---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 03/11/04: 35 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:26 AM - Re: Ethanol Autogas in Tanks (Mike Chaney) 2. 05:01 AM - Re: Sport Pilot rating (Dee Young) 3. 06:02 AM - Re: I have the Cowling bluess!! (Dave Wahlquist) 4. 07:13 AM - Re: Ethanol Autogas in Tanks (Lowell Fitt) 5. 07:45 AM - Re: Ethanol Autogas in Tanks (Vic Jacko) 6. 07:48 AM - Re: M4 bungee (Tom Jones) 7. 09:00 AM - 100 LL AV..Engine perfomrance???Re: Ethanol (Harris, Robert) 8. 09:30 AM - Re: 100 LL AV..Engine perfomrance???Re: (Harris, Robert) 9. 09:48 AM - Re: Ethanol Autogas in Tanks (Steve M) 10. 10:16 AM - Re: Ethanol Autogas in Tanks (Wwillyard@aol.com) 11. 10:30 AM - Re: plastic radiator elbows (Wwillyard@aol.com) 12. 10:46 AM - Re: Sport Pilot rating (kurt schrader) 13. 11:10 AM - Re: plastic radiator elbows (kurt schrader) 14. 11:10 AM - Re: Ethanol Autogas in Tanks (Scott McClintock) 15. 11:28 AM - 100LL engine performance (Scott McClintock) 16. 11:29 AM - Re: Ethanol Autogas in Tanks (Fox5flyer) 17. 12:15 PM - Ethanol in Aviation (jeff.hays@aselia.com) 18. 12:17 PM - Re: Sport Pilot rating (Dee Young) 19. 12:24 PM - Re: 100LL engine performance (Harris, Robert) 20. 01:06 PM - Ethanol in Aviation (Scott McClintock) 21. 02:04 PM - Re: Ethanol in Aviation (jeff.hays@aselia.com) 22. 02:17 PM - Re: Ethanol in Aviation (jeff.hays@aselia.com) 23. 02:30 PM - Ethanol fuel (Scott McClintock) 24. 03:10 PM - Re: Ethanol in Aviation (Jim Burke) 25. 03:13 PM - Re: USA Registered aircraft (Jeff Thomas) 26. 03:29 PM - Dan Johnson Columbus Ohio (Jeffrey Puls) 27. 03:45 PM - Re: Re: USA Registered aircraft (Torgeir Mortensen) 28. 03:49 PM - Re: Re: USA Registered aircraft (Scott McClintock) 29. 05:02 PM - USA Registered aircraft (hausding, sid) 30. 05:29 PM - Re: Ethanol in Aviation (Randy Daughenbaugh) 31. 05:29 PM - Re: Ethanol in Aviation (Randy Daughenbaugh) 32. 08:45 PM - Re: LED Nav. Lights (Steve Gandy) 33. 08:56 PM - Re: M4 bungee (Dave & Wendy Grosvenor) 34. 09:02 PM - Re: I have the Cowling bluess!! (Dale Kister) 35. 09:04 PM - Metric aircraft bolts (Dave & Wendy Grosvenor) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:26:35 AM PST US From: Mike Chaney Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol Autogas in Tanks --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Mike Chaney I live in Southwestern Ohio and I only use gas from Shell (BP). I test each batch I put in my tank and have never found any ethanol. Mike Chaney ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:01:26 AM PST US From: "Dee Young" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Sport Pilot rating --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dee Young" I have never gotten over reading what I am thinking and not what I wrote. That's bad ain't it Dee Do not archive >From: Michael Gibbs >Reply-To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Sport Pilot rating >Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 23:16:00 -0700 > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michael Gibbs > >Dee Young sez: > > >Thanks Steve for the update, that is good news for everyone. I will > >let aviation grow again. > >I didn't realize you were the one holding things up, Dee. :-) > >Mike G. > > Get business advice and resources to improve your work life, from bCentral. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:02:13 AM PST US From: Dave Wahlquist Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: I have the Cowling bluess!! --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Dave Wahlquist Dave, Yes cutting and welding the extensions on was one plan or making up something new is a possibility also.Maybe a call to Skystar can shed some light on the different mounts styles. Looking at other peoples engine installation pictures has not given me any clue about the logic behind the different styles. Anyone else on the list have any thoughts or opinions on this one? do not archive At 07:33 PM 3/10/2004 -0600, you wrote: >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave Savener" > >Dave, > >If you have to "add the up front parts", how would you do that. Would you >cut the extensions(the rod and tabs) from the old mounts then weld them to >the new ones? If one can get them aligned correctly, at least the tabs >would already be spaced to fit the old cowl!! > >do not archive >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Dave Wahlquist" >To: >Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: I have the Cowling bluess!! > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Dave Wahlquist > > > > Dave, > > > > Interesting question. > > > > To add to this I removed a damaged motor mount from a Model III 582 that > > was the new style and had the rod and tabs up front and have a replacement > > that doesn't have that extension up front. Otherwise the mounts are > > identical. My plan was to add the up front parts if I need them but I have > > not found out the reason for the two styles yet. My thought is that it > > wasn't really a good idea to have that attach point up front because of >the > > vibration and twist in relation to the rest of the cowl.??? > > > > Dave > > Mod III rebuilding > > > > At 06:27 PM 3/9/2004 -0600, you wrote: > > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave Savener" > > > > > > >I have a 532(just about worn out) in a model II with the old style motor > > >mount. The front cowling is attached to a rod that extends forward from > > >the motor mount. > > > > > >I have a blue head 582 to replace it. I have obtained the newer style > > >motor mount that attaches to the side of the motor. It doesn't have the > > >cowling attach rod out in front. The front cowlings attach to the rear > > >cowlings on the newer versions of the Model II with the new mount. > > > > > >Has anyone had experience making the old cowls fit with the new motor > > >mount? Or do I have to find/buy new cowlings. > > > > > >If the past is any indication, with my fiberglass skills, making new ones > > >is out of the question. It would take me years and they would be so >heavy > > >I'd have to add a nose wheel!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:13:59 AM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol Autogas in Tanks --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" This sounds great. My understand is that the Ethanol thing has largely to do with the Farm Lobby and markets for corn. Maybe they exempted the corn producing states :-). Or maybe being so close to the commodity, they opted for something in the gas that satisfies EPA without the corrosive effects of Ethanol. We have it here in Calif at about 5%. I tested for it and plan on using it until I see the problem developing. I check the tank sealer at each fill up. Two fills since January the sealer is every bit as firm as five years ago - so far. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Chaney" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol Autogas in Tanks > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Mike Chaney > > I live in Southwestern Ohio and I only use gas from Shell (BP). I test each > batch I put in my tank and have never found any ethanol. > Mike Chaney > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:25 AM PST US From: "Vic Jacko" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol Autogas in Tanks --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Vic Jacko" The local Shell provider has told me they do not use alcohol in the local area but they are required to use it in fuel sold in Albuquerque and El Paso for pollution control. I have tested the fuel many times and never found alcohol in Shell. Shell also has a charge card that provides 5% discount right at the pump! FWIW Vic Roswell, NM ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Chaney" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol Autogas in Tanks > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Mike Chaney > > I live in Southwestern Ohio and I only use gas from Shell (BP). I test each > batch I put in my tank and have never found any ethanol. > Mike Chaney > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:48:00 AM PST US From: Tom Jones Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: M4 bungee --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Tom Jones Dave, some cord is 3/8" X 66": use six wraps. Some is 5/16" X 90": use thirteen wraps. Tom Jones, La Pine, OR > Does anybody know off hand what the length of the Model 4 bungee is and how > many wraps do you use? > > Dave ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:00:30 AM PST US From: "Harris, Robert" Autogas in Tanks Subject: 100 LL AV..Engine perfomrance???RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol Autogas in Tanks --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert" Will my engine performance run okay with 100LL in my Rotax 582? Robert -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol Autogas in Tanks --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" This sounds great. My understand is that the Ethanol thing has largely to do with the Farm Lobby and markets for corn. Maybe they exempted the corn producing states :-). Or maybe being so close to the commodity, they opted for something in the gas that satisfies EPA without the corrosive effects of Ethanol. We have it here in Calif at about 5%. I tested for it and plan on using it until I see the problem developing. I check the tank sealer at each fill up. Two fills since January the sealer is every bit as firm as five years ago - so far. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Chaney" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol Autogas in Tanks > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Mike Chaney > > I live in Southwestern Ohio and I only use gas from Shell (BP). I test each > batch I put in my tank and have never found any ethanol. > Mike Chaney > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:30:32 AM PST US From: "Harris, Robert" EthanolAutog as in Tanks Subject: RE: 100 LL AV..Engine perfomrance???RE: Kitfox-List: EthanolAutog as in Tanks --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert" What type of engine performance can I expect using 100LL AV gas in my Rotax 582? Will the stock carburetor jets be okay with the 100LL AV gas? -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Harris, Robert in@cleopatra.intuit.com; Tanks@cleopatra.intuit.com Subject: 100 LL AV..Engine perfomrance???RE: Kitfox-List: EthanolAutogas in Tanks --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert" Will my engine performance run okay with 100LL in my Rotax 582? Robert -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol Autogas in Tanks --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" This sounds great. My understand is that the Ethanol thing has largely to do with the Farm Lobby and markets for corn. Maybe they exempted the corn producing states :-). Or maybe being so close to the commodity, they opted for something in the gas that satisfies EPA without the corrosive effects of Ethanol. We have it here in Calif at about 5%. I tested for it and plan on using it until I see the problem developing. I check the tank sealer at each fill up. Two fills since January the sealer is every bit as firm as five years ago - so far. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Chaney" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol Autogas in Tanks > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Mike Chaney > > I live in Southwestern Ohio and I only use gas from Shell (BP). I test each > batch I put in my tank and have never found any ethanol. > Mike Chaney > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:48:46 AM PST US From: "Steve M" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol Autogas in Tanks --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve M" Actually they moved from MTBE to ethanol last year, didn't they? I've been flying my Geo-engined Kitfox with Shell and Arco premium-unleaded autogas, and both stations tell me they have ethanol in their gas. Haven't seen any sludge, leaks, or any other problems so far. Steve Maher Kitfox Model 2, Geo Metro engine San Diego, CA >From: "Chuck & Deanna Schieffer" >Reply-To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >To: "Kitfox list" >Subject: Kitfox-List: Ethanol Autogas in Tanks >Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 17:33:41 -0800 > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Chuck & Deanna Schieffer" > > >Hi group, >Southern CA is moving from MTBE in autogas to ethanol. I am the second >owner of a Kitfox model 4-1200 with a 912 and understand there can be some >issues with the gas mixture softening/dissolving some of the fiberglas >joints in the 13 gal Kitfox tanks. Skystar says if the sloshed coating in >the tank is intact there should be no problems. I haven't checked the >tanks yet. Anyone on the list have any information/issues/experience with >gasahol use in the tanks? >Thanks, >Chuck > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:16:05 AM PST US From: Wwillyard@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol Autogas in Tanks --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Wwillyard@aol.com Leading Edge Air Foils sells a fuel sample cup that can be used to test for ethanol. It has all the necessary graduations along with a scale to indicate the percentage of ethanol. I test every purchase I make and buy from the locations that test negative for ethanol. So far here in West Michigan I have only found ethanol in fuel from Speedway. William Willyard Classic IV Grandville, MI ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:30:08 AM PST US From: Wwillyard@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: plastic radiator elbows --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Wwillyard@aol.com In a message dated 3/11/2004 12:35:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net writes: > William > > Thanks for the info. The rumor I heard was from a Jaguar driver. He was > talking about how great and reliable the Jag was. Unless of course you > happened to buy one during a certain year when they mixed copper with the > aluminum radiators. I did not believe him about the Jag being reliable but > I guess I did believe him about the copper aluminum thing. > > Jim Shumaker > > > Copper in direct contact with aluminum in an electrolyte solution may be a different story. Piping systems for plumbing and heating applications frequently use what is called a dielectric union or coupling that provides a discontinuation for the electrical circuit or battery that is formed when dissimilar metals are joined. In the case of our cooling systems the rubber hoses used to joint the components become the insulators that break the electrical path and provide the necessary protection. There are charts available that show the relative degree of potential between different combinations of metals when it is necessary to physically joint different types of metals together. William Willyard Classic IV Grandville, MI ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:46:56 AM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Sport Pilot rating --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader For just one fleeting moment I thought this List had some power. :-) Kurt S. --- Dee Young wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dee Young" > > > I have never gotten over reading what I am thinking > and not what I wrote. > That's bad ain't it > > Dee > > Do not archive __________________________________ http://search.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:10:31 AM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: plastic radiator elbows --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader William W, A most excellent and knowledgeable answer! You should not put a copper fitting on a aluminum radiator, or an aluminum engine block, etc. But I should also point out that in homes the 2 dissimilar metals are not usually connected by a metal frame. Note: A battery consists of 2 dissimilar metals seperated by the electrolite. As long as the metals are not joined by a conductor (your circuit) the metals last a long time. Likewise, two dissimilar metals in a fluid joined by the aircraft or auto frame can make a circuit and then corrode. Your coolant will always be a little acidic or basic with some impurities. The amounts are usually small and get used up/nuteralized quickly making just a little corrosion. Thus many mechanics caution not changing these fluids too often, or you renew these impurities and increase corrosion. Kind of opposite of oil that needs changing often because it gains impurities. I suppose the bottom line is to make sure that no dissimilar metal fitting touches another metal, including the frame. Kurt S. --- Wwillyard@aol.com wrote: > Copper in direct contact with aluminum in an > electrolyte solution may be a > different story. Piping systems for plumbing and > heating applications > frequently use what is called a dielectric union or > coupling that provides a > discontinuation for the electrical circuit or > battery that is formed when dissimilar > metals are joined. In the case of our cooling > systems the rubber hoses used to > joint the components become the insulators that > break the electrical path and > provide the necessary protection. There are charts > available that show the > relative degree of potential between different > combinations of metals when it is > necessary to physically joint different types of > metals together. > > William Willyard > Classic IV > Grandville, MI __________________________________ http://search.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:10:31 AM PST US From: Scott McClintock Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol Autogas in Tanks --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Scott McClintock Lowell, I recommend that you refrain from using oxygenated fuel (ethanol) in two cycle engines. I have raced high performance two cycle engines since I was a teen-ager (now 49). I have had catastrophic engine failures ranging from upper ring land problems, spalling, seizures and crank seal failures directly caused by using these fuels. This fuel is hard on reed valves, o-rings, gaskets ect. This fuel was introduced as an alternative fuel during the Arab Oil Embargoes and now continues as a "winter fuel" supposedly to reduce emissions/pollution. I think that's a farce myself. Anyway, you are much better off NOT using this fuel, I certainly don't. Scott in Nome Lowell Fitt wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" > > This sounds great. My understand is that the Ethanol thing has largely to > do with the Farm Lobby and markets for corn. Maybe they exempted the corn > producing states :-). Or maybe being so close to the commodity, they opted > for something in the gas that satisfies EPA without the corrosive effects of > Ethanol. > > We have it here in Calif at about 5%. I tested for it and plan on using it > until I see the problem developing. I check the tank sealer at each fill > up. Two fills since January the sealer is every bit as firm as five years > ago - so far. > > Lowell > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Chaney" > To: > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol Autogas in Tanks > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Mike Chaney > > > > I live in Southwestern Ohio and I only use gas from Shell (BP). I test > each > > batch I put in my tank and have never found any ethanol. > > Mike Chaney > > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:28:22 AM PST US From: Scott McClintock Subject: Kitfox-List: 100LL engine performance --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Scott McClintock --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert" What type of engine performance can I expect using 100LL AV gas in my Rotax 582? Will the stock carburetor jets be okay with the 100LL AV gas? Bob, You will actually see a slight increase in performance switching to 100LL. As I just posted to Lowell, I have raced two-cycle, high performance engines for a long time. During this time, if I could not acquire racing fuel (I.e. Trick, Dago, ect.) I used 100LL, no exceptions. I completely "scattered" a CR500 engine once in Baja when I was forced to use some "Ethyl Pemex" during one year's Baja 500. This fuel was/is heavily laden with ethanol. I find the 100LL reduces engine heat a few degrees too. The nice thing about 100LL is that it is consistent, you will always get the same thing versus "pump gas" (who knows) Scott in Nome ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:29:10 AM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol Autogas in Tanks --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" Good info! Darrel NE Michigan > Leading Edge Air Foils sells a fuel sample cup that can be used to test for > ethanol. It has all the necessary graduations along with a scale to indicate > the percentage of ethanol. I test every purchase I make and buy from the > locations that test negative for ethanol. So far here in West Michigan I have only > found ethanol in fuel from Speedway. > > William Willyard ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:15:32 PM PST US From: "jeff.hays@aselia.com" Subject: Kitfox-List: Ethanol in Aviation --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff.hays@aselia.com" Ethanol's here to stay, and isn't gonna go away. 100LL will go away, and more than likely the stuff we pump into cars/planes is gonna all be mixed as well, so I think education is the best thing we can do. http://www.baylor.edu/bias/index.php?id=4556 I think there's a reason it's accepted by all the Auto, Motorcycle, RV, Snowmobile, etc. manufacturer's as being acceptable fuel. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:17:43 PM PST US From: "Dee Young" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Sport Pilot rating --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dee Young" Not I said the Magpie:>) Do not archive >From: kurt schrader >Reply-To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Sport Pilot rating >Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 10:46:24 -0800 (PST) > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader > > >For just one fleeting moment I thought this List had >some power. :-) > >Kurt S. > >--- Dee Young wrote: > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dee Young" > > > > > > I have never gotten over reading what I am thinking > > and not what I wrote. > > That's bad ain't it > > > > Dee > > > > Do not archive > >__________________________________ >http://search.yahoo.com > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:24:14 PM PST US From: "Harris, Robert" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 100LL engine performance --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert" Thanks Scott -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott McClintock Subject: Kitfox-List: 100LL engine performance --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Scott McClintock --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert" What type of engine performance can I expect using 100LL AV gas in my Rotax 582? Will the stock carburetor jets be okay with the 100LL AV gas? Bob, You will actually see a slight increase in performance switching to 100LL. As I just posted to Lowell, I have raced two-cycle, high performance engines for a long time. During this time, if I could not acquire racing fuel (I.e. Trick, Dago, ect.) I used 100LL, no exceptions. I completely "scattered" a CR500 engine once in Baja when I was forced to use some "Ethyl Pemex" during one year's Baja 500. This fuel was/is heavily laden with ethanol. I find the 100LL reduces engine heat a few degrees too. The nice thing about 100LL is that it is consistent, you will always get the same thing versus "pump gas" (who knows) Scott in Nome ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:06:37 PM PST US From: Scott McClintock Subject: Kitfox-List: Ethanol in Aviation --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Scott McClintock --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff.hays@aselia.com" Ethanol's here to stay, and isn't gonna go away. 100LL will go away, and more than likely the stuff we pump into cars/planes is gonna all be mixed as well, so I think education is the best thing we can do. Jeff, are you employed by the government?? I went to the Baylor Link you provided and read the entire article. It reads like a government publication. The article does not address or glazes over important issues such as ethanol's ability to absorb water or the need to modify engines to operate on this fuel. While it is true that ethanol will increase horsepower what is not mentioned is that these engines will only last if certain modifications are made and strict maintenance routines are adhered to. I've put a lot of four stroke racing engines together, designed to run on ethanol. Modifications such as increases to compression ratios, combustion chamber modifications, valve train mods, exhaust modification are but a few if you want these engines to work and last. "Alcohol" engines require frequent oil changes and are subject to atmospheric changes more that a "gasser". No mention of the extreme loss of mileage (endurance) is made in the article. "Alcoholics" virtually DRINK fuel. Have you ever seen the size of the main jet required in a "Alcohol burner". I think that hydrogen/ fuel cells are a better choice, especially for aviation and once perfected, will be a cleaner, cheaper alternative to fossil or "farm" fuels. My opinion........., but I'm ready for the flak. Have at it! Scott in Nome DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:04:50 PM PST US From: "jeff.hays@aselia.com" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol in Aviation --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff.hays@aselia.com" Hi Scott - Regardless, it's here and it's not going away. Just to bad mouth it, is sort of doing the Ostrich thing. I can honestly say, that I am no longer employed by the Govt. My service to Uncle Sam ended honorably 22 years ago. :) Jeff Original Message: ----------------- From: Scott McClintock scott_mcclintock@dot.state.ak.us Subject: Kitfox-List: Ethanol in Aviation --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Scott McClintock --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff.hays@aselia.com" Ethanol's here to stay, and isn't gonna go away. 100LL will go away, and more than likely the stuff we pump into cars/planes is gonna all be mixed as well, so I think education is the best thing we can do. Jeff, are you employed by the government?? I went to the Baylor Link you provided and read the entire article. It reads like a government publication. The article does not address or glazes over important issues such as ethanol's ability to absorb water or the need to modify engines to operate on this fuel. While it is true that ethanol will increase horsepower what is not mentioned is that these engines will only last if certain modifications are made and strict maintenance routines are adhered to. I've put a lot of four stroke racing engines together, designed to run on ethanol. Modifications such as increases to compression ratios, combustion chamber modifications, valve train mods, exhaust modification are but a few if you want these engines to work and last. "Alcohol" engines require frequent oil changes and are subject to atmospheric changes more that a "gasser". No mention of the extreme loss of mileage (endurance) is made in the article. "Alcoholics" virtually DRINK fuel. Have you ever seen the size of the main jet required in a "Alcohol burner". I think that hydrogen/ fuel cells are a better choice, especially for aviation and once perfected, will be a cleaner, cheaper alternative to fossil or "farm" fuels. My opinion........., but I'm ready for the flak. Have at it! Scott in Nome DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 02:17:00 PM PST US From: "jeff.hays@aselia.com" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol in Aviation --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff.hays@aselia.com" Not true, re-read section 4 - "Technical Characteristics" >No mention of the extreme loss of mileage (endurance) is made in the >article. "Alcoholics" virtually DRINK fuel. Have you ever seen the size >of the main jet required in a "Alcohol burner". Here's a bunch of paper's: http://www.baylor.edu/bias/index.php?id=5302 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 02:30:30 PM PST US From: Scott McClintock Subject: Kitfox-List: Ethanol fuel --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Scott McClintock List Members, Jeff & I got off the subject a little. Sorry about that :-) Back to the subject of oxygenated fuel in two-strokes: Bottom line is that it is not the best fuel to use in our applications. As always, it's up to the individual whatever the choice. I'll stick to what I know works with lesser risk. Scott in Nome DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 03:10:49 PM PST US From: Jim Burke Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol in Aviation --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jim Burke I don't understand a lot about the technical stuff about alcohol in fuel, but I do understand it will mix with water. What would happen if I was to add a few onces of water to a 6 gal. can of gas, shack it up and poor it thru a water separator funnel? Would it remove the alcohol with the water? Don't yell to load! James E. Burke (N94JE) -------Original Message------- From: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol in Aviation --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff.hays@aselia.com" Not true, re-read section 4 - "Technical Characteristics" >No mention of the extreme loss of mileage (endurance) is made in the >article. "Alcoholics" virtually DRINK fuel. Have you ever seen the size >of the main jet required in a "Alcohol burner". Here's a bunch of paper's: http://www.baylor.edu/bias/index.php?id=5302 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 03:13:21 PM PST US From: "Jeff Thomas" Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: USA Registered aircraft --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jeff Thomas" In England there is a CAA web site generally known as "G-INFO" where you can view the details of UK registered aircraft. For example if you put in an aircraft registration the search will come up with the owners name and address and full aircraft details. Alternatively you could enter a persons name and it would search and come up with the details of any aircraft registered to that person. Is there anything similar in the USA that the general public have access to? Regards Jeff Do not archive ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 03:29:41 PM PST US From: "Jeffrey Puls" Subject: Kitfox-List: Dan Johnson Columbus Ohio --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Puls" Dan, Where do you keep your Kitfox? I fly my Classic IV out of Bolton. Jeff Puls Jeffrey Puls pulsair@mindspring.com Why Wait? Move to EarthLink. ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 03:45:36 PM PST US From: Torgeir Mortensen Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: USA Registered aircraft --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen Hi Jeff, Here it is: http://162.58.35.241/acdatabase/acmain.htm Cheers Torgeir. Jeff Thomas wrote: > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jeff Thomas" > > In England there is a CAA web site generally known as "G-INFO" where you can > view the details of UK registered aircraft. For example if you put in an > aircraft registration the search will come up with the owners name and > address and full aircraft details. Alternatively you could enter a persons > name and it would search and come up with the details of any aircraft > registered to that person. > > Is there anything similar in the USA that the general public have access to? > > Regards > > Jeff > > Do not archive > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 03:49:06 PM PST US From: Scott McClintock Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: USA Registered aircraft --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Scott McClintock Jeff, Try this link http://registry.faa.gov/aircraft.asp Scott in Nome Jeff Thomas wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jeff Thomas" > > In England there is a CAA web site generally known as "G-INFO" where you can > view the details of UK registered aircraft. For example if you put in an > aircraft registration the search will come up with the owners name and > address and full aircraft details. Alternatively you could enter a persons > name and it would search and come up with the details of any aircraft > registered to that person. > > Is there anything similar in the USA that the general public have access to? > > Regards > > Jeff > > Do not archive > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 05:02:11 PM PST US From: "hausding, sid" Subject: Kitfox-List: USA Registered aircraft --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "hausding, sid" Jeff, go to www.landings.com and scroll down to the bottom of the home page. Under 'search/ref' you will find a "databases" link, then click on it. Excellent page with all the info you will ever need for general aviation will open up.............EAA and AOPA websites have links to the FAA also Sid ---------------------------- In England there is a CAA web site generally known as "G-INFO" where you can view the details of UK registered aircraft. For example if you put in an aircraft registration the search will come up with the owners name and address and full aircraft details. Alternatively you could enter a persons name and it would search and come up with the details of any aircraft registered to that person. Is there anything similar in the USA that the general public have access to? Regards Jeff ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 05:29:46 PM PST US From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol in Aviation --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Yes, but it may take more than a few ounces of water. Randy . -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Burke Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol in Aviation --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jim Burke I don't understand a lot about the technical stuff about alcohol in fuel, but I do understand it will mix with water. What would happen if I was to add a few onces of water to a 6 gal. can of gas, shack it up and poor it thru a water separator funnel? Would it remove the alcohol with the water? Don't yell to load! James E. Burke (N94JE) -------Original Message------- From: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol in Aviation --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff.hays@aselia.com" Not true, re-read section 4 - "Technical Characteristics" >No mention of the extreme loss of mileage (endurance) is made in the >article. "Alcoholics" virtually DRINK fuel. Have you ever seen the size >of the main jet required in a "Alcohol burner". Here's a bunch of paper's: http://www.baylor.edu/bias/index.php?id=5302 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 05:29:46 PM PST US From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol in Aviation --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Scott, I think the reason it glazes over the separation issue is that there isn't any separation issue with 95% ethanol that they are talking about. They are not talking about gasohol. - or gasoline containing ethanol. The Reid vapor pressure of E-95 is lower than gas, but if I remember correctly it is lower for gasohol and thus you do have more vapor lock problems with gasohol than with gasoline. But gasoline is blended differently for summer and for winter operation so it will vaporize OK in the winter, but will not vapor lock so bad in the summer. I question their economics. Right now it takes a lot of energy (read coal, or fuel oil or natural gas) to make ethanol. The technology is changing though. At any rate this website sheds no light on the issue of ethanol gasoline blends. Randy . -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott McClintock Subject: Kitfox-List: Ethanol in Aviation --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Scott McClintock --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff.hays@aselia.com" Ethanol's here to stay, and isn't gonna go away. 100LL will go away, and more than likely the stuff we pump into cars/planes is gonna all be mixed as well, so I think education is the best thing we can do. Jeff, are you employed by the government?? I went to the Baylor Link you provided and read the entire article. It reads like a government publication. The article does not address or glazes over important issues such as ethanol's ability to absorb water or the need to modify engines to operate on this fuel. While it is true that ethanol will increase horsepower what is not mentioned is that these engines will only last if certain modifications are made and strict maintenance routines are adhered to. I've put a lot of four stroke racing engines together, designed to run on ethanol. Modifications such as increases to compression ratios, combustion chamber modifications, valve train mods, exhaust modification are but a few if you want these engines to work and last. "Alcohol" engines require frequent oil changes and are subject to atmospheric changes more that a "gasser". No mention of the extreme loss of mileage (endurance) is made in the article. "Alcoholics" virtually DRINK fuel. Have you ever seen the size of the main jet required in a "Alcohol burner". I think that hydrogen/ fuel cells are a better choice, especially for aviation and once perfected, will be a cleaner, cheaper alternative to fossil or "farm" fuels. My opinion........., but I'm ready for the flak. Have at it! Scott in Nome DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 08:45:01 PM PST US From: "Steve Gandy" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: LED Nav. Lights --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Gandy" Thanks for the information Torgeir. Do you know where to get the clear lens for the Kitfox wing tips. I found some for RV's, but not for the Kitfox. Do not archive Steve Gandy s.gandy@comcast.net Aeronca L-3C N48540 Kitfox 6 N540KF (Building) -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Torgeir Mortensen Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: LED Nav. Lights --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen Hi Steve, Here is a little to read about LED in different use. Please check the requirement for aircrafts position light's. Read this first: http://sss.sd54.bc.ca/cars/t62503e.htm http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part27-1387-FAR.shtml http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part27-1391-FAR.shtml Lots of traditional light's for aircraft: (this one take some time to load- pdf file) http://www.grimesaero.com/info/literature/ga_catalog.pdf LED replacement for old types of bulb: http://www.ledtronics.com/ http://www.led.net/datasheets/intermedbase_index/intermed_index.htm http://www.superbrightleds.com/led_prods.htm http://www.dialight.com/ LED clusters: http://www.tcmlink.com/EngSpecSheetDocs/IO240B.pdf Dome (?) LED assy: http://www.theledlight.com/ceilingfixtures.html LED "mini spot" light: http://www.theledlight.com/led-fixtures.html Regards Torgeir. Steve Gandy wrote: > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Gandy" > > Hi List > > Myself and a friend are each building a Kitfox S-6 and S-7 and are > looking for low amp LED Nav Lights and clear lens for the wing tip. Any > help would be appreciated. > == == == == ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:17 PM PST US From: "Dave & Wendy Grosvenor" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: M4 bungee --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave & Wendy Grosvenor" Thanks Tom. Dave do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Jones" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: M4 bungee --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Tom Jones Dave, some cord is 3/8" X 66": use six wraps. Some is 5/16" X 90": use thirteen wraps. Tom Jones, La Pine, OR > Does anybody know off hand what the length of the Model 4 bungee is and how > many wraps do you use? > > Dave ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 09:02:32 PM PST US From: "Dale Kister" <2@dalekister.com> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: I have the Cowling bluess!! --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dale Kister" <2@dalekister.com> The extensions on the 582 motor mounts were used because it allowed SS to use up the inventory of old style cowlings after they changed to the currently used side motor mount system. Later cowlings did not require extensions because the front (bump) pieces attached directly to the rear pieces. I was told this by SS at least when I was building my model III 5 years ago. Dale Kister KF model 3/582 -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave Wahlquist Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: I have the Cowling bluess!! --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Dave Wahlquist Dave, Yes cutting and welding the extensions on was one plan or making up something new is a possibility also.Maybe a call to Skystar can shed some light on the different mounts styles. Looking at other peoples engine installation pictures has not given me any clue about the logic behind the different styles. > > > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 09:04:02 PM PST US From: "Dave & Wendy Grosvenor" Subject: Kitfox-List: Metric aircraft bolts --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave & Wendy Grosvenor" This is for the European guys. Do you know of a source of metric aircraft bolts? I assume you do get such a thing. Cheers Dave