Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:03 AM - Re: L/D and props (kurt schrader)
2. 12:09 AM - M4-912 Carb issues (Chuck & Deanna Schieffer)
3. 12:24 AM - Re: L/D and props (kurt schrader)
4. 01:39 AM - Re: L/D of Kitfox Model 4 1050 (kurt schrader)
5. 01:46 AM - Re: Cowling Cover (kurt schrader)
6. 01:50 AM - Re: What is that black powder and what do I do about it??` (kurt schrader)
7. 02:09 AM - Re: CONDUCTIVE GREASE (Robert Beck)
8. 04:03 AM - Re: Rotax 532 cy. sound (David Dawe)
9. 04:48 AM - Re: M4-912 Carb issues (Steve Magdic)
10. 06:11 AM - Performance charts, was-L/D of Kitfox Model 4 1050 (Clifford Begnaud)
11. 06:13 AM - Re: What is that black powder and what do I do about it??` (AlbertaIV@aol.com)
12. 06:43 AM - Re: Hi - Brand New series 5 owner - looking for a little advice : (Roger Standley)
13. 07:03 AM - Re: Performance charts, was-L/D of Kitfox Model 4 1050 (JMCBEAN)
14. 07:20 AM - Re: Coolant temperature sensor and EIS (Randy Daughenbaugh)
15. 07:20 AM - Re: CONDUCTIVE GREASE (Randy Daughenbaugh)
16. 07:41 AM - Thrust Meter was: L/D of Kitfox Model 4 1050 (Randy Daughenbaugh)
17. 08:00 AM - Re: : L/D and props (RiteAngle3@aol.com)
18. 08:05 AM - Re: CONDUCTIVE GREASE ()
19. 08:53 AM - Re: L/D of Kitfox Model 4 1050 (Clint Bazzill)
20. 09:01 AM - Re: CONDUCTIVE GREASE (Dcecil3@aol.com)
21. 09:38 AM - Re: Rotax 532 cy. sound (Bruce Harrington)
22. 09:38 AM - Re: What is that black powder and what do I do about it??` (Bruce Harrington)
23. 10:32 AM - Re: CONDUCTIVE GREASE (Randy Daughenbaugh)
24. 02:59 PM - Re: What is that black powder and what do I do about it??` (Michel Verheughe)
25. 04:40 PM - Re: 2-blade vs. 3-blade (dwight purdy)
26. 08:25 PM - Wondering........ (hausding, sid)
27. 08:58 PM - Re: L/D of Kitfox Model 4 1050 (kurt schrader)
28. 09:12 PM - Re: Re: : L/D and props (kurt schrader)
29. 09:24 PM - Re: CONDUCTIVE GREASE (Dcecil3@aol.com)
30. 09:43 PM - Re: Performance charts, was-L/D of Kitfox Model 4 1050 (kurt schrader)
31. 10:54 PM - Re: L/D of Kitfox Model 4 1050 (kurt schrader)
32. 11:15 PM - Re: Re: L/D and Zero thrust (kurt schrader)
Message 1
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Hi guys,
Yes, a stopped prop is much less drag. Think of it
this way. How much power does it take for your
starter to turn over the engine? Well, with the air
doing the work of turning the engine, that means more
drag. And if the air is turning it faster than the
starter does, even more drag than the equivelent power
the starter would put out. Whether turning or stopped
the prop creates drag, but turning it also has to run
the engine as a pump - more drag. It gets more
complex that that, but that is the basic answer.
You might also notice the drag reduces if you open the
throttle all the way. The engine pumps a little
easier. :-)
During my private pilot training, I once had to shut
down a C-150 in flight. Needed to slow to about 50 to
get it to stop. But needed to dive to almost 140 to
get it to start. Results will vary with different
props.
I talked to a Skymaster owner the other day who lost
the oil cooler on his front engine heading East over
the mountains of S. California. He had to shut the
front one down and feather the prop. The prop stopped
verticle! He bumped it to horizontal and gained
200'/minute climb. Even feathered it is draggy and
even the stopped prop position changes drag too. More
of it is covered by the cowl when horizontal.
Kurt S.
--- JMCBEAN <JDMCBEAN@cableone.net> wrote:
>
> Your absolutely correct Cliff..... Try and get a
> prop to stop on a Cessna
> 150 or 172 sometime... not as easy as one might
> think.
>
> Blue Skies!!
> John & Debra McBean
> "The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
>
> -----Original Message-----
> posted by: "Clifford Begnaud"
>
> I can tell you from first hand experience, it's MUCH
> better with the prop
> stopped.
> Cliff
>
> > Very good Kurt....
> > Here's one for discussion.... With the ratio be
> better with a wind milling
> > prop or a stopped prop ??
> >
> > Blue Skies!!
> > John & Debra McBean
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| Subject: | M4-912 Carb issues |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Chuck & Deanna Schieffer" <cdschieffer@starnetdial.net>
Hi group,
I am a fairly new Kitfox M4-912 owner that purchased it from the original builder
with about 600 hours on the a/c. An A & P and I just finished some maintenance
work suggested by Lockwood, (stator replacement, carb cleaning/rebuilding
and gearbox reshimming) for a 600 hr engine.
Starting to fly the aircraft again after the maintenance work has the RPM dropping
after takeoff while still over the runway from about 5400 to about 4000 resulting
in aborted takeoffs.
Additional info
1. Carbs were mechanically and vacuum syncronized at about 2000 and 3500 rpm after
rebuilding.
2. Ground full power runup to 5000 rpm max does not recreate the rpm drop within
about the 45 seconds until temps get to hot to continue full ground power.
3. I installed a fuel filter, (Lockwood supplied), between the engine driven fuel
pump and carbs, (but have since removed it and put it back to original unfiltered
condition), which hasn't seemed to help the rpm drop.
4. Applying the choke when the rpm drops usually results in a slight rpm increase.
5. I increased the length of the carb overflow hoses from about 4 inches to 18
inches during the maintenance to get any dumped fuel away from the exhaust, but
have since replaced the 18 inch tubes back to 4 inch with no help for the rpm
drop.
Does anyone have any ideas/experience with these issues.
Also, do people use fuel filters with no problems??
With a fuel filter in place will there still be enough gravity fuel flow to the
carbs to keep the engine running if the fuel pump fails??
Although I'm having a lot of fun taking off and landing at the same time on the
runway, I would like to fly more than 500 feet at a time.
Thanks,
Chuck
Message 3
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Remember that the prop is just a wing going in a
circle. Its angle of attack is important too, and
relates closely to slippage. Maybe exactly. I forget
in my old age.
In any case, the slip angle should not be over the
stall angle, or the prop is stalled. Not good. In
normal flight, the prop is a bit like a wing in cruise
and at an angle of attack close to zero, if designed
correctly. Something the Wright Brothers probably
knew before the rest of us.
And like a wing in cruise, there is "down wash" behind
the prop. Its angle is greater aft of the prop as the
air accellerates from added energy. But I don't know
of anyone who ever measures that angle, even prop
makers.
More prop trivia: The air acts like it is going thru
a venturi as it goes thru the prop arc. The pressure
is reduced in front of the prop just like above a
wing, so the air is drawn in from a wider angle.
Since the velocity of the air is at its maximum just
behind the prop, its pressure is at a minimum and the
higher pressure air around it narrows the prop blast
to that hour glass or venturi shape. Then it widens
out again as it mixes with "outside air." But the
fuselage interferes with this and we don't get to see
that good venturi shape in practice.
Kurt S.
--- Randy Daughenbaugh <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com> wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy
> Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
>
> There was an article in the Experimenter (I think) a
> couple years ago that
> talked about the "apparent pitch" of a prop. This
> can be calculated pretty
> simply from airspeed and RPM. - How far ahead do
> you move with each prop
> revolution? I was surprised that in the examples
> that they showed, the
> "apparent pitch" was very close to the pitch from
> the prop manufacturer. I
> would have expected more slippage.
>
> The relevance to Rex's "zero thrust" is that you
> could calculate the "zero
> thrust" engine rpm for any given airspeed. You can
> then set RPM at the
> proper point during your L/D tests. May be the way
> to go if you don't like
> gathering data in silence.
>
> Randy
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Message 4
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| Subject: | L/D of Kitfox Model 4 1050 |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Right on Brian!
And you know better than most where that Vx, Vy and Vs
come closest together too. Throw in some Mach buffet
for lunch I suppose? Is it like riding a unicycle up
there? Just a thought...
But total drag? You need to have a thrust meter in
the cockpit or do a good bit of calculating to get
that graph. :-( If you do the hp (prop) instead of
lbs of thrust or drag (jet) graph, the answers change
a little too. L/D max isn't at the bottom any more,
for example. Getting these graphs done and the
answers can get confusing....
I do think it is a good idea for us to do the testing
and math to have these answers though. But I like the
idea of having a thrust meter in the cockpit where I
can just use thrust and speed to get my answers. Much
easier. You can gather data in one flight and graph
the results ASAP.
I also would like to know the real thrust available
before takeoff, rather than the difficulty of
calculating estimated hp, to figure takeoff
performance at various altitudes on short fields.
The, "Will I make it?" question can become important,
but time consuming and error ridden to answer.
For these reasons I am plan to construct a direct
reading thrust meter that tells you which prop setting
and rpm gives you max thrust and what that actually
is. I have 4 designs and picked one as the best, but
I just don't have the time to build and test it now.
:-(
This thing would help you all with prop comparisons
too. You can directly compare thrust from static to
VNE on one gage. That is the plan anyway.
Do I hear wheels turning out there? :-)
Kurt S.
--- JMCBEAN <JDMCBEAN@cableone.net> wrote:
>
> Touch !! Right out of the aeronautics manual ! I
> believe as the weight
> decreases from gross the curve will move down and
> slightly left.
>
> Blue Skies!!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: posted by: Brian Peck
> If you plot total drag vs airspeed on a graph, you
> get what is called
> the drag polar. This will look like a wide U shape
> because at low speed
> drag is high due to induced drag (drag caused by
> lift) and at high
> speed drag is high due to parasite drag (directly
> related to the
> frontal surface area). The lowest point of the U
> will be L/D max and
> this will be the best angle of climb, the maximum
> endurance airspeed,
> and the minimum sink airspeed. If you draw a line
> from the origin of
> the graph tangent to (barely touching) the right
> side of the U, you
> will get the maximum rate of climb speed, the max
> range cruise speed,
> and the max range glide speed. The shape of the
> curve will generally
> remain constant but will shift left or right as the
> gross weight
> changes.
>
> As you climb you lose both lift and power. The max
> ceiling will occur
> when the power required to overcome drag (at L/D
> max) equals the power
> available. The L/D speed will be the same indicated
> airspeed (not TAS)
> at all altitudes
>
> The drag polar is also a thrust required (to
> maintain 1g level flight)
> chart and when you go below L/D max, it takes more
> power to maintain a
> slower speed. In the AF we call this the "backside
> of the power curve"
> and flying in this region can be dangerous because
> if you lose airspeed
> more power will be required and if you don't notice
> a loss of speed the
> aircraft will continue to slow until it stalls. This
> is very noticeable
> in the U-2 when we fly no-flap approaches because we
> must fly well into
> this region due to the very low drag and high aspect
> ratio of the wing.
>
> Brian Peck
> U-2 Test Pilot
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Cowling Cover |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Is it too much a poor man's thinking to suggest a twin
size wool electric blanket doubled over? It will
never get too hot for the cowl. Don't know if it will
be hot enough in fact.
An electric ski jacket modified to fit the cowl?
Ok, I am cheap...
When I think Nome, I think survival anyway. :-)
Kurt S.
--- Scott McClintock >
> Hey Gang,
>
> No takers for the modeling gig so on to plan B.
>
> Anybody have any suggestions as to where I can get a
> cowling cover for
> my Series V with smooth cowl?
>
> Need to keep that engine warm between hops.
>
> Scott in Nome
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Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: What is that black powder and what do I do about it??` |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Michel and All,
Some plug wires are carbon based and not copper. The
carbon will break down easier and can powder, but it
puts out less radio static and is thus used. I would
hope that Rotax uses better wires than this though.
Kurt S.
--- Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no> wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe
> <michel@online.no>
>
> Dave Savener wrote:
> > Black powder came out of the rear spark plug wire
> connector when I removed it.
>
> I had the same with my 582, Dave. I simply replaced
> the spark plug cap with a
> new one. I guess it was a bad contact within the
> cap.
>
> Cheers,
> Michel
__________________________________
http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: CONDUCTIVE GREASE |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Robert Beck" <trevor@inter.net>
Randy:
The grease you want is called 'Silicon Dielectric Grease', and should be
available at any Radio Shack or electronic parts store, or some auto parts
stores. Works well to keep the juice flowing through electrical connections.
A 6 or 8oz tube lasts a long time.
Robert Beck
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh"
<rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
>
>
> IN the instructions for the electrical hook up, it says you should cover
the
> electrical connections with "conductive grease" to prevent corrosion.
>
> I have always used Vaseline on battery terminals, but I can't believe that
> Vaseline would fit the description "conductive". Do they mean plain old
> bearing grease - lithium (or other) soaps - or is there some other product
> for this purpose?
>
> Randy
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 532 cy. sound |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "David Dawe" <davedawe@3web.net>
Good Morning Bob
Another question.
Plugs out, rotate prop slowly, each cy. ,sound of click, each time they
change direction.Is this normal rings sound.
appreciate your help.
regards
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Robertson" <aerocon1@telusplanet.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Rotax 532 Starter
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Robertson"
<aerocon1@telusplanet.net>
>
> Dave,
>
> I'm a certified Rotax Tech.... what's the problem with your starter?
>
> Bob Robertson
> Light Engine Services Ltd.
> Rotax Service Center
> St. Albert, Ab. CaN.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Dawe" <davedawe@3web.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Rotax 532 Starter
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "David Dawe" <davedawe@3web.net>
> >
> > Anyone have experience working on the starter in a Rotax 532?
> >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | M4-912 Carb issues |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Magdic" <steve.magdic@1psg.com>
I have had the same problem with my 912 Model 3. After a lot of head scratching,
I found one carb socket had a
large crack in it which was not easy to see until I disassembled it. At lower throttle
settings the engine ran
fine. When the throttle was set for take off rpm's, the gap would open creating
a lean condition in one bank of
carbs. I didn't see the problem on the instruments because the EGT probe is on
the opposite side. Might be worth
checking. Good luck.
Steve Magdic
912 Model3/4 Wing
Sussex Wisconsin
-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck & Deanna Schieffer [mailto:cdschieffer@starnetdial.net]
Subject: Kitfox-List: M4-912 Carb issues
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Chuck & Deanna Schieffer" <cdschieffer@starnetdial.net>
Hi group,
I am a fairly new Kitfox M4-912 owner that purchased it from the original builder
with about 600 hours on the a/c. An A & P and I just finished some maintenance
work suggested by Lockwood, (stator replacement, carb cleaning/rebuilding
and gearbox reshimming) for a 600 hr engine.
Starting to fly the aircraft again after the maintenance work has the RPM dropping
after takeoff while still over the runway from about 5400 to about 4000 resulting
in aborted takeoffs.
Additional info
1. Carbs were mechanically and vacuum syncronized at about 2000 and 3500 rpm after
rebuilding.
2. Ground full power runup to 5000 rpm max does not recreate the rpm drop within
about the 45 seconds until temps get to hot to continue full ground power.
3. I installed a fuel filter, (Lockwood supplied), between the engine driven fuel
pump and carbs, (but have since removed it and put it back to original unfiltered
condition), which hasn't seemed to help the rpm drop.
4. Applying the choke when the rpm drops usually results in a slight rpm increase.
5. I increased the length of the carb overflow hoses from about 4 inches to 18
inches during the maintenance to get any dumped fuel away from the exhaust, but
have since replaced the 18 inch tubes back to 4 inch with no help for the rpm
drop.
Does anyone have any ideas/experience with these issues.
Also, do people use fuel filters with no problems??
With a fuel filter in place will there still be enough gravity fuel flow to the
carbs to keep the engine running if the fuel pump fails??
Although I'm having a lot of fun taking off and landing at the same time on the
runway, I would like to fly more than 500 feet at a time.
Thanks,
Chuck
Message 10
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| Subject: | L/D of Kitfox Model 4 1050 |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud" <shoeless@barefootpilot.com>
Kurt wrote
> I also would like to know the real thrust available
> before takeoff, rather than the difficulty of
> calculating estimated hp, to figure takeoff
> performance at various altitudes on short fields.
> The, "Will I make it?" question can become important,
> but time consuming and error ridden to answer.
>
Kurt just get out there and fly the darn thing ;-)
All the graphs and charts in the world won't help you one bit on short
fields. Lets be real, there's not a paved runway on the planet that would be
considered a short field for a Kitfox. In fact there aren't many unpaved
runways that would be considered short for a kitfox. So when you say short
field this has to means "the bush" or other off airport operations. Of
course Idaho and Alaska have some "airstrips" that would be considered
short. But I suspect that even there, those would be rare (I'm talking about
charted airports/airstrips)
When doing these kinds of ops, the charts all go out the window because they
can't factor in all of the varied conditions that you will see. For example;
slope, surface type, surface condition, subtle air movements/currents, air
in the tires, moose rack on the struts, yada yada yada. And probably the
most important factor of all... your mental sharpness at the moment.
Now don't get me wrong, having a general performance chart is a good thing,
but nothing can replace seat of the pants testing in real conditions. Find
some ratty dirt field with really poor conditions, hot and humid, at sea
level and test for that. Do the same at 3000', 5000', even 7000'. Then try
it on sandy beaches, rocky river banks etc. See where this is going? The
results can vary greatly between a dirt strip and a river bank. The chart is
useless for these conditions, and you just won't need it for a paved runway.
I have a favorite little off airport landing spot nearby that I visit
frequently. It's just over 500' long and at 5400' elevation. The surface is
decent so I don't normally need much more room to depart than I do at an
airport. But a few weeks ago, several days after getting 6" of snow, I
decided to go land there. I've done this many times in the snow, but I knew
it would be different this time because all the snow in the area had gotten
crusty. Sure enough, the landing roll was very short, but the takeoff roll
was noticeably longer than it would have been in fresh snow. It grabbed so
hard at the wheels that when the plane finally broke loose it felt being in
a sling shot. Fun stuff!
Anyway, I think you get the point. We don't need no stinkin charts. :-0
Cliff
do not archive
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: What is that black powder and what do I do about it??` |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
Michel and All,
Some plug wires are carbon based and not copper. The
carbon will break down easier and can powder, but it
puts out less radio static and is thus used. I would
hope that Rotax uses better wires than this though.
Kurt S.
Just a note on Rotax plug wires (582). Rotax uses "copper" not carbon. I
had to replace mine due to relocating the modules to the firewall. I ordered
Rotax replacement wire from Spruce. What I received was a very thin copper that
did not even closely resemble the Rotax type. I reordered from CPS and
received the same wire that was on the engine from Rotax.
Don Smythe
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Hi - Brand New series 5 owner - looking for a little |
advice :
Seal-Send-Time: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 06:49:16 -0800
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Roger Standley" <taildragon@msn.com>
Thank you for the recommendations David and Lowell. Yes, we are still here and doing our best to develop tail dragger pilots. I would be happy to work with you Phil. Check us out at the Amelia Reid Aviation web site: http://www.AmeliaReid.com. You can e-mail me directly at taildragon@msn.com or call at home 408-259-4409.
Roger Standley
----- Original Message -----
From: davestapa@juno.com
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 8:47 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Hi - Brand New series 5 owner - looking for a little
advice :
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: davestapa@juno.com
Phil,
Last October I spent a long weekend with Roger and put 15 hours on
tailwheel airplanes. About 11 hours in a Citabria and 4 in Roger's
Model IV with a 912.(Sure beats driving a 172 around the sky) Had a blast
and would recommend Roger as a CFI. He should be on the list (you out
there Roger?) He teaches at Amelia Reid Aviation at Reid-Hillview, San
Jose.
David Estapa
Woodstock, GA
S5 final assembly
On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 08:09:18 -0800 "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
writes:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt"
> <lcfitt@inreach.com>
>
> Phil,
>
> For the Tail Wheel training, try Roger Standley. His airplane is
> based at
> Frazer Lake, I don't remember where he teaches out of. Or Robin
> Reid,
> Hillview airport in San Jose.
>
> For the Engine, I would strongly consider the Rotax 912S.
>
> Lowell
Message 13
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| Subject: | L/D of Kitfox Model 4 1050 |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "JMCBEAN" <JDMCBEAN@cableone.net>
Cliff,
Charts is what we do when the weather is too stinko to go flying........
They are also a good base line for reference reasons... If you have to ask
"Will I make it".. one shouldn't have been there to begin with and if you
are going to try to make it better wait for the best conditions.
Blue Skies!!
John & Debra McBean
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Clifford Begnaud
Subject: Performance charts, was-Kitfox-List: L/D of Kitfox Model 4 1050
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud"
<shoeless@barefootpilot.com>
Kurt wrote
> I also would like to know the real thrust available
> before takeoff, rather than the difficulty of
> calculating estimated hp, to figure takeoff
> performance at various altitudes on short fields.
> The, "Will I make it?" question can become important,
> but time consuming and error ridden to answer.
>
Kurt just get out there and fly the darn thing ;-)
All the graphs and charts in the world won't help you one bit on short
fields. Lets be real, there's not a paved runway on the planet that would be
considered a short field for a Kitfox. In fact there aren't many unpaved
runways that would be considered short for a kitfox. So when you say short
field this has to means "the bush" or other off airport operations. Of
course Idaho and Alaska have some "airstrips" that would be considered
short. But I suspect that even there, those would be rare (I'm talking about
charted airports/airstrips)
When doing these kinds of ops, the charts all go out the window because they
can't factor in all of the varied conditions that you will see. For example;
slope, surface type, surface condition, subtle air movements/currents, air
in the tires, moose rack on the struts, yada yada yada. And probably the
most important factor of all... your mental sharpness at the moment.
Now don't get me wrong, having a general performance chart is a good thing,
but nothing can replace seat of the pants testing in real conditions. Find
some ratty dirt field with really poor conditions, hot and humid, at sea
level and test for that. Do the same at 3000', 5000', even 7000'. Then try
it on sandy beaches, rocky river banks etc. See where this is going? The
results can vary greatly between a dirt strip and a river bank. The chart is
useless for these conditions, and you just won't need it for a paved runway.
I have a favorite little off airport landing spot nearby that I visit
frequently. It's just over 500' long and at 5400' elevation. The surface is
decent so I don't normally need much more room to depart than I do at an
airport. But a few weeks ago, several days after getting 6" of snow, I
decided to go land there. I've done this many times in the snow, but I knew
it would be different this time because all the snow in the area had gotten
crusty. Sure enough, the landing roll was very short, but the takeoff roll
was noticeably longer than it would have been in fresh snow. It grabbed so
hard at the wheels that when the plane finally broke loose it felt being in
a sling shot. Fun stuff!
Anyway, I think you get the point. We don't need no stinkin charts. :-0
Cliff
do not archive
Message 14
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| Subject: | Coolant temperature sensor and EIS |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Thanks William! I will see if I can do something similar.
Randy
Do not archive
.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Wwillyard@aol.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Coolant temperature sensor and EIS
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Wwillyard@aol.com
In a message dated 2/20/2004 11:28:47 AM Eastern Standard Time,
rjdaugh@rapidnet.com writes:
> I am hooking up my 912S to a Grand Rapids EIS.
Randy, on my Classic IV, I machined a piece from hex aluminum stock to fit
the out side of the aluminum coolant line from the spider tank to the
radiator.
I drilled and taped the adapter for the 10 mm thread. I also drilled and
taped a 6-32 hole on the exterior of the hex adapter so that I could attach
the
ground wire (don't drill through to the 10 mm hole). I had the adapter tig
welded to the aluminum coolant line. This location will gives approximately
the
same temp readings as the EIS thermocouples on the heads.
William Willyard
Classic IV
Grandville, MI
Message 15
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| Subject: | CONDUCTIVE GREASE |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
I suspect that I am worrying too much about this. But in my experience
"dielectric" means insulator - not "conductive" as specified by Skystar.
The sites that Rex sent say they are for maintaining good contact, but seem
to suggest that the mechanism is through corrosion prevention - not enhanced
conduction.
Maybe Skystar didn't mean electrical conductive, but heat conductive??
I may go with Robert's suggestion.
Thanks to all.
Randy
.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Beck
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: CONDUCTIVE GREASE
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Robert Beck" <trevor@inter.net>
Randy:
The grease you want is called 'Silicon Dielectric Grease', and should be
available at any Radio Shack or electronic parts store, or some auto parts
stores. Works well to keep the juice flowing through electrical connections.
A 6 or 8oz tube lasts a long time.
Robert Beck
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh"
<rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
>
>
> IN the instructions for the electrical hook up, it says you should cover
the
> electrical connections with "conductive grease" to prevent corrosion.
>
> I have always used Vaseline on battery terminals, but I can't believe that
> Vaseline would fit the description "conductive". Do they mean plain old
> bearing grease - lithium (or other) soaps - or is there some other product
> for this purpose?
>
> Randy
Message 16
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| Subject: | L/D of Kitfox Model 4 1050 |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
<smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
"But total drag? You need to have a thrust meter in
the cockpit or do a good bit of calculating to get
that graph. :-( "
If you glide down, you know what the force is on the plane - equals the
weight of the plane.
If you set up to be stable at different speeds, you can back out (calculate)
the drag of your plane at that speed! This will generate the data for
Brian's curve. It will also tell you what thrust your engine is producing
at a given speed in level flight.
Interesting discussion!
Randy
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: : L/D and props |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: RiteAngle3@aol.com
Be careful out there folks, remember a forced landing you cause is not a
thing insurance companies like!
Example of Kurt's comments
One of the largest contributors to the drag is condition of the engine all
other things being equal. Back before starters on all training aircraft ~~40 or
so years ago ~~ I used to shut off the ignition on a Champ to give a student
forced landings. As soon as he indicated a good decision would turn the
ignition back on and away we went. He taxied up to the office, I jumped in and
did
my normal thing after we were up a while and shut off the ignition while at a
cruise speed ~~Surprise the engine turned over 3 or 4 revolutions and stopped,
We dove to over redline trying to get it to start seems like it was 129 mph
or so. It had always started turning over about 80 mph, and we had to do a
full stall to get the prop to stop! We landed in an open pasture, he said he had
installed an overhauled engine a few days before ~~~ Lesson Compression does
make a huge difference. A geared engine can also make a huge difference on
how it windmills.
Also as Kurt said prop pitch will make a big difference. When training in
multiengine aircraft there is a manifold pressure that will equal the drag of a
feathered prop without shutting down the engine. Ask any multi engine
instructor if it makes a difference ~~ some aircraft the difference is several
hundred feet per minute!
Elbie
Old CFI, over 10,000 hours training, still love it!
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: CONDUCTIVE GREASE |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: <rex@awarenest.com>
I need to learn more, but as I understand it there is
carbon or silver electrically conductive grease. There is
also Thermally conductive and corrosive protection only
grease which has dielectric properties. Vaseline can serve
as a corrosion protectant, but I think silicone (or even
axle grease) is better for it's better water resistance,
heat resistance and heavier composition. Axle grease cons
are it will stain things with the lubricating additives
not needed for corrosion protection. Thermal grease will
stain too, but it's usually white. Don't know if it has
much use in our application for conduction/corrosion
protection. Probably not.
I have heard of a fluid that is supposed to improve
conductivity, but I think it is primarily used on
connectors in electronics.
Rex
On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 08:20:11 -0700
"Randy Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com> wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh"
><rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
>
>I suspect that I am worrying too much about this. But in
>my experience
>"dielectric" means insulator - not "conductive" as
>specified by Skystar.
>
>The sites that Rex sent say they are for maintaining good
>contact, but seem
>to suggest that the mechanism is through corrosion
>prevention - not enhanced
>conduction.
>
>Maybe Skystar didn't mean electrical conductive, but heat
>conductive??
>
>I may go with Robert's suggestion.
>
>Thanks to all.
>
>Randy
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | L/D of Kitfox Model 4 1050 |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clint Bazzill" <clint_bazzill@hotmail.com>
About a stopped or windmilling prop. I read an article a while back about this.
It seems that a 182 driver had an emergency and had a forced landing. When he
got very slow his prop stopped windmilling and his glide increased and he overshot
his landing. I thought about this and tried this with my Model IV Kitfox.
I was over the Half Moon Bay airport at 3000 ft and pulled the power off and
checked glide. I then cut the ignitions off and glided with stopped prop. Sure
got quiet, I could see no changes. Clint
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: CONDUCTIVE GREASE |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Dcecil3@aol.com
Conductive Grease commonly known in the electrical industry as Pinitrox or
(Goose #%*#) whichever you prefer is a Conductive / Corrosion inhibitor. It uses
the grease to Keep out moisture and has filings in it to conduct, it can be
found at any electrical supply house. Dielectric refers to the insulating value
of a material at a rated voltage.Dieletcric Grease is use to fill voids and
has a small insulating value, silicone does not conduct. In High Voltage
applications we use Dielectric Grease to fill small voids in the insulation so
static will not build up and cause the cable to fail from the inside out. Now a
Little lesson about connections>BUY A TORCH solder connections are the best you
can get. I mean it's so simple. Skin the wire, slide a heat shrink over it,
dip it in paste to clean it, a little heat, solder your done( IT took me longer
to type it than it takes to do it) Solderless connections are for Tractors,
you know motor quits, you get off, knock the dirt off of you, Bless the
tractor(Yes that's one" Divine" Tractor) find the loose wire and your back in
business. If your in a plane and that happens? Solder.I've been in the electrical
industry for 25 Yrs. I'm a Master Electrician, I'm also certifide by American
Electric Power to work voltage's from 120V to 138KV in addition to being a Ham
Operator.I have rarely seen a Solder Connection fail.Solder
Best
David Cecil
KF3#950
Message 21
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|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 532 cy. sound |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Harrington" <aerowood@mcsi.net>
Hi Dave,
When my old 582 did this, the stator was coming apart!
This is rare, but 2 of the coils were broken.
I suspect a much earlier "vibration" started the damage.
(Loss of one blade and other 2 dug a hole in the ground!)
Pieces of the magnet (rubberized) were sticking between the coils and the
magnet.
bh
> Good Morning Bob
>
> Another question.
> Plugs out, rotate prop slowly, each cy. ,sound of click, each time they
> change direction.Is this normal rings sound.
> appreciate your help.
>
> regards
> Dave
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | Re: What is that black powder and what do I do about it??` |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Harrington" <aerowood@mcsi.net>
Hi Dave,
I've had a lot of this problem. The black powder comes from sparking between
the cap and the plug top. There is a clip in the cap which is supposed to keep
the cap tight against the plug top. The clip erodes over time, and the cap
becomes loose. Once you notice the cap getting loose, just replace the cap.
Tap the black powder out when you replace plugs. Interestingly, only the #3
plug (from the front) ever did this.
Bob Robertson has the Bosch metal plug caps.
bh
ex-N194KF, 582ed IV-1200, 800+ hrs
> I just finished an annual inspection on my Kitfox II. It has a 532 with
single ignition. 195 total hours.
>
> Black powder came out of the rear spark plug wire connector when I removed it.
> It is the type with the metal cover that comes down over the whole spark plug.
> I can't see much inside because of the rubber donut about half way up. Both
spark plugs looked just the right color. It runs perfectly with the new plugs,
just like it did before I changed them.
>
> I hate to force the metal jacket off for fear of damaging it.
>
> Any Ideas???
Message 23
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| Subject: | CONDUCTIVE GREASE |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
David,
Thanks! This help a lot!
Do you have a brand name or more info? I can't find Pinitrox.
I guess I haven't tried Goose #%*# though. 8-)
Randy
.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dcecil3@aol.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: CONDUCTIVE GREASE
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Dcecil3@aol.com
Conductive Grease commonly known in the electrical industry as Pinitrox or
(Goose #%*#) whichever you prefer is a Conductive / Corrosion inhibitor. It
uses
the grease to Keep out moisture and has filings in it to conduct, it can be
found at any electrical supply house. Dielectric refers to the insulating
value
of a material at a rated voltage.Dieletcric Grease is use to fill voids and
has a small insulating value, silicone does not conduct. In High Voltage
applications we use Dielectric Grease to fill small voids in the insulation
so
static will not build up and cause the cable to fail from the inside out.
Now a
Little lesson about connections>BUY A TORCH solder connections are the best
you
can get. I mean it's so simple. Skin the wire, slide a heat shrink over it,
dip it in paste to clean it, a little heat, solder your done( IT took me
longer
to type it than it takes to do it) Solderless connections are for Tractors,
you know motor quits, you get off, knock the dirt off of you, Bless the
tractor(Yes that's one" Divine" Tractor) find the loose wire and your back
in
business. If your in a plane and that happens? Solder.I've been in the
electrical
industry for 25 Yrs. I'm a Master Electrician, I'm also certifide by
American
Electric Power to work voltage's from 120V to 138KV in addition to being a
Ham
Operator.I have rarely seen a Solder Connection fail.Solder
Best
David Cecil
KF3#950
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: What is that black powder and what do I do about it??` |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Bruce Harrington wrote:
> Once you notice the cap getting loose, just replace the cap.
> Tap the black powder out when you replace plugs. Interestingly, only the #3
> plug (from the front) ever did this.
I believe this is exactly what happened to me, Bruce. only that it was plug #4.
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 25
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|
| Subject: | 2-blade vs. 3-blade |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: dwight purdy <dpurdy@comteck.com>
I am flying 2 blade IVO on a Model II 503. It is only a 61 in. Due to the
reduced hp.caused by the shortened exhaust I had to crank pitch out when
used as a three blade. Very slow but smooth. As a two blade I have the
pitch cranked up to almost max. Not as smooth but much better cruise.
Has anyone ever come up with a good way to get the exhaust back up to
Rotax specs. for the model 1thru 3?
Dwight
At 03:25 PM 2/20/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Gary Algate" <algate@attglobal.net>
>
>John
>
>The noise drop inside my plane was so apparent that everybody that flew in
>it before has commented. I went from a 3 blade Ultralight IVOprop to a 2
>blade Medium Ivoprop which is considerably wider in chord and much more
>robust.
>
>Maybe that is the reason for the noise reduction - I'm not sure but even my
>radio works better now with the quieter cabin.
>
>regards
>
>Gary Algate
>Lite2/582
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "JMCBEAN" <JDMCBEAN@cableone.net>
>
>As a general rule... a 3 blade prop will be quieter and will climb better.
>A two blade will cruise better and be more efficient. This is providing
>one is comparing similar props.
>
>Blue Skies!!
>John & Debra McBean
>"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
>
Message 26
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|
| Subject: | Wondering........ |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "hausding, sid" <sidh@charter.net>
Its so much easier to ask than to look up.........
What is the Michigan made after market Rotary valve kit for the rotax 582's.
........?
Do Not Archive
Sid
Message 27
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| Subject: | L/D of Kitfox Model 4 1050 |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Clint,
Sounds like you found the speed where your engine/prop
has the same drag at idle or off. Results will vary
with speed. If you slowed down, the engine might have
still produced a little idle thrust and if you sped
up, idle would be draggy and off better. Every plane
has such a speed and it just happens that you found
yours.
If the speed for no difference idle or off happens
around the L/D max speed, you have the ability to
practice engine out accurately without shutting the
engine down. :-)
I do not advocate shutting the engine down unless you
are " way up there" and have a place to land, engine
out, first. Even then it is risky. I don't plan to
shut the engine off in flight except only if necessary
during Phase I testing. Even then, if I go below
1,500', I am landing whether it starts or not. Too
many people pass up their landing spot with an engine
that only runs for seconds, and then they have no
place to land.
Some people like gliding though, and if you are good
at it, fine. I agree that glider training is a plus
too.
Kurt S.
--- Clint Bazzill <clint_bazzill@hotmail.com> wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clint Bazzill"
> <clint_bazzill@hotmail.com>
>
>
> About a stopped or windmilling prop. I read an
> article a while back about this. It seems that a 182
> driver had an emergency and had a forced landing.
> When he got very slow his prop stopped windmilling
> and his glide increased and he overshot his landing.
> I thought about this and tried this with my Model IV
> Kitfox. I was over the Half Moon Bay airport at 3000
> ft and pulled the power off and checked glide. I
> then cut the ignitions off and glided with stopped
> prop. Sure got quiet, I could see no changes. Clint
__________________________________
http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools
Message 28
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|
| Subject: | Re: : L/D and props |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
I agree Elbie,
Don't practice things dangerously. Shutting down the
engine in flight was quite normal in the old days.
But I know of people who messed it up with bad
consequences.
One instructor shut off the fuel at the valve. The
student went thru the drill turning the valve on in
the process, but was not able to get the lines and
carb primed in time, so the instructor closed the
valve again for the emergency landing. They had a
field made, but the engine finally caught and as they
climbed away, it shut off again due to the reclosed
valve. Now they had no place to go.
Two problems here: Don't shut off the engine in
flight by fuel starvation, and only one pilot flys the
plane! This time the student did right and the
instructor got it wrong twice.
Kurt S.
--- RiteAngle3@aol.com wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by:
> RiteAngle3@aol.com
>
> Be careful out there folks, remember a forced
> landing you cause is not a
> thing insurance companies like!
> Example of Kurt's comments
> One of the largest contributors to the drag is
> condition of the engine all
> other things being equal. Back before starters on
> all training aircraft ~~40 or
> so years ago ~~ I used to shut off the ignition on a
> Champ to give a student
> forced landings. As soon as he indicated a good
> decision would turn the
> ignition back on and away we went. He taxied up to
> the office, I jumped in and did
> my normal thing after we were up a while and shut
> off the ignition while at a
> cruise speed ~~Surprise the engine turned over 3 or
> 4 revolutions and stopped,
> We dove to over redline trying to get it to start
> seems like it was 129 mph
> or so. It had always started turning over about 80
> mph, and we had to do a
> full stall to get the prop to stop! We landed in an
> open pasture, he said he had
> installed an overhauled engine a few days before ~~~
> Lesson Compression does
> make a huge difference. A geared engine can also
> make a huge difference on
> how it windmills.
> Also as Kurt said prop pitch will make a big
> difference. When training in
> multiengine aircraft there is a manifold pressure
> that will equal the drag of a
> feathered prop without shutting down the engine.
> Ask any multi engine
> instructor if it makes a difference ~~ some aircraft
> the difference is several
> hundred feet per minute!
>
> Elbie
> Old CFI, over 10,000 hours training, still love it!
__________________________________
http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: CONDUCTIVE GREASE |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Dcecil3@aol.com
Randy you can find it at Lowe's or Home Depot in the Electrical section.I
Apologize I didn't get the 1st post so I don't know what your useing it for but
be careful!!!!!!! ,if you get it between 2 wires it could cause a fire.As I
said before take the time to solder the connections , if your attaching it to
a
device run a bolt through it and nut the back side even if it's like a
switch that has threads in the blade then solder the head.If it can't turn it can't
come loose , plus you'll have the added advantage of another soldered
connection and you won't need the Goose.You demanded aircraft quality materials
in
your kit ,so don't skimp on how you terminate your wires Solder.
Best
David Cecil
KF#950
Message 30
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|
| Subject: | L/D of Kitfox Model 4 1050 |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Sorry,
I have been out of general aviation for decades.
Charts are a habit. "Every" flight I do at UPS we
always ask, "Will we make it?" and go into the charts:
snow, ice, rain, wind, altimeter setting, etc all
considered. Sometimes it comes pretty close. Six
inches of snow is pretty close to "No go" even for
these Boeings.
The ATIS, clearance, approved flight plan changes, and
t/o data are copied on our flight plans and kept for
later FAA review for every flight. W&B must also be
done for every flight. Sometimes we feel like our
licenses are made out in pencil prepared for quick
errassure.
My first flight in a 767 was also the captain's first
flight in one. The passengers had to show us where to
hang out hats! We took off within 0.005% of the max
allowable weight for the runway, and landed at Oakland
with a 30 not crosswind and low ceilings. Our first
flight.... :-0 We used the charts and I am still here
with my rear and license in tact.
In my KF usage, I do plan to go off airport and into
high bush country. It is to be my mountain/bush
plane, so I do want to prepare, "Will we make it?"
data to be used later.
That is just me...
Kurt S.
--- JMCBEAN <JDMCBEAN@cableone.net> wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "JMCBEAN"
> <JDMCBEAN@cableone.net>
>
> Cliff,
> Charts is what we do when the weather is too
> stinko to go flying........
> They are also a good base line for reference
> reasons... If you have to ask
> "Will I make it".. one shouldn't have been there to
> begin with and if you
> are going to try to make it better wait for the best
> conditions.
>
> Blue Skies!!
> John & Debra McBean
>
.............
> Kurt wrote
> > I also would like to know the real thrust
> available
> > before takeoff, rather than the difficulty of
> > calculating estimated hp, to figure takeoff
> > performance at various altitudes on short fields.
> > The, "Will I make it?" question can become
> important,
> > but time consuming and error ridden to answer.
............
> posted by: "Clifford Begnaud"
> Kurt just get out there and fly the darn thing ;-)
> All the graphs and charts in the world won't help
............
> We don't need no stinkin charts. :-0
>
> Cliff
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| Subject: | Re: L/D of Kitfox Model 4 1050 |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Hi Dave and Wendy,
Your testing sounds excellent. I would have thought
the KF glide ratio was a bit worse than that. Over
10:1 is good! A minimum sink of 500'/min is great
too. I think that works out at just 5.7 mph verticle
descent rate - a slow jog.
Of course the IV is a bit cleaner than the S-5 and on,
due to the narrower fuselage. Your Bushbaby/IV will
be faster on the same hp I am sure. I'll be happy if
I get 10:1 on my fat S-5.
56 indicated? That seems a respectable and fun speed
to gently fly about at, disturbing the air and people
the least. That leaves you with a lot of excess power
avilable.
Kurt S.
--- Dave & Wendy Grosvenor <dwg@iafrica.com> wrote:
>
> I have just done this test on my Bushbaby, which is
> essentailly a Kitfox 4
> 1050. I did glide tests at 5mph increments from
> 50mph to 80mph, each time
> gliding down for 1 minute from 4500ft. After 1
> minute, I'd note the height
> lost. All done in early morning calm air. I
> plotted the results on a graph
> and found my best L/D to be 10.5:1 at 56 mph IAS (61
> mph TAS). Minimum sink was 500 fpm
> at 55 mph IAS, pretty close to the best L/D speed.
> When I feel enthusiastic,
> I will do the test again to try verify the figures.
>
> The graph looks about right with a very sharp peak.
> That's why the min sink
> and best L/D speeds are close together. This is
> typical of high drag
> aircraft. If you look at the L/D curve for a high
> performance sailplane, you will see a much flatter
> graph.
>
> Cheers
> Dave
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| Subject: | Re: L/D and Zero thrust |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Doug,
I think you covered it all. :-)
The article I read about setting zero thrust "with
help" was based on the idea of putting a contact on
the back of the engine to firewall, and hooking it up
to a light - I think. At any thrust at all, the light
went out because the contact was broke by the engine's
pull and the engine mounts flexing forward away from
the firewall. You backed off on the power until just
reaching the point where the light comes on = zero
thrust. Adjust for any speed you are doing.
It is a pretty simple indicator. A bolt and a nut for
one contact that you can adjust and lock down. Some
wire, LED and a fuse. Another fixed contact. Make
mounts to hold the contacts, and you are done.
But if you were unstable at all, especially in speed,
the data would come out wrong with this method just
like any other. Then what happens if the engine heat
expands the contact mounts? You would have to build
the mounts to adjust for this, ie, vertically mounted
behind the engine so they expand down and not towards
each other when hot. It should be pretty accurate
then.
It can be done, if anyone wants to try.
Kurt S.
--- DPREMGOOD@aol.com wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: DPREMGOOD@aol.com
>
> Right on, Kurt,
>
> Probably the simplest (and most effective) way to
> test for L/D max. is
> exactly the way you mentioned.
>
> Ideally, one remove the prop, get a tow to altitude
> and commence testing at
> the different speeds. This would provide a more
> accurate drag polar of the
> airframe.
> .................
> Regards,
>
> Doug Remoundos
> Classic IV
> Montreal, Canada
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