KIS-List Digest Archive

Wed 03/29/17


Total Messages Posted: 3



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 05:43 AM - Re: Can anybody confirm this? (mark_trickel)
     2. 08:15 AM - Re: Can anybody confirm this? (Owen Baker)
     3. 03:51 PM - Re: Re: Can anybody confirm this? (Galin Hernandez)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 05:43:27 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Can anybody confirm this?
    From: "mark_trickel" <marktrickel@gmail.com>
    OC Thank you for fielding a few of my goofy questions. On Gear #1 Thanks for pointing out there is a shoulder that the shoe fits around to take into account. I do not have a nose gear on my TR-1. No, I did not mean to try and come up with dozens of washer combinations in order to get the right torque and have the cotter pin slot line up on a single oversized slot. I meant that the Belleville spring disks have a little leeway in them and a stack including them on this gear may have been adequate and you may have been able to zero in on the single oversized cotter pin slot. If you currently have the Belleville spring disks stacked up against the aluminum shoe on gear #3 they will eventually wear into the shoe and the torque setting will diminish and a shimmy may again develop. Even the thinnest of steel washers between the Belleville washers and the shoe would be better than none. Belleville washers are commonly used in industrial equipment as well as consumer goods where a moving joint needs to maintain a given tension. I recently scrapped out an old lawnmower and was surprised to find many them in use. Rich included them on his homemade nose gear that still remains on the stolen KIS TR-1 #1. I asked about the prop because some of the Prince P-tips are carbon fiber covered. I have recent experience working with carbon and that stuff is like steel. I did not mention the engine, when it comes to airplanes and the KIS project Ive been around the block a few times and I know a wood prop strike is different than a metal prop strike. I understand the prop was factory repaired I just thought it was unusual. I understand your desire to have a new main gear made mainly because canting the current gear forward enough to put the gear in the proper position will most likely result in the center part of the gear hanging below the well-depression molded into the bottom of the fuselage. This would require a very custom fairing to smooth the airfow under the belly. If you are considering this move I would consult with Lyle as he was the supplier of the main gears to Richard. Plus, I believe he would be a little more reasonable than the Grove guy. I have redesigned the rudder pedal set up on my TR-1 to lower the floor and make it a little more comfortable and I found that Matco master cylinder prices are considerably less than Grove. A little history on the TR-1 landing gear: Rich introduced his new airplane at Oshkosh in 1991, it had a carbon fiber main gear and his home-made nose gear. The airplane also had a 80 hp VW up front. Kits were selling pretty good and the first builders were flying by 1993. Metal parts were supplied by Ken Brock and a nose gear similar to Richs was designed and produced. Builders that were able to either go to the factory and fly Richs plane or those who had above average piloting skills did OK. Some builders were able to get Rich to come and do the first flights and get a few important pointers. But there were pilots that did not have the ability to figure it out quickly and a bunch of nose gears were getting banged. Back at the factory Rich and the engineers started beefing up the gear. I think there were three versions of the first gear. But still nose gears were getting banged. The engineers Nate and Vance did not always agree but Vance came up with the final articulated arrangement in 1996 or 97, and it was put into production. Builders on their own came up with the idea to extend the elevator and this fix was a great help but not a total solution. Sales slowed and despite Tri-Rs emphasis on the Super Cruiser there just wasnt enough business to keep the company going. In 2000, the designs were sold to Pulsar. During the Tri-R years nobody was able to figure out what was going on, not until a certain young engineer bought a flying example of the TR-1. And it didnt take to long for him to add the final piece to the puzzle the main gear was in the wrong place! Weight on the nose gear needed to be reduced. Now those who frequent the forum are at least aware of the situation but there are many who builders and owners that are not computer savvy and are unaware and therein lies the problem. MT Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=467793#467793


    Message 2


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    Time: 08:15:57 AM PST US
    From: "Owen Baker " <bakerocb@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Can anybody confirm this?
    3/29/2017 Hello Mark, You wrote: 1) "If you currently have the Belleville spring disks stacked up against the aluminum shoe on gear #3 they will eventually wear into the shoe and the torque setting will diminish and a shimmy may again develop." I agree and wanted to avoid that situation. 2) "Even the thinnest of steel washers between the Belleville washers and the shoe would be better than none." I agree, but unfortunately when I use a full depth AN310-12 castel nut (my preference) there is insufficient length of the 3/4 inch diameter portion of the vertical stub to permit that. Lyle made the 3/4 inch diameter portion of my weldments #2 and #3 longer at my request, but he declined to make them as long as I wanted. 3) "Belleville washers are commonly used in industrial equipment....." Yes, I am familiar. In fact Vance and I had an email exchange going on my proposal to use Belleville washers under the heads of bolts clamping wooden props to an adapter or crankshaft flange. See here: http://www.oocities.org/vjaqua/prpblvl.html I had purchased many different Belleville washers and run many tests in an attempt to come up with the right washer. I sort of gave up because of the difficulty in finding suitable washers and Vance passed away. Since that time other people (Paul Lipps and Mark J. Zeitlin) have moved far beyond my initial testing. See here: http://www.cozybuilders.org/Prop_Bolt_Bellville_Washer/ 4) "I asked about the prop because some of the Prince P-tips are carbon fiber covered." and "I understand the prop was factory repaired I just thought it was unusual." Back in 2001 when I initially purchase my Prince P-Tip prop Lonnie Prince was covering some of them with fiberglass cloth. That happened to mine -- they may have used the word composite in describing the prop and I may have paid extra for that feature. You could just barely make out the fiberglass weave peeping through the paint in the right light angle. The shift to an optional carbon fiber covering at more cost came later. By the way, the new Prince prop that I ordered is now sitting in my hangar unused and still in its factory delivery box. I could be convinced to sell it. 5) "If you are considering this move I would consult with Lyle as he was the supplier of the main gears to Richard. Plus, I believe he would be a little more reasonable than the Grove guy." This is news to me and I thank you for it. I am afraid that a new custom made main gear would arrive too late. I am 84 years old and do not have the energy level or time remaining to launch such an effort. My plane will be put up for sale one of these days. 6) ".... there just wasnt enough business to keep the company going." Wasn't there also a lawsuit problem back then? I always felt a bit guilty about that because I had met the gent at Osh Kosh and spoke so highly of my KIS TR-1 and Tri R Technologies that I think I sent him in Rich's direction and it did not end well. I never got any of the details. 7) "Weight on the nose gear needed to be reduced." It is a lousy partial solution, but weight can be carried back in the baggage compartment to help a bit. OC =================================== From: mark_trickel Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2017 8:43 AM Subject: KIS-List: Re: Can anybody confirm this? OC Thank you for fielding a few of my goofy questions. On Gear #1 Thanks for pointing out there is a shoulder that the shoe fits around to take into account. I do not have a nose gear on my TR-1. No, I did not mean to try and come up with dozens of washer combinations in order to get the right torque and have the cotter pin slot line up on a single oversized slot. I meant that the Belleville spring disks have a little leeway in them and a stack including them on this gear may have been adequate and you may have been able to zero in on the single oversized cotter pin slot. If you currently have the Belleville spring disks stacked up against the aluminum shoe on gear #3 they will eventually wear into the shoe and the torque setting will diminish and a shimmy may again develop. Even the thinnest of steel washers between the Belleville washers and the shoe would be better than none. Belleville washers are commonly used in industrial equipment as well as consumer goods where a moving joint needs to maintain a given tension. I recently scrapped out an old lawnmower and was surprised to find many them in use. Rich included them on his homemade nose gear that still remains on the stolen KIS TR-1 #1. I asked about the prop because some of the Prince P-tips are carbon fiber covered. I have recent experience working with carbon and that stuff is like steel. I did not mention the engine, when it comes to airplanes and the KIS project Ive been around the block a few times and I know a wood prop strike is different than a metal prop strike. I understand the prop was factory repaired I just thought it was unusual. I understand your desire to have a new main gear made mainly because canting the current gear forward enough to put the gear in the proper position will most likely result in the center part of the gear hanging below the well-depression molded into the bottom of the fuselage. This would require a very custom fairing to smooth the airfow under the belly. If you are considering this move I would consult with Lyle as he was the supplier of the main gears to Richard. Plus, I believe he would be a little more reasonable than the Grove guy. I have redesigned the rudder pedal set up on my TR-1 to lower the floor and make it a little more comfortable and I found that Matco master cylinder prices are considerably less than Grove. A little history on the TR-1 landing gear: Rich introduced his new airplane at Oshkosh in 1991, it had a carbon fiber main gear and his home-made nose gear. The airplane also had a 80 hp VW up front. Kits were selling pretty good and the first builders were flying by 1993. Metal parts were supplied by Ken Brock and a nose gear similar to Richs was designed and produced. Builders that were able to either go to the factory and fly Richs plane or those who had above average piloting skills did OK. Some builders were able to get Rich to come and do the first flights and get a few important pointers. But there were pilots that did not have the ability to figure it out quickly and a bunch of nose gears were getting banged. Back at the factory Rich and the engineers started beefing up the gear. I think there were three versions of the first gear. But still nose gears were getting banged. The engineers Nate and Vance did not always agree but Vance came up with the final articulated arrangement in 1996 or 97, and it was put into production. Builders on their own came up with the idea to extend the elevator and this fix was a great help but not a total solution. Sales slowed and despite Tri-Rs emphasis on the Super Cruiser there just wasnt enough business to keep the company going. In 2000, the designs were sold to Pulsar. During the Tri-R years nobody was able to figure out what was going on, not until a certain young engineer bought a flying example of the TR-1. And it didnt take to long for him to add the final piece to the puzzle the main gear was in the wrong place! Weight on the nose gear needed to be reduced. Now those who frequent the forum are at least aware of the situation but there are many who builders and owners that are not computer savvy and are unaware and therein lies the problem. MT Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=467793#467793


    Message 3


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    Time: 03:51:17 PM PST US
    From: Galin Hernandez <galinhdz@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Can anybody confirm this?
    Caveat, I consider myself very good with electronics and avionics but consider myself a novice at mechanical =9Cthings=9D so here goe s. I think Rich once told me not to use flat washers between the Belleville washers and the nose wheel fork. I think he said something like with two Belleville washers, they rotate on each other not on the fork. Maybe this is true only if you use two Belleville washers with the narrow portions against each other not if you only use one Belleville washer. FWIW my TR-4 has always had four Belleville washers, two together with the narrow portion against each other, like shown in the attached diagram. Is this correct or did I understand wrong? On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 11:15 AM, Owen Baker <bakerocb@cox.net> wrote: > > 3/29/2017 > > Hello Mark, You wrote: > > 1) "If you currently have the Belleville spring disks stacked up against > the aluminum shoe on gear #3 they will eventually wear into the shoe and > the torque setting will diminish and a shimmy may again develop." > > I agree and wanted to avoid that situation. > > 2) "Even the thinnest of steel washers between the Belleville washers and > the shoe would be better than none." > > I agree, but unfortunately when I use a full depth AN310-12 castel nut (m y > preference) there is insufficient length of the 3/4 inch diameter portion > of the vertical stub to permit that. Lyle made the 3/4 inch diameter > portion of my weldments #2 and #3 longer at my request, but he declined t o > make them as long as I wanted. > > 3) "Belleville washers are commonly used in industrial equipment....." > > Yes, I am familiar. In fact Vance and I had an email exchange going on my > proposal to use Belleville washers under the heads of bolts clamping wood en > props to an adapter or crankshaft flange. See here: > > http://www.oocities.org/vjaqua/prpblvl.html > > I had purchased many different Belleville washers and run many tests in a n > attempt to come up with the right washer. I sort of gave up because of th e > difficulty in finding suitable washers and Vance passed away. Since that > time other people (Paul Lipps and Mark J. Zeitlin) have moved far beyond my > initial testing. See here: > > http://www.cozybuilders.org/Prop_Bolt_Bellville_Washer/ > > 4) "I asked about the prop because some of the Prince P-tips are carbon > fiber covered." and "I understand the prop was factory repaired I just > thought it was unusual." > > Back in 2001 when I initially purchase my Prince P-Tip prop Lonnie Prince > was covering some of them with fiberglass cloth. That happened to mine -- > they may have used the word composite in describing the prop and I may ha ve > paid extra for that feature. You could just barely make out the fiberglas s > weave peeping through the paint in the right light angle. The shift to an > optional carbon fiber covering at more cost came later. By the way, the n ew > Prince prop that I ordered is now sitting in my hangar unused and still i n > its factory delivery box. I could be convinced to sell it. > > 5) "If you are considering this move I would consult with Lyle as he was > the supplier of the main gears to Richard. Plus, I believe he would be a > little more reasonable than the Grove guy." > > This is news to me and I thank you for it. I am afraid that a new custom > made main gear would arrive too late. I am 84 years old and do not have t he > energy level or time remaining to launch such an effort. My plane will be > put up for sale one of these days. > > 6) ".... there just wasn=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t enough business to keep the company going." > > Wasn't there also a lawsuit problem back then? I always felt a bit guilty > about that because I had met the gent at Osh Kosh and spoke so highly of my > KIS TR-1 and Tri R Technologies that I think I sent him in Rich's directi on > and it did not end well. I never got any of the details. > > 7) "Weight on the nose gear needed to be reduced." > > It is a lousy partial solution, but weight can be carried back in the > baggage compartment to help a bit. > > OC > > ======================== =========== > > From: mark_trickel > Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2017 8:43 AM > To: kis-list@matronics.com > Subject: KIS-List: Re: Can anybody confirm this? > > > OC =C3=A2=82=AC=9C Thank you for fielding a few of my goofy ques tions. > > On Gear #1 =C3=A2=82=AC=9C Thanks for pointing out there is a sh oulder that the shoe > fits around to take into account. I do not have a nose gear on my TR-1. > > No, I did not mean to try and come up with dozens of washer combinations > in order to get the right torque and have the cotter pin slot line up on a > single oversized slot. I meant that the Belleville spring disks have a > little leeway in them and a stack including them on this gear may have be en > adequate and you may have been able to zero in on the single oversized > cotter pin slot. If you currently have the Belleville spring disks stacke d > up against the aluminum shoe on gear #3 they will eventually wear into th e > shoe and the torque setting will diminish and a shimmy may again develop. > Even the thinnest of steel washers between the Belleville washers and the > shoe would be better than none. > > Belleville washers are commonly used in industrial equipment as well as > consumer goods where a moving joint needs to maintain a given tension. I > recently scrapped out an old lawnmower and was surprised to find many the m > in use. Rich included them on his homemade nose gear that still remains o n > the stolen KIS TR-1 #1. > > I asked about the prop because some of the Prince P-tips are carbon fiber > covered. I have recent experience working with carbon and that stuff is > like steel. I did not mention the engine, when it comes to airplanes and > the KIS project I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2ve been around the block a few t imes and I know a wood > prop strike is different than a metal prop strike. I understand the prop > was factory repaired I just thought it was unusual. > > I understand your desire to have a new main gear made mainly because > canting the current gear forward enough to put the gear in the proper > position will most likely result in the center part of the gear hanging > below the well-depression molded into the bottom of the fuselage. This > would require a very custom fairing to smooth the airfow under the belly. > If you are considering this move I would consult with Lyle as he was the > supplier of the main gears to Richard. Plus, I believe he would be a litt le > more reasonable than the Grove guy. I have redesigned the rudder pedal se t > up on my TR-1 to lower the floor and make it a little more comfortable an d > I found that Matco master cylinder prices are considerably less than Grov e. > > A little history on the TR-1 landing gear: > Rich introduced his new airplane at Oshkosh in 1991, it had a carbon fibe r > main gear and his home-made nose gear. The airplane also had a 80 hp VW u p > front. Kits were selling pretty good and the first builders were flying by > 1993. Metal parts were supplied by Ken Brock and a nose gear similar to > Rich=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s was designed and produced. Builders that we re able to either go to > the factory and fly Rich=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s plane or those who had above average piloting > skills did OK. Some builders were able to get Rich to come and do the fir st > flights and get a few important pointers. But there were pilots that did > not have the ability to figure it out quickly and a bunch of nose gears > were getting banged. Back at the factory Rich and the engineers started > beefing up the gear. I think there were three versions of the first gear. > But still nose gears were getting banged. The engineers Nate and Vance di d > not always agree but Vance came up with the final articulated arrangement > in 1996 or =C3=A2=82=AC=CB=9C97, and it was put into production. Build ers on their own > came up with the idea to extend the elevator and this fix was a great hel p > but not a total solution. Sales slowed and despite Tri-R=C3=A2=82=AC =84=A2s emphasis on > the Super Cruiser there just wasn=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t enough busines s to keep the company > going. In 2000, the designs were sold to Pulsar. During the Tri-R years > nobody was able to figure out what was going on, not until a certain youn g > engineer bought a flying example of the TR-1. And it didn=C3=A2=82=AC =84=A2t take to long > for him to add the final piece to the puzzle =C3=A2=82=AC=9C the main gear was in the > wrong place! Weight on the nose gear needed to be reduced. Now those who > frequent the forum are at least aware of the situation but there are many > who builders and owners that are not computer savvy and are unaware and > therein lies the problem. > > MT > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=467793#467793 > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > >




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