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1. 04:40 AM - Re: Baggage station for W&B (Owen Baker)
2. 08:13 PM - Baggage station for W&B (Owen Baker)
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| Subject: | Re: Baggage station for W&B |
5/3/2017
Hello Keith, Thanks for the quick response. You wrote:
1) "I also have just re-read the same page ( first time in 20 years) , but
the
92.8 is referring to BL92.8 and not STA."
I can't believe your interpretation of this extract from the manual which is
copied below: "It should be at station 92.8."
Butt line measurements are given in inches, left or right, from an imaginary
line (or vertical plane) that
exists down the center of the fuselage. (See page PRCD R-10 dated May 25,
1992 of the manual.)
A butt line measurement of BL92.8 in this context would be wrong on two
counts: a) It does not give the left
or right information required of a butt line measurement, and b) a butt line
measurement of 92.8 would be
outside of the of the fuselage interior and beyond the ends of the rear
spar.
Further the word "station" and not "butt line" is used in describing the
location in question. So I think that the manual writer actually meant
Station 92.8.
2) "I guess the quickest measurement would be to check the distance from the
rear baggage bulkhead which we do know is at STA 111."
I am going out to the airport today and if I remember to do so I will
measure from the aft baggage compartment bulkhead forward to the aft face of
the rear spar so that we can see
where that spar face is in relation to the aft bulkhead, at least in my
plane.
OC
=========================================
From: Keith.Miller@esa.int
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2017 3:49 AM
Subject: Re: Baggage station for W&B
OC
I also have just re-read the same page ( first time in 20 years) , but the
92.8 is referring to BL92.8 and not STA.
Most of my initial thoughts are based on the fact that i have been also
using STA 91 for the W&B calculations of the baggage . and I wondered how
could i get it so wrong, if as you thought the aft wing spar was located
behind that point.
logically for me, my new thoughts are that the aft wing spar must be
located somewhere between STA 84 & 87 . Why ? well the wing build jig
was
only 36" wide, take off an inch or so at each side for the wing skin
template to fit in to it, take off another inch or so for the aft spar
being recessed into the skin , means its maybe 32 or 33 inches from the
leading edge, which we do know is at STA 53.25
I guess the quickest measurement would be to check the distance from the
rear
baggage bulkhead which we do know is at STA 111. I actually always load the
baggage with heavy items forward so logically its not going to be half
way but maybe 1/3 way . but i think now that I should use some STA a bit
further back .
The manual was pity poorly written and these days i wonder if how i ever
managed to build something that actually flys straight and level based on
the
info provided in it ,
Keith
======================================
From: "Owen Baker" <bakerocb@cox.net>
Subject: Baggage station for W&B
5/2/2017
Hello Keith, Thanks for your input. You wrote: "are you sure the aft face of
the rear spar is at STA 92.8 ?."
Short of doing some measuring I am going by CONSTRUCTION OF THE WING, Page
23, REV 3, of the Builder's Manual.
Here is an extract from that page:
"The aft spar must have a hole for the short push tube to go straight back
from the bellcrank to the aileron control bracket. The tube will be inch
diameter and again be fitted with ball rod ends. Cut a 1-inch hole in the
spar web using a Dremel tool and router bit. Center the hole as low as
possible on the spar. It should be at station 92.8. Check that this is where
your push tube will be located before cutting the hole. This hole can be
opened more later when the aileron is mounted and push rod is in place."
I note that the manual does not say whether that dimension is to the front
or rear of the aft spar, but considering that the aft spar is made from 1/4
inch thick plywood plus some 6 ply BID on both faces of the spar the aft
face of the spar must be not much more than an inch in either direction from
the 92.8 dimension and 92.8 is probably precise enough to use for baggage
weight and balance information.
Please let us know what your measurements reveal.
OC
PS: I became overwhelmed with fatigue while searching through the Builder's
Manual. I just can not believe that I went to all that work over 6 1/2 years
starting back in 1997. Any thoughts of starting to build another plane at my
now starting age of 84 is pure fantasy.
=================================
From: Keith.Miller@esa.int
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2017 6:51 AM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: Baggage station for W&B
OC
are you sure the aft face of the rear spar is at STA 92.8 ?. i re-read my
build manual and couldn't find that location specified ( since its
determined
by the build jig pattern ) . i will do some measurements next time i am at
the airport , but i would have thought it was at least 5 or 6 "further
forward than that based on the build manual specifying that the top of the
seat back is at STA 93.5 and i think the displacement of the seat back is
more than 0.7" .
happy to be wrong
Keith
========================================
From: "Owen Baker" <bakerocb@cox.net>
<kis-list@matronics.com>
Subject: KIS-List: Re: Baggage station for W&B
Sent by: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com
4/15/2017
Hello Steve, Sorry for the slow response -- a few alligators crawled out of
the swamp and had to be beat back down.
You wrote: "The builder of my plane, Richard Kindig had the baggage station
at 91 in."
It does not appear logical to me that the center of the baggage compartment
weight would be located in front of the wing aft spar location.
If your tri cycle landing gear plane was built according to the construction
manual the baggage compartment exists from the aft face of the aft wing spar
at station 92.8 inches to the aft baggage compartment bulkhead at station
111.0 inches. That is a distance of 18.2 inches.
If you assume that the weight of the items in the baggage compartment are
distributed evenly fore and aft then the center of the weight in the baggage
compartment is going to be 9.1 inches aft of the aft face of the aft wing
spar or at station 101.9 inches.
My records show that I am using a measured 96 inches for my plane as the
centroid of the baggage weight location. Considering that the actual weight
center of what is located in the baggage compartment is reestablished every
time you reload the baggage compartment I don't think that one can determine
precisely where the weight center is located down to the exact inch.
I'd go with the 96 inches. Any questions or comments?
OC
PS: While at the airport yesterday I took some pictures of my empty left
baggage compartment -- see attached. Some comments:
0140.JPG: This photo is looking aft at the rear baggage compartment
bulkhead. The top of the seat back is in the forefront and yes, that is the
copilot's headset receptacles located behind the pilot's seat --why? So the
copilot can both see and reach his headset receptacles while strapped into
his seat. Similarly the pilot's headset receptacles are located behind the
copilot's seat. It took me many years of flying many different aircraft with
many different poorly placed headset receptacles to come up with this
preferred location.##
0143.JPG: This photo is looking forward at the aft wing spar at the bottom
of the fuselage interior and the seat back extending upward from the top of
the spar. Notice the items attached to the back of the aft wing spar that
would prevent baggage items from being placed directly against the spar.
##PS: Even when using my new Lightspeed Tango cordless headsets it is
convenient to have the Tango Panel Interface unit plugged in where it is
accessible.
http://www.lightspeedaviation.com/Tango/subgrouping.htm?cat=35717
=========================================
From: pastormac@comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2017 4:47 PM
Subject: Baggage station for W&B
Hi Owen,
The builder of my plane, Richard Kindig had the baggage station at 91 in.
Everything I have seen has it at 96 in. Do you know if they are different on
each individual aircraft or should I go with the 96 in ?
Thanks!
Steve.
To our success, Stephen McIntosh
Message 2
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| Subject: | Baggage station for W&B |
5/3/2017
Hello Keith, Thanks for the quick response: You wrote:
1) ".... logically for me, my new thoughts are that the aft wing spar
must be
located somewhere between STA 84 & 87 ."
I would say that you are right on target with that thought. I did some
measuring on my plane today and came up with the following numbers:
a) Front face of rear spar is at Station 86 1/2 inches on my plane.
b) Baggage compartment rear bulkhead is at Station 113 1/2. Note that this
is 2 1/2 inches further aft than the Station 111 that the manual calls for.
c) Distance from aft face of rear spar to the front face of the baggage
compartment rear bulkhead is 27 3/4 inches. This is the longitudinal space
of my baggage compartment. If we round that 27 3/4 up to 28 and divide it in
half to obtain 14 inches, then that would put the centroid of the baggage
compartment at approximately Station 100 1/2.
These are not exact numbers because of the nature of measuring, but I feel
that they are probably not more than an inch in error in either direction.
2) "... going back to why i think its a mistake in the manual to call it a
station and not BL."
I now agree with your analysis. The difference between Station (lets call it
92 3/4) and Station 86 1/2 as measured on my plane is too great (6 1/4
inches) to let 92 3/4 stand as the location of the front face of the rear
spar.
I still would be interested in knowing any measurements that you come up
with.
OC
=======================================
From: Keith.Miller@esa.int
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2017 8:36 AM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: Baggage station for W&B
certainly going to the airport would clear the matter up once and for all .
( if you cant make it , i am due to go at the weekend)
going back to why i think its a mistake in the manual to call it a station
and not BL.
the paragraph refers to the hole which is to be drilled in the rear spars
of the wing for the aileron tubes . The aileron bellcrank is mounted on
wing rib at BL96 facing inboard which would put it about in line with
BL92.8, and the only way to locate the position of the hole would be to
specify the BL position . Also I cant see the relevance of referring to
any STAtions when building the wings which are not yet mounted on the
fuselage.
I remember at the time of the build having many scratching of my head
trying
to understand what they wanted me to do - and thinking this manual was very
poorly written - ( note i had previously built a kitfox which had a real
build manual with photos and precise instructions )
Keith
==============================================
From: "Owen Baker" <bakerocb@cox.net>
<kis-list@matronics.com>
Subject: KIS-List: Re: Baggage station for W&B
Sent by: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com
5/3/2017
Hello Keith, Thanks for the quick response. You wrote:
1) "I also have just re-read the same page ( first time in 20 years) , but
the
92.8 is referring to BL92.8 and not STA."
I can't believe your interpretation of this extract from the manual which is
copied below: "It should be at station 92.8."
Butt line measurements are given in inches, left or right, from an imaginary
line (or vertical plane) that
exists down the center of the fuselage. (See page PRCD R-10 dated May 25,
1992 of the manual.)
A butt line measurement of BL92.8 in this context would be wrong on two
counts: a) It does not give the left
or right information required of a butt line measurement, and b) a butt line
measurement of 92.8 would be
outside of the of the fuselage interior and beyond the ends of the rear
spar.
Further the word "station" and not "butt line" is used in describing the
location in question. So I think that the manual writer actually meant
Station 92.8.
2) "I guess the quickest measurement would be to check the distance from the
rear baggage bulkhead which we do know is at STA 111."
I am going out to the airport today and if I remember to do so I will
measure from the aft baggage compartment bulkhead forward to the aft face of
the rear spar so that we can see
where that spar face is in relation to the aft bulkhead, at least in my
plane.
OC
=========================================
From: Keith.Miller@esa.int
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2017 3:49 AM
Subject: Re: Baggage station for W&B
OC
I also have just re-read the same page ( first time in 20 years) , but the
92.8 is referring to BL92.8 and not STA.
Most of my initial thoughts are based on the fact that i have been also
using STA 91 for the W&B calculations of the baggage . and I wondered how
could i get it so wrong, if as you thought the aft wing spar was located
behind that point.
logically for me, my new thoughts are that the aft wing spar must be
located somewhere between STA 84 & 87 . Why ? well the wing build jig
was
only 36" wide, take off an inch or so at each side for the wing skin
template to fit in to it, take off another inch or so for the aft spar
being recessed into the skin , means its maybe 32 or 33 inches from the
leading edge, which we do know is at STA 53.25
I guess the quickest measurement would be to check the distance from the
rear
baggage bulkhead which we do know is at STA 111. I actually always load the
baggage with heavy items forward so logically its not going to be half
way but maybe 1/3 way . but i think now that I should use some STA a bit
further back .
The manual was pity poorly written and these days i wonder if how i ever
managed to build something that actually flys straight and level based on
the
info provided in it ,
Keith
======================================
From: "Owen Baker" <bakerocb@cox.net>
Subject: Baggage station for W&B
5/2/2017
Hello Keith, Thanks for your input. You wrote: "are you sure the aft face of
the rear spar is at STA 92.8 ?."
Short of doing some measuring I am going by CONSTRUCTION OF THE WING, Page
23, REV 3, of the Builder's Manual.
Here is an extract from that page:
"The aft spar must have a hole for the short push tube to go straight back
from the bellcrank to the aileron control bracket. The tube will be inch
diameter and again be fitted with ball rod ends. Cut a 1-inch hole in the
spar web using a Dremel tool and router bit. Center the hole as low as
possible on the spar. It should be at station 92.8. Check that this is where
your push tube will be located before cutting the hole. This hole can be
opened more later when the aileron is mounted and push rod is in place."
I note that the manual does not say whether that dimension is to the front
or rear of the aft spar, but considering that the aft spar is made from 1/4
inch thick plywood plus some 6 ply BID on both faces of the spar the aft
face of the spar must be not much more than an inch in either direction from
the 92.8 dimension and 92.8 is probably precise enough to use for baggage
weight and balance information.
Please let us know what your measurements reveal.
OC
PS: I became overwhelmed with fatigue while searching through the Builder's
Manual. I just can not believe that I went to all that work over 6 1/2 years
starting back in 1997. Any thoughts of starting to build another plane at my
now starting age of 84 is pure fantasy.
=================================
From: Keith.Miller@esa.int
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2017 6:51 AM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: Baggage station for W&B
OC
are you sure the aft face of the rear spar is at STA 92.8 ?. i re-read my
build manual and couldn't find that location specified ( since its
determined
by the build jig pattern ) . i will do some measurements next time i am at
the airport , but i would have thought it was at least 5 or 6 "further
forward than that based on the build manual specifying that the top of the
seat back is at STA 93.5 and i think the displacement of the seat back is
more than 0.7" .
happy to be wrong
Keith
========================================
From: "Owen Baker" <bakerocb@cox.net>
<kis-list@matronics.com>
Subject: KIS-List: Re: Baggage station for W&B
Sent by: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com
4/15/2017
Hello Steve, Sorry for the slow response -- a few alligators crawled out of
the swamp and had to be beat back down.
You wrote: "The builder of my plane, Richard Kindig had the baggage station
at 91 in."
It does not appear logical to me that the center of the baggage compartment
weight would be located in front of the wing aft spar location.
If your tri cycle landing gear plane was built according to the construction
manual the baggage compartment exists from the aft face of the aft wing spar
at station 92.8 inches to the aft baggage compartment bulkhead at station
111.0 inches. That is a distance of 18.2 inches.
If you assume that the weight of the items in the baggage compartment are
distributed evenly fore and aft then the center of the weight in the baggage
compartment is going to be 9.1 inches aft of the aft face of the aft wing
spar or at station 101.9 inches.
My records show that I am using a measured 96 inches for my plane as the
centroid of the baggage weight location. Considering that the actual weight
center of what is located in the baggage compartment is reestablished every
time you reload the baggage compartment I don't think that one can determine
precisely where the weight center is located down to the exact inch.
I'd go with the 96 inches. Any questions or comments?
OC
PS: While at the airport yesterday I took some pictures of my empty left
baggage compartment -- see attached. Some comments:
0140.JPG: This photo is looking aft at the rear baggage compartment
bulkhead. The top of the seat back is in the forefront and yes, that is the
copilot's headset receptacles located behind the pilot's seat --why? So the
copilot can both see and reach his headset receptacles while strapped into
his seat. Similarly the pilot's headset receptacles are located behind the
copilot's seat. It took me many years of flying many different aircraft with
many different poorly placed headset receptacles to come up with this
preferred location.##
0143.JPG: This photo is looking forward at the aft wing spar at the bottom
of the fuselage interior and the seat back extending upward from the top of
the spar. Notice the items attached to the back of the aft wing spar that
would prevent baggage items from being placed directly against the spar.
##PS: Even when using my new Lightspeed Tango cordless headsets it is
convenient to have the Tango Panel Interface unit plugged in where it is
accessible.
http://www.lightspeedaviation.com/Tango/subgrouping.htm?cat=35717
=========================================
From: pastormac@comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2017 4:47 PM
Subject: Baggage station for W&B
Hi Owen,
The builder of my plane, Richard Kindig had the baggage station at 91 in.
Everything I have seen has it at 96 in. Do you know if they are different on
each individual aircraft or should I go with the 96 in ?
Thanks!
Steve.
To our success, Stephen McIntosh
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