Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:54 AM - flaperon (dmorisse)
2. 04:02 AM - List Reminders (dmorisse)
3. 06:07 AM - Re: flaperon (KFN102LG@aol.com)
4. 06:39 AM - Replacement flaperon foam (Larygagnon@aol.com)
5. 06:44 AM - Re: Another 'Latest update' Re; Newbie flaperon problrm (Lowell Fitt)
6. 07:14 AM - Re: flaperon (Ron Carroll)
7. 07:14 AM - Re: flaperon (Ron Carroll)
8. 07:17 AM - Re: Replacement flaperon foam (Ron Carroll)
9. 07:36 AM - Infrared Temperature Gauge (William J. Applegate)
10. 07:59 AM - Re: Infrared Temperature Gauge (Ron Carroll)
11. 08:54 AM - Re: flaperon (Bruce Harrington)
12. 08:55 AM - Re: Another 'Latest update' Re; Newbie flaperon problrm (Bruce Harrington)
13. 09:47 AM - Re: Another 'Latest update' Re; Newbie flaperon problrm (Ron Carroll)
14. 01:18 PM - Re: Another 'Latest update' Re; Newbie flaperon problem (Ted Palamarek)
15. 02:18 PM - Test (Ted Palamarek)
16. 04:20 PM - Re: Another 'Latest update' Re; Newbie flaperon problrm (Robert Ducar)
17. 05:20 PM - Re: flaperon (JMCBEAN)
18. 06:03 PM - Re: carb adjustments (kitfoxpilot@att.net)
19. 06:33 PM - Re: flaperon (Ron Carroll)
20. 06:42 PM - Re: Another 'Latest update' Re; Newbie flaperon problrm (Randy Daughenbaugh)
21. 06:42 PM - Re: List Reminders (Steve Gandy)
22. 07:19 PM - Re: Another 'Latest update' Re; Newbie flaperon problrm (Robert Ducar)
23. 07:36 PM - Re: List Reminders (Don Pearsall)
24. 07:42 PM - Re: Firewall Insulation (John Banes)
25. 07:51 PM - Re: Another 'Latest update' Re; Newbie flaperon problrm (Ron Carroll)
Message 1
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "dmorisse" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
Bounced, sent to old list.
Darrel
List Janitor
From: "Ron Carroll" <RonCarr@Qwest.Net>
Subject: Another 'latest update' Re:Newbie flaperon problem
After some phone calls and visits I believe we are zeroing in on the cause of my
flaperon problem.
The right flaperon has a lot of 'give' or 'flex' in it when under dynamic load.
It now appears that the flaperons were factory built using about a dozen Styrofoam
ribs. The ribs, each about 3" wide, are spaced and glued inside the
flaperons, with one on each side of each hinge.
As we know, the hinges come through holes in the top of the flaperons to connect
to the rib tails. These holes in the top of the flaperon are open so that liquids
can go through them and enter the inside of the flaperon. One such 'liquid'
being fuel that runs down the wing if an overfill occurs, or the cap leaks.
This fuel literally 'melts' the styrofoam into nothingness, leaving no
support or holding contact for the flaperon skin to spar. I drilled out the rivets
along the trailing edge of the flaperon to find the melted remains of the
ribs lying inside making no contact, supporting nothing.
Because SkyStar no longer sells replacement flaperons I will have to make do with
what I have. To repair this condition I have a couple of options. The first
is to make new styrofoam ribs that will again melt as soon as fuel touches
them. To protect the ribs from fuel I am considering the option of brushing on
a coat of epoxy resin (I believe the epoxy resin will not damage the styrofoam,
but will test it tomorrow), then gluing the protected ribs to the skin & spar.
My question at this time is: What would you consider to be a good bonding
glue for securing the ribs to the skin & spar that wouldn't damage the ribs
or aluminum parts?
If the use of new Styrofoam ribs is not a good option I may then consider the use
of spray-foam, as used in home construction. The foam would fill the void
inside the skin, and adhere to the skin & spar. My fear is that the foam may
try to expand faster than it can escape from the confined space, resulting in
distorted skins. Also, I'm not sure if the foam would attack the aluminum parts.
Any experience with this?
I would appreciate hearing from anyone with ideas, opinions, or experience with
this type of repair work, especially in regard to glues & adhesives, and their
reaction to gasoline.
I would like to recommend that all of us avoid any kind of fuel overflow from our
wing tanks. Also check the gaskets on your gas caps. I'm surprised this
has not been a problem to any of you up until this time, but now is the time to
take steps to avoid it.
I will keep you posted on how this works out.
Thanks,
Ron Carroll
KF3 - In Oregon
Message 2
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "dmorisse" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
Just a couple reminders to you all.
1. If you still have the old kitfox list address (sportflight) in your
address book, please delete it. We're still getting bounces from people
sending to that address.
2. As was illustrated before, if you send a message that has no value
to the list as a whole, please end it on the last line with "Do not
archive". This is probably difficult to remember, but you'll get used to
it.
Thanks,
Darrel
List Admin
Message 3
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: KFN102LG@aol.com
I think you could use a "hot wire process" to make new foam parts for the
inside of the flaperon. There should be instructions on some model airplane
sites for the plans to build a simple hot wire foam cutting device to make them,
I'll see if I can identify some and contact you off list. You can make two
templates of the flaperon profile and use the cutter to make new parts. I have
often used epoxy to protect the foam parts in large scale model airplanes with
gas engines to protect them from fuel and I don't know of any problems using
it on aluminum. There are a number of model airplane manufactures that use
foam wings that may be able to make the parts you need from the templates and I
think there is at least one that just makes custom wings from a customers
template. I'll try to get more info and pass it along. I've used the spray foam
before and I think it would be hard to predict how much the foam will expand
inside the flaperon, you'd have to make a mold to hold the unit in place and
keep it from warping during the curing process and the foam I've used (Great
Stuff) is a good insulator but not very strong.
Larry Gagnon
Model IV/912 just sold
RV6 N6LG 35 hrs
Message 4
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| Subject: | Replacement flaperon foam |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Larygagnon@aol.com
Try http://www.compufoamcore.com/ to make replacement foam cores. His
e-mail is foamcore@warwick.net and phone is 570-828-7396 in Penn. Good luck.
Larry Gagnon
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Another 'Latest update' Re; Newbie flaperon problrm |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
Ron, I have a little experience in what you are attempting.
First, Look in Aircraft Spruce for an alternate to the "Styrofoam" There
are a number of alternate structural foams that are more resistant to
chemical attack.
Second, I would strongly recommend a two part expanding foam if you are
going to go that route with this caution. I would make a test lay-up with
scrap aluminum to see if the aluminum is attacked. I was once told that it
would attack aluminum. I used it in the lift strut fairings and made a test
piece using 4130 tubing and found no problem after 6 years. I used a one
part (spray can type) on a project and it takes a long time for it to cure
at any distance from the surface as I it is cured by exposure to air. Also
be very careful that you are able to eliminate any spill over into the hinge
area as it is extremely difficult to remove from tight spaces. In one
application I used it for, I found that the two part was pretty well
resistant to fuel in short exposures, but softened if immersed for too long
a time.
Three, If you do intend to use the foam of either type, you will need to
fabricate something to contain the expansion. It will distort the flaperon
if not inserted in exactly the right amount. If you can devise a way to
essentially replace the ribs only so there would be enough room for the foam
to expand laterally, there might not be a problem.. It would be great if
you could get a length of someone's damaged flaperon so you could do some
experimenting.
I am particularly interested in what you decide to do and how it works.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Carroll" <RonCarr@Qwest.Net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Another 'Latest update' Re; Newbie flaperon problrm
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ron Carroll" <RonCarr@Qwest.Net>
>
> I 'think' I sent this to the wrong list, so here it is again. Enjoy it
again!
>
> After some phone calls and visits I believe we are zeroing in on the cause
of my flaperon problem.
>
> The right flaperon has a lot of 'give' or 'flex' in it when under dynamic
load. It now appears that the flaperons were factory built using about a
dozen Styrofoam ribs. The ribs, each about 3" wide, are spaced and glued
inside the flaperons, with one on each side of each hinge.
>
> As we know, the hinges come through holes in the top of the flaperons to
connect to the rib tails. These holes in the top of the flaperon are open
so that liquids can go through them and enter the inside of the flaperon.
One such 'liquid' being fuel that runs down the wing if an overfill occurs,
or the cap leaks. This fuel literally 'melts' the Styrofoam into
nothingness, leaving no support or holding contact for the flaperon skin to
spar. I drilled out the rivets along the trailing edge of the flaperon to
find the melted remains of the ribs lying inside making no contact,
supporting nothing.
>
> Because SkyStar no longer sells replacement flaperons I will have to make
do with what I have. To repair this condition I have a couple of options.
The first is to make new Styrofoam ribs that will again melt as soon as fuel
touches them. To protect the ribs from fuel I am considering the option of
brushing on a coat of epoxy resin (I believe the epoxy resin will not damage
the Styrofoam, but will test it tomorrow), then gluing the protected ribs to
the skin & spar. My question at this time is: What would you consider to
be a good bonding glue for securing the ribs to the skin & spar that
wouldn't damage the ribs or aluminum parts?
>
> If the use of new Styrofoam ribs is not a good option I may then consider
the use of spray-foam, as used in home construction. The foam would fill
the void inside the skin, and adhere to the skin & spar. My fear is that
the foam may try to expand faster than it can escape from the confined
space, resulting in distorted skins. Also, I'm not sure if the foam would
attack the aluminum parts. Any experience with this?
>
> I would appreciate hearing from anyone with ideas, opinions, or experience
with this type of repair work, especially in regard to glues & adhesives,
and their reaction to gasoline.
>
> I would like to recommend that all of us avoid any kind of fuel overflow
from our wing tanks. Also check the gaskets on your gas caps. I'm
surprised this has not been a problem to any of you up until this time, but
now is the time to take steps to avoid it.
>
> I will keep you posted on how this works out.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ron Carroll
> KF3 - In Oregon
>
>
Message 6
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ron Carroll" <RonCarr@Qwest.Net>
As a 'P.S.', what kind of epoxy do you use to seal the foam?
Ron Carroll
KF3 - In Oregon
----- Original Message -----
From: KFN102LG@aol.com
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 6:07 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: flaperon
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: KFN102LG@aol.com
I think you could use a "hot wire process" to make new foam parts for the
inside of the flaperon. There should be instructions on some model airplane
sites for the plans to build a simple hot wire foam cutting device to make them,
I'll see if I can identify some and contact you off list. You can make two
templates of the flaperon profile and use the cutter to make new parts. I have
often used epoxy to protect the foam parts in large scale model airplanes with
gas engines to protect them from fuel and I don't know of any problems using
it on aluminum. There are a number of model airplane manufactures that use
foam wings that may be able to make the parts you need from the templates and
I
think there is at least one that just makes custom wings from a customers
template. I'll try to get more info and pass it along. I've used the spray
foam
before and I think it would be hard to predict how much the foam will expand
inside the flaperon, you'd have to make a mold to hold the unit in place and
keep it from warping during the curing process and the foam I've used (Great
Stuff) is a good insulator but not very strong.
Larry Gagnon
Model IV/912 just sold
RV6 N6LG 35 hrs
Message 7
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ron Carroll" <RonCarr@Qwest.Net>
Thanks for your advice Larry. We have a hotwire foam cutter in our local EAA Chapter
for our use, so don't bother unless others can benefit.
I was under the impression that the builders spray foam, when cured, is tough,
gasoline proof, and very adhesive, making it a good candidate. The expansion
can hopefully be controlled by being sure there is provision for it to escape
as it expands. I'm leaning strongly in that direction.
The inboard end of the flaperon will have to have a hard plug to rigidly hold
the skin in place, and somehow securely bond to the spar. I haven't figured
this out yet, but hope for suggestions from the list.
Ron Carroll
KF3 - In Oregon
----- Original Message -----
From: KFN102LG@aol.com
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 6:07 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: flaperon
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: KFN102LG@aol.com
I think you could use a "hot wire process" to make new foam parts for the
inside of the flaperon. There should be instructions on some model airplane
sites for the plans to build a simple hot wire foam cutting device to make them,
I'll see if I can identify some and contact you off list. You can make two
templates of the flaperon profile and use the cutter to make new parts. I have
often used epoxy to protect the foam parts in large scale model airplanes with
gas engines to protect them from fuel and I don't know of any problems using
it on aluminum. There are a number of model airplane manufactures that use
foam wings that may be able to make the parts you need from the templates and
I
think there is at least one that just makes custom wings from a customers
template. I'll try to get more info and pass it along. I've used the spray
foam
before and I think it would be hard to predict how much the foam will expand
inside the flaperon, you'd have to make a mold to hold the unit in place and
keep it from warping during the curing process and the foam I've used (Great
Stuff) is a good insulator but not very strong.
Larry Gagnon
Model IV/912 just sold
RV6 N6LG 35 hrs
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Replacement flaperon foam |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ron Carroll" <RonCarr@Qwest.Net>
Boy! What a neat service this guy offers. However, I think it would be overkill
to have him make a half-dozen little half ribs. Setup costs would probably
be more than the whole flaperon. I think I'll give it a shot locally, and if
I am unable to get a good fit I will contact him.
Thanks again Larry,
Ron Carroll - do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Larygagnon@aol.com
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 6:39 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Replacement flaperon foam
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Larygagnon@aol.com
Try http://www.compufoamcore.com/ to make replacement foam cores. His
e-mail is foamcore@warwick.net and phone is 570-828-7396 in Penn. Good luck.
Larry Gagnon
Message 9
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| Subject: | Infrared Temperature Gauge |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "William J. Applegate" <bigapple@gct21.net>
Hi Troops,
I've been concerned about accurately determining the temperature of
irons used in the heat shrinking process when covering. I found an all
digital large readout screen infrared temperature gauge at this
address: http://www.towerhobbies.com/products/duratrax/dtxp3100.htm.
For only $24.99 it could really be a winner. I'm going to give it a try.
Best regards to all............Bill Applegate........Series
7...............Tucson, AZ
Larygagnon@aol.com wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Larygagnon@aol.com
>
> Try http://www.compufoamcore.com/ to make replacement foam cores. His
>e-mail is foamcore@warwick.net and phone is 570-828-7396 in Penn. Good luck.
>
>Larry Gagnon
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Infrared Temperature Gauge |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ron Carroll" <RonCarr@Qwest.Net>
I am a member of the 'Noon Patrol', a group of 13 EAA members (Chapter 292 in Independence,
Oregon) who built fourteen 7/8 scale Nieuport-lls. We used a digital
temperature gauge in our covering shop, and it worked perfectly for us.
No guesswork, no surprises, always a great ironing job!
Ron Carroll
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: William J. Applegate
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 7:34 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Infrared Temperature Gauge
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "William J. Applegate" <bigapple@gct21.net>
Hi Troops,
I've been concerned about accurately determining the temperature of
irons used in the heat shrinking process when covering. I found an all
digital large readout screen infrared temperature gauge at this
address: http://www.towerhobbies.com/products/duratrax/dtxp3100.htm.
For only $24.99 it could really be a winner. I'm going to give it a try.
Best regards to all............Bill Applegate........Series
7...............Tucson, AZ
Larygagnon@aol.com wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Larygagnon@aol.com
>
> Try http://www.compufoamcore.com/ to make replacement foam cores. His
>e-mail is foamcore@warwick.net and phone is 570-828-7396 in Penn. Good luck.
>
>Larry Gagnon
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Harrington" <aerowood@mcsi.net>
Hi Ron,
I use Marine Tex, from local Ace Hardware. Sandable.
Bruce
> As a 'P.S.', what kind of epoxy do you use to seal the foam?
>
> Ron Carroll
> KF3 - In Oregon
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Another 'Latest update' Re; Newbie flaperon problrm |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Harrington" <aerowood@mcsi.net>
Hi Ron,
The leaky fuel tank caps have been covered many times in the past.
Check the old archives.
bh
> I would like to recommend that all of us avoid any kind of fuel overflow from
our wing tanks. Also check the gaskets on your gas caps. I'm surprised this
has not been a problem to any of you up until this time, but now is the time to
take steps to avoid it.
>
> I will keep you posted on how this works out.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ron Carroll
> KF3 - In Oregon
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Another 'Latest update' Re; Newbie flaperon problrm |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ron Carroll" <RonCarr@Qwest.Net>
Thanks for the heads-up Bruce, but I was referring to the melted foam rib problem
caused by a fuel leak, not the leak itself. I should try to make myself
more clear.
Ron Carroll
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Harrington
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 8:57 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Another 'Latest update' Re; Newbie flaperon problrm
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Harrington" <aerowood@mcsi.net>
Hi Ron,
The leaky fuel tank caps have been covered many times in the past.
Check the old archives.
bh
> I would like to recommend that all of us avoid any kind of fuel overflow from
our wing tanks. Also check the gaskets on your gas caps. I'm surprised this
has not been a problem to any of you up until this time, but now is the time
to
take steps to avoid it.
>
> I will keep you posted on how this works out.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ron Carroll
> KF3 - In Oregon
Message 14
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| Subject: | Another 'Latest update' Re; Newbie flaperon problem |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ted Palamarek" <temco@telusplanet.net>
Ron
If you decide to use foam ---- there is a type of foam that
you can buy in the handy dispenser cans that does not
expand. Both 3M and Great Stuff make a non expanding foam.
I have used it on rebuilding a motor home door about six
years ago and the door is as good as new today. I purchased
the foam at our local Home Depot store. It sticks really
well to just about any material. Do not use a product made
by Dap as this foam seems to deteriorate quickly. One glue
you might consider is 3M 5200. This is great stuff and is
used extensively in the marine environment. I would do a
test on Styrofoam before using it. It sticks to just about
anything and is a single component, cartridge dispensable
glue.
Ted P
-
Subject: Kitfox-List: Another 'Latest update' Re; Newbie
flaperon
problrm
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ron Carroll"
<RonCarr@Qwest.Net>
I 'think' I sent this to the wrong list, so here it is
again. Enjoy it again!
After some phone calls and visits I believe we are zeroing
in on the cause of my flaperon problem.
The right flaperon has a lot of 'give' or 'flex' in it when
under dynamic load. It now appears that the flaperons were
factory built using about a dozen Styrofoam ribs. The
ribs, each about 3" wide, are spaced and glued inside the
flaperons, with one on each side of each hinge.
As we know, the hinges come through holes in the top of the
flaperons to connect to the rib tails. These holes in the
top of the flaperon are open so that liquids can go through
them and enter the inside of the flaperon. One such
'liquid' being fuel that runs down the wing if an overfill
occurs, or the cap leaks. This fuel literally 'melts' the
Styrofoam into nothingness, leaving no support or holding
contact for the flaperon skin to spar. I drilled out the
rivets along the trailing edge of the flaperon to find the
melted remains of the ribs lying inside making no contact,
supporting nothing.
Because SkyStar no longer sells replacement flaperons I will
have to make do with what I have. To repair this condition I
have a couple of options. The first is to make new
Styrofoam ribs that will again melt as soon as fuel touches
them. To protect the ribs from fuel I am considering the
option of brushing on a coat of epoxy resin (I believe the
epoxy resin will not damage the Styrofoam, but will test it
tomorrow), then gluing the protected ribs to the skin &
spar. My question at this time is: What would you
consider to be a good bonding glue for securing the ribs to
the skin & spar that wouldn't damage the ribs or aluminum
parts?
If the use of new Styrofoam ribs is not a good option I may
then consider the use of spray-foam, as used in home
construction. The foam would fill the void inside the
skin, and adhere to the skin & spar. My fear is that the
foam may try to expand faster than it can escape from the
confined space, resulting in distorted skins. Also, I'm not
sure if the foam would attack the aluminum parts. Any
experience with this?
I would appreciate hearing from anyone with ideas, opinions,
or experience with this type of repair work, especially in
regard to glues & adhesives, and their reaction to gasoline.
I would like to recommend that all of us avoid any kind of
fuel overflow from our wing tanks. Also check the gaskets
on your gas caps. I'm surprised this has not been a
problem to any of you up until this time, but now is the
time to take steps to avoid it.
I will keep you posted on how this works out.
Thanks,
Ron Carroll
KF3 - In Oregon
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Message 15
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ted Palamarek" <temco@telusplanet.net>
Test --- sent a an E-mail re Ron's flaperon problem but
haven't seen it come back on the Kitfox list??????
do not archive
Ted P
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Another 'Latest update' Re; Newbie flaperon problrm |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Robert Ducar" <aeropup1@charter.net>
The foam that was used in the flaperons was not Styrofoam. It is a urethane
based foam produced by a company located in Tacoma Washington - General
Plastics Co. They are still in business. This foam is not to be hot wired
cause urethanes degrade into some real nasty compounds when heated above
600F. The foam should be machined or routed into the correct rib form. I
am not sure what density foam was used but if you give then a call they
could probably tell you which one. BTW there are other manufactures of the
same type of foam.
Bonding of the foam can be done using the 3M-2216 or Hysol
(Locktite)9396,9377 etc. paste adhesives. Just make sure the aluminum is
clean and free of old adhesive. Once you clean it and remove all residues
get it bonded quickly cause the oxides you just removed will reform quickly.
Bob Ducar
Mod IV-1200, 582
Ft Worth, TX
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Carroll" <RonCarr@qwest.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Another 'Latest update' Re; Newbie flaperon problrm
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ron Carroll" <RonCarr@Qwest.Net>
>
> I 'think' I sent this to the wrong list, so here it is again. Enjoy it
again!
>
> After some phone calls and visits I believe we are zeroing in on the cause
of my flaperon problem.
>
> The right flaperon has a lot of 'give' or 'flex' in it when under dynamic
load. It now appears that the flaperons were factory built using about a
dozen Styrofoam ribs. The ribs, each about 3" wide, are spaced and glued
inside the flaperons, with one on each side of each hinge.
>
> As we know, the hinges come through holes in the top of the flaperons to
connect to the rib tails. These holes in the top of the flaperon are open
so that liquids can go through them and enter the inside of the flaperon.
One such 'liquid' being fuel that runs down the wing if an overfill occurs,
or the cap leaks. This fuel literally 'melts' the Styrofoam into
nothingness, leaving no support or holding contact for the flaperon skin to
spar. I drilled out the rivets along the trailing edge of the flaperon to
find the melted remains of the ribs lying inside making no contact,
supporting nothing.
>
> Because SkyStar no longer sells replacement flaperons I will have to make
do with what I have. To repair this condition I have a couple of options.
The first is to make new Styrofoam ribs that will again melt as soon as fuel
touches them. To protect the ribs from fuel I am considering the option of
brushing on a coat of epoxy resin (I believe the epoxy resin will not damage
the Styrofoam, but will test it tomorrow), then gluing the protected ribs to
the skin & spar. My question at this time is: What would you consider to
be a good bonding glue for securing the ribs to the skin & spar that
wouldn't damage the ribs or aluminum parts?
>
> If the use of new Styrofoam ribs is not a good option I may then consider
the use of spray-foam, as used in home construction. The foam would fill
the void inside the skin, and adhere to the skin & spar. My fear is that
the foam may try to expand faster than it can escape from the confined
space, resulting in distorted skins. Also, I'm not sure if the foam would
attack the aluminum parts. Any experience with this?
>
> I would appreciate hearing from anyone with ideas, opinions, or experience
with this type of repair work, especially in regard to glues & adhesives,
and their reaction to gasoline.
>
> I would like to recommend that all of us avoid any kind of fuel overflow
from our wing tanks. Also check the gaskets on your gas caps. I'm
surprised this has not been a problem to any of you up until this time, but
now is the time to take steps to avoid it.
>
> I will keep you posted on how this works out.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ron Carroll
> KF3 - In Oregon
>
>
Message 17
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "JMCBEAN" <JDMCBEAN@cableone.net>
Ron,
Just a thought... what about using the foam ribs we are using today on
the
flaperons and sand them to shape for yours. The flaperon ribs are made from
a different material then that of the model 1 and 2 days.
Blue Skies!!
John & Debra McBean
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: carb adjustments |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kitfoxpilot@att.net
Thanks abunch for the pointers! I spoke to a guy out in VA, not far from my
home. He developed a conversion for the 912 that boost the horsepower from
80 to 95 called the 912 EXTRA. He's going to come by after Thanksgiving to
help me do the adjustments. Also will get him to look over my plane. He
built a Fox and a Pulsar. I can't wait to fly!!!
Ray
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jimshumaker" <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net>
>
> Ray
>
> While working around the Prop it is always a good idea to walk to the wing
> tip before moving away from the wing to walk around. Not just to keep
> plenty of distance between you and the prop, it also gives distance from any
> debri that might be slung by the prop.
>
> What kind of balance gauges do you have?
>
> Have fun and be careful.
>
> Jim Shumaker
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <kitfoxpilot@att.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: carb adjustments
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kitfoxpilot@att.net
> >
> > Jim,
> >
> > Thanks abunch for your reply. I will enlist the help of a friend, to sit
> in
> > the plane while I do the adjustments.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Ray Gignac
> > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jimshumaker"
> <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net>
> > >
> > > Ray
> > >
> > > You probably need to adjust the stop screws for the throttle cables so
> that
> > > they can close the butterflys some more. The stop plates are adjusted
> > > evenly and then the cables are adjusted to equal length by using a
> feeler
> > > gauge between the stop plate and the throttle lever. The idle adjust
> screws
> > > are turned a turn and a half out from full in. The carb balance gauges
> are
> > > connected to the hose barbs next to the idle adjust screws. The
> crossover
> > > tube is blocked between the carbs. (I pull the hose and tape the ends.)
> > > The engine is run and the cables are adjusted for smooth idle by turning
> the
> > > cable locking nuts in the cockpit tighter or looser to balance the
> synchro
> > > gauge. The idle adjust screws are turned only if the cable adjustment
> is
> > > too coarse for evening the synchro gauges.
> > >
> > > After the gauges are equal vacuum at idle (between 1800 and 2100 rpm)
> then
> > > the throttle is opened and the vacuum should drop evenly. The engine is
> > > returned to idle and the gauges should remain the even. This verifies
> > > synchonicity.
> > >
> > > The engine is then slowed to minimimum smooth idle. about 1800 rpm.
> Then
> > > the throttle stops are adjusted to the throttle lever position. This
> can be
> > > done with the engine off. The throttle is left in the minimum smooth
> idle
> > > position at engine shutdown and a feeler gauge is placed between the
> stop
> > > plate and the throttle lever. I use about an 0.008. The stop plate is
> > > advanced to the throttle lever until drag is felt on the feeler. Then
> the
> > > carb on the other side is adjusted the same way. The feeler gauge used
> to
> > > limit the movement of the stop plate to the throttle lever. When
> done
> > > this way the stop plate is not touching on one side and affecting the
> > > adjustment of the stop plate on the other side.
> > >
> > > Would help you if you lived a couple thousand miles closer.
> > >
> > > Jim Shumaker
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "dmorisse" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
> > > To: "Kitfox List" <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> > > Subject: Kitfox-List: carb adjustments
> > >
> > >
> > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "dmorisse"
> <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
> > > >
> > > > Bounced, sent to old List.
> > > > Darrel
> > > > List Janitor
> > > >
> > > > Tue, 18 Nov 2003 02:40:50 +0000
> > > > From: kitfoxpilot@att.net
> > > > To: Kitfox@sportflight.com
> > > > Subject: Carb Adjustments
> > > > Is there anyone in or close to the Wash DC metro area that could
> assist me
> > > > in
> > > > proper carb adjustments for my 912S. I did the mech sync but my idle
> is
> > > > way
> > > > too high! I do have the guages to hook up to the carbs and make the
> > > > adjustments while engine is running, but could use the help of an
> expert.
> > > > Anyone?
> > > > Ray Gignac
> > > > (301) 518-2262
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 19
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ron Carroll" <RonCarr@Qwest.Net>
John;
The first thing that comes to mind is: Is the new stuff fuel proof? Also, what
is used to stick it to the inside of the skin & spar? I experimented with
some spray foam today and found it would not stick tightly to the aluminum skin.
It actually peeled off without much effort.
If the new foam is acceptable, is it available in small quantities? It looks
like I'll need about 5 pieces roughly 3 or 4 inches wide. Sanding to fit would
not be a problem.
As a part of the fix, and as a precautionary measure, should there be drain holes
in the lower trailing edge of the flaperons to allow water and other liquids
to drain out. Without drain holes the water is trapped and will cause corrosion
and possible imbalance.
Thanks for your concerns,
Ron Carroll
KF3 - In Oregon
----- Original Message -----
From: JMCBEAN
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 5:21 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: flaperon
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "JMCBEAN" <JDMCBEAN@cableone.net>
Ron,
Just a thought... what about using the foam ribs we are using today on
the
flaperons and sand them to shape for yours. The flaperon ribs are made from
a different material then that of the model 1 and 2 days.
Blue Skies!!
John & Debra McBean
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
Message 20
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| Subject: | Another 'Latest update' Re; Newbie flaperon problrm |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
That is interesting that it was a urethane and was dissolved by the
gasoline. I would expect a polyurethane to be fairly resistant to
gasoline. Maybe alcohol in a gas blend would put the polyurethane more
at risk. ??
Randy
.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert
Ducar
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Another 'Latest update' Re; Newbie flaperon
problrm
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Robert Ducar" <aeropup1@charter.net>
The foam that was used in the flaperons was not Styrofoam. It is a
urethane
based foam produced by a company located in Tacoma Washington - General
Plastics Co. They are still in business. This foam is not to be hot
wired
cause urethanes degrade into some real nasty compounds when heated above
600F. The foam should be machined or routed into the correct rib form.
I
am not sure what density foam was used but if you give then a call they
could probably tell you which one. BTW there are other manufactures of
the
same type of foam.
Bonding of the foam can be done using the 3M-2216 or Hysol
(Locktite)9396,9377 etc. paste adhesives. Just make sure the aluminum
is
clean and free of old adhesive. Once you clean it and remove all
residues
get it bonded quickly cause the oxides you just removed will reform
quickly.
Bob Ducar
Mod IV-1200, 582
Ft Worth, TX
Message 21
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Gandy" <s.gandy@comcast.net>
Darrel
I am receiving duplicate e-mails for everything coming from the new
list. Do I have something set wrong on my computer?
Thanks, Steve Gandy
s.gandy@comcast.net
Aeronca L-3C N48540
Kitfox 6 N540KF (Building)
"Do not archive"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dmorisse
Subject: Kitfox-List: List Reminders
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "dmorisse"
<morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
Just a couple reminders to you all.
1. If you still have the old kitfox list address (sportflight) in
your
address book, please delete it. We're still getting bounces from people
sending to that address.
2. As was illustrated before, if you send a message that has no
value
to the list as a whole, please end it on the last line with "Do not
archive". This is probably difficult to remember, but you'll get used
to
it.
Thanks,
Darrel
List Admin
==
==
==
==
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | Re: Another 'Latest update' Re; Newbie flaperon problrm |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Robert Ducar" <aeropup1@charter.net>
Randy,
There are different types of urethanes out there (no I won't give you a
chemistry lesson on aliphatic and aromatic urethanes!).
The basic forms of solid elastomers and foams differ in solvent resistance.
Depending on how they are formulated urethane foams will deteriorate with
fuel as quickly as Styrofoam will with acetone. generally speaking, higher
density foams will last longer than lower density foams will. Coating and
sealing the surface with an epoxy (West Systems or equivalent) is a good
start.
Trying to bond to a sanded aluminum surface is a crap shoot at best. Major
aerospace companies have facilities to prep the aluminum surfaces for
corrosion resistance and bond preparation. This is to get rid of the weak
oxides which readily form after sanding with stronger, corrosion resistant
ones. Please Note:Alodine is not a bond surface preparation. It is used
for corrosion resistance. There are some surface preparations that the
military and Boeing have started to use for repair. These are based on
silane technology and are available from A-C Technologies. They are called
SOLGEL and BOEGEL One must be trained in the application of these materials
and they must be applied correctly. But when they are applied correctly
they are equal in mechanical performance to the Sulfuric/Sodium Dichromate
acid annodize or the Phosphoric acid anodize.
Bob Ducar
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Another 'Latest update' Re; Newbie flaperon
problrm
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh"
<rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
>
> That is interesting that it was a urethane and was dissolved by the
> gasoline. I would expect a polyurethane to be fairly resistant to
> gasoline. Maybe alcohol in a gas blend would put the polyurethane more
> at risk. ??
>
> Randy
>
> .
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert
> Ducar
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Another 'Latest update' Re; Newbie flaperon
> problrm
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Robert Ducar" <aeropup1@charter.net>
>
> The foam that was used in the flaperons was not Styrofoam. It is a
> urethane
> based foam produced by a company located in Tacoma Washington - General
> Plastics Co. They are still in business. This foam is not to be hot
> wired
> cause urethanes degrade into some real nasty compounds when heated above
> 600F. The foam should be machined or routed into the correct rib form.
> I
> am not sure what density foam was used but if you give then a call they
> could probably tell you which one. BTW there are other manufactures of
> the
> same type of foam.
> Bonding of the foam can be done using the 3M-2216 or Hysol
> (Locktite)9396,9377 etc. paste adhesives. Just make sure the aluminum
> is
> clean and free of old adhesive. Once you clean it and remove all
> residues
> get it bonded quickly cause the oxides you just removed will reform
> quickly.
> Bob Ducar
> Mod IV-1200, 582
> Ft Worth, TX
>
>
Message 23
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall" <donpearsall@comcast.net>
Steve,
Duplicate emails could be caused by several things. Check your email program
rules to make sure that it is not copying the emails. Are you subscribed
under more than one address?
As a last result, go to the Matronics site and unsubscribe and then
re-subscribe yourself.
Don Pearsall
Message 24
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|
| Subject: | Firewall Insulation |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Banes" <johnbanes@adelphia.net>
Is firewall insulation needed on an S-6 with 912S? If so, has anyone used
the firewall insulation Firewall 2000 Ceramic Blanket or Fiberfrax available
through Aircraft Spruce?
John Banes
Series 6 912S
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Banes
Subject: Kitfox-List: Firewall Insulation
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Banes" <johnbanes@adelphia.net>
I would appreciate a recommendation for firewall insulation.
John Banes
Series 6 912S
Message 25
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|
| Subject: | Re: Another 'Latest update' Re; Newbie flaperon problrm |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ron Carroll" <RonCarr@Qwest.Net>
I'm not sure what kind of foam was used originally. However, I see several different
foams available from Aircraft Spruce, some are fuel resistant, some are
not.
Is alcohol more damaging than gasoline? I bought the plane with 245 hours on it,
but have no idea about the fuel used during that time.
Ron Carroll
----- Original Message -----
From: Randy Daughenbaugh
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 6:42 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Another 'Latest update' Re; Newbie flaperon problrm
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
That is interesting that it was a urethane and was dissolved by the
gasoline. I would expect a polyurethane to be fairly resistant to
gasoline. Maybe alcohol in a gas blend would put the polyurethane more
at risk. ??
Randy
.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert
Ducar
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Another 'Latest update' Re; Newbie flaperon
problrm
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Robert Ducar" <aeropup1@charter.net>
The foam that was used in the flaperons was not Styrofoam. It is a
urethane
based foam produced by a company located in Tacoma Washington - General
Plastics Co. They are still in business. This foam is not to be hot
wired
cause urethanes degrade into some real nasty compounds when heated above
600F. The foam should be machined or routed into the correct rib form.
I
am not sure what density foam was used but if you give then a call they
could probably tell you which one. BTW there are other manufactures of
the
same type of foam.
Bonding of the foam can be done using the 3M-2216 or Hysol
(Locktite)9396,9377 etc. paste adhesives. Just make sure the aluminum
is
clean and free of old adhesive. Once you clean it and remove all
residues
get it bonded quickly cause the oxides you just removed will reform
quickly.
Bob Ducar
Mod IV-1200, 582
Ft Worth, TX
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