Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:39 AM - Re: Air Speed (Paul Seehafer)
2. 05:29 AM - Re: GPS & Autopilot (Clifford Begnaud)
3. 05:49 AM - Re: Getting the "Alaska" CD's........ (hausding, sid)
4. 07:11 AM - Leo Rice (Lowell Fitt)
5. 08:30 AM - Re: Used Kitfox and the DAR (Vic Jacko)
6. 09:05 AM - Re: Leo Rice (Bruce Harrington)
7. 09:35 AM - Re: Air Speed (Michel Verheughe)
8. 09:37 AM - Re: Question Foxers (Michel Verheughe)
9. 10:21 AM - Re: Leo Rice (Michel Verheughe)
10. 10:53 AM - Re: Leo Rice (Fox5flyer)
11. 10:53 AM - Re: Question Foxers (Steve Cooper)
12. 11:48 AM - Re: Leo Rice (Marc Arseneault)
13. 12:10 PM - Re: Question Foxers (Vic Jacko)
14. 12:11 PM - Re: Question Foxers (Michel Verheughe)
15. 12:17 PM - Re: Leo Rice (Fred Shiple)
16. 12:24 PM - Fw: Question Foxers (Vic Jacko)
17. 12:36 PM - Re: Question Foxers (kerrjohna@comcast.net)
18. 01:03 PM - Re: Question Foxers (Harris, Robert)
19. 01:12 PM - Re: Question Foxers - AOA system (jeff.hays@aselia.com)
20. 01:14 PM - 582 Coolant circuit (Gary Algate)
21. 02:00 PM - Re: Question Foxers (Vic Jacko)
22. 03:25 PM - Re: Question Foxers (Steve Cooper)
23. 03:33 PM - Re: Question Foxers (Steve Cooper)
24. 03:39 PM - Re: Question Foxers - AOA system (Steve Cooper)
25. 05:01 PM - Re: 582 Coolant circuit (Glenn Horne)
26. 05:41 PM - Re: 582 Coolant circuit (Steve Cooper)
27. 06:29 PM - Re: GPS & Autopilot (jimshumaker)
28. 06:46 PM - Re: GPS & Autopilot (Steve Cooper)
29. 07:45 PM - Re: Question Foxers (kurt schrader)
30. 07:48 PM - Re: Question Foxers (kerrjohna@comcast.net)
31. 08:43 PM - Re: Question Foxers (kurt schrader)
32. 08:58 PM - Re: Question Foxers (jimshumaker)
33. 08:59 PM - Re: Leo Rice (jimshumaker)
34. 09:35 PM - Re: Leo Rice (kurt schrader)
35. 10:00 PM - Re: Question Foxers (Steve Cooper)
36. 10:12 PM - Re: Question Foxers (kurt schrader)
37. 10:25 PM - Re: To drag or not to drag.......Radiator Scoops (kurt schrader)
38. 11:20 PM - Re: Question Foxers (Bruce Harrington)
Message 1
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul Seehafer" <av8rps@tznet.com>
I also would suggest we all keep it to miles per hour (verses knots).
Otherwise we are always having to convert. A general rule for aviation
should be "we don't talk about knots unless the thing flys at least 200
mph". Keeps life simple. (plus, its more fun to talk about higher numbers
when our airplanes are so slow to start with...)
Just a suggestion
Paul Seehafer
Wisconsin
----- Original Message -----
From: "kurt schrader" <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Air Speed
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
<smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
>
> Good point Jim,
>
> We should all be talking about TAS most of the time,
> when speaking of performance comparisons. Some ASI's
> may be way off, or altitudes flown be so different
> they give poor comparisons. I used IAS for my last
> answer. It was under conditions that made TAS only 3
> knots faster in this case, but I should have reported
> an 83 knots TAS cruise instead.
>
> We should all state what we use just like saying feet
> or meters, quarts or liters, mph or kts, IAS or TAS,
> or GS. Otherwise it is just guesswork of apples and
> oranges.
>
> Kurt S.
>
> --- Jim Burke <jeburke94je@direcway.com> wrote:
> >
> > I have been reading a lot of e-mail about airspeed
> > and I was curious, Are
> > you talking about indicated airspeed,true airspeed
> > or actual ground speed
> > from your GPS? My KF IV-1200 cruises at 80 mph
> > indicated @ 5400 rpm with a
> > 582. 90mph indicated @ 5800rpm.
> >
> > James E. Burke
> > (N94JE)
>
> __________________________________
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: GPS & Autopilot |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud" <shoeless@barefootpilot.com>
Thanks to all that have provided input on this subject. I must admit it's
very tempting. The feature set of the anywheremap is truly impressive but
this last comment by Jim may be the clincher.
Anyone care to comment on autopilots?
Cliff
do not archive
> Cliff
>
> I have flown with the Anywhere map for a couple of years now. I am
> continually amazed at the info, upgrades (including daily TFR's) and
> features, including glideslope, and holding patterns. However, because it
> is a computer it can crash. For that reason I would never consider
> connecting it to an autopilot.
>
> Jim Shumaker
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Getting the "Alaska" CD's........ |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "hausding, sid" <sidh@charter.net>
Grant,
I'm a glutton for over indulgence..........yes, if you can please send the
other, or picture, CD as well. I had planned on being with that group for
the flight of a lifetime........and as luck would have it the gubmint had me
up in Kodiak on a boat while these guys were flying past at the same time!
I made the trip vicariously and want to see what all the excitement was.
:-)
Sid
---------------------------
Hi Sid,
Glad you received the DVD's in good condition. I
forget to mention in my original email to the list
that there is also a picture CD. If you are interested
in that, let me know and I'll put one in a CD mailer
to you. The postage wasn't as much as I thought for
the DVD's so I'll mail the CD for free.
Grant
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 4
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
I am forwarding a portion of an e-mail I received from Leo's address this morning,
April, 12th.
Dear Mr. Fitt,
I am Leo Rice's daughter and I'm going through my dad's email messages
for my mom. I am very sorry to let you know that my dad passed away in his
sleep early Thursday morning. We will all miss him very much, but his pain
and confusion were growing worse and we are glad he is not suffering through
it any longer.
We have lost members of the Kitfox list from time to time and as with the others,
this one hurts a lot. Leo was a kind and generous man who was able to fly
his Series 5 for two and a half years. This after being diagnosed with colon
cancer during the building process and fighting to regain his medical.
I have visited him, the last time about three weeks ago and thought I sensed a
little downslide. He still greeted me with that big smile though, and I had
no idea he was suffering pain while we spoke.
Will miss you Leo,
Lowell
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Used Kitfox and the DAR |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Vic Jacko" <vicwj@earthlink.net>
David, it appears that you should be able to treat this airplane as a
repairable airplane and restore it to the status of an experimental
aircraft. This be the case you can do all the maintenance, sign off on the
same in the log book just as though you built it but you must have an A&P
sign off on the conditional inspection.
However it is possible that as a result of the NTSB declaration of this
being a total lose they may have somehow withdrawn the A/W certificate.
Please keep us advised as you make your way thru this mess.
Vic
----- Original Message -----
From: <Dcecil3@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Used Kitfox and the DAR
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Dcecil3@aol.com
>
> Had My first Meeting with the DAR for Virginia Yesterday. I also got an
> education about buying a kit that had been damaged and built by another
person.NTSB
> wrote the aircraft off as a loss but the airframe was repairable. If
> Richmond, VA, FISDO doesn't agree with the fact that this aircraft has to
be totally
> rebuilt, I will only be able to get an Exhibition Category cirtificate.At
> present the right wing has to be rebuilt, all controls have to be
installed,
> everything including the one good wing has to be covered and painted,
Instruments,
> and the complete engine installation.
>
> I did get lucky there are only two DAR's in VA and this guy lives 2Mi.
away.
> He did take Pictures to submit to FISDO to try to get them to agree that
the
> aircraft will need 51% of the Manufacturing work done to get it flying
(Got my
> fingers Crossed) Hope someone out there reads this and learns. Buy it
flying
> or a NEW kit, I think the guy that said "I'm from the FAA and I'm here to
help
> you " got fired. Wish me luck. I either have a Kitfox "KIT" or a hellva a
lot
> of Kitfox parts for sale!
> Best
> David Cecil
> KF3#950
>
>
Message 6
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Harrington" <aerowood@mcsi.net>
Thanks Lowell for the post.
Leo and I had a number of interesting conversations on my trips
back from Reno. I'll miss him.
Bruce H.
Message 7
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Paul Seehafer wrote:
> I also would suggest we all keep it to miles per hour (verses knots).
> Otherwise we are always having to convert. A general rule for aviation
> should be "we don't talk about knots unless the thing flys at least 200
> mph". Keeps life simple. (plus, its more fun to talk about higher numbers
> when our airplanes are so slow to start with...)
If you like high numbers, how about km/h, Paul? :-)
I believe the US has gone metric, isn't it? Time Magazine, at least, is only
writing metric. So, let's call it km/h, m/s (VVI) and hectoPascal for pressure.
The knot is interesting, but only when one talks about nautical miles. Which is
interesting if one does navigation with a chart that has the latitude scale on
a side. In the days of GPS, it has lost a bit of its charm.
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Question Foxers |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
jimshumaker wrote:
> My Kitfox III liked to hobby horse on the three point landings before I
> sealed the gap on the elevator. The elevator did not have enough power to
> pull the wing into a stall attitude that would let the tail wheel touch at
> or before the mains. By landing on the mains first, the nose pitched up and
> the tail touched and popped the nose back down and touched the mains. While
> shooting touch and goes the tower would clear me for bounce and goes.
Interesting reading, Jim. First I was thinking of sealing my elevator's gap.
Then I thought, why should I change a good design, built by a fine airman? But
now you give me a good excuse to at least try gap sealing to see how it affects
my landings.
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 9
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Lowell Fitt wrote:
> We have lost members of the Kitfox list
I am sorry to hear that, Lowell. Thank you for forwarding the message. To have
friends is to face that one day we may loose them. Grief is the price we pay
for love.
Michel
do not archive.
Message 10
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
Lowell, my condolences to you and all other's who knew him personally.
Unfortunately he's gone now, but fortunately his pain is ended. He was a
great list member and we'll all miss him.
Darrel
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
>
> I am forwarding a portion of an e-mail I received from Leo's address this
morning, April, 12th.
>
> Dear Mr. Fitt,
> I am Leo Rice's daughter and I'm going through my dad's email messages
> for my mom. I am very sorry to let you know that my dad passed away in
his
> sleep early Thursday morning. We will all miss him very much, but his
pain
> and confusion were growing worse and we are glad he is not suffering
through
> it any longer.
>
> We have lost members of the Kitfox list from time to time and as with the
others, this one hurts a lot. Leo was a kind and generous man who was able
to fly his Series 5 for two and a half years. This after being diagnosed
with colon cancer during the building process and fighting to regain his
medical.
>
> I have visited him, the last time about three weeks ago and thought I
sensed a little downslide. He still greeted me with that big smile though,
and I had no idea he was suffering pain while we spoke.
>
> Will miss you Leo,
>
> Lowell
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Question Foxers |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper" <spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
I'd like to thank everyone who jumped in on this with your terrific ideas
regarding my landing challenge. The bird is an Avid Mark IV Heavy
Hauler/STOL so it has the long wing...but I don't see much stol in it!!! In
fact, it pretty much flys like a 172 (in terms of responsivness), but with a
lot better climb. That surprised the heck out of me because the bird came in
so light when the building was completed last March. I did add a little more
weight when I swapped out my Rotax 670 RAVE and installed my Jabiru 2200.
The Jab weighed a little over 2 lbs heavier and I did install an Odyssey 625
battery which is a pound heavier than the Yeaseu(sp) I had before. So, I'm
at 915 lbs at takeoff and CG is well withen range, but more forward than I'd
like it to be. Not bad, but I thought I'd see a lot more "low and slow" out
of this bird. Typically, I climb to 400ft. agl by the time I hit the end of
our 3000' runway. Not sure how that compares to you Foxers. Anyway, I'm
going to gap seal my elevator and see if that helps. I cross the numbers at
65, I'm going to try to maintain a little faster speed through the flair. I
have plenty of elevator authority so I'm not "running out". It's just so
weird what this plane does you know...Everything is set up on final, all the
numbers are right. No crosswind, no bumping. Straight down the centerline.
Now, start to ease back on the stick. Watch airspeed. Easy. Now begin to
hold it off, hold it off, easy, easy...ease back, ease back...NOW! it drops
out. I clench my teeth waiting for the impact of the mains on hard runway.
Not too bad this time, but I feel the bungees working as the gear legs snap
back into position. Keeping the bird straight by dancing on the peddles,
next the tail wheel springs and a moment later the mains touch again, and
then the tailwheel, now the mains again...a couple more times for good
measure...and all the while I'm fighting to keep her straight as my speed
bleeds off from 50 or so...keep her straight. Catch that drift to the
right...that's it...nice and straight. Now my speed is down to twenty or
so...breath...that's it...OK-got it! Well guys, that's sort of what it's
like in mine. If I could figure out a way to even make them 10% better I'd
be happy. Thanks for all the great advice on this one guys. Take care.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michel Verheughe" <michel@online.no>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Question Foxers
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
>
> jimshumaker wrote:
> > My Kitfox III liked to hobby horse on the three point landings before I
> > sealed the gap on the elevator. The elevator did not have enough power
to
> > pull the wing into a stall attitude that would let the tail wheel touch
at
> > or before the mains. By landing on the mains first, the nose pitched up
and
> > the tail touched and popped the nose back down and touched the mains.
While
> > shooting touch and goes the tower would clear me for bounce and goes.
>
> Interesting reading, Jim. First I was thinking of sealing my elevator's
gap.
> Then I thought, why should I change a good design, built by a fine airman?
But
> now you give me a good excuse to at least try gap sealing to see how it
affects
> my landings.
>
> Cheers,
> Michel
>
> do not archive
>
>
Message 12
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Marc Arseneault" <northernultralights@hotmail.com>
To Lowell and all members of the list who knew Leo well. My sincere condolences
go out to everyone one of you. I knew Lowell from this list and it is a great
loss to us all. Lowell and his pain has left us but he will always be in our
hearts!
Best Regards,
Marc Arseneault
Ontario Canada
From: "Fox5flyer" morid@northland.lib.mi.us Reply-To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Leo Rice Date: Mon, 12
Apr 2004 13:52:52 -0400 -- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" morid@northland.lib.mi.us
Lowell, my condolences to you and all other's who knew him
personally. Unfortunately he's gone now, but fortunately his pain is ended. He
was a great list member and we'll all miss him. Darrel -- Kitfox-List message
posted by: "Lowell Fitt" lcfitt@inreach.com I am forwarding a
portion of an e-mail I received from Leo's address this morning, April, 12th.
Dear Mr. Fitt, I am Leo Rice's daughter and I'm going through my dad's email
messages for my mom. I am very sorry to let you know that my dad passed away
in his sleep early Thursday morning. We will all miss him very much, but his
pain and confusion were growing worse and we are glad he is not suffering
through it any longer. We have lost members of the Kitfox list from time to
time and as with the others, this one hurts a lot. Leo was a kind and generous
man who was able to fly his Series 5 for two and a half years. This after being
diagnosed with colon cancer during the building process and fighting to regain
his medical. I have visited him, the last time about three weeks ago and
thought I sensed a little downslide. He still greeted me with that big smile
though, and I had no idea he was suffering pain while we spoke. Will miss yo
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Question Foxers |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Vic Jacko" <vicwj@earthlink.net>
Steve, I sure sounds like you have a huge case of nose heaviness. The
speeds of your approach and touchdown is indicative of this problem.
Try this:
Fill the tanks full
Put as much baggage as you can in the cargo assuming you have one behind you
and can carry the max load of this area..
Fly solo if this will move the CG to the rear.
If you can't shift the CG as above then "bolt some ballast" as far to the
rear near the tail as you can. I would start with no more than 5 lbs at
first.
I will bet that you aircraft is "very stable in pitch" while in flight.
I hope Kurt S is reading this and adds to the comments as I learned a lot
from him in this area.
Keep us advised as to your progress..
Vic
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Cooper" <spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Question Foxers
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper" <spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
>
> I'd like to thank everyone who jumped in on this with your terrific ideas
> regarding my landing challenge. The bird is an Avid Mark IV Heavy
> Hauler/STOL so it has the long wing...but I don't see much stol in it!!!
In
> fact, it pretty much flys like a 172 (in terms of responsivness), but with
a
> lot better climb. That surprised the heck out of me because the bird came
in
> so light when the building was completed last March. I did add a little
more
> weight when I swapped out my Rotax 670 RAVE and installed my Jabiru 2200.
> The Jab weighed a little over 2 lbs heavier and I did install an Odyssey
625
> battery which is a pound heavier than the Yeaseu(sp) I had before. So, I'm
> at 915 lbs at takeoff and CG is well withen range, but more forward than
I'd
> like it to be. Not bad, but I thought I'd see a lot more "low and slow"
out
> of this bird. Typically, I climb to 400ft. agl by the time I hit the end
of
> our 3000' runway. Not sure how that compares to you Foxers. Anyway, I'm
> going to gap seal my elevator and see if that helps. I cross the numbers
at
> 65, I'm going to try to maintain a little faster speed through the flair.
I
> have plenty of elevator authority so I'm not "running out". It's just so
> weird what this plane does you know...Everything is set up on final, all
the
> numbers are right. No crosswind, no bumping. Straight down the centerline.
> Now, start to ease back on the stick. Watch airspeed. Easy. Now begin to
> hold it off, hold it off, easy, easy...ease back, ease back...NOW! it
drops
> out. I clench my teeth waiting for the impact of the mains on hard runway.
> Not too bad this time, but I feel the bungees working as the gear legs
snap
> back into position. Keeping the bird straight by dancing on the peddles,
> next the tail wheel springs and a moment later the mains touch again, and
> then the tailwheel, now the mains again...a couple more times for good
> measure...and all the while I'm fighting to keep her straight as my speed
> bleeds off from 50 or so...keep her straight. Catch that drift to the
> right...that's it...nice and straight. Now my speed is down to twenty or
> so...breath...that's it...OK-got it! Well guys, that's sort of what it's
> like in mine. If I could figure out a way to even make them 10% better I'd
> be happy. Thanks for all the great advice on this one guys. Take care.
>
> Steve
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michel Verheughe" <michel@online.no>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Question Foxers
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
> >
> > jimshumaker wrote:
> > > My Kitfox III liked to hobby horse on the three point landings before
I
> > > sealed the gap on the elevator. The elevator did not have enough
power
> to
> > > pull the wing into a stall attitude that would let the tail wheel
touch
> at
> > > or before the mains. By landing on the mains first, the nose pitched
up
> and
> > > the tail touched and popped the nose back down and touched the mains.
> While
> > > shooting touch and goes the tower would clear me for bounce and goes.
> >
> > Interesting reading, Jim. First I was thinking of sealing my elevator's
> gap.
> > Then I thought, why should I change a good design, built by a fine
airman?
> But
> > now you give me a good excuse to at least try gap sealing to see how it
> affects
> > my landings.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Michel
> >
> > do not archive
> >
> >
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Question Foxers |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Steve Cooper wrote:
> Keeping the bird straight by dancing on the peddles,
> next the tail wheel springs and a moment later the mains touch again
I can't help you, Steve, I am a novice trying to learn as much as possible. But
... have you tried a main wheels landing? It has happened that I touch ground
with too much speed and the tail up. Instead of pulling the stick and get
airborne again, I just keep it there and let the speed bleed off, as if I was
doing a high-speed taxi test. Of course it can only be done with plenty of
runway but with your 3,000 ft it shouldn't be a problem. Just an idea. Maybe a
bad one. If it is, please, can someone competent correct me.
Cheers,
Michel
Message 15
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Fred Shiple <fredshiple@sbcglobal.net>
Lowell,
Leo was a great help to me when I was looking to buy my Fox several years ago.
I'd already been heartened by his story as he got his medical back. It was a sad
moment when he signed off from the list. He'll be missed.
Fred
do not archive
Message 16
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Vic Jacko" <vicwj@earthlink.net>
Steve, A few more questions..
Is it real easy to get the tail off the ground at the start of a high speed
taxi?
Does the airplane need a lot of elevator to cause it to lift off with a tail
high taxi run?
Did you do another weight/ balance of the airplane following the engine
change?
Your engine change may have put heavy engine stuff further forward than
the old package.
thanks,
Vic
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vic Jacko" <vicwj@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Question Foxers
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Vic Jacko" <vicwj@earthlink.net>
>
> Steve, I sure sounds like you have a huge case of nose heaviness. The
> speeds of your approach and touchdown is indicative of this problem.
>
> Try this:
>
> Fill the tanks full
>
> Put as much baggage as you can in the cargo assuming you have one behind
you
> and can carry the max load of this area..
>
> Fly solo if this will move the CG to the rear.
>
> If you can't shift the CG as above then "bolt some ballast" as far to
the
> rear near the tail as you can. I would start with no more than 5 lbs at
> first.
>
> I will bet that you aircraft is "very stable in pitch" while in flight.
>
> I hope Kurt S is reading this and adds to the comments as I learned a lot
> from him in this area.
>
> Keep us advised as to your progress..
>
>
> Vic
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Cooper" <spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Question Foxers
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper"
<spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
> >
> > I'd like to thank everyone who jumped in on this with your terrific
ideas
> > regarding my landing challenge. The bird is an Avid Mark IV Heavy
> > Hauler/STOL so it has the long wing...but I don't see much stol in it!!!
> In
> > fact, it pretty much flys like a 172 (in terms of responsivness), but
with
> a
> > lot better climb. That surprised the heck out of me because the bird
came
> in
> > so light when the building was completed last March. I did add a little
> more
> > weight when I swapped out my Rotax 670 RAVE and installed my Jabiru
2200.
> > The Jab weighed a little over 2 lbs heavier and I did install an Odyssey
> 625
> > battery which is a pound heavier than the Yeaseu(sp) I had before. So,
I'm
> > at 915 lbs at takeoff and CG is well withen range, but more forward than
> I'd
> > like it to be. Not bad, but I thought I'd see a lot more "low and slow"
> out
> > of this bird. Typically, I climb to 400ft. agl by the time I hit the
end
> of
> > our 3000' runway. Not sure how that compares to you Foxers. Anyway, I'm
> > going to gap seal my elevator and see if that helps. I cross the
numbers
> at
> > 65, I'm going to try to maintain a little faster speed through the
flair.
> I
> > have plenty of elevator authority so I'm not "running out". It's just so
> > weird what this plane does you know...Everything is set up on final, all
> the
> > numbers are right. No crosswind, no bumping. Straight down the
centerline.
> > Now, start to ease back on the stick. Watch airspeed. Easy. Now begin to
> > hold it off, hold it off, easy, easy...ease back, ease back...NOW! it
> drops
> > out. I clench my teeth waiting for the impact of the mains on hard
runway.
> > Not too bad this time, but I feel the bungees working as the gear legs
> snap
> > back into position. Keeping the bird straight by dancing on the peddles,
> > next the tail wheel springs and a moment later the mains touch again,
and
> > then the tailwheel, now the mains again...a couple more times for good
> > measure...and all the while I'm fighting to keep her straight as my
speed
> > bleeds off from 50 or so...keep her straight. Catch that drift to the
> > right...that's it...nice and straight. Now my speed is down to twenty or
> > so...breath...that's it...OK-got it! Well guys, that's sort of what it's
> > like in mine. If I could figure out a way to even make them 10% better
I'd
> > be happy. Thanks for all the great advice on this one guys. Take care.
> >
> > Steve
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Michel Verheughe" <michel@online.no>
> > To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Question Foxers
> >
> >
> > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
> > >
> > > jimshumaker wrote:
> > > > My Kitfox III liked to hobby horse on the three point landings
before
> I
> > > > sealed the gap on the elevator. The elevator did not have enough
> power
> > to
> > > > pull the wing into a stall attitude that would let the tail wheel
> touch
> > at
> > > > or before the mains. By landing on the mains first, the nose
pitched
> up
> > and
> > > > the tail touched and popped the nose back down and touched the
mains.
> > While
> > > > shooting touch and goes the tower would clear me for bounce and
goes.
> > >
> > > Interesting reading, Jim. First I was thinking of sealing my
elevator's
> > gap.
> > > Then I thought, why should I change a good design, built by a fine
> airman?
> > But
> > > now you give me a good excuse to at least try gap sealing to see how
it
> > affects
> > > my landings.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Michel
> > >
> > > do not archive
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Question Foxers |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kerrjohna@comcast.net
that sounds alot like when I flare too high in my Classic IV @ 678#s. what happens
on wheel landings? when my flare is correct there is little difference between
a wheel landing and a three point. For me, my landings got better as I lowered
my approach speed.
stall speed (40+/-)x1.3= 52mph. your numbers may vary.
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper" <spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
>
> I'd like to thank everyone who jumped in on this with your terrific ideas
> regarding my landing challenge. The bird is an Avid Mark IV Heavy
> Hauler/STOL so it has the long wing...but I don't see much stol in it!!! In
> fact, it pretty much flys like a 172 (in terms of responsivness), but with a
> lot better climb. That surprised the heck out of me because the bird came in
> so light when the building was completed last March. I did add a little more
> weight when I swapped out my Rotax 670 RAVE and installed my Jabiru 2200.
> The Jab weighed a little over 2 lbs heavier and I did install an Odyssey 625
> battery which is a pound heavier than the Yeaseu(sp) I had before. So, I'm
> at 915 lbs at takeoff and CG is well withen range, but more forward than I'd
> like it to be. Not bad, but I thought I'd see a lot more "low and slow" out
> of this bird. Typically, I climb to 400ft. agl by the time I hit the end of
> our 3000' runway. Not sure how that compares to you Foxers. Anyway, I'm
> going to gap seal my elevator and see if that helps. I cross the numbers at
> 65, I'm going to try to maintain a little faster speed through the flair. I
> have plenty of elevator authority so I'm not "running out". It's just so
> weird what this plane does you know...Everything is set up on final, all the
> numbers are right. No crosswind, no bumping. Straight down the centerline.
> Now, start to ease back on the stick. Watch airspeed. Easy. Now begin to
> hold it off, hold it off, easy, easy...ease back, ease back...NOW! it drops
> out. I clench my teeth waiting for the impact of the mains on hard runway.
> Not too bad this time, but I feel the bungees working as the gear legs snap
> back into position. Keeping the bird straight by dancing on the peddles,
> next the tail wheel springs and a moment later the mains touch again, and
> then the tailwheel, now the mains again...a couple more times for good
> measure...and all the while I'm fighting to keep her straight as my speed
> bleeds off from 50 or so...keep her straight. Catch that drift to the
> right...that's it...nice and straight. Now my speed is down to twenty or
> so...breath...that's it...OK-got it! Well guys, that's sort of what it's
> like in mine. If I could figure out a way to even make them 10% better I'd
> be happy. Thanks for all the great advice on this one guys. Take care.
>
> Steve
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michel Verheughe" <michel@online.no>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Question Foxers
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
> >
> > jimshumaker wrote:
> > > My Kitfox III liked to hobby horse on the three point landings before I
> > > sealed the gap on the elevator. The elevator did not have enough power
> to
> > > pull the wing into a stall attitude that would let the tail wheel touch
> at
> > > or before the mains. By landing on the mains first, the nose pitched up
> and
> > > the tail touched and popped the nose back down and touched the mains.
> While
> > > shooting touch and goes the tower would clear me for bounce and goes.
> >
> > Interesting reading, Jim. First I was thinking of sealing my elevator's
> gap.
> > Then I thought, why should I change a good design, built by a fine airman?
> But
> > now you give me a good excuse to at least try gap sealing to see how it
> affects
> > my landings.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Michel
> >
> > do not archive
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 18
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert" <Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
Is the 1.3 multiplier a standard margin of error? This weekend was the first
time I flew my 515lbs model II Kitfox. I wondered what my flare should be
Robert
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
kerrjohna@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Question Foxers
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kerrjohna@comcast.net
that sounds alot like when I flare too high in my Classic IV @ 678#s. what
happens on wheel landings? when my flare is correct there is little
difference between a wheel landing and a three point. For me, my landings
got better as I lowered my approach speed.
stall speed (40+/-)x1.3= 52mph. your numbers may vary.
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper" <spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
>
> I'd like to thank everyone who jumped in on this with your terrific ideas
> regarding my landing challenge. The bird is an Avid Mark IV Heavy
> Hauler/STOL so it has the long wing...but I don't see much stol in it!!!
In
> fact, it pretty much flys like a 172 (in terms of responsivness), but with
a
> lot better climb. That surprised the heck out of me because the bird came
in
> so light when the building was completed last March. I did add a little
more
> weight when I swapped out my Rotax 670 RAVE and installed my Jabiru 2200.
> The Jab weighed a little over 2 lbs heavier and I did install an Odyssey
625
> battery which is a pound heavier than the Yeaseu(sp) I had before. So, I'm
> at 915 lbs at takeoff and CG is well withen range, but more forward than
I'd
> like it to be. Not bad, but I thought I'd see a lot more "low and slow"
out
> of this bird. Typically, I climb to 400ft. agl by the time I hit the end
of
> our 3000' runway. Not sure how that compares to you Foxers. Anyway, I'm
> going to gap seal my elevator and see if that helps. I cross the numbers
at
> 65, I'm going to try to maintain a little faster speed through the flair.
I
> have plenty of elevator authority so I'm not "running out". It's just so
> weird what this plane does you know...Everything is set up on final, all
the
> numbers are right. No crosswind, no bumping. Straight down the centerline.
> Now, start to ease back on the stick. Watch airspeed. Easy. Now begin to
> hold it off, hold it off, easy, easy...ease back, ease back...NOW! it
drops
> out. I clench my teeth waiting for the impact of the mains on hard runway.
> Not too bad this time, but I feel the bungees working as the gear legs
snap
> back into position. Keeping the bird straight by dancing on the peddles,
> next the tail wheel springs and a moment later the mains touch again, and
> then the tailwheel, now the mains again...a couple more times for good
> measure...and all the while I'm fighting to keep her straight as my speed
> bleeds off from 50 or so...keep her straight. Catch that drift to the
> right...that's it...nice and straight. Now my speed is down to twenty or
> so...breath...that's it...OK-got it! Well guys, that's sort of what it's
> like in mine. If I could figure out a way to even make them 10% better I'd
> be happy. Thanks for all the great advice on this one guys. Take care.
>
> Steve
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michel Verheughe" <michel@online.no>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Question Foxers
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
> >
> > jimshumaker wrote:
> > > My Kitfox III liked to hobby horse on the three point landings before
I
> > > sealed the gap on the elevator. The elevator did not have enough
power
> to
> > > pull the wing into a stall attitude that would let the tail wheel
touch
> at
> > > or before the mains. By landing on the mains first, the nose pitched
up
> and
> > > the tail touched and popped the nose back down and touched the mains.
> While
> > > shooting touch and goes the tower would clear me for bounce and goes.
> >
> > Interesting reading, Jim. First I was thinking of sealing my elevator's
> gap.
> > Then I thought, why should I change a good design, built by a fine
airman?
> But
> > now you give me a good excuse to at least try gap sealing to see how it
> affects
> > my landings.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Michel
> >
> > do not archive
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Question Foxers - AOA system |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff.hays@aselia.com" <jeff.hays@aselia.com>
Too much speed is what it sounds like to me. I fly final at about 60
and am probably at about 50 over the numbers, and I still get some
floating with mine.
Put together some type of aoa indicator, something like the bacon
saver works fine. Go up to altitude, and find out how slowly you can
really fly that thing. You'll probably discover that proper speed
in your plane on base/final is a speed which to somebody used to
a production plane, is a speed which feels quite mushy on the controls.
I think you'll discover that 60 over the numbers is way too fast, which
is why you're flaring, flaring, flaring, falling. My homemade AOA
system indicates about 23-25 degrees at stall, 60 mph gives me
an aoa of about 10 degrees (10-15 to go), at 60 I can really horse it
around a lot with no fear of stalling. BUT at 60 "before" I tested it
I used to think the controls were REALLY soft. Now I know better. Put
some sort of AOA indicator on it, it'll really help.
I'm sure Elbie can speak to this subject. :)
Regards,
Jeff
Original Message:
-----------------
From: kerrjohna@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Question Foxers
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kerrjohna@comcast.net
that sounds alot like when I flare too high in my Classic IV @ 678#s. what
happens on wheel landings? when my flare is correct there is little
difference between a wheel landing and a three point. For me, my landings
got better as I lowered my approach speed.
stall speed (40+/-)x1.3= 52mph. your numbers may vary.
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper" <spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
>
> I'd like to thank everyone who jumped in on this with your terrific ideas
> regarding my landing challenge. The bird is an Avid Mark IV Heavy
> Hauler/STOL so it has the long wing...but I don't see much stol in it!!!
In
> fact, it pretty much flys like a 172 (in terms of responsivness), but
with a
> lot better climb. That surprised the heck out of me because the bird came
in
> so light when the building was completed last March. I did add a little
more
> weight when I swapped out my Rotax 670 RAVE and installed my Jabiru 2200.
> The Jab weighed a little over 2 lbs heavier and I did install an Odyssey
625
> battery which is a pound heavier than the Yeaseu(sp) I had before. So, I'm
> at 915 lbs at takeoff and CG is well withen range, but more forward than
I'd
> like it to be. Not bad, but I thought I'd see a lot more "low and slow"
out
> of this bird. Typically, I climb to 400ft. agl by the time I hit the end
of
> our 3000' runway. Not sure how that compares to you Foxers. Anyway, I'm
> going to gap seal my elevator and see if that helps. I cross the numbers
at
> 65, I'm going to try to maintain a little faster speed through the
flair. I
> have plenty of elevator authority so I'm not "running out". It's just so
> weird what this plane does you know...Everything is set up on final, all
the
> numbers are right. No crosswind, no bumping. Straight down the centerline.
> Now, start to ease back on the stick. Watch airspeed. Easy. Now begin to
> hold it off, hold it off, easy, easy...ease back, ease back...NOW! it
drops
> out. I clench my teeth waiting for the impact of the mains on hard runway.
> Not too bad this time, but I feel the bungees working as the gear legs
snap
> back into position. Keeping the bird straight by dancing on the peddles,
> next the tail wheel springs and a moment later the mains touch again, and
> then the tailwheel, now the mains again...a couple more times for good
> measure...and all the while I'm fighting to keep her straight as my speed
> bleeds off from 50 or so...keep her straight. Catch that drift to the
> right...that's it...nice and straight. Now my speed is down to twenty or
> so...breath...that's it...OK-got it! Well guys, that's sort of what it's
> like in mine. If I could figure out a way to even make them 10% better I'd
> be happy. Thanks for all the great advice on this one guys. Take care.
>
> Steve
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michel Verheughe" <michel@online.no>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Question Foxers
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
> >
> > jimshumaker wrote:
> > > My Kitfox III liked to hobby horse on the three point landings before
I
> > > sealed the gap on the elevator. The elevator did not have enough
power
> to
> > > pull the wing into a stall attitude that would let the tail wheel
touch
> at
> > > or before the mains. By landing on the mains first, the nose pitched
up
> and
> > > the tail touched and popped the nose back down and touched the mains.
> While
> > > shooting touch and goes the tower would clear me for bounce and goes.
> >
> > Interesting reading, Jim. First I was thinking of sealing my elevator's
> gap.
> > Then I thought, why should I change a good design, built by a fine
airman?
> But
> > now you give me a good excuse to at least try gap sealing to see how it
> affects
> > my landings.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Michel
> >
> > do not archive
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | 582 Coolant circuit |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Gary Algate" <algate@attglobal.net>
I wonder if anyone can help me simplify my coolant circuit. I have the new
582 Blue head and the current coolant circuit I have is abysmally
complicated. It works fine but there must be a simper way.
My biggest problem is the exit from the water pump which faces forward,
therefore I have to do a 180 degree turn with this hose to bring it back
down to the radiator. At the moment I use a moulded hose but the overall
circuit looks messy. Is there anyone that can send me photos of their setup
if they have thought of a better way.
Gary Algate
Lite2/582
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Question Foxers |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Vic Jacko" <vicwj@earthlink.net>
Steve, I hate (love) to keep jumping in here but everytime I read your
post below I come up with another idea.
I have not changed my thesis:
The reason the airplane just all of a sudden falls is because it stalls,
duh, I guess we all knew that!
A nose heavy airplane will stall at a higher speed (I guess we knew that
also) than one balanced properly, which is why I have am suggested moving
the CG aft for some serious testing. The only caution is to do this a
little at a time or you could have a wild ride in store.
Nose heavy airplanes are very stable but hard to land especially if it is
a taildragger.(unless you like wheel landings)
Keep us informed so we all can learn.
Vic
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Cooper" <spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Question Foxers
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper" <spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
>
> I'd like to thank everyone who jumped in on this with your terrific ideas
> regarding my landing challenge. The bird is an Avid Mark IV Heavy
> Hauler/STOL so it has the long wing...but I don't see much stol in it!!!
In
> fact, it pretty much flys like a 172 (in terms of responsivness), but with
a
> lot better climb. That surprised the heck out of me because the bird came
in
> so light when the building was completed last March. I did add a little
more
> weight when I swapped out my Rotax 670 RAVE and installed my Jabiru 2200.
> The Jab weighed a little over 2 lbs heavier and I did install an Odyssey
625
> battery which is a pound heavier than the Yeaseu(sp) I had before. So, I'm
> at 915 lbs at takeoff and CG is well withen range, but more forward than
I'd
> like it to be. Not bad, but I thought I'd see a lot more "low and slow"
out
> of this bird. Typically, I climb to 400ft. agl by the time I hit the end
of
> our 3000' runway. Not sure how that compares to you Foxers. Anyway, I'm
> going to gap seal my elevator and see if that helps. I cross the numbers
at
> 65, I'm going to try to maintain a little faster speed through the flair.
I
> have plenty of elevator authority so I'm not "running out". It's just so
> weird what this plane does you know...Everything is set up on final, all
the
> numbers are right. No crosswind, no bumping. Straight down the centerline.
> Now, start to ease back on the stick. Watch airspeed. Easy. Now begin to
> hold it off, hold it off, easy, easy...ease back, ease back...NOW! it
drops
> out. I clench my teeth waiting for the impact of the mains on hard runway.
> Not too bad this time, but I feel the bungees working as the gear legs
snap
> back into position. Keeping the bird straight by dancing on the peddles,
> next the tail wheel springs and a moment later the mains touch again, and
> then the tailwheel, now the mains again...a couple more times for good
> measure...and all the while I'm fighting to keep her straight as my speed
> bleeds off from 50 or so...keep her straight. Catch that drift to the
> right...that's it...nice and straight. Now my speed is down to twenty or
> so...breath...that's it...OK-got it! Well guys, that's sort of what it's
> like in mine. If I could figure out a way to even make them 10% better I'd
> be happy. Thanks for all the great advice on this one guys. Take care.
>
> Steve
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michel Verheughe" <michel@online.no>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Question Foxers
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
> >
> > jimshumaker wrote:
> > > My Kitfox III liked to hobby horse on the three point landings before
I
> > > sealed the gap on the elevator. The elevator did not have enough
power
> to
> > > pull the wing into a stall attitude that would let the tail wheel
touch
> at
> > > or before the mains. By landing on the mains first, the nose pitched
up
> and
> > > the tail touched and popped the nose back down and touched the mains.
> While
> > > shooting touch and goes the tower would clear me for bounce and goes.
> >
> > Interesting reading, Jim. First I was thinking of sealing my elevator's
> gap.
> > Then I thought, why should I change a good design, built by a fine
airman?
> But
> > now you give me a good excuse to at least try gap sealing to see how it
> affects
> > my landings.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Michel
> >
> > do not archive
> >
> >
>
>
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | Re: Question Foxers |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper" <spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
EAA did another weight an balance after the engine swap. It's withen range
BUT it is in the forward range.
Is this a clue: When I flew it the first time with the Jab I had to dial in
more UP elevator trim. I had to raise the elevator to push the tail down to
bring the nose up for straight and level cruise.
Strangely enough, the tail doesn't come up REAL easy. With the stick all the
way forward... throttle up standing on the brakes...it takes about 50' to
bring the tail up.
Engine swap put heavy stuff forward. THAT's IT!! I had the huge Rotax 618
muffler system hanging under the floor boards! Now everything is forward of
the firewall. Yep...shift in CG has made all the difference. How much weight
do I add and where do I add it? My battery is 12 lbs and is mounted above
the control mixer. I have a luggage compartment...I could try putting 30
lbs. (the limit) in there and see how it handles...I may wind up flying
around with a duffle bag full of books back there. I'll try it next time I
fly which will be wednsday morning.
Thanks for the help guys!!!
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vic Jacko" <vicwj@earthlink.net>
Subject: Fw: Kitfox-List: Question Foxers
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Vic Jacko" <vicwj@earthlink.net>
>
> Steve, A few more questions..
>
> Is it real easy to get the tail off the ground at the start of a high
speed
> taxi?
>
> Does the airplane need a lot of elevator to cause it to lift off with a
tail
> high taxi run?
>
> Did you do another weight/ balance of the airplane following the engine
> change?
>
> Your engine change may have put heavy engine stuff further forward than
> the old package.
>
> thanks,
>
> Vic
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Vic Jacko" <vicwj@earthlink.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Question Foxers
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Vic Jacko" <vicwj@earthlink.net>
> >
> > Steve, I sure sounds like you have a huge case of nose heaviness. The
> > speeds of your approach and touchdown is indicative of this problem.
> >
> > Try this:
> >
> > Fill the tanks full
> >
> > Put as much baggage as you can in the cargo assuming you have one behind
> you
> > and can carry the max load of this area..
> >
> > Fly solo if this will move the CG to the rear.
> >
> > If you can't shift the CG as above then "bolt some ballast" as far to
> the
> > rear near the tail as you can. I would start with no more than 5 lbs
at
> > first.
> >
> > I will bet that you aircraft is "very stable in pitch" while in flight.
> >
> > I hope Kurt S is reading this and adds to the comments as I learned a
lot
> > from him in this area.
> >
> > Keep us advised as to your progress..
> >
> >
> > Vic
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Steve Cooper" <spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
> > To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Question Foxers
> >
> >
> > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper"
> <spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
> > >
> > > I'd like to thank everyone who jumped in on this with your terrific
> ideas
> > > regarding my landing challenge. The bird is an Avid Mark IV Heavy
> > > Hauler/STOL so it has the long wing...but I don't see much stol in
it!!!
> > In
> > > fact, it pretty much flys like a 172 (in terms of responsivness), but
> with
> > a
> > > lot better climb. That surprised the heck out of me because the bird
> came
> > in
> > > so light when the building was completed last March. I did add a
little
> > more
> > > weight when I swapped out my Rotax 670 RAVE and installed my Jabiru
> 2200.
> > > The Jab weighed a little over 2 lbs heavier and I did install an
Odyssey
> > 625
> > > battery which is a pound heavier than the Yeaseu(sp) I had before. So,
> I'm
> > > at 915 lbs at takeoff and CG is well withen range, but more forward
than
> > I'd
> > > like it to be. Not bad, but I thought I'd see a lot more "low and
slow"
> > out
> > > of this bird. Typically, I climb to 400ft. agl by the time I hit the
> end
> > of
> > > our 3000' runway. Not sure how that compares to you Foxers. Anyway,
I'm
> > > going to gap seal my elevator and see if that helps. I cross the
> numbers
> > at
> > > 65, I'm going to try to maintain a little faster speed through the
> flair.
> > I
> > > have plenty of elevator authority so I'm not "running out". It's just
so
> > > weird what this plane does you know...Everything is set up on final,
all
> > the
> > > numbers are right. No crosswind, no bumping. Straight down the
> centerline.
> > > Now, start to ease back on the stick. Watch airspeed. Easy. Now begin
to
> > > hold it off, hold it off, easy, easy...ease back, ease back...NOW! it
> > drops
> > > out. I clench my teeth waiting for the impact of the mains on hard
> runway.
> > > Not too bad this time, but I feel the bungees working as the gear legs
> > snap
> > > back into position. Keeping the bird straight by dancing on the
peddles,
> > > next the tail wheel springs and a moment later the mains touch again,
> and
> > > then the tailwheel, now the mains again...a couple more times for good
> > > measure...and all the while I'm fighting to keep her straight as my
> speed
> > > bleeds off from 50 or so...keep her straight. Catch that drift to the
> > > right...that's it...nice and straight. Now my speed is down to twenty
or
> > > so...breath...that's it...OK-got it! Well guys, that's sort of what
it's
> > > like in mine. If I could figure out a way to even make them 10% better
> I'd
> > > be happy. Thanks for all the great advice on this one guys. Take care.
> > >
> > > Steve
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Michel Verheughe" <michel@online.no>
> > > To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Question Foxers
> > >
> > >
> > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe
<michel@online.no>
> > > >
> > > > jimshumaker wrote:
> > > > > My Kitfox III liked to hobby horse on the three point landings
> before
> > I
> > > > > sealed the gap on the elevator. The elevator did not have enough
> > power
> > > to
> > > > > pull the wing into a stall attitude that would let the tail wheel
> > touch
> > > at
> > > > > or before the mains. By landing on the mains first, the nose
> pitched
> > up
> > > and
> > > > > the tail touched and popped the nose back down and touched the
> mains.
> > > While
> > > > > shooting touch and goes the tower would clear me for bounce and
> goes.
> > > >
> > > > Interesting reading, Jim. First I was thinking of sealing my
> elevator's
> > > gap.
> > > > Then I thought, why should I change a good design, built by a fine
> > airman?
> > > But
> > > > now you give me a good excuse to at least try gap sealing to see how
> it
> > > affects
> > > > my landings.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Michel
> > > >
> > > > do not archive
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Question Foxers |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper" <spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
What kind of speed do you guys get off the ground? I'm a bunch faster than I
thought it would be...46 mph. I havn't tried stalls since the engine swap.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: <kerrjohna@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Question Foxers
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kerrjohna@comcast.net
>
> that sounds alot like when I flare too high in my Classic IV @ 678#s. what
happens on wheel landings? when my flare is correct there is little
difference between a wheel landing and a three point. For me, my landings
got better as I lowered my approach speed.
>
> stall speed (40+/-)x1.3= 52mph. your numbers may vary.
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper"
<spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
> >
> > I'd like to thank everyone who jumped in on this with your terrific
ideas
> > regarding my landing challenge. The bird is an Avid Mark IV Heavy
> > Hauler/STOL so it has the long wing...but I don't see much stol in it!!!
In
> > fact, it pretty much flys like a 172 (in terms of responsivness), but
with a
> > lot better climb. That surprised the heck out of me because the bird
came in
> > so light when the building was completed last March. I did add a little
more
> > weight when I swapped out my Rotax 670 RAVE and installed my Jabiru
2200.
> > The Jab weighed a little over 2 lbs heavier and I did install an Odyssey
625
> > battery which is a pound heavier than the Yeaseu(sp) I had before. So,
I'm
> > at 915 lbs at takeoff and CG is well withen range, but more forward than
I'd
> > like it to be. Not bad, but I thought I'd see a lot more "low and slow"
out
> > of this bird. Typically, I climb to 400ft. agl by the time I hit the
end of
>
> > our 3000' runway. Not sure how that compares to you Foxers. Anyway, I'm
> > going to gap seal my elevator and see if that helps. I cross the
numbers at
> > 65, I'm going to try to maintain a little faster speed through the
flair. I
> > have plenty of elevator authority so I'm not "running out". It's just so
> > weird what this plane does you know...Everything is set up on final, all
the
> > numbers are right. No crosswind, no bumping. Straight down the
centerline.
> > Now, start to ease back on the stick. Watch airspeed. Easy. Now begin to
> > hold it off, hold it off, easy, easy...ease back, ease back...NOW! it
drops
> > out. I clench my teeth waiting for the impact of the mains on hard
runway.
> > Not too bad this time, but I feel the bungees working as the gear legs
snap
> > back into position. Keeping the bird straight by dancing on the peddles,
> > next the tail wheel springs and a moment later the mains touch again,
and
> > then the tailwheel, now the mains again...a couple more times for good
>
> > measure...and all the while I'm fighting to keep her straight as my
speed
> > bleeds off from 50 or so...keep her straight. Catch that drift to the
> > right...that's it...nice and straight. Now my speed is down to twenty or
> > so...breath...that's it...OK-got it! Well guys, that's sort of what it's
> > like in mine. If I could figure out a way to even make them 10% better
I'd
> > be happy. Thanks for all the great advice on this one guys. Take care.
> >
> > Steve
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Michel Verheughe" <michel@online.no>
> > To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Question Foxers
> >
> >
> > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
> > >
> > > jimshumaker wrote:
> > > > My Kitfox III liked to hobby horse on the three point landings
before I
> > > > sealed the gap on the elevator. The elevator did not have enough
power
> > to
> > > > pull the wing into a stall attitude that would let the tail wheel
touch
> > at
>
> > > > or before the mains. By landing on the mains first, the nose
pitched up
> > and
> > > > the tail touched and popped the nose back down and touched the
mains.
> > While
> > > > shooting touch and goes the tower would clear me for bounce and
goes.
> > >
> > > Interesting reading, Jim. First I was thinking of sealing my
elevator's
> > gap.
> > > Then I thought, why should I change a good design, built by a fine
airman?
> > But
> > > now you give me a good excuse to at least try gap sealing to see how
it
> > affects
> > > my landings.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Michel
> > >
> > > do not archive
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 24
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|
| Subject: | Re: Question Foxers - AOA system |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper" <spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
I tried a really slow approach this weekend at General Fox Field (lots of
runway) I slowed her down to 55. Yikes! controls got REAL mushy and it did
this little side slip (stall) I dropped the noise and goosed here a little.
Got back in shape at 65 or so and re-entered glide and flair for another
"bottom dropped out" landing. ;)
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: <jeff.hays@aselia.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Question Foxers - AOA system
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff.hays@aselia.com"
<jeff.hays@aselia.com>
>
>
> Too much speed is what it sounds like to me. I fly final at about 60
> and am probably at about 50 over the numbers, and I still get some
> floating with mine.
>
> Put together some type of aoa indicator, something like the bacon
> saver works fine. Go up to altitude, and find out how slowly you can
> really fly that thing. You'll probably discover that proper speed
> in your plane on base/final is a speed which to somebody used to
> a production plane, is a speed which feels quite mushy on the controls.
> I think you'll discover that 60 over the numbers is way too fast, which
> is why you're flaring, flaring, flaring, falling. My homemade AOA
> system indicates about 23-25 degrees at stall, 60 mph gives me
> an aoa of about 10 degrees (10-15 to go), at 60 I can really horse it
> around a lot with no fear of stalling. BUT at 60 "before" I tested it
> I used to think the controls were REALLY soft. Now I know better. Put
> some sort of AOA indicator on it, it'll really help.
>
> I'm sure Elbie can speak to this subject. :)
>
> Regards,
> Jeff
>
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: kerrjohna@comcast.net
> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 19:35:53 +0000
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Question Foxers
>
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kerrjohna@comcast.net
>
> that sounds alot like when I flare too high in my Classic IV @ 678#s. what
> happens on wheel landings? when my flare is correct there is little
> difference between a wheel landing and a three point. For me, my landings
> got better as I lowered my approach speed.
>
> stall speed (40+/-)x1.3= 52mph. your numbers may vary.
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper"
<spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
> >
> > I'd like to thank everyone who jumped in on this with your terrific
ideas
> > regarding my landing challenge. The bird is an Avid Mark IV Heavy
> > Hauler/STOL so it has the long wing...but I don't see much stol in it!!!
> In
> > fact, it pretty much flys like a 172 (in terms of responsivness), but
> with a
> > lot better climb. That surprised the heck out of me because the bird
came
> in
> > so light when the building was completed last March. I did add a little
> more
> > weight when I swapped out my Rotax 670 RAVE and installed my Jabiru
2200.
> > The Jab weighed a little over 2 lbs heavier and I did install an Odyssey
> 625
> > battery which is a pound heavier than the Yeaseu(sp) I had before. So,
I'm
> > at 915 lbs at takeoff and CG is well withen range, but more forward than
> I'd
> > like it to be. Not bad, but I thought I'd see a lot more "low and slow"
> out
> > of this bird. Typically, I climb to 400ft. agl by the time I hit the
end
> of
>
> > our 3000' runway. Not sure how that compares to you Foxers. Anyway, I'm
> > going to gap seal my elevator and see if that helps. I cross the
numbers
> at
> > 65, I'm going to try to maintain a little faster speed through the
> flair. I
> > have plenty of elevator authority so I'm not "running out". It's just so
> > weird what this plane does you know...Everything is set up on final, all
> the
> > numbers are right. No crosswind, no bumping. Straight down the
centerline.
> > Now, start to ease back on the stick. Watch airspeed. Easy. Now begin to
> > hold it off, hold it off, easy, easy...ease back, ease back...NOW! it
> drops
> > out. I clench my teeth waiting for the impact of the mains on hard
runway.
> > Not too bad this time, but I feel the bungees working as the gear legs
> snap
> > back into position. Keeping the bird straight by dancing on the peddles,
> > next the tail wheel springs and a moment later the mains touch again,
and
> > then the tailwheel, now the mains again...a couple more times for good
>
> > measure...and all the while I'm fighting to keep her straight as my
speed
> > bleeds off from 50 or so...keep her straight. Catch that drift to the
> > right...that's it...nice and straight. Now my speed is down to twenty or
> > so...breath...that's it...OK-got it! Well guys, that's sort of what it's
> > like in mine. If I could figure out a way to even make them 10% better
I'd
> > be happy. Thanks for all the great advice on this one guys. Take care.
> >
> > Steve
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Michel Verheughe" <michel@online.no>
> > To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Question Foxers
> >
> >
> > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
> > >
> > > jimshumaker wrote:
> > > > My Kitfox III liked to hobby horse on the three point landings
before
> I
> > > > sealed the gap on the elevator. The elevator did not have enough
> power
> > to
> > > > pull the wing into a stall attitude that would let the tail wheel
> touch
> > at
>
> > > > or before the mains. By landing on the mains first, the nose
pitched
> up
> > and
> > > > the tail touched and popped the nose back down and touched the
mains.
> > While
> > > > shooting touch and goes the tower would clear me for bounce and
goes.
> > >
> > > Interesting reading, Jim. First I was thinking of sealing my
elevator's
> > gap.
> > > Then I thought, why should I change a good design, built by a fine
> airman?
> > But
> > > now you give me a good excuse to at least try gap sealing to see how
it
> > affects
> > > my landings.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Michel
> > >
> > > do not archive
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | 582 Coolant circuit |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Glenn Horne" <glennflys@rcn.com>
I think you can turn the water pump around.
Glenn
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gary Algate
Subject: Kitfox-List: 582 Coolant circuit
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Gary Algate" <algate@attglobal.net>
I wonder if anyone can help me simplify my coolant circuit. I have the new
582 Blue head and the current coolant circuit I have is abysmally
complicated. It works fine but there must be a simper way.
My biggest problem is the exit from the water pump which faces forward,
therefore I have to do a 180 degree turn with this hose to bring it back
down to the radiator. At the moment I use a moulded hose but the overall
circuit looks messy. Is there anyone that can send me photos of their setup
if they have thought of a better way.
Gary Algate
Lite2/582
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: 582 Coolant circuit |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper" <spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
Hi Gary, I know a guy who is a REAL pro at the cooling circuits on the
liquid cooled Rotax engines. He's been doing Rotax for years and he's a
really good guy. Why not give him a post. His web site is: www.trikite.com
His name is Mark Smith. He was a stress engineer at BMW for several
years...the guy really knows his stuff. His motto is "simpler is better".
Hope this helps.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Algate" <algate@attglobal.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: 582 Coolant circuit
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Gary Algate" <algate@attglobal.net>
>
> I wonder if anyone can help me simplify my coolant circuit. I have the new
> 582 Blue head and the current coolant circuit I have is abysmally
> complicated. It works fine but there must be a simper way.
>
> My biggest problem is the exit from the water pump which faces forward,
> therefore I have to do a 180 degree turn with this hose to bring it back
> down to the radiator. At the moment I use a moulded hose but the overall
> circuit looks messy. Is there anyone that can send me photos of their
setup
> if they have thought of a better way.
>
> Gary Algate
> Lite2/582
>
>
Message 27
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|
| Subject: | Re: GPS & Autopilot |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jimshumaker" <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net>
However, just because I may have an autopilot on the plane does not mean I
would not carry and use my Anywhere map. The friend of mine who introduced
me to Anywhere map uses his as a primary nav instrument in a Cessna Citation
Jet. That is until the going gets iffy, then he swithces to other
intruments for primary.
Jim Shumaker
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: GPS & Autopilot |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper" <spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
I havn't followed this too closely, so please bear with me. I have a
question: Will a Garmin 196 drive an Autopilot?
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "jimshumaker" <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: GPS & Autopilot
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jimshumaker"
<jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net>
>
> However, just because I may have an autopilot on the plane does not mean
I
> would not carry and use my Anywhere map. The friend of mine who
introduced
> me to Anywhere map uses his as a primary nav instrument in a Cessna
Citation
> Jet. That is until the going gets iffy, then he swithces to other
> intruments for primary.
>
> Jim Shumaker
>
>
Message 29
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|
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Hi Robert,
Well, not margin for error, but desired approach speed
is 1.3 x stall speed before the flare. I started my
testing with approaches at 65, then 60. Landings were
not good. Floats and bounces. Once I had established
my stall at initial test weight as 40 indicated, I did
my approaches at 52 and the landings were much better.
The plane sat right down after a short flare and
didn't try to fly again. I used 1/2 the runway.
Best proceedure is to go up high and clear your
airspace. Then do a stall hawking the speed, keeping
the verticle speed level, and the ball in the middle.
Recover right at the break. Clear the space again and
do another to confirm the stall speed.
When you return to land, use the 1.3 times the stall
speed for the final and trim right to it. The
landings will be as predicticable as your speed
control allows.
Of course that only applies to that current weight.
This is where an AOA system really helps. You can set
your AOA system for the stall speed +5 as a warning
and to the stall speed + 1.3 times stall for the
approach. Then it will always "do the math" for you
whatever the weight and you will always get consistant
landings. You can just about forget the airspeed for
anything except bragging rights. Navigate by GPS GS,
fly desired fuel flow, and approach and land by AOA.
Kurt S.
--- "Harris, Robert" <Robert_Harris@intuit.com> wrote:
> Is the 1.3 multiplier a standard margin of error?
> This weekend was the first
> time I flew my 515lbs model II Kitfox. I wondered
> what my flare should be
>
> Robert
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Question Foxers |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kerrjohna@comcast.net
apart from adjusting CG etc; if you are lifting off at 46, you probably ought to
be pretty close (lower) in the flare
and check your angle of "repose" on the ground looking at end of the runway. That
should be your attitude in a three point landing. The nose might be over flared
as well as too high/too fast.
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper" <spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
>
> What kind of speed do you guys get off the ground? I'm a bunch faster than I
> thought it would be...46 mph. I havn't tried stalls since the engine swap.
>
> Steve
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <kerrjohna@comcast.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Question Foxers
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kerrjohna@comcast.net
> >
> > that sounds alot like when I flare too high in my Classic IV @ 678#s. what
> happens on wheel landings? when my flare is correct there is little
> difference between a wheel landing and a three point. For me, my landings
> got better as I lowered my approach speed.
> >
> > stall speed (40+/-)x1.3= 52mph. your numbers may vary.
> > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper"
> <spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
> > >
> > > I'd like to thank everyone who jumped in on this with your terrific
> ideas
> > > regarding my landing challenge. The bird is an Avid Mark IV Heavy
> > > Hauler/STOL so it has the long wing...but I don't see much stol in it!!!
> In
> > > fact, it pretty much flys like a 172 (in terms of responsivness), but
> with a
> > > lot better climb. That surprised the heck out of me because the bird
> came in
> > > so light when the building was completed last March. I did add a little
> more
> > > weight when I swapped out my Rotax 670 RAVE and installed my Jabiru
> 2200.
> > > The Jab weighed a little over 2 lbs heavier and I did install an Odyssey
> 625
> > > battery which is a pound heavier than the Yeaseu(sp) I had before. So,
> I'm
> > > at 915 lbs at takeoff and CG is well withen range, but more forward than
> I'd
> > > like it to be. Not bad, but I thought I'd see a lot more "low and slow"
> out
> > > of this bird. Typically, I climb to 400ft. agl by the time I hit the
> end of
> >
> > > our 3000' runway. Not sure how that compares to you Foxers. Anyway, I'm
> > > going to gap seal my elevator and see if that helps. I cross the
> numbers at
> > > 65, I'm going to try to maintain a little faster speed through the
> flair. I
> > > have plenty of elevator authority so I'm not "running out". It's just so
> > > weird what this plane does you know...Everything is set up on final, all
> the
> > > numbers are right. No crosswind, no bumping. Straight down the
> centerline.
> > > Now, start to ease back on the stick. Watch airspeed. Easy. Now begin to
> > > hold it off, hold it off, easy, easy...ease back, ease back...NOW! it
> drops
> > > out. I clench my teeth waiting for the impact of the mains on hard
> runway.
> > > Not too bad this time, but I feel the bungees working as the gear legs
> snap
> > > back into position. Keeping the bird straight by dancing on the peddles,
> > > next the tail wheel springs and a moment later the mains touch again,
> and
> > > then the tailwheel, now the mains again...a couple more times for good
> >
> > > measure...and all the while I'm fighting to keep her straight as my
> speed
> > > bleeds off from 50 or so...keep her straight. Catch that drift to the
> > > right...that's it...nice and straight. Now my speed is down to twenty or
> > > so...breath...that's it...OK-got it! Well guys, that's sort of what it's
> > > like in mine. If I could figure out a way to even make them 10% better
> I'd
> > > be happy. Thanks for all the great advice on this one guys. Take care.
> > >
> > > Steve
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Michel Verheughe" <michel@online.no>
> > > To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Question Foxers
> > >
> > >
> > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
> > > >
> > > > jimshumaker wrote:
> > > > > My Kitfox III liked to hobby horse on the three point landings
> before I
> > > > > sealed the gap on the elevator. The elevator did not have enough
> power
> > > to
> > > > > pull the wing into a stall attitude that would let the tail wheel
> touch
> > > at
> >
> > > > > or before the mains. By landing on the mains first, the nose
> pitched up
> > > and
> > > > > the tail touched and popped the nose back down and touched the
> mains.
> > > While
> > > > > shooting touch and goes the tower would clear me for bounce and
> goes.
> > > >
> > > > Interesting reading, Jim. First I was thinking of sealing my
> elevator's
> > > gap.
> > > > Then I thought, why should I change a good design, built by a fine
> airman?
> > > But
> > > > now you give me a good excuse to at least try gap sealing to see how
> it
> > > affects
> > > > my landings.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Michel
> > > >
> > > > do not archive
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Question Foxers |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Ok Vic. You made me do it. :-)
Steve, I think I hear several problems here rather
than just one. First, Vic is right. Check that CG
and plan a load out to put it right in the middle of
your range. Do a work sheet so you know right where
it really is. If full cargo does not move it into the
middle with full tanks and two aboard, you are really
nose heavy. A full plane should have you close to the
rear limit. Testing with you, full fuel and cargo
should be about in the middle to a little aft of
middle. Check it.
If you are nose heavy with a normal load and not near
the aft limit with a full load, plan later to move
required stuff aft, like the battery. Only add dead
weight to the tail as a last resort. A few pounds in
the tail make a big difference. You can go right past
good to worse - tail heavy.
Next, I agree with the "flare too high" conclusion.
You should arrive at the stall within 6" of the runway
or less if you can. It always seems otherwise, but
that is best accomplished by looking way out at the
world and not at the runway nearby. Looking too close
is called "spotting the runway" and makes for worse
landings. With practice, you know how high you are
just as if it was your butt and not the wheels sliding
over the runway. Doesn't matter how big or small the
plane is, it feels the same. You get the right
feeling when you taxi out. Remember that height.
Look at the whole world from that height. Hold it off
right at 6" above that to land. It can't fall enough
to bounce much then. If you hold it off to the stall,
it can't pitch over because it is too close, and it
won't leave the ground again because it is stalled.
No teeth clenching falls and bounces.
It is amazing how we can return right to the correct
height when watching the world come up to us. If you
go outside and stand looking at the world, then climb
one step while still looking, you can really see the
difference. Same when you step back down. You know
that is "your" height. Our caveman brains seem to
think it is important to know.
Third, I am wondering about your indicated stall
speed. At 55 you shouldn't feel like you are on the
edge, unless you are heavy. Several possible problems
here. Inaccurate ASI/static pressure. A poor wing
leading edge giving you a poor stall. Nose heavy and
not enough elevator.
I suggest you go up high and do some stalls to
establish your real stall speed. Do the pattern at
1.5 times that and the final approach at 1.3 times
that. Trim to all speeds, but not in the flare or
after. Trimming and scanning will keep you on speed.
Add the gap seal. It can't hurt, unless you add a
poor one and something gets trapped in it causing a
jam. With this design, that is unlikely, except in
winter.
So, CG, landing height, approach and stall speed, and
gap seal. :-) That should fix it Steve, or sour my
reputation with Vic.
Now if you really want to be consistantly good, get
that AOA indicator too. Once that is programmed to
your plane, you only have to watch the lights when
flying and hold the 6" flare to land.
Kurt S.
--- Vic Jacko <vicwj@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Steve, I sure sounds like you have a huge case of
> nose heaviness. The
> speeds of your approach and touchdown is indicative
> of this problem.
>
> .......
> I hope Kurt S is reading this and adds to the
> comments as I learned a lot from him in this area.
>
> Keep us advised as to your progress..
> Vic
__________________________________
http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Question Foxers |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jimshumaker" <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net>
Robert
1.3 is a standard short approach speed. I confirm my stall speed before
each short field approach. There can easily be 5 mph difference between
solo and dual. That would be a 7 mph difference in approach speeds. Your
approach would be within 4 mph of stall.
I wheel landed for a year or two until I sealed the gap and put Vortex
generators on the wings. Oh yeah, and logged a few hundred landings into
short fields.
Jim Shumaker
Message 33
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jimshumaker" <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net>
Leo Rice was a consumate gentleman. We will all miss him.
Jim Shumaker
Message 34
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
I agree.
I didn't buy his plane, but I kept pictures of it and
talked to him a few times off the list. One of the
best in all ways...
Kurt S.
--- jimshumaker <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jimshumaker"
> <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net>
>
> Leo Rice was a consumate gentleman. We will all
> miss him.
>
> Jim Shumaker
__________________________________
http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Question Foxers |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper" <spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
Thank you Kurt for a very comprehensive analysis of my problem. I really
appreciate all the help you guys have offered. I plan on attacking this
issue and solving it. I will let you know how things go over the next week
or so. The first thing I'm going to do is re-check my CG calculations and go
from there. We'll see what happens! :)
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "kurt schrader" <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Question Foxers
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
<smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
>
> Ok Vic. You made me do it. :-)
>
> Steve, I think I hear several problems here rather
> than just one. First, Vic is right. Check that CG
> and plan a load out to put it right in the middle of
> your range. Do a work sheet so you know right where
> it really is. If full cargo does not move it into the
> middle with full tanks and two aboard, you are really
> nose heavy. A full plane should have you close to the
> rear limit. Testing with you, full fuel and cargo
> should be about in the middle to a little aft of
> middle. Check it.
>
> If you are nose heavy with a normal load and not near
> the aft limit with a full load, plan later to move
> required stuff aft, like the battery. Only add dead
> weight to the tail as a last resort. A few pounds in
> the tail make a big difference. You can go right past
> good to worse - tail heavy.
>
> Next, I agree with the "flare too high" conclusion.
> You should arrive at the stall within 6" of the runway
> or less if you can. It always seems otherwise, but
> that is best accomplished by looking way out at the
> world and not at the runway nearby. Looking too close
> is called "spotting the runway" and makes for worse
> landings. With practice, you know how high you are
> just as if it was your butt and not the wheels sliding
> over the runway. Doesn't matter how big or small the
> plane is, it feels the same. You get the right
> feeling when you taxi out. Remember that height.
> Look at the whole world from that height. Hold it off
> right at 6" above that to land. It can't fall enough
> to bounce much then. If you hold it off to the stall,
> it can't pitch over because it is too close, and it
> won't leave the ground again because it is stalled.
> No teeth clenching falls and bounces.
>
> It is amazing how we can return right to the correct
> height when watching the world come up to us. If you
> go outside and stand looking at the world, then climb
> one step while still looking, you can really see the
> difference. Same when you step back down. You know
> that is "your" height. Our caveman brains seem to
> think it is important to know.
>
> Third, I am wondering about your indicated stall
> speed. At 55 you shouldn't feel like you are on the
> edge, unless you are heavy. Several possible problems
> here. Inaccurate ASI/static pressure. A poor wing
> leading edge giving you a poor stall. Nose heavy and
> not enough elevator.
>
> I suggest you go up high and do some stalls to
> establish your real stall speed. Do the pattern at
> 1.5 times that and the final approach at 1.3 times
> that. Trim to all speeds, but not in the flare or
> after. Trimming and scanning will keep you on speed.
>
> Add the gap seal. It can't hurt, unless you add a
> poor one and something gets trapped in it causing a
> jam. With this design, that is unlikely, except in
> winter.
>
> So, CG, landing height, approach and stall speed, and
> gap seal. :-) That should fix it Steve, or sour my
> reputation with Vic.
>
> Now if you really want to be consistantly good, get
> that AOA indicator too. Once that is programmed to
> your plane, you only have to watch the lights when
> flying and hold the 6" flare to land.
>
> Kurt S.
>
> --- Vic Jacko <vicwj@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> > Steve, I sure sounds like you have a huge case of
> > nose heaviness. The
> > speeds of your approach and touchdown is indicative
> > of this problem.
> >
> > .......
> > I hope Kurt S is reading this and adds to the
> > comments as I learned a lot from him in this area.
> >
> > Keep us advised as to your progress..
>
> > Vic
>
>
> __________________________________
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/
>
>
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Question Foxers |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
You got it right Steve. W&B and CG first...
If it is any help, I remember the times when Don S.
never left the pattern and the tower questioned him
the first time he finally did! Engine clutch problems
stopped him from having fun for a while.
And I started this year out, Jan 1, 2004, with a
flight that had only one takeoff and seven landings?
That was after about a 1000' float! It looked good on
tape, like I planned to land long and stop at my
hanger at the far end, but it was really a fast
approach and touchdown where I kept the bounces below
8" or so. Shucks.... What a way to start the year.
Kurt S.
Pleazzzzze do not archive. :-)
--- Steve Cooper <spdrflyr@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Thank you Kurt for a very comprehensive analysis of
> my problem. I really
> appreciate all the help you guys have offered. I
> plan on attacking this
> issue and solving it. I will let you know how things
> go over the next week
> or so. The first thing I'm going to do is re-check
> my CG calculations and go
> from there. We'll see what happens! :)
>
> Steve
__________________________________
http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: To drag or not to drag.......Radiator Scoops |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Jeff,
There definitely must be something holding you
back.... Keep after that and see if you can clean it
up. The scoop should help.
Kurt S.
--- Jeff Smathers <jsmathers@cybcon.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> I have my lift struts faired and I am only getting
> 75-80 Kts with my 100 hp and variable pitch NSI
> prop....
>
> Jeff Smathers
>
> Steve Zakreski wrote:
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Steve Zakreski
> <szakreski@shaw.ca>
> >
> > Kurt, the wing strut fairings alone will get you
> to 100 knots. They make a
> > BIG difference on Kitfoxes flying in that speed
> range.
> >
> > SteveZ
__________________________________
http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Question Foxers |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Harrington" <aerowood@mcsi.net>
Hi Steve,
What's your stall speed. at idle?
bh
> I'd like to thank everyone who jumped in on this with your terrific ideas
> regarding my landing challenge. The bird is an Avid Mark IV Heavy
> Hauler/STOL so it has the long wing...but I don't see much stol in it!!! In
> fact, it pretty much flys like a 172 (in terms of responsivness), but with a
> lot better climb. That surprised the heck out of me because the bird came in
> so light when the building was completed last March. I did add a little more
> weight when I swapped out my Rotax 670 RAVE and installed my Jabiru 2200.
> The Jab weighed a little over 2 lbs heavier and I did install an Odyssey 625
> battery which is a pound heavier than the Yeaseu(sp) I had before. So, I'm
> at 915 lbs at takeoff and CG is well withen range, but more forward than I'd
> like it to be. Not bad, but I thought I'd see a lot more "low and slow" out
> of this bird. Typically, I climb to 400ft. agl by the time I hit the end of
> our 3000' runway. Not sure how that compares to you Foxers. Anyway, I'm
> going to gap seal my elevator and see if that helps. I cross the numbers at
> 65, I'm going to try to maintain a little faster speed through the flair. I
> have plenty of elevator authority so I'm not "running out". It's just so
> weird what this plane does you know...Everything is set up on final, all the
> numbers are right. No crosswind, no bumping. Straight down the centerline.
> Now, start to ease back on the stick. Watch airspeed. Easy. Now begin to
> hold it off, hold it off, easy, easy...ease back, ease back...NOW! it drops
> out. I clench my teeth waiting for the impact of the mains on hard runway.
> Not too bad this time, but I feel the bungees working as the gear legs snap
> back into position. Keeping the bird straight by dancing on the peddles,
> next the tail wheel springs and a moment later the mains touch again, and
> then the tailwheel, now the mains again...a couple more times for good
> measure...and all the while I'm fighting to keep her straight as my speed
> bleeds off from 50 or so...keep her straight. Catch that drift to the
> right...that's it...nice and straight. Now my speed is down to twenty or
> so...breath...that's it...OK-got it! Well guys, that's sort of what it's
> like in mine. If I could figure out a way to even make them 10% better I'd
> be happy. Thanks for all the great advice on this one guys. Take care.
>
> Steve
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michel Verheughe" <michel@online.no>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Question Foxers
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
> >
> > jimshumaker wrote:
> > > My Kitfox III liked to hobby horse on the three point landings before I
> > > sealed the gap on the elevator. The elevator did not have enough power
> to
> > > pull the wing into a stall attitude that would let the tail wheel touch
> at
> > > or before the mains. By landing on the mains first, the nose pitched up
> and
> > > the tail touched and popped the nose back down and touched the mains.
> While
> > > shooting touch and goes the tower would clear me for bounce and goes.
> >
> > Interesting reading, Jim. First I was thinking of sealing my elevator's
> gap.
> > Then I thought, why should I change a good design, built by a fine airman?
> But
> > now you give me a good excuse to at least try gap sealing to see how it
> affects
> > my landings.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Michel
> >
> > do not archive
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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