
>> made a
>> > few months later by Lyle and he had noted the problem and fixed it, so
>> i
>> > guess it depends upon when it was made in the production series
>> >
>> >
>> > <4-9-16 CAMERA 003.JPG>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Can anybody confirm this? |
OC wrote: "This shimmy can become violent enough to damage the nose gear
linkages, collapse the nose gear, and cause the nose of the airplane to
fall down and contact the runway surface." Heed these WORDS OF WISDOM!!!
If you have experienced noticeable shimmy, I recommend you replace the
bolts/pin that hold the nose gear "H" bracket.
With the nose elevated so no weight is on the nose gear, remove the
bolts/pin and check them for any signs of failure. Especially the rear
ones. Without magnafluxing or some other NDI, you probably won't be able to
tell if they are failing. That is why I feel it isn't even worth inspecting
them, just replace the bolts with new ones.
Cheap insurance.
On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 4:26 PM, Owen Baker <bakerocb@cox.net> wrote:
> 3/27/2017
>
> Hello Steve, You wrote: "Is there an adjustment I can make?"
>
> This is very dangerous. DO NOT FLY THIS PLANE until the friction nut on
> the bottom of the nose gear has been properly adjusted.
> See the photo from Keith Miller (thanks Keith) that is attached to this
> email.
>
> This shimmy can become violent enough to damage the nose gear linkages,
> collapse the nose gear, and cause the nose of the airplane to fall down and
> contact the runway surface.
>
> I recommend:
>
> 1) Elevate the nose of the plane so that the nose tire is off the ground.
> (Contact me if needed for tips on how to do this.)
>
> 2) Attach a fish scale to the shoe holding the nose wheel in the vicinity
> of the wheel axle. See how many pounds of pull that it takes to move the
> shoe from side to side. This is to establish what the friction level is
> now. If it is several pounds less than 27 pounds (which it probably is
> because of the shimmy) you must adjust the friction level.
>
> 3) Use a black sharpie pen to number the nut notch above the cotter pin
> head as notch 1. Make a vertical mark on the shoe above notch 1 with the
> sharpie.
>
> 4) Remove the cotter pin holding the large AN320-12 castle nut from
> turning. Go around the nut with the sharpie numbering each notch in
> sequence. This is so that you can keep track of the notch that is under the
> vertical mark.
>
> 5) Using a 1 1/8 inch box wrench tighten the nut one notch. Use an ice
> pick or similar item to ensure that the new nut notch and the cotter pin
> hole through the vertical stub are aligned. Leave the ice pick in place.
>
> 6) Use the fish scale again to move the shoe back and forth to ensure that
> you have adjusted the friction to the vicinity of 27 pounds.
>
> 7) Remove the ice pick and repeat 5 and 6 above if needed. When you have
> the desired friction level set, install a new cotter pin and lower the nose
> tire to the ground.
>
> 8) Go fly the plane.
>
> Any questions?
>
> OC
>
> ===============================
>
> From: pastormac@comcast.net
> Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 1:50 PM
> To: kis-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: Can anybody confirm this?
>
>
> Hi Guys,
> Speaking of the nose gear. I'm getting quite a bit of shimmy on take off
> and landing. Is there an adjustment I can make?
> Thanks!!
> Steve
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Can anybody confirm this? |
Oh, and inspect the "H" bracket for any crack or sign of potential failure.
On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 5:04 PM, Galin Hernandez <galinhdz@gmail.com> wrote:
> OC wrote: "This shimmy can become violent enough to damage the nose gear
> linkages, collapse the nose gear, and cause the nose of the airplane to
> fall down and contact the runway surface." Heed these WORDS OF WISDOM!!!
> If you have experienced noticeable shimmy, I recommend you replace the
> bolts/pin that hold the nose gear "H" bracket.
>
> With the nose elevated so no weight is on the nose gear, remove the
> bolts/pin and check them for any signs of failure. Especially the rear
> ones. Without magnafluxing or some other NDI, you probably won't be able to
> tell if they are failing. That is why I feel it isn't even worth
> inspecting them, just replace the bolts with new ones.
>
> Cheap insurance.
>
> On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 4:26 PM, Owen Baker <bakerocb@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> 3/27/2017
>>
>> Hello Steve, You wrote: "Is there an adjustment I can make?"
>>
>> This is very dangerous. DO NOT FLY THIS PLANE until the friction nut on
>> the bottom of the nose gear has been properly adjusted.
>> See the photo from Keith Miller (thanks Keith) that is attached to this
>> email.
>>
>> This shimmy can become violent enough to damage the nose gear linkages,
>> collapse the nose gear, and cause the nose of the airplane to fall down and
>> contact the runway surface.
>>
>> I recommend:
>>
>> 1) Elevate the nose of the plane so that the nose tire is off the ground.
>> (Contact me if needed for tips on how to do this.)
>>
>> 2) Attach a fish scale to the shoe holding the nose wheel in the vicinity
>> of the wheel axle. See how many pounds of pull that it takes to move the
>> shoe from side to side. This is to establish what the friction level is
>> now. If it is several pounds less than 27 pounds (which it probably is
>> because of the shimmy) you must adjust the friction level.
>>
>> 3) Use a black sharpie pen to number the nut notch above the cotter pin
>> head as notch 1. Make a vertical mark on the shoe above notch 1 with the
>> sharpie.
>>
>> 4) Remove the cotter pin holding the large AN320-12 castle nut from
>> turning. Go around the nut with the sharpie numbering each notch in
>> sequence. This is so that you can keep track of the notch that is under the
>> vertical mark.
>>
>> 5) Using a 1 1/8 inch box wrench tighten the nut one notch. Use an ice
>> pick or similar item to ensure that the new nut notch and the cotter pin
>> hole through the vertical stub are aligned. Leave the ice pick in place.
>>
>> 6) Use the fish scale again to move the shoe back and forth to ensure
>> that you have adjusted the friction to the vicinity of 27 pounds.
>>
>> 7) Remove the ice pick and repeat 5 and 6 above if needed. When you have
>> the desired friction level set, install a new cotter pin and lower the nose
>> tire to the ground.
>>
>> 8) Go fly the plane.
>>
>> Any questions?
>>
>> OC
>>
>> ===============================
>>
>> From: pastormac@comcast.net
>> Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 1:50 PM
>> To: kis-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: Can anybody confirm this?
>>
>>
>> Hi Guys,
>> Speaking of the nose gear. I'm getting quite a bit of shimmy on take off
>> and landing. Is there an adjustment I can make?
>> Thanks!!
>> Steve
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Can anybody confirm this? |
Hi OC,
In general you should have from 10% (max aft CG) to 25% (max forward CG) on the
nose gear.
Assuming your empty weight is a portly 903 lbs and you are at max forward CG, you
should have no more than 225 lbs on your nose gear. My guess is even at full
empty your CG is still not at the front limit. So you (like most every TR-1)
still have too much weight on the nose gear. You really should move the main
gear more forward. Based on 10% on the nose gear at max gross and max aft
CG the main should be about 70.5 inches. I would go with about 71 inches. You
really will like landing and taking off much more with this main gear location.
Plus the loads and stress on the nose gear will be much less.
Also keep in mind that when I checked the nose gear in 1999 (version 2.1, streamlined
tube with added side plates) most everything did not meet FAR part 23 requirements.
This includes the arms, pins and bolts along with the actual tube.
I don't think most of these parts were upgraded with version 3.X.
Mark K.
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 3/26/17, Owen Baker <bakerocb@cox.net> wrote:
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Can anybody confirm this?
To: kis-list@matronics.com, "TRICKEL MARK" <marktrickel@gmail.com>, "KETTERING
MARK" <aeromomentum@yahoo.com>
Date: Sunday, March 26, 2017, 6:29 PM
"Owen Baker " <bakerocb@cox.net>
3/26/2017
Hello Mark K, Thanks for your input. You wrote:
1) "Have you moved you main gear forward?"
Yes, I wedged it forward with flox. The main landing gear
axles are 72.25
inches aft of the 0.00 datum point.
That datum point is, in turn, 32.00 inches forward of the
engine cowling
joggle on the fuselage.
2) "How much weight do you have on your nose gear?"
Right now, in operational configuration and without
reweighing, I don't
know.
The original empty aircraft weighing showed 242 pounds on
the nose gear.
Since then there have been a few misc items (quart of oil,
jar for fuel
testing, rags, etc.)
that are normally kept in the right baggage well.
Also there are some other misc items (hand held radio, small
tool bag, water
bottle, roll of tape, etc.) that have taken up permanent
lodging on the hat
shelf aft of the seats.
Not too long ago I double bagged sand into two kitchen
sliding lock plastic
gallon bags (they totaled 23 pounds) and placed them over
the battery box in
the far right rear corner of the right baggage well (I
mostly fly solo in
the left seat) because I was unhappy that the nose gear was
descending to
meet the runway too quickly after the main gear touched
down. I am not sure
if that has helped, or if so how much.
3) "The geometry (pivot axis angle) could maybe use some
tweaking to reduce
shimmy."
Can you please elaborate on the contribution of the pivot
angle axis on
shimmy and how one would go about tweaking that angle in a
KIS TR-1? Thanks.
Also a reminder that my shimmy problem with strut #2 was my
fault for not
tightening the friction nut enough and I have had no shimmy
problems since
installing strut #3 and using 27 pounds as a base figure for
setting the
friction nut.
Also in my listing of the design / manufacturing defects in
the #1 strut in
paragraph 1 below I forget to mention that the off center
cotter pin hole
was also so close to the end of the vertical stub that I was
concerned about
the possibility of break out.
OC
PS: I have your last name spelled Kettering in some old
places in my
computer. Has there been a change?
=======================================
From: M Ketteing
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2017 12:30 PM
To: kis-list@matronics.com
; TRICKEL MARK
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Can anybody confirm this?
Hello OC,
How much weight do you have on your nose gear? Have
you moved you main gear
forward? As you may know the more weight on the nose
the more energy to the
shimmy. With more energy the less effective the
friction damping. The
geometry (pivot axis angle) could maybe use some tweaking to
reduce shimmy.
Mark K.
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 3/26/17, Owen Baker <bakerocb@cox.net>
wrote:
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Can anybody confirm this?
To: kis-list@matronics.com,
"TRICKEL MARK" <marktrickel@gmail.com>
Date: Sunday, March 26, 2017, 11:45 AM
"Owen Baker " <bakerocb@cox.net>
3/26/2017
Hello Mark, Yes. I can confirm this event. Here is the back
story:
1) I was never happy with my first (#1) Lyle Hendricks
round
tube nose gear
strut. It was very sturdy, but it had two manufacturing /
design defects in
my opinion.
a) The bottom vertical 3/4-16 threaded stud potion was too
short. This meant
that a thin AN320-12 castle nut must be used instead
of the normal
thickness AN310-12 castle nut. This further meant that the
total nut-to-stud
thread interface holding the aluminum shoe and any washer
stack up into
place was pretty limited. I was concerned that that
interface could fail and
the entire shoe and nose wheel could fall off in flight.
b) The cotter pin hole through the bottom of that stud did
not pass through
the center of the stud. This off set meant that the pin
would not pass
through the normal castle notches in the AN320-12 nut. A
person had to grind
/ file the nut notches wider in order for the cotter pin to
pass through the
nut. This had two effects: ONE) The nut could not be
rotated
one notch at a
time to adjust the friction keeping the shoe from shimmying
on landing roll
out unless each pair of notches was ground or filed wider.
TWO) Grinding or
filing all pairs of notches wider further reduced the
nut-to-stud thread
interface.
2) So my solution after over 500 flight hours with no
problems other than
dealing with the two irritating issues described above was
to have Lyle make
for me a new nose gear strut (#2) with modifications to
eliminate the two
issues. I also had Lyle make some other design
modifications
to this #2
strut assembly such as a longer threaded portion at the top
of the
compression rod and a welded cross bar at the bottom of the
rod. The longer
threaded portion at the top of the rod gave more vertical
adjustment
opportunity for the rod and the welded bar permitted one to
hold the rod
from rotating when wrenching nuts at the top of the rod.
3) The #2 strut assembly was installed and I set off on its
first test
flight. Unfortunately, not having any numerical figure
available to measure
the shimmy prevention friction for the shoe, I used the
TFAR
(That Feels
About Right) criteria in tightening the AN310-12 nut
holding
the (new to me)
two Belleville washers up against the aluminum shoe. TFAR
worked fine for a
few touch and go landings at an outlying field, but when I
returned to my
home field (KHEF Manassas Virginia) for one final landing
trouble showed up.
4) At a very slow speed on the final landing roll out the
nose wheel began
to shimmy violently from side to side. This shimmy broke
the
two aluminum
nose wheel brackets at the bottom of the fire wall and
allowed the strut
assembly to flop over sideways and the airplane nose to be
lowered to the
runway surface. The damage consisted of grinding off a
small
portion of the
bottom of the #2 strut weldment, grinding off a bit of each
wooden propeller
tip, and some scrapes off the bottom of the spinner, lower
engine cowl, and
one of the main landing gear wheel pants. This event falls
into the
categories of: "No good deed goes unpunished" or "If it
ain't broke, don't
fix it". Take your choice.
5) The airplane was recovered to my hangar, Lyle graciously
agreed to build
me strut assembly #3, Prince Aircraft repaired the
propeller
tips, I
replaced the spinner, repaired the engine cowling and the
wheel pants, and
had them painted. I put everything back together once I had
all pieces in
hand and used a 27 pound pull at the axle as my base figure
for measuring
the friction for tightening the AN310-12 nut. I flew again
for the first
time since the reported event on 10/18/2016. No nose wheel
strut problems
since then. Thanks again go to Lyle.
Any questions?
OC
====================================
From: mark_trickel
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2017 3:57 AM
To: kis-list@matronics.com
Subject: KIS-List: Can anybody confirm this?
http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/08/kis-tr-1-n660c-incident-occurred-august.html
OC?
MT
Forum -
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
List Contribution Web Site -
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Can anybody confirm this? |
Thank you for the info! I just got back from a 10 hour flight time with several
landings. I wish we could do a fly in weekend some where for especially for
us novice TR-1 owners. It would be great to just here from other experienced
owners!!
Steve
Sent from my iPhone
> On Mar 27, 2017, at 4:26 PM, Owen Baker <bakerocb@cox.net> wrote:
>
> 3/27/2017
>
> Hello Steve, You wrote: "Is there an adjustment I can make?"
>
> This is very dangerous. DO NOT FLY THIS PLANE until the friction nut on the bottom
of the nose gear has been properly adjusted.
> See the photo from Keith Miller (thanks Keith) that is attached to this email.
>
> This shimmy can become violent enough to damage the nose gear linkages, collapse
the nose gear, and cause the nose of the airplane to fall down and contact
the runway surface.
>
> I recommend:
>
> 1) Elevate the nose of the plane so that the nose tire is off the ground. (Contact
me if needed for tips on how to do this.)
>
> 2) Attach a fish scale to the shoe holding the nose wheel in the vicinity of
the wheel axle. See how many pounds of pull that it takes to move the shoe from
side to side. This is to establish what the friction level is now. If it is
several pounds less than 27 pounds (which it probably is because of the shimmy)
you must adjust the friction level.
>
> 3) Use a black sharpie pen to number the nut notch above the cotter pin head
as notch 1. Make a vertical mark on the shoe above notch 1 with the sharpie.
>
> 4) Remove the cotter pin holding the large AN320-12 castle nut from turning.
Go around the nut with the sharpie numbering each notch in sequence. This is so
that you can keep track of the notch that is under the vertical mark.
>
> 5) Using a 1 1/8 inch box wrench tighten the nut one notch. Use an ice pick or
similar item to ensure that the new nut notch and the cotter pin hole through
the vertical stub are aligned. Leave the ice pick in place.
>
> 6) Use the fish scale again to move the shoe back and forth to ensure that you
have adjusted the friction to the vicinity of 27 pounds.
>
> 7) Remove the ice pick and repeat 5 and 6 above if needed. When you have the
desired friction level set, install a new cotter pin and lower the nose tire to
the ground.
>
> 8) Go fly the plane.
>
> Any questions?
>
> OC
>
> ===============================
>
> From: pastormac@comcast.net
> Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 1:50 PM
> To: kis-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: Can anybody confirm this?
>
>
> Hi Guys,
> Speaking of the nose gear. I'm getting quite a bit of shimmy on take off and
landing. Is there an adjustment I can make?
> Thanks!!
> Steve
> <IMG_9929.JPG>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Can anybody confirm this? |
Sun-N-Fun is coming up. A GREAT way to meet up. I will be there Friday and
Sunday.
On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 7:36 PM, <pastormac@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Thank you for the info! I just got back from a 10 hour flight time with
> several landings. I wish we could do a fly in weekend some where for
> especially for us novice TR-1 owners. It would be great to just here from
> other experienced owners!!
> Steve
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Mar 27, 2017, at 4:26 PM, Owen Baker <bakerocb@cox.net> wrote:
> >
> > 3/27/2017
> >
> > Hello Steve, You wrote: "Is there an adjustment I can make?"
> >
> > This is very dangerous. DO NOT FLY THIS PLANE until the friction nut on
> the bottom of the nose gear has been properly adjusted.
> > See the photo from Keith Miller (thanks Keith) that is attached to this
> email.
> >
> > This shimmy can become violent enough to damage the nose gear linkages,
> collapse the nose gear, and cause the nose of the airplane to fall down and
> contact the runway surface.
> >
> > I recommend:
> >
> > 1) Elevate the nose of the plane so that the nose tire is off the
> ground. (Contact me if needed for tips on how to do this.)
> >
> > 2) Attach a fish scale to the shoe holding the nose wheel in the
> vicinity of the wheel axle. See how many pounds of pull that it takes to
> move the shoe from side to side. This is to establish what the friction
> level is now. If it is several pounds less than 27 pounds (which it
> probably is because of the shimmy) you must adjust the friction level.
> >
> > 3) Use a black sharpie pen to number the nut notch above the cotter pin
> head as notch 1. Make a vertical mark on the shoe above notch 1 with the
> sharpie.
> >
> > 4) Remove the cotter pin holding the large AN320-12 castle nut from
> turning. Go around the nut with the sharpie numbering each notch in
> sequence. This is so that you can keep track of the notch that is under the
> vertical mark.
> >
> > 5) Using a 1 1/8 inch box wrench tighten the nut one notch. Use an ice
> pick or similar item to ensure that the new nut notch and the cotter pin
> hole through the vertical stub are aligned. Leave the ice pick in place.
> >
> > 6) Use the fish scale again to move the shoe back and forth to ensure
> that you have adjusted the friction to the vicinity of 27 pounds.
> >
> > 7) Remove the ice pick and repeat 5 and 6 above if needed. When you have
> the desired friction level set, install a new cotter pin and lower the nose
> tire to the ground.
> >
> > 8) Go fly the plane.
> >
> > Any questions?
> >
> > OC
> >
> > ===============================
> >
> > From: pastormac@comcast.net
> > Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 1:50 PM
> > To: kis-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: Can anybody confirm this?
> >
> >
> > Hi Guys,
> > Speaking of the nose gear. I'm getting quite a bit of shimmy on take off
> and landing. Is there an adjustment I can make?
> > Thanks!!
> > Steve
> > <IMG_9929.JPG>
>
>
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