---------------------------------------------------------- KIS-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 05/17/17: 5 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:29 AM - Re: Fw: Softness in wing? (Keith.Miller@esa.int) 2. 03:45 AM - Re: Fw: Softness in wing? (pastormac@comcast.net) 3. 05:04 AM - Re: Fw: Softness in wing? (Keith.Miller@esa.int) 4. 07:26 AM - Re: KIS Cruiser WindDancer flies (Robert Reed) 5. 05:35 PM - Re: Fw: Softness in wing? (pastormac@comcast.net) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:29:30 AM PST US Subject: Re: KIS-List: Fw: Softness in wing? From: Keith.Miller@esa.int The wing in that area where you step on , has no wing ribs supporting it from inside , the closest wing ribs at BL 24 and BL 45 ( 24 Inches from the centre and 45" from the centre line ), which in my opinion is a design fault , and i wonder why it was not taken into account during the initial design, knowing that high pressure loads are going to be applied when climbing in and out of the fuselage. Its possible to also enter from the front of the wing and there is a rib at BL 32 which adds a bit of support. I find entering from the front easier The good news is that it would be relatively easy to if any damage is on the inner part of the skin with one of those cheap flexible inspection camera, by drilling a small hole on the underside . Assuming there is no damage then I would as suggested drilling a series if small holes in the upper surface and inject some expoxy / micro mix to effectively relace the foam core with a more solid replacement. since you have wing walk paint it shouldnt even be noticeable wit a bit of touching up . Hope that makes sense. From: pastormac@comcast.net Subject: Re: KIS-List: Fw: Softness in wing? Sent by: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com Not near fuel cell. I step on the wing from the back of the wing over the flaps which I have in down position. You can push down on the spot with little pressure before it starts to give. To our success, Stephen McIntosh > On May 16, 2017, at 10:27 AM, Owen Baker wrote: > > > > From: Owen Baker > Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2017 6:42 AM > To: pastormac@comcast.net > Subject: Re: Softness in wing? > > 5/16/2017 > > Hello Stephen, I would not attempt to analyze the problem without actually > seeing it personally, but it could be a very serious problem requiring some > expert composite aircraft repair training to help solve. > > Apparently you meant wing ribs rather than spars in your description of the > location of the soft spot with regard to how far it is from the fuselage. > Just as important is where is it located fore and aft. Is it over the > portion of the wing that contains fuel? If it is over the fuel tank you > could find yourself stepping into fuel someday. > > I recommend that you ask for help from the KIS Matronics group by forwarding > this email to the group. > > Also see here: > > http://www.mansbergeraircraft.com/ > > http://www.aviationpros.com/article/11105657/the-a-b-cs-of-aircraft-composite-repair > > http://www.deltatechops.com/mro-capabilities/view/category/composite-maintenance > > OC > > ========================================== > > From: pastormac@comcast.net > Sent: Monday, May 15, 2017 8:24 PM > To: Owen Baker > Subject: Softness in wing? > > Hi Owen, > Trust all is well? I had a question. Where I step on the Wong to enter the > plane a soft spot has developed. I have a strip to protect the paint and > thought about removing it and drilling a small hole and try and eject some > epoxy in the area. Any thoughts? The area seems to be between the two > spars. The one close to the door and the next spar. It's about a 6 by 6 area > or a little larger. > > To our success, > Stephen McIntosh > > This message and any attachments are intended for the use of the addressee or addressees only. The unauthorised disclosure, use, dissemination or copying (either in whole or in part) of its content is not permitted. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Emails can be altered and their integrity cannot be guaranteed by the sender. Please consider the environment before printing this email. This message and any attachments are intended for the use of the addressee or addressees only. The unauthorised disclosure, use, dissemination or copying (either in whole or in part) of its content is not permitted. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Emails can be altered and their integrity cannot be guaranteed by the sender. Please consider the environment before printing this email. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:45:34 AM PST US Subject: Re: KIS-List: Fw: Softness in wing? From: pastormac@comcast.net Thanks Keith. Hoping it's not a fuel cell leak. I have a soft spot on towards the front where I do not step. To our success, Stephen McIntosh > On May 17, 2017, at 4:28 AM, Keith.Miller@esa.int wrote: > > > The wing in that area where you step on , has no wing ribs supporting it > from inside , the closest wing ribs at BL 24 and BL 45 ( 24 Inches from the > centre and 45" from the centre line ), which in my opinion is a design > fault , and i wonder why it was not taken into account during the initial > design, knowing that high pressure loads are going to be applied when > climbing in and out of the fuselage. Its possible to also enter from the > front of the wing and there is a rib at BL 32 which adds a bit of support. > I find entering from the front easier > > The good news is that it would be relatively easy to if any damage is on > the inner part of the skin with one of those cheap flexible inspection > camera, by drilling a small hole on the underside . Assuming there is no > damage then I would as suggested drilling a series if small holes in the > upper surface and inject some expoxy / micro mix to effectively relace the > foam core with a more solid replacement. since you have wing walk paint it > shouldnt even be noticeable wit a bit of touching up . > > Hope that makes sense. > > > > > From: pastormac@comcast.net > To: kis-list@matronics.com > Date: 05/16/2017 06:20 PM > Subject: Re: KIS-List: Fw: Softness in wing? > Sent by: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com > > > > > Not near fuel cell. I step on the wing from the back of the wing over the > flaps which I have in down position. You can push down on the spot with > little pressure before it starts to give. > > To our success, Stephen McIntosh > >> On May 16, 2017, at 10:27 AM, Owen Baker wrote: >> >> >> >> From: Owen Baker >> Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2017 6:42 AM >> To: pastormac@comcast.net >> Subject: Re: Softness in wing? >> >> 5/16/2017 >> >> Hello Stephen, I would not attempt to analyze the problem without actually >> seeing it personally, but it could be a very serious problem requiring some >> expert composite aircraft repair training to help solve. >> >> Apparently you meant wing ribs rather than spars in your description of the >> location of the soft spot with regard to how far it is from the fuselage. >> Just as important is where is it located fore and aft. Is it over the >> portion of the wing that contains fuel? If it is over the fuel tank you >> could find yourself stepping into fuel someday. >> >> I recommend that you ask for help from the KIS Matronics group by > forwarding >> this email to the group. >> >> Also see here: >> >> http://www.mansbergeraircraft.com/ >> >> > http://www.aviationpros.com/article/11105657/the-a-b-cs-of-aircraft-composite-repair > >> >> > http://www.deltatechops.com/mro-capabilities/view/category/composite-maintenance > >> >> OC >> >> ========================================== >> >> From: pastormac@comcast.net >> Sent: Monday, May 15, 2017 8:24 PM >> To: Owen Baker >> Subject: Softness in wing? >> >> Hi Owen, >> Trust all is well? I had a question. Where I step on the Wong to enter the >> plane a soft spot has developed. I have a strip to protect the paint and >> thought about removing it and drilling a small hole and try and eject some >> epoxy in the area. Any thoughts? The area seems to be between the two >> spars. The one close to the door and the next spar. It's about a 6 by 6 > area >> or a little larger. >> >> To our success, >> Stephen McIntosh >> >> >> > > > > > > > This message and any attachments are intended for the use of the addressee or > addressees only. > The unauthorised disclosure, use, dissemination or copying (either in whole > or in part) of its > content is not permitted. > If you received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete it > from your system. > Emails can be altered and their integrity cannot be guaranteed by the sender. > > Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > > This message and any attachments are intended for the use of the addressee or addressees only. > The unauthorised disclosure, use, dissemination or copying (either in whole or in part) of its > content is not permitted. > If you received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. > Emails can be altered and their integrity cannot be guaranteed by the sender. > > Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:04:30 AM PST US Subject: Re: KIS-List: Fw: Softness in wing? From: Keith.Miller@esa.int If the soft spots are more or less inline with each other it could be that the foam core has started to disintegrate for some reason, most likely fuel seeping backwards . drilling a small hole ( 1/8") in the top surface aft of the wing spar over the soft spot will confirm if its fuel that is causing the foam to disintegrate or something else , but at least you will know and we can start think about how to fix it . ( any sniff of fuel at this point will confirm it) . Doing nothing, if it is fuel, will only make the problem bigger over time. From: pastormac@comcast.net Subject: Re: KIS-List: Fw: Softness in wing? Sent by: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com Thanks Keith. Hoping it's not a fuel cell leak. I have a soft spot on towards the front where I do not step. To our success, Stephen McIntosh > On May 17, 2017, at 4:28 AM, Keith.Miller@esa.int wrote: > > > The wing in that area where you step on , has no wing ribs supporting it > from inside , the closest wing ribs at BL 24 and BL 45 ( 24 Inches from the > centre and 45" from the centre line ), which in my opinion is a design > fault , and i wonder why it was not taken into account during the initial > design, knowing that high pressure loads are going to be applied when > climbing in and out of the fuselage. Its possible to also enter from the > front of the wing and there is a rib at BL 32 which adds a bit of support. > I find entering from the front easier > > The good news is that it would be relatively easy to if any damage is on > the inner part of the skin with one of those cheap flexible inspection > camera, by drilling a small hole on the underside . Assuming there is no > damage then I would as suggested drilling a series if small holes in the > upper surface and inject some expoxy / micro mix to effectively relace the > foam core with a more solid replacement. since you have wing walk paint it > shouldnt even be noticeable wit a bit of touching up . > > Hope that makes sense. > > > From: pastormac@comcast.net > To: kis-list@matronics.com > Date: 05/16/2017 06:20 PM > Subject: Re: KIS-List: Fw: Softness in wing? > Sent by: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com > > > > Not near fuel cell. I step on the wing from the back of the wing over the > flaps which I have in down position. You can push down on the spot with > little pressure before it starts to give. > > To our success, Stephen McIntosh > >> On May 16, 2017, at 10:27 AM, Owen Baker wrote: >> >> >> >> From: Owen Baker >> Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2017 6:42 AM >> To: pastormac@comcast.net >> Subject: Re: Softness in wing? >> >> 5/16/2017 >> >> Hello Stephen, I would not attempt to analyze the problem without actually >> seeing it personally, but it could be a very serious problem requiring some >> expert composite aircraft repair training to help solve. >> >> Apparently you meant wing ribs rather than spars in your description of the >> location of the soft spot with regard to how far it is from the fuselage. >> Just as important is where is it located fore and aft. Is it over the >> portion of the wing that contains fuel? If it is over the fuel tank you >> could find yourself stepping into fuel someday. >> >> I recommend that you ask for help from the KIS Matronics group by > forwarding >> this email to the group. >> >> Also see here: >> >> http://www.mansbergeraircraft.com/ >> >> > http://www.aviationpros.com/article/11105657/the-a-b-cs-of-aircraft-composite-repair > >> >> > http://www.deltatechops.com/mro-capabilities/view/category/composite-maintenance > >> >> OC >> >> ========================================== >> >> From: pastormac@comcast.net >> Sent: Monday, May 15, 2017 8:24 PM >> To: Owen Baker >> Subject: Softness in wing? >> >> Hi Owen, >> Trust all is well? I had a question. Where I step on the Wong to enter the >> plane a soft spot has developed. I have a strip to protect the paint and >> thought about removing it and drilling a small hole and try and eject some >> epoxy in the area. Any thoughts? The area seems to be between the two >> spars. The one close to the door and the next spar. It's about a 6 by 6 > area >> or a little larger. >> >> To our success, >> Stephen McIntosh >> >> >> > > > This message and any attachments are intended for the use of the addressee or > addressees only. > The unauthorised disclosure, use, dissemination or copying (either in whole > or in part) of its > content is not permitted. > If you received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete it > from your system. > Emails can be altered and their integrity cannot be guaranteed by the sender. > > Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > This message and any attachments are intended for the use of the addressee or addressees only. > The unauthorised disclosure, use, dissemination or copying (either in whole or in part) of its > content is not permitted. > If you received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. > Emails can be altered and their integrity cannot be guaranteed by the sender. > > Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > This message and any attachments are intended for the use of the addressee or addressees only. The unauthorised disclosure, use, dissemination or copying (either in whole or in part) of its content is not permitted. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Emails can be altered and their integrity cannot be guaranteed by the sender. Please consider the environment before printing this email. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:26:43 AM PST US From: Robert Reed Subject: Re: KIS-List: KIS Cruiser WindDancer flies Ed, Thank you, I was glad to be of assistance.=C2- I tried for years to keep the site up to date but just as it is with building the plane, life keeps g etting in the way.=C2- I have switched lap tops and operating systems sev eral times over the years and the program I used for maintaining the site w ill no longer work.=C2- Learning a new program for web site maintenance j ust has NOT been high on my priority list and thus I have let the site just EXIST and not maintained it.=C2- I apologize to all for that but have co me to the conclusion that the many hours needed to maintain the web site=C2 -could be better spent on building.=C2- I am glad though that what cont ent is there is of help to other builders. Someday...I will finish the plane and update the web site again Bob Reed 99% done with painting, 85% done with upholstery, 10% done with wiring (mor e if you consider designing), 40% done with final assembly (Wings, Flaps, a nd Ailerons to go) 90% down and 90% to go.... From: Ed Hanson To: kis-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2017 9:41 PM Subject: Re: KIS-List: KIS Cruiser WindDancer flies Bob, I spent many an hour checking out the great information on your web si te during the build. Thanks for the effort building the site. ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Reed To: kis-list@matronics.co m Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2017 10:19 PM Subject: Re: KIS-List: KIS Cruiser W indDancer flies Congratulations Ed, That is wonderful news and Wind Dancer is a beautiful airplane.=C2- I am too familiar with how life can get in the way of our projects and it's a testament to your perseverance to see it through to com pletion.=C2- I look forward to hearing more reports on your experience wi th the flight=C2-testing.=C2- Bob Reed From: Ed Hanson Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2017 9:48 PM Subject: KIS-List: KIS Cruiser WindDancer flies After a long build time interrupted by life in many ways, I was able to finally take my Cruiser around the pattern a few times last Wednesday. I h ad made several long and high land backs on our VPZ 7000' runway earlier so I knew it would fly but wanted the initial pattern flight to depart east o ver fields. Waiting for=C2-acceptable weather and trying to align schedul es was like getting the planets to align. Light rain fell on the hangar roo f when I pulled the plane out but the weather held off=C2-long enough to do the deed. =C2- The plane flew very nicely and since I followed the man ual's=C2-flight test advice for the first flight landing with no flaps, a nd was carrying a little extra speed=C2-on this landing for pucker factor , it just wanted to keep flying until we both decided it was time for a nic e touchdown. I look forward to another get acquainted flight soon before st arting the phase one testing in depth. =C2- I would like to thank all the KIS list members and builders for their advice and help thru the years and also Kent Pyle and Galin for letting me get some stick time in their plan es.I felt very comfortable on the first flight. =C2- I have an injected L ycoming experimental IO-360=C2-running dual p-mags, and factory suggested Sensenich prop.=C2- =C2- For good luck on the first flight, I wore my dad's 1929 flying helmet from his OX5 Swallow days and complemented it with my Light Speed Zulu headset. Seemed to work.=C2-=C2-Post flight inspec tion didn't turn up any problems. My tail feather N71EJ stand for the year we were married and Ed and Judi.=C2-There is a video of the takeoff on ou r EAA Chapter 104 Face book page. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:35:37 PM PST US Subject: Re: KIS-List: Fw: Softness in wing? From: pastormac@comcast.net Thanks Keith. Going to drill the small hole tomorrow. To our success, Stephen McIntosh > On May 17, 2017, at 8:04 AM, Keith.Miller@esa.int wrote: > > > If the soft spots are more or less inline with each other it could be that > the foam core has started to disintegrate for some reason, most likely fuel > seeping backwards . drilling a small hole ( 1/8") in the top surface aft of > the wing spar over the soft spot will confirm if its fuel that is causing > the foam to disintegrate or something else , but at least you will know and > we can start think about how to fix it . ( any sniff of fuel at this point > will confirm it) . Doing nothing, if it is fuel, will only make the problem > bigger over time. > > > From: pastormac@comcast.net > To: kis-list@matronics.com > Date: 05/17/2017 12:46 PM > Subject: Re: KIS-List: Fw: Softness in wing? > Sent by: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com > > > > > Thanks Keith. Hoping it's not a fuel cell leak. I have a soft spot on towards > the front where I do not step. > > To our success, Stephen McIntosh > >> On May 17, 2017, at 4:28 AM, Keith.Miller@esa.int wrote: >> >> >> The wing in that area where you step on , has no wing ribs supporting it >> from inside , the closest wing ribs at BL 24 and BL 45 ( 24 Inches from the >> centre and 45" from the centre line ), which in my opinion is a design >> fault , and i wonder why it was not taken into account during the initial >> design, knowing that high pressure loads are going to be applied when >> climbing in and out of the fuselage. Its possible to also enter from > the >> front of the wing and there is a rib at BL 32 which adds a bit of > support. >> I find entering from the front easier >> >> The good news is that it would be relatively easy to if any damage is on >> the inner part of the skin with one of those cheap flexible inspection >> camera, by drilling a small hole on the underside . Assuming there is no >> damage then I would as suggested drilling a series if small holes in the >> upper surface and inject some expoxy / micro mix to effectively relace > the >> foam core with a more solid replacement. since you have wing walk paint > it >> shouldnt even be noticeable wit a bit of touching up . >> >> Hope that makes sense. >> >> >> >> >> From: pastormac@comcast.net >> To: kis-list@matronics.com >> Date: 05/16/2017 06:20 PM >> Subject: Re: KIS-List: Fw: Softness in wing? >> Sent by: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com >> >> >> >> >> Not near fuel cell. I step on the wing from the back of the wing over the >> flaps which I have in down position. You can push down on the spot with >> little pressure before it starts to give. >> >> To our success, Stephen McIntosh >> >>> On May 16, 2017, at 10:27 AM, Owen Baker wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Owen Baker >>> Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2017 6:42 AM >>> To: pastormac@comcast.net >>> Subject: Re: Softness in wing? >>> >>> 5/16/2017 >>> >>> Hello Stephen, I would not attempt to analyze the problem without actually >>> seeing it personally, but it could be a very serious problem requiring > some >>> expert composite aircraft repair training to help solve. >>> >>> Apparently you meant wing ribs rather than spars in your description of > the >>> location of the soft spot with regard to how far it is from the fuselage. >>> Just as important is where is it located fore and aft. Is it over the >>> portion of the wing that contains fuel? If it is over the fuel tank you >>> could find yourself stepping into fuel someday. >>> >>> I recommend that you ask for help from the KIS Matronics group by >> forwarding >>> this email to the group. >>> >>> Also see here: >>> >>> http://www.mansbergeraircraft.com/ >>> >>> >> > http://www.aviationpros.com/article/11105657/the-a-b-cs-of-aircraft-composite-repair > >> >>> >>> >> > http://www.deltatechops.com/mro-capabilities/view/category/composite-maintenance > >> >>> >>> OC >>> >>> ========================================== >>> >>> From: pastormac@comcast.net >>> Sent: Monday, May 15, 2017 8:24 PM >>> To: Owen Baker >>> Subject: Softness in wing? >>> >>> Hi Owen, >>> Trust all is well? I had a question. Where I step on the Wong to enter > the >>> plane a soft spot has developed. I have a strip to protect the paint and >>> thought about removing it and drilling a small hole and try and eject some >>> epoxy in the area. Any thoughts? The area seems to be between the two >>> spars. The one close to the door and the next spar. It's about a 6 by 6 >> area >>> or a little larger. >>> >>> To our success, >>> Stephen McIntosh >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> This message and any attachments are intended for the use of the addressee > or >> addressees only. >> The unauthorised disclosure, use, dissemination or copying (either in whole >> or in part) of its >> content is not permitted. >> If you received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete > it >> from your system. >> Emails can be altered and their integrity cannot be guaranteed by the > sender. >> >> Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> This message and any attachments are intended for the use of the addressee > or addressees only. >> The unauthorised disclosure, use, dissemination or copying (either in whole > or in part) of its >> content is not permitted. >> If you received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete > it from your system. >> Emails can be altered and their integrity cannot be guaranteed by the > sender. >> >> Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > This message and any attachments are intended for the use of the addressee or addressees only. > The unauthorised disclosure, use, dissemination or copying (either in whole or in part) of its > content is not permitted. > If you received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. > Emails can be altered and their integrity cannot be guaranteed by the sender. > > Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kis-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/KIS-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kis-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kis-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.