Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:20 AM - Re: Re: Sideslip question (michel)
2. 01:26 AM - Re: Setup comparison..mod3/582/gsc (michel)
3. 01:43 AM - Re: History of Navigation (reprised) (michel)
4. 01:54 AM - Re: Crosswind limits (michel)
5. 08:03 AM - Re: Side-slip technique (jeff.hays@aselia.com)
6. 08:45 AM - Re: Side-slip technique (Lowell Fitt)
7. 09:06 AM - Re: Crosswind limits (daniel johnson)
8. 09:21 AM - Re: Crosswind limits (Vic Jacko)
9. 09:46 AM - Re: Crosswind limits (Harris, Robert)
10. 09:53 AM - Re: Crosswind limits (Harris, Robert)
11. 11:58 AM - Navigation (reprised) (Scott McClintock)
12. 01:53 PM - Re: Side-slip technique (Michel Verheughe)
13. 02:03 PM - Re: Crosswind limits (Michel Verheughe)
14. 02:12 PM - Re: Navigation (reprised) (Michel Verheughe)
15. 02:27 PM - Re: Crosswind limits (Lowell Fitt)
16. 03:08 PM - Re: Crosswind limits (RiteAngle3@aol.com)
17. 04:36 PM - Re: Crosswind limits (daniel johnson)
18. 04:44 PM - Re: Crosswind limits (daniel johnson)
19. 04:50 PM - Re: Crosswind limits (daniel johnson)
20. 04:58 PM - Re: Setup comparison..mod3/582/gsc (daniel johnson)
21. 07:28 PM - Leo Rice & Doolittle (Les Chambers)
22. 09:39 PM - Re: Crosswind limits (RiteAngle3@aol.com)
23. 10:04 PM - Re: Crosswind limits (Clint Bazzill)
24. 10:07 PM - Re: Crosswind limits (daniel johnson)
25. 10:20 PM - Gap Sealing Tape (hausding, sid)
26. 10:32 PM - Re: Crosswind limits (daniel johnson)
27. 10:43 PM - Re: Gap Sealing Tape (Steve Cooper)
28. 10:50 PM - Re: Crosswind limits (RiteAngle3@aol.com)
29. 10:56 PM - Re: Gap Sealing Tape (Don Pearsall)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Sideslip question |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: michel <michel@online.no>
>===== Original Message From "Harris, Robert" <Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
>Sounds like I'm doing it right. My sink rate was around 900 to 1,000 FPM
>with 85 to 90 MPH indicated airspeed. I'm be afraid to go much past 90MPH
>indicated airspeed in a slip because my VNE is only 100mph and I'm sure my
>actual airspeed is more than this. Sometime I'll see if I can get 2,00FPM
>sink rate without folding the wing back.
Gary says that to sink fast, one has to go slow, Robert. I think I'll try
that. Not on final first, but with more than 3,000 ft AGL, to get the feeling
of it, safely.
Cheers,
Michel
Message 2
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| Subject: | Setup comparison..mod3/582/gsc |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: michel <michel@online.no>
>===== Original Message From "daniel johnson" <kitfox91je@hotmail.com> =====
>My EGT sometimes "tries" to get to 1250 on one clylinder...
... Are you sure it's not my plane you're flying, Dan? :-)
I get the same thing at about 5,000 RPM, OAT about 5 deg C, and in a slight
descent.
Cheers,
Michel
Message 3
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| Subject: | History of Navigation (reprised) |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: michel <michel@online.no>
>===== Original Message From Scott McClintock
>What I think is important to this group or anybody really is that (as
>far as pertaining to operating an aircraft), it behooves us to
>understand and to be proficient using the "old fashioned" navigation
>techniques and devices when the tech fails, as it will.
I agree with you, Scott. That's why I don't want to do my chart work on a GPS
but on real old-fashion paper charts. For that purpose, I have photocopied in
A4 formats sections of my ICAO map and laminated them with clear plastic. I
use then a red fat pencil to draw lines and make notes.
Incidentally, I have an astro-navigation question for you that I sent you
direct. No reason to bore our friends on this list with obsolete techniques!
:-)
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 4
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| Subject: | Crosswind limits |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: michel <michel@online.no>
>===== Original Message From "Harris, Robert" <Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
>What are the crosswind limits in a Kitfox II or III?
Well, Robert, for me the limit is nil: I don't do crosswind landings ... yet.
Like you, I fear the ground loop. But I intend to learn. That's the nice thing
with a Kitfox, there is always something new to learn.
Right now I brush up my sideslip technique. I makes sense to keep my upwind
wing down in crosswind. Crosswind and sideslip seems to me to go hand in hand.
Then I'll have to learn to use my flaps, are Gary does.
As I said, never a boring day with a Kitfox and always a good excuse to go out
flying! ... I love it! :-)
Cheers,
Michel
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Side-slip technique |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff.hays@aselia.com" <jeff.hays@aselia.com>
Michel -
When I test flew my airplane, one of the things I tested was cross
controlled flight. What I did was climb up to altitude, chop power,
and then cross controlled (slipped) the airplane until the onset of
a stall. In my series 5, there is a tremendous amount of buffeting
of the turtledeck, well before the actual break. Any little bit of
relaxation of controls IMMEDIATELY brings it back into flying shape.
I think the key here is to take the plane up to altitude, and test fly
your airplane to see how it responds. Talking about it, simply is
not enough. Anybody on the list can say, do this, or do that. But you
really will not know how your airplane will respond until you test it.
My Kitfox, has the most benign stall characteristics of any plane I have
ever flown. You can chop power, hold the stick back, and using rudder only
do a falling leaf mushing descent all the way to the ground if you want.
The slightest power input, or control relaxation immediately brings it
back.
The only time you can get something really exciting, is to do a full power
climbing stall. In which case the climb angle is so steep at the break,
that you get a REALLY radical stall break.
Make yourself a strut mounted angle of attack indicator, it will really
tell you a lot. I made one with about a 1/2" X 30" carbon fiber tube,
with a lexan triangle bolted on the front, which attaches to the jury
strut horizontal tube (via two adel clamps), with a little (6") carbon
fiber missile on a pivot. The Lexan triangle I marked in 10 degree
increments, with colored bands. In level flight I get 0 degrees indicated,
then at 60 mph I get 10 degrees, when I stall the plane it happens at
about 25 degrees.
From the cockpit, I can see it with just a slight glance out the window.
I was originally going to build an electronic AOA using an electronic
rotary position sensor, and drive some led's with an LM3914
led driver. But then decided why bother since the mechanical (homebrew
bacon saver) works so well.
I can't say enough about how much an AOA system helps to learn the
airplane. In my view, the biggest mistake people make flying Kitfox's
is flying them too fast. This causes no end of problems. Go up high
and learn to fly the airplane slllooooowwwwwllllllyyyy.
Regards,
Jeff
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Michel Verheughe michel@online.no
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Side-slip technique
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
"jeff.hays@aselia.com" wrote:
> You can increase sink two ways in a Kitfox slip: Aim the nose down and
> go fast, or pull back and slow down.
Thanks for your answer, Jeff, but I am still uncertain: If I want to
side-slip
and descend faster, do I have to fly faster or slower? At the moment, I keep
65-70 MPH.
I am not sure I'd like to fly slower because ... stalling while
uncoordinated,
isn't it the surest way to get into a spin? I don't ever want to get close
to
that ... at low altitude!
Cheers,
Michel
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Side-slip technique |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
Jeff's stall characteristics are exactly as I have found in my model IV.
The full power stall is exciting to say the least. The wing drop is
instantaneous.
Lowell
Lowell do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: <jeff.hays@aselia.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Side-slip technique
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff.hays@aselia.com"
<jeff.hays@aselia.com>
>
>
> Michel -
>
> When I test flew my airplane, one of the things I tested was cross
> controlled flight. What I did was climb up to altitude, chop power,
> and then cross controlled (slipped) the airplane until the onset of
> a stall. In my series 5, there is a tremendous amount of buffeting
> of the turtledeck, well before the actual break. Any little bit of
> relaxation of controls IMMEDIATELY brings it back into flying shape.
>
> I think the key here is to take the plane up to altitude, and test fly
> your airplane to see how it responds. Talking about it, simply is
> not enough. Anybody on the list can say, do this, or do that. But you
> really will not know how your airplane will respond until you test it.
> My Kitfox, has the most benign stall characteristics of any plane I have
> ever flown. You can chop power, hold the stick back, and using rudder only
> do a falling leaf mushing descent all the way to the ground if you want.
> The slightest power input, or control relaxation immediately brings it
> back.
>
> The only time you can get something really exciting, is to do a full power
> climbing stall. In which case the climb angle is so steep at the break,
> that you get a REALLY radical stall break.
>
> Make yourself a strut mounted angle of attack indicator, it will really
> tell you a lot. I made one with about a 1/2" X 30" carbon fiber tube,
> with a lexan triangle bolted on the front, which attaches to the jury
> strut horizontal tube (via two adel clamps), with a little (6") carbon
> fiber missile on a pivot. The Lexan triangle I marked in 10 degree
> increments, with colored bands. In level flight I get 0 degrees indicated,
> then at 60 mph I get 10 degrees, when I stall the plane it happens at
> about 25 degrees.
>
> From the cockpit, I can see it with just a slight glance out the window.
> I was originally going to build an electronic AOA using an electronic
> rotary position sensor, and drive some led's with an LM3914
> led driver. But then decided why bother since the mechanical (homebrew
> bacon saver) works so well.
>
> I can't say enough about how much an AOA system helps to learn the
> airplane. In my view, the biggest mistake people make flying Kitfox's
> is flying them too fast. This causes no end of problems. Go up high
> and learn to fly the airplane slllooooowwwwwllllllyyyy.
>
> Regards,
> Jeff
>
>
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: Michel Verheughe michel@online.no
> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 22:55:25 +0200
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Side-slip technique
>
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
>
> "jeff.hays@aselia.com" wrote:
> > You can increase sink two ways in a Kitfox slip: Aim the nose down and
> > go fast, or pull back and slow down.
>
> Thanks for your answer, Jeff, but I am still uncertain: If I want to
> side-slip
> and descend faster, do I have to fly faster or slower? At the moment, I
keep
> 65-70 MPH.
> I am not sure I'd like to fly slower because ... stalling while
> uncoordinated,
> isn't it the surest way to get into a spin? I don't ever want to get close
> to
> that ... at low altitude!
>
> Cheers,
> Michel
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Crosswind limits |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "daniel johnson" <kitfox91je@hotmail.com>
I might make a couple of suggestions...take them or leave them, their free.
I've was originally trained to set up into a slip on final to prepare for a
crosswind landing and track the centerline. I probably did that for a year
until i took a class on "flight technique" The fellow teaching the class
had of course more experience in flying than any of us in the room..he told
us techniques from how to fly a jet simulator, which most line pilots will
tell you is a different kind of challenge...to landing a tailwheel airplane
at night. One item i remember making a change to my flying was not to setup
into a slip on final....a crab is more stable....especially if you are
flying an aircraft that is approaching nearer to stall. A slip will vary
the airspeed indication at a critical phase of flight....and if its gusting,
now you are near stall with just a hunch what your actual airspeed is...and
you are set up for a spin entry.
Crabbing helps all of this...just crab to the runway. When the flair comes
just put the upwind wing down and use rudder to face down the centerline.
It sounds like a lot to do when also putting in your flair but its all a
natural instinct to center up...
Like i say...just a suggestion...slipping could be fine further out but be
aware of what's going on as far as speed and crosscontrol.
Happy landings..dan.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
>From: michel <michel@online.no>
>Reply-To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>To: kitfox-list <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Crosswind limits
>Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 10:54:01 +0200
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: michel <michel@online.no>
>
> >===== Original Message From "Harris, Robert" <Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
> >What are the crosswind limits in a Kitfox II or III?
>
>Well, Robert, for me the limit is nil: I don't do crosswind landings ...
>yet.
>Like you, I fear the ground loop. But I intend to learn. That's the nice
>thing
>with a Kitfox, there is always something new to learn.
>Right now I brush up my sideslip technique. I makes sense to keep my upwind
>wing down in crosswind. Crosswind and sideslip seems to me to go hand in
>hand.
>
>Then I'll have to learn to use my flaps, are Gary does.
>As I said, never a boring day with a Kitfox and always a good excuse to go
>out
>flying! ... I love it! :-)
>
>Cheers,
>Michel
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Crosswind limits |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Vic Jacko" <vicwj@earthlink.net>
Dan, I agree with your technique. Is probably a little easier for a new
pilot to slip all the way to landing in a crosswind but after awhile one
grows out of this and will use the technique you just explained. Not only
is it more fun but it is safer! Don't forget the saying "use any technique
to safely land the airplane even if it is on a taxi strip lined up with the
wind. It is a whole lot easier to explain why you did something irregular
standing along your plane on the ground than from a hospital bed. "we do
what we have to do and explain later".
FWIW,
Vic
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "daniel johnson" <kitfox91je@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Crosswind limits
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "daniel johnson"
<kitfox91je@hotmail.com>
>
>
> I might make a couple of suggestions...take them or leave them, their
free.
> I've was originally trained to set up into a slip on final to prepare for
a
> crosswind landing and track the centerline. I probably did that for a
year
> until i took a class on "flight technique" The fellow teaching the class
> had of course more experience in flying than any of us in the room..he
told
> us techniques from how to fly a jet simulator, which most line pilots will
> tell you is a different kind of challenge...to landing a tailwheel
airplane
> at night. One item i remember making a change to my flying was not to
setup
> into a slip on final....a crab is more stable....especially if you are
> flying an aircraft that is approaching nearer to stall. A slip will vary
> the airspeed indication at a critical phase of flight....and if its
gusting,
> now you are near stall with just a hunch what your actual airspeed
is...and
> you are set up for a spin entry.
>
> Crabbing helps all of this...just crab to the runway. When the flair
comes
> just put the upwind wing down and use rudder to face down the centerline.
> It sounds like a lot to do when also putting in your flair but its all a
> natural instinct to center up...
>
> Like i say...just a suggestion...slipping could be fine further out but be
> aware of what's going on as far as speed and crosscontrol.
>
> Happy landings..dan.
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
> >From: michel <michel@online.no>
> >Reply-To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >To: kitfox-list <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> >Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Crosswind limits
> >Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 10:54:01 +0200
> >
> >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: michel <michel@online.no>
> >
> > >===== Original Message From "Harris, Robert" <Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
> > >What are the crosswind limits in a Kitfox II or III?
> >
> >Well, Robert, for me the limit is nil: I don't do crosswind landings ...
> >yet.
> >Like you, I fear the ground loop. But I intend to learn. That's the nice
> >thing
> >with a Kitfox, there is always something new to learn.
> >Right now I brush up my sideslip technique. I makes sense to keep my
upwind
> >wing down in crosswind. Crosswind and sideslip seems to me to go hand in
> >hand.
> >
> >Then I'll have to learn to use my flaps, are Gary does.
> >As I said, never a boring day with a Kitfox and always a good excuse to
go
> >out
> >flying! ... I love it! :-)
> >
> >Cheers,
> >Michel
> >
> >
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Crosswind limits |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert" <Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
Thanks Dan,
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of daniel johnson
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Crosswind limits
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "daniel johnson" <kitfox91je@hotmail.com>
I might make a couple of suggestions...take them or leave them, their free.
I've was originally trained to set up into a slip on final to prepare for a
crosswind landing and track the centerline. I probably did that for a year
until i took a class on "flight technique" The fellow teaching the class
had of course more experience in flying than any of us in the room..he told
us techniques from how to fly a jet simulator, which most line pilots will
tell you is a different kind of challenge...to landing a tailwheel airplane
at night. One item i remember making a change to my flying was not to setup
into a slip on final....a crab is more stable....especially if you are
flying an aircraft that is approaching nearer to stall. A slip will vary
the airspeed indication at a critical phase of flight....and if its gusting,
now you are near stall with just a hunch what your actual airspeed is...and
you are set up for a spin entry.
Crabbing helps all of this...just crab to the runway. When the flair comes
just put the upwind wing down and use rudder to face down the centerline.
It sounds like a lot to do when also putting in your flair but its all a
natural instinct to center up...
Like i say...just a suggestion...slipping could be fine further out but be
aware of what's going on as far as speed and crosscontrol.
Happy landings..dan.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
>From: michel <michel@online.no>
>Reply-To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>To: kitfox-list <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Crosswind limits
>Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 10:54:01 +0200
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: michel <michel@online.no>
>
> >===== Original Message From "Harris, Robert" <Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
> >What are the crosswind limits in a Kitfox II or III?
>
>Well, Robert, for me the limit is nil: I don't do crosswind landings ...
>yet.
>Like you, I fear the ground loop. But I intend to learn. That's the nice
>thing
>with a Kitfox, there is always something new to learn.
>Right now I brush up my sideslip technique. I makes sense to keep my upwind
>wing down in crosswind. Crosswind and sideslip seems to me to go hand in
>hand.
>
>Then I'll have to learn to use my flaps, are Gary does.
>As I said, never a boring day with a Kitfox and always a good excuse to go
>out
>flying! ... I love it! :-)
>
>Cheers,
>Michel
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Crosswind limits |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert" <Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
This sounds great. I'll try it. Thanks for your help.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
kerrjohna@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Crosswind limits
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kerrjohna@comcast.net
keep your speed down
keep the tail down (stick back)
keep the upwind wing tip down until aileron won't hold it there (you are on
two wheels at this point-tail wheel and upwind main. You are in the same
cross-contolled situation as in the slip you used to get to the runway in
the first place. You were slipping in the crosswind weren't you.
keep your heading straight
all are important but speed (slow) makes the other things work.
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert"
<Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
>
> Hey Michel or anybody else,
>
> What are the crosswind limits in a Kitfox II or III? I was flying in
> 15-20MPH cross winds and almost did a ground loop. Now I'm afraid to land
in
> a crosswind situation in fear of a ground loop but there is almost always
a
> crosswind at my field.
> Robert
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michel
> Verheughe
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Setup comparison..mod3/582/gsc
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
>
> daniel johnson wrote:
> > That said...if you have a 582 powered Kitfox 2 or 3 with the GSC
> prop...will
> > you report the following.
>
> Hello Dan. I too have a Kitfox 3 with a 582, GSC prop, about 50 hours
> experience with no previous one, except my training in a Sky Arrow. I
can't
> give you very accurate figures because when I fly I have either a
talkative
> passenger, a bumpy ride or simply ... I am not good at keeping records.
> But, in general, I fly at around 5,600 RPM, which gives me about 80 MPH. I
> have
> measured my GSC pitch to be 14 degrees at 75% of the radius. I don't have
a
> CHT
> and I can't give you a figure there. Only a dual EGT that stays under
1,200
> F.
> Water temps varies from summer to winter, of course, but is seldom over
160
> F,
> except on extended climb on a hot day.
>
> My flaps are limited to max 10 degrees. I never use them because I haven't
> been
> yet on a long flight in smooth air. Each time I fly to another place, it
is
> during mid-day and thermal parcels keep me working the stick all the time.
> Sometimes I take a passenger for a short trip, before sunset, when it is
> smooth
> and comfortable, but then, no time for trimming my pitch with the
flaperons.
> But I have tried it, of course. And yes, it increases the lift. You can
feel
> it
> by the drop down as you remove it. It also pitches the nose down and I see
> how
> I could use it to keep me from a stick pressure on long distance. But it
> hasn't
> happened yet.
>
> Monday, I flew about one hour to the nearby Notodden ENNO airfield with my
> son.
> The sun is still low over Norway but it was enough heat generated to see
me
> going up over 1,000 fpm in the thermals. If I want then to keep level, I
> need
> to reduce the throttle and nose down. But then I see that my mixture gets
> lean
> and the EGT goes up. The ASI goes up and down and it's difficult to get an
> average reading. Sometimes a wing is lifted. That's when the glider pilot
> decide to turn into the "elevator." I tried once but was out of it pretty
> soon.
> Glider pilots know where to pick their "elevators." Where I live, we have
to
> watch for seagull circling. If we see vultures circling ... it's bad news!
> :-)
>
> Cheers,
> Michel
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Navigation (reprised) |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Scott McClintock <scott_mcclintock@dot.state.ak.us>
------Original Message From Michel---
I agree with you, Scott. That's why I don't want to do my chart work on
a GPS
but on real old-fashion paper charts.
Well, I'm wondering when somebody will get around to producing the nav
charts in digital format. I have a terrestrial mapping software and CDs
that are based on USGS topo quads. It gives LAT/LONGs and computes
routes with elevation changes using the digital contours. I use it quite
often and will plot out a rendered, 3D plot of unfamiliar airports or
off airport landing sites from the final approach perspective.
I'm working on using the MS Flight Sim 2004 airport views into my
airport reconstruction presentations. I suppose Bill Gates will want a
special license for this?
I just received my Russian ICAO VFR chart for my trip to Provideniya,
Chukotka, Russia yesterday. I will need to get with my buddy Nikoli to
have him interpret this thing for me. It's printed in Russian! How those
guys get words out of that gibberish I'll never know?
Comparing this chart to our sectionals, the Russians have a long way to
go. Looks like some lonely landscape though, even by Alaska standards.
I can scan a portion of this for anyone who wants to take a peek at it.
Chime in if anybody wants a copy.
I answered your astro-nav question off line. You have the right idea.
Scott in Nome
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Side-slip technique |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
"jeff.hays@aselia.com" wrote:
> Go up high and learn to fly the airplane slllooooowwwwwllllllyyyy.
Ok, Jeff and Lowell, I will do that. Thanks.
Michel
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Crosswind limits |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Vic Jacko wrote:
> Dan, I agree with your technique. Is probably a little easier for a new
> pilot to slip all the way to landing in a crosswind
Now you got me confused, Vic and Dan.
To me, the "novice" way to handle a crosswing is crabbing. It is what comes
first to mind, you compensate your heading for the leeway.
I thought sideslipping was the correct technique but that it needed training. I
thought touching the ground while crabbing was a sure way to put the CoG of a
taildragger off the centerline and an invitation to the ground loop. I thought
landing on the weather side wheel, while slightly banking in the wind and a
slight pressure on the pedal that will prevent you to weathervane in the
crosswind, was the right thing to do.
Now I am not sure what to think.
Cheers,
Michel
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Navigation (reprised) |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Scott McClintock wrote:
> Well, I'm wondering when somebody will get around to producing the nav
> charts in digital format.
Well, before I got interested in a Kitfox, Scott, I did a lot of mapping work
for the X-Plane flight simulator. We used the USGS 30 sec DEM database, the
USGS Landuse database for terrain definition, the NIMA data for roads,
railroads, coastline, etc. and the DAFIF data for airports and navaids. And
guess what, it's all free and available on the internet. That's the great thing
with your US Constitution that says that anything made with the tax-payers
money can be sold to them. So, you can make your own worldwide ditital chart
system as we did for the simulator.
... but I'll still fly with my paper charts, if you don't mind! :-)
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Crosswind limits |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
During the transition phase to my model IV - bubble cowl, I put the little
strip of tape on the windshield to help me line up correctly on the runway.
For me, this was a good idea, because I was transitioning from an C-170B
that had the cowl side parallel to the long axis of the airplane. The
Model IV and all round cowl Kitfoxes enjoy a 20 taper toward the spinner.
I seemed to be lining up in a crab consistently.
The tape is gone now, but a little adhesive residue is still visible and I
guess I still subconsciously use it on approach. I was caboose once with
our flying group as we landed at Jackpot, Nevada on the way back from one of
our Idaho trips and the lead pilot estimated the cross winds at about 8 kts
at 90 left. When on the ground and having to help one another exit our
airplanes without them being blown across the ramp the estimate was revised
to over 20 at least. It was not fun, but all six of us landed safely.
I think I can attribute my landing to the subconscious effort to keep the
"tape lined up on the centerline, using what ever control inputs were
necessary to do that. Two things that comes to mind as I think about that
landing. The first is that not knowing the true strength of the wind
probably saved my landing. Because if I had known the true strength of
the wind, I probably would have been nervous beyond words and begun
reciting the mantra, wing low into the wind, cross control etc. and I am
sure I would have been about 20 feet at least behind the airplane.
The talk after this landing was that given the same conditions we would have
all landed on the transverse taxiway as our landing roll would have been
probably only a few feet.
With my airplanes tendency to float, I think I will let the advanced
method - to crab in and straighten just before touch down to others.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "daniel johnson" <kitfox91je@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Crosswind limits
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "daniel johnson"
<kitfox91je@hotmail.com>
>
>
> I might make a couple of suggestions...take them or leave them, their
free.
> I've was originally trained to set up into a slip on final to prepare for
a
> crosswind landing and track the centerline. I probably did that for a
year
> until i took a class on "flight technique" The fellow teaching the class
> had of course more experience in flying than any of us in the room..he
told
> us techniques from how to fly a jet simulator, which most line pilots will
> tell you is a different kind of challenge...to landing a tailwheel
airplane
> at night. One item i remember making a change to my flying was not to
setup
> into a slip on final....a crab is more stable....especially if you are
> flying an aircraft that is approaching nearer to stall. A slip will vary
> the airspeed indication at a critical phase of flight....and if its
gusting,
> now you are near stall with just a hunch what your actual airspeed
is...and
> you are set up for a spin entry.
>
> Crabbing helps all of this...just crab to the runway. When the flair
comes
> just put the upwind wing down and use rudder to face down the centerline.
> It sounds like a lot to do when also putting in your flair but its all a
> natural instinct to center up...
>
> Like i say...just a suggestion...slipping could be fine further out but be
> aware of what's going on as far as speed and crosscontrol.
>
> Happy landings..dan.
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
> >From: michel <michel@online.no>
> >Reply-To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >To: kitfox-list <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> >Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Crosswind limits
> >Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 10:54:01 +0200
> >
> >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: michel <michel@online.no>
> >
> > >===== Original Message From "Harris, Robert" <Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
> > >What are the crosswind limits in a Kitfox II or III?
> >
> >Well, Robert, for me the limit is nil: I don't do crosswind landings ...
> >yet.
> >Like you, I fear the ground loop. But I intend to learn. That's the nice
> >thing
> >with a Kitfox, there is always something new to learn.
> >Right now I brush up my sideslip technique. I makes sense to keep my
upwind
> >wing down in crosswind. Crosswind and sideslip seems to me to go hand in
> >hand.
> >
> >Then I'll have to learn to use my flaps, are Gary does.
> >As I said, never a boring day with a Kitfox and always a good excuse to
go
> >out
> >flying! ... I love it! :-)
> >
> >Cheers,
> >Michel
> >
> >
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Crosswind limits |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: RiteAngle3@aol.com
In a message dated 4/15/04 2:28:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
lcfitt@inreach.com writes:
I think I will let the advanced
method - to crab in and straighten just before touch down to others.
****
I never thought of the crabbing as an advanced method, I always figured they
never were taught to land in a crosswind correctly :-) My personal opinion
naturally, which doesn't count for much! Unless they own a two control Ercoupe
:-)
Elbie
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Crosswind limits |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "daniel johnson" <kitfox91je@hotmail.com>
Michel...i'll try to stop the confusion. "I think" its the most pro thing
to do to crab the airplane to the flare...why, 1.correct airspeed
indication, 2. not crosscontrolled at low speed and altitide, 3. ever look
at your passenger and see how they react to slipping? BUT>...You MUST
transition to a slip during the flare...like Lowell says..bring the
tape...or in my case i use my pantleg...right down the centerline.
So it would be...crab to the touchdown zone...time to flare...back stick,
flapperon into the wind, opposite rudder to maintain
centerline...touchdown...like i said, it sounds like a lot to do, but really
crabbing to the runway and transitioning to a slip is pretty natural. I'm
not arguing at all it can't be done by slipping it all the way...just a lot
of work slipping all the way down final.
>From: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
>Reply-To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Crosswind limits
>Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 22:52:59 +0200
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
>
>Vic Jacko wrote:
> > Dan, I agree with your technique. Is probably a little easier for a
>new
> > pilot to slip all the way to landing in a crosswind
>
>Now you got me confused, Vic and Dan.
>To me, the "novice" way to handle a crosswing is crabbing. It is what comes
>first to mind, you compensate your heading for the leeway.
>I thought sideslipping was the correct technique but that it needed
>training. I
>thought touching the ground while crabbing was a sure way to put the CoG of
>a
>taildragger off the centerline and an invitation to the ground loop. I
>thought
>landing on the weather side wheel, while slightly banking in the wind and a
>slight pressure on the pedal that will prevent you to weathervane in the
>crosswind, was the right thing to do.
>Now I am not sure what to think.
>
>Cheers,
>Michel
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Crosswind limits |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "daniel johnson" <kitfox91je@hotmail.com>
HI Elbie...i wouldn't say crabbing is a novice technique....for example, we
all crab airliners...just go out to the airport on a really windy
day....watch the noses of the big iron just before touchdown...you'll see
them all trade the crab angle for a slip during flare. Realize i'm not
talking about touching down crabbed....i'm just saying that holding an
airplane in a slip for a mile final is fairly useless (unless you need to
lose the altitude) when you only need it at touchdown. In a crab the flight
controls are really just neutral...in the other case the poor guy is holding
cross controls all the way down...and for what?
>From: RiteAngle3@aol.com
>Reply-To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Crosswind limits
>Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 18:08:14 EDT
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: RiteAngle3@aol.com
>
>In a message dated 4/15/04 2:28:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
>lcfitt@inreach.com writes:
>I think I will let the advanced
>method - to crab in and straighten just before touch down to others.
>****
>I never thought of the crabbing as an advanced method, I always figured
>they
>never were taught to land in a crosswind correctly :-) My personal opinion
>naturally, which doesn't count for much! Unless they own a two control
>Ercoupe
>:-)
>
>Elbie
>DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
Persistent heartburn? Check out Digestive Health & Wellness for information
and advice. http://gerd.msn.com/default.asp
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Crosswind limits |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "daniel johnson" <kitfox91je@hotmail.com>
good point VIC...i was just talking with our airport manager today. He has
mentioned that he's needed to put his cub in across our single runway a few
times...sounds good to me. We even talked about getting a few trees out of
the way to make that a little more reasonable. Another good suggestion is
just to put down at another airport...I had a friend that passed away a few
years ago...he told me when i started flying, "boy, don't ever be ashamed to
take the bus home!" i've not forgotten that :)
>From: "Vic Jacko" <vicwj@earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Crosswind limits
>Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 10:21:09 -0600
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Vic Jacko" <vicwj@earthlink.net>
>
>Dan, I agree with your technique. Is probably a little easier for a new
>pilot to slip all the way to landing in a crosswind but after awhile one
>grows out of this and will use the technique you just explained. Not only
>is it more fun but it is safer! Don't forget the saying "use any technique
>to safely land the airplane even if it is on a taxi strip lined up with the
>wind. It is a whole lot easier to explain why you did something irregular
>standing along your plane on the ground than from a hospital bed. "we do
>what we have to do and explain later".
>
>FWIW,
>
>Vic
>
>do not archive
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "daniel johnson" <kitfox91je@hotmail.com>
>To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Crosswind limits
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "daniel johnson"
><kitfox91je@hotmail.com>
> >
> >
> > I might make a couple of suggestions...take them or leave them, their
>free.
> > I've was originally trained to set up into a slip on final to prepare
>for
>a
> > crosswind landing and track the centerline. I probably did that for a
>year
> > until i took a class on "flight technique" The fellow teaching the
>class
> > had of course more experience in flying than any of us in the room..he
>told
> > us techniques from how to fly a jet simulator, which most line pilots
>will
> > tell you is a different kind of challenge...to landing a tailwheel
>airplane
> > at night. One item i remember making a change to my flying was not to
>setup
> > into a slip on final....a crab is more stable....especially if you are
> > flying an aircraft that is approaching nearer to stall. A slip will
>vary
> > the airspeed indication at a critical phase of flight....and if its
>gusting,
> > now you are near stall with just a hunch what your actual airspeed
>is...and
> > you are set up for a spin entry.
> >
> > Crabbing helps all of this...just crab to the runway. When the flair
>comes
> > just put the upwind wing down and use rudder to face down the
>centerline.
> > It sounds like a lot to do when also putting in your flair but its all a
> > natural instinct to center up...
> >
> > Like i say...just a suggestion...slipping could be fine further out but
>be
> > aware of what's going on as far as speed and crosscontrol.
> >
> > Happy landings..dan.
> > DO NOT ARCHIVE
> >
> > >From: michel <michel@online.no>
> > >Reply-To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> > >To: kitfox-list <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> > >Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Crosswind limits
> > >Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 10:54:01 +0200
> > >
> > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: michel <michel@online.no>
> > >
> > > >===== Original Message From "Harris, Robert"
><Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
> > > >What are the crosswind limits in a Kitfox II or III?
> > >
> > >Well, Robert, for me the limit is nil: I don't do crosswind landings
>...
> > >yet.
> > >Like you, I fear the ground loop. But I intend to learn. That's the
>nice
> > >thing
> > >with a Kitfox, there is always something new to learn.
> > >Right now I brush up my sideslip technique. I makes sense to keep my
>upwind
> > >wing down in crosswind. Crosswind and sideslip seems to me to go hand
>in
> > >hand.
> > >
> > >Then I'll have to learn to use my flaps, are Gary does.
> > >As I said, never a boring day with a Kitfox and always a good excuse to
>go
> > >out
> > >flying! ... I love it! :-)
> > >
> > >Cheers,
> > >Michel
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Setup comparison..mod3/582/gsc |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "daniel johnson" <kitfox91je@hotmail.com>
Thanks for those of you that posted your setup on mk3, 582's. I got mine
out again today...minus the baggage pod. It seems like the pod made just a
little more of a difference in speed than i thought. The plane seems to
cruise easily from 65-85 with no temp problemsat my flight today. I tried
just about every power setting at 3000-4500 feet with no trouble. i just
notice i've set up a little too lean to run high RPM cruise. below about
2000 feet....a quick fix.
>From: michel <michel@online.no>
>Reply-To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>To: kitfox-list <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Setup comparison..mod3/582/gsc
>Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 10:26:09 +0200
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: michel <michel@online.no>
>
> >===== Original Message From "daniel johnson" <kitfox91je@hotmail.com>
>=====
> >My EGT sometimes "tries" to get to 1250 on one clylinder...
>
>... Are you sure it's not my plane you're flying, Dan? :-)
>I get the same thing at about 5,000 RPM, OAT about 5 deg C, and in a slight
>descent.
>
>Cheers,
>Michel
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Leo Rice & Doolittle |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Les Chambers" <l_chambers@ckt.net>
I once asked Leo if he knew an Air Force LTC named Doolittle who was flying
C-130's in Vietnam when I was there in 1968. Leo didn't know this young
Doolittle, but said he once flew Jimmy Doolittle from McClellan over to SFO
in the base C-310. Said he was a little nervous with such a famous
passenger, but Jimmy just said "Good Morning", then took out a newspaper,
read, and never said a word till they shut down at SFO.
Les Chambers
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Crosswind limits |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: RiteAngle3@aol.com
In a message dated 4/15/04 4:44:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
kitfox91je@hotmail.com writes:
HI Elbie...i wouldn't say crabbing is a novice technique....for example, we
all crab airliners...just go out to the airport on a really windy
day....watch the noses of the big iron just before touchdown...you'll see
them all trade the crab angle for a slip during flare. Realize i'm not
talking about touching down crabbed....
****
Sorry I didn't make myself clear on that, I've been flying 121 stuff since
the '60's, DC-3's to 767's. I actually meant the "kicking out the crab" without
the transition to the slip as some are prone to do. To many things on my
mind to be trying to e-mail also ~~ Thats my excuse and I'm sticking to it ~~
That and age :-)
I'm trying to get a parts order off, and hear a new message go read and mind
really isn't there. At least sales have been good enough to need parts, I'm
sold out at present :-)
Elbie
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 23
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| Subject: | Crosswind limits |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clint Bazzill" <clint_bazzill@hotmail.com>
Tell you what. Take your airplane to altitude, do the slowest forward slip that
is possible, if you can make your airplane spin, I will buy your lunch. Clint
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Crosswind limits |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "daniel johnson" <kitfox91je@hotmail.com>
Now me and Elbie are on the same page....man i'd like to hear about flying
that DC3. I bet you've seen most everything if not all of it. dan
Do not archive.
>From: RiteAngle3@aol.com
>Reply-To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Crosswind limits
>Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 00:38:21 EDT
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: RiteAngle3@aol.com
>
>In a message dated 4/15/04 4:44:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
>kitfox91je@hotmail.com writes:
>HI Elbie...i wouldn't say crabbing is a novice technique....for example, we
>all crab airliners...just go out to the airport on a really windy
>day....watch the noses of the big iron just before touchdown...you'll see
>them all trade the crab angle for a slip during flare. Realize i'm not
>talking about touching down crabbed....
>****
>Sorry I didn't make myself clear on that, I've been flying 121 stuff since
>the '60's, DC-3's to 767's. I actually meant the "kicking out the crab"
>without
>the transition to the slip as some are prone to do. To many things on my
>mind to be trying to e-mail also ~~ Thats my excuse and I'm sticking to it
>~~
>That and age :-)
>I'm trying to get a parts order off, and hear a new message go read and
>mind
>really isn't there. At least sales have been good enough to need parts,
>I'm
>sold out at present :-)
>Elbie
>
>DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
Lose those love handles! MSN Fitness shows you two moves to slim your waist.
http://fitness.msn.com/articles/feeds/article.aspx?dept=exercise&article=et_pv_030104_lovehandles
Message 25
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| Subject: | Gap Sealing Tape |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "hausding, sid" <sidh@charter.net>
Scott and List,
I just got off the phone with Bell and after we had discussed the types and
ordering info for one roll, I decided to tell him just what it was that I
would be using the tape for.............surprise. He actually suggested a
different type and one that isn't visible (yet) on the website. It is
stickier, UV resistant, more pliant, and has several other qualities that
aren't apparent that make it "the" choice to use for our purposes.
He doesn't show the possibility, but does sell one roll at a time, but as
you can imagine the price is slightly higher if only getting one roll. But
not excessive by any means.........so, after all that, he is sending me a
sample to try and I suggested he contact local homebuilders to conduct his
own survey and then possibly marketing and selling it for similiar
applications and making it known more widely so its easier to find online
Anyway, I will have some of this in several days to try and will give Darrel
(Kitfox) some and I will use it too. I should have some extra if someone
else cares to wait and then try it themselves.
Standby.............oh yeah, this tape comes in clear, but also in several
basic colors - perfect for putting on trim and over graphics without
showing!
Sid (Avid)
Alpena, Mi
------------------------------------
These guys have a good selection of any kind of tape you could imagine.
Any color and clear in a variety of widths of course.
http://belldiversified.com/tapes.html
Scott in Nome
Message 26
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| Subject: | Crosswind limits |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "daniel johnson" <kitfox91je@hotmail.com>
You have to figure that the fellow that asked the question isn't likely
going to limit his flying lifetime to one airframe or type...and everyone
knows that crosscontrolling to the stall is a perfect recipe for a spin
entry....i've done hundreds of spins intentionally and i've set back and
watched on checkrides as the student put us right in one he/she didn't
recognize. I just think its a good idea to have all the info about the
situation..although yep its easily managed with controlling AOA..pitch and
power..however you like to think of it.
Like i said early on...its not that it can't be done and done safely to slip
all the way down final. I'm just saying that it is a fact that in a
crab...the controls are neutral compared to the crosscontrol you have to
hold in the slip. It is a fact that depending on pitot location your
airspeed indication can become less reliable. And in my opinion the slip
creates noise and sensation that isn't always real exciting for the
unknowing passenger IF you don't take a minute to let them know whats
happening. that said, i still slip often to come down to our runway after
overflying a nearby airport.
Anyway...i'm sure he'll get comfortable with either or both methods...just
figure its good to throw out the thought that you'd better have a good idea
whats going on low, slow and crosscontrolled. I think its a really bad idea
to assume your airplane wont spin and operate accordingly, even if you've
tried at altitude. common sense stuff when we're talking about operating a
1000 lb airplane in 20 ro 25 mph gusts.
>From: "Clint Bazzill" <clint_bazzill@hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Crosswind limits
>Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 05:04:41 +0000
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clint Bazzill"
><clint_bazzill@hotmail.com>
>
>
>Tell you what. Take your airplane to altitude, do the slowest forward slip
>that is possible, if you can make your airplane spin, I will buy your
>lunch. Clint
>
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Gap Sealing Tape |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper" <spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
Sign me up Sid! I would very much like to have the opportunity to try some
of the product on my Avid Mark IV.
Steve Cooper
----- Original Message -----
From: "hausding, sid" <sidh@charter.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Gap Sealing Tape
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "hausding, sid" <sidh@charter.net>
>
> Scott and List,
> I just got off the phone with Bell and after we had discussed the types
and
> ordering info for one roll, I decided to tell him just what it was that I
> would be using the tape for.............surprise. He actually suggested a
> different type and one that isn't visible (yet) on the website. It is
> stickier, UV resistant, more pliant, and has several other qualities that
> aren't apparent that make it "the" choice to use for our purposes.
> He doesn't show the possibility, but does sell one roll at a time, but as
> you can imagine the price is slightly higher if only getting one roll.
But
> not excessive by any means.........so, after all that, he is sending me a
> sample to try and I suggested he contact local homebuilders to conduct his
> own survey and then possibly marketing and selling it for similiar
> applications and making it known more widely so its easier to find online
> Anyway, I will have some of this in several days to try and will give
Darrel
> (Kitfox) some and I will use it too. I should have some extra if someone
> else cares to wait and then try it themselves.
> Standby.............oh yeah, this tape comes in clear, but also in several
> basic colors - perfect for putting on trim and over graphics without
> showing!
>
> Sid (Avid)
> Alpena, Mi
> ------------------------------------
>
> These guys have a good selection of any kind of tape you could imagine.
> Any color and clear in a variety of widths of course.
> http://belldiversified.com/tapes.html
> Scott in Nome
>
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Crosswind limits |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: RiteAngle3@aol.com
In a message dated 4/15/04 10:08:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
kitfox91je@hotmail.com writes:
I bet you've seen most everything if not all of it
***
Only problem is have forgotten all except the good stories :-) and a few
times I was to scared to ever forget!
CFI ASMEL A&I ~sinxce '62 & I just got my Ultralight Flight Instructor
Exemption so I can instruct in 2 place powered fixed wing ultralights, along with
everything else, if you don't use it you lose it!
Elbie
Do Not Archive
Message 29
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| Subject: | Gap Sealing Tape |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall" <donpearsall@comcast.net>
I apologize if you have already discussed this tape supply, but have you
looked at this tape supply for gap sealing tape?
http://www.wingsandwheels.com/page29.htm
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