Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:45 AM - Re: Weights for KIS Cruiser 4-place (Ed Hanson)
2. 01:49 AM - Re: Weights for KIS Cruiser 4-place (Ed Hanson)
3. 06:08 AM - Re: Weights for KIS Cruiser 4-place (Galin Hernandez)
4. 06:17 AM - Re: Weights for KIS Cruiser 4-place (Galin Hernandez)
5. 06:46 AM - Re: Weights for KIS Cruiser 4-place (M Ketteing)
6. 09:05 AM - Re: Weights for KIS Cruiser 4-place (Alfred Rosa)
7. 10:12 AM - Re: Weights for KIS Cruiser 4-place (Robert Reed)
8. 12:54 PM - Re: Weights for KIS Cruiser 4-place (M Ketteing)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Weights for KIS Cruiser 4-place |
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Weights for KIS Cruiser 4-place |
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Weights for KIS Cruiser 4-place |
As per the FAA FAR: If you communicate with ATC on the radio, then you have
to use the term EXPERIMENTAL as your call sign when you first check in with
them. It is debatable if you have to continue using the term EXPERIMENTAL
for all subsequent radio calls to ATC since the FAR's do not mandate this.
I have found out a few ATC Controllers get real snarky if you don't use the
term EXPERIMENTAL in all your radio calls. Outside the USA you only use the
term NOVEMBER as your call sign. If you do not talk to ATC, like when
operating in a non-towered airport, then use of the term EXPERIMENTAL is
not mandatory.
FWIW: I always use the term EXPERIMENTAL as part of my good Radio Protocol
habit, even when operating at an un-towered airport. YMMV
On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 10:13 PM Ed Hanson <hansoncp@netnitco.net> wrote:
> Hi Bob, glad to hear you are getting close to flying. Like many of the
> other responses my Cruiser has a higher empty weight than plans. The pric
e
> we pay for adding things. My empty weight is 1,493 lbs. LM 565, RM 558, a
nd
> nose 370. CG 40.80=9D.
>
> I listed my gross weight as 2500 lbs. I tested it to a maximum weight of
> 2505 including landing. Mark K has suggested using higher gross weights
> than Rich specified.
>
> It handled fine but I knew I was flying a heavy plane and flew
> accordingly. It should be noted I did extend the elevator by about 2 inch
es
> and have a large trim tab as suggested by some builders. The speeds liste
d
> by Galin should work fine for you.
>
> I don=99t think you will need to announce yourself as =9CExpe
rimental Heavy=9D
> in the pattern.
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
>
> *From: *Robert Reed <robertr237@att.net>
> *Sent: *Sunday, January 6, 2019 7:54 AM
> *To: *kis-list@matronics.com
> *Subject: *KIS-List: Weights for KIS Cruiser 4-place
>
>
>
>
> All
>
>
> I did my weight yesterday and I am heavy. I expected to be a little
> heavier than the prototype but not 300+ lbs. I can account for some of
> that with the dual alternator dual battery electrical system and my heavy
> interior.
>
>
> Could some of you 4-place builders give me your empty and gross weights
> for comparison. Also any comments on handling at near gross.
>
>
> Bob Reed
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Weights for KIS Cruiser 4-place |
EXPERIMENTAL HEAVY is optional. ;)
On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 8:58 AM Robert Reed <robertr237@att.net> wrote:
>
> All
>
> I did my weight yesterday and I am heavy. I expected to be a little
> heavier than the prototype but not 300+ lbs. I can account for some of
> that with the dual alternator dual battery electrical system and my heavy
> interior.
>
> Could some of you 4-place builders give me your empty and gross weights
> for comparison. Also any comments on handling at near gross.
>
> Bob Reed
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Weights for KIS Cruiser 4-place |
I am the current owner of J. Krasinski's TR-4 N150JK and the empty was 1595 lbs.
When loaded with 72 lbs of fuel (1667 lbs) the nose was 519 lbs, left main was
578 lbs and right main was 572 lbs.
This aircraft had a Franklin 220hp engine and a MT 3 blade constant speed prop
and I am sure this was a fair amount of the weight. It also had a very heavy
panel due to the use of an interesting choice of instruments and avionics.
The numbers for N150JK and the others provided show a problem with the main gear
location. Keep in mind that the nose gear should have a minimum of 10% and
a maximum of 25% of the weight at all weights and CG locations. Since the CG
is limited to the range of 13% MAC to 28% MAC you can not achieve this 10% to
25% nose gear load without moving the gear. While moving the nose gear forward
would help this is difficult. Moving (tilting) the main gear forward is simple
and fixes this problem.
Mark K.
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 1/6/19, <mike@vision499.com> wrote:
Subject: RE: KIS-List: Weights for KIS Cruiser 4-place
To: kis-list@matronics.com
Date: Sunday, January 6, 2019, 11:34 PM
Weight Station
Nose Wheel
420.50 -8.00
Left Main
585.00 59.00
Right Main
551.00 59.00
Total
1,556.50
My weights are also much higher than
spec. I knew I was building heavy but
it was a lot more than I expected.
That explains where all the extra
gallons of resin and yds of cloth that I
got went.
I know where 150 lbs are but I'm not
sure I'm prepared for the effort to
remove it.
Robert, could you please give us a
breakdown of how much of your weight is
on the nose wheel and how much on the
mains
Good luck
Mike
---Original Message-----
From: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com
<owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com>
On Behalf Of Robert Reed
Sent: January 6, 2019 5:54 AM
To: kis-list@matronics.com
Subject: KIS-List: Weights for KIS
Cruiser 4-place
Robert Reed <robertr237@att.net>
All
I did my weight yesterday and I am
heavy. I expected to be a little heavier
than the prototype but not 300+
lbs. I can account for some of that with
the dual alternator dual battery
electrical system and my heavy interior.
Could some of you 4-place builders give
me your empty and gross weights for
comparison. Also any comments on
handling at near gross.
Bob Reed
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Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Weights for KIS Cruiser 4-place |
Bob,
Good to hear your that far along and sad to hear you have another obstacle to hurdle.
As far as factory specs go I dont think any Cruiser can match them.
In my opinion the prototype was seriously under built to achieve impressive
numbers. My plane, had I finished it would have been at least 150 lbs overweight.
Yours being 300 lbs over is a daunting problem because of the reduced load capacity
making your plane a 2 or 3 seater.
You can probably overcome this deficit with a bigger engine. The specs are figured
with the prototypes 180 hp Lyc. I believe youre using the 200 hp Lyc. Which
would accommodate some of the added weight. If you get rid of the redundant
battery you can save considerable weight and you may have near the specified
load capacity for the plane.
My nickles worth.
Al Rosa
> On Jan 6, 2019, at 11:34 PM, <mike@vision499.com> <mike@vision499.com> wrote:
>
>
> Weight Station
>
> Nose Wheel 420.50 -8.00
> Left Main 585.00 59.00
> Right Main 551.00 59.00
> Total 1,556.50
>
> My weights are also much higher than spec. I knew I was building heavy but
> it was a lot more than I expected.
> That explains where all the extra gallons of resin and yds of cloth that I
> got went.
> I know where 150 lbs are but I'm not sure I'm prepared for the effort to
> remove it.
> Robert, could you please give us a breakdown of how much of your weight is
> on the nose wheel and how much on the mains
>
> Good luck
>
> Mike
>
>
> ---Original Message-----
> From: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com
> <owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com> On Behalf Of Robert Reed
> Sent: January 6, 2019 5:54 AM
> To: kis-list@matronics.com
> Subject: KIS-List: Weights for KIS Cruiser 4-place
>
>
> All
>
> I did my weight yesterday and I am heavy. I expected to be a little heavier
> than the prototype but not 300+ lbs. I can account for some of that with
> the dual alternator dual battery electrical system and my heavy interior.
>
> Could some of you 4-place builders give me your empty and gross weights for
> comparison. Also any comments on handling at near gross.
>
> Bob Reed
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
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>
>
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Weights for KIS Cruiser 4-place |
Mike and Others,
Nose Wheel - 359Left Main =C2- - =C2-=C2- 611Right Main=C2- - =C2
- 618TOTAL------ =C2- 1588
That includes EVERYTHING needed to fly (Day or Night) including an extra 5l
bs for the second Dynon unit which is not installed yet.=C2- The plane is
outfitted with dual batteries, dual alternators, duel electric fuel pumps,
dual electronic ignition, Dynon 10" Skyview, dual com radios, intercom, AD
SB, Transponder, Dual NAV Antenna (not connected for future IFR Unit), Dual
Com Antenna, Dual GPS Antenna, Dual Pitot Systems, Dual ADHRS,=C2- and f
ully upholstered (poor workmanship on my part) interior.=C2- Only thing m
issing is second DYNON (7") Skyview and Autopilot servos.=C2- It did incl
ude wheel pants which I am working on and were not complete but were at lea
st a couple of pounds over what I expect the finished weight to be.
=C2-I am aware of the added weight for the seats which are over weight by
at least 25-30 lbs for the seat rails and attachments.=C2- The comfort f
actor for my wife and the ability to fully recline was worth the added weig
ht.=C2- (She will have to learn to pack light)=C2- I believe I can find
some light weight rails that will save 10-20 lbs but the seats are still h
eavy.=C2- The two batteries are under the front seats and conversion to E
arth-X would save another 22 lbs.=C2- There are several other areas where
I can knock off a pound or two but it is still going to end up in the 1500
+ lb range.=C2- What I am pleased with is the distribution of the weight
had kept the nose wheel weight lower than I have seen with some of the othe
r examples.=C2- I haven't worked up the numbers for w&b with various load
factors but will try to do that this week.
My mission for the aircraft was for a cross country cruiser that would carr
y myself (170lbs) and my wife (< 110lbs with her purse) and all the baggage
she wanted to carry (put in back seat).=C2- A full load of fuel would be
optional since at our age we only have 3 hour bladders anyway.=C2- ;-(
=C2- I am looking at setting the Gross as 2500 which is based in part on
conversations I had with Rich many years ago regarding the gross weight.=C2
- He indicated even back then that the 2500 gross would be a safe weight
based on the increased strength of the carbon fiber main spar reinforcement
that I have compared to the original all glass main spar and their testing
of various loads.=C2- The comments from the rest of you indicate similar
findings. =C2- I will start out with the current configuration and weigh
t for initial testing and work to reduce some of the weight as testing proc
eeds if necessary.=C2- I am expecting to get good numbers from the engine
with the dual electronic ignition (FLYEFII) and fuel injection combined wi
th the tuned four-into-one exhaust system. =C2-
I am not sure where the rest of the weight is but suspect it is well distri
buted throughout the entire plane.=C2- I would go on a diet myself but ha
ve already dropped 20lbs and if my wife gets any smaller I won't be able to
find her.=C2- So it's down to making it work with what we have until I n
eed to replace the batteries and can find some lighter seat rails.
Wish me luck, and thanks to all who have responded.
Bob Reed
PS:=C2- Memory foam for the seats is HEAVY but the comfort factor may wel
l be worth it.=C2- Also sound absorption adds weight but for long trips c
an be worth it too.=C2-
On =8ESunday=8E, =8EJanuary=8E =8E6
=8E, =8E2019=8E =8E10=8E:=8E36=8E:
=8E13=8E =8EPM=8E =8ECST, mike@vision499.com <mi
ke@vision499.com> wrote:
=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2-
Weight=C2-=C2-=C2- Station
=C2-=C2-=C2-
Nose Wheel=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2- 420.50
=C2-=C2-=C2- -8.00
Left Main=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2- 585.00=C2
-=C2-=C2- 59.00
Right Main=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2- 551.00
=C2-=C2-=C2- 59.00
Total=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-
=C2- 1,556.50=C2-=C2-=C2-
My weights are also much higher than spec. I knew I was building heavy but
it was a lot more than I expected.
That explains where all the extra gallons of resin and yds of cloth that I
got went.
I know where 150 lbs are but I'm not sure I'm prepared for the effort to
remove it.
Robert, could you please give us a breakdown of how much of your weight is
on the nose wheel and how much on the mains
Good luck
Mike
---Original Message-----
From: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com
<owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com> On Behalf Of Robert Reed
Sent: January 6, 2019 5:54 AM
Subject: KIS-List: Weights for KIS Cruiser 4-place
All
I did my weight yesterday and I am heavy.=C2- I expected to be a little h
eavier
than the prototype but not 300+ lbs.=C2- I can account for some of that w
ith
the dual alternator dual battery electrical system and my heavy interior.
Could some of you 4-place builders give me your empty and gross weights for
comparison. Also any comments on handling at near gross.
Bob Reed
Sent from my iPhone
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
S -
WIKI -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Weights for KIS Cruiser 4-place |
The factory TR-4 prototype was not under built to save weight. Every part except
the rudder was the same as delivered in the kits. All layups were done as
in the manuals. Give Rich the credit that was due, he knew how to build light
without compromising strength. In fact his layups were probably stronger than
most others.
He did use the O-360 A1A that is about the lightest. Used a small battery as near
to the engine as possible. He kept the interior to a minimum. There was
no muffler. Minimum instruments and avionics. I can't remember for sure but
at least one of the prototypes (TR-1 or TR-4) did not have lights!
While few of us can build as light and as strong as Rich that is not the only reason
for the large increases in weights. Most of us add more stuff and make
modifications and much of this is not needed and at times is detrimental. I have
seen lots of things done to "make it stronger" that just make it heavier since
the additions were not at the point of first failure. In some cases they
reduced the strength.
Most of the changes snowball. For example using a heavier engine can require moving
the battery to the back. This then requires the use of long and heavy cables
and maybe a larger battery. So 30 lbs added to the engine could end up
costing you 50 lbs or more.
A long time ago a friend bought a real nice GlasAir 3. It was a winner at OSH.
It had a dual 24V battery system with dual alternators and tons of extra crap.
There were 2 electric systems and a DC to DC converter since there were many
12volt avionics. The reason the original builder went with the 24V system
in the first place was to save weight since smaller wire could be used. In the
end he used the same size wire as required for a 12V system. When my friend
ripped it all out and converted to a single 12V system he reduced the weight
by 300 lbs! His aircraft finally became a useful 2 seat aircraft.
Mark Kettering
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