Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:07 AM - Gap Sealing Tape (FlyCyOZ@aol.com)
2. 01:13 AM - Re: Crabbing vs Slipping approaches (Jeff Thomas)
3. 03:30 AM - Re: Crosswind limits (michel)
4. 03:47 AM - Re: Crosswind limits (Bruce Lina)
5. 05:41 AM - Weight and balance (Gill Levesque)
6. 05:50 AM - Weight of static system (Gill Levesque)
7. 05:59 AM - Gap Sealing Tape (hausding, sid)
8. 06:02 AM - Gap Sealing Tape (hausding, sid)
9. 06:51 AM - Slip incident (Gary Algate)
10. 07:38 AM - Re: Weight and balance (kerrjohna@comcast.net)
11. 07:44 AM - Re: Gap Sealing Tape (kerrjohna@comcast.net)
12. 08:00 AM - Re: Slip incident (kerrjohna@comcast.net)
13. 08:03 AM - Re: Crabbing vs Slipping approaches (Lowell Fitt)
14. 08:21 AM - Re: Weight and balance (Lowell Fitt)
15. 08:36 AM - Re: Crabbing vs Slipping approaches (Bruce Harrington)
16. 08:42 AM - Re: Crabbing vs Slipping approaches (daniel johnson)
17. 08:51 AM - Re: Crabbing vs Slipping approaches yesterday (Aerobatics@aol.com)
18. 08:52 AM - Re: Crabbing vs Slipping approaches (daniel johnson)
19. 08:57 AM - Important Guys, Please Read (Steve Cooper)
20. 09:00 AM - Re: Crabbing vs Slipping approaches (Aerobatics@aol.com)
21. 09:18 AM - Re: Important Guys, Please Read (RiteAngle3@aol.com)
22. 09:30 AM - Re: Weight and balance (JMCBEAN)
23. 09:31 AM - Re: Leo Rice & Doolittle (Scott McClintock)
24. 10:03 AM - Gap Sealing Tape (hausding, sid)
25. 10:31 AM - Re: Crabbing vs Slipping approaches (Paul)
26. 12:10 PM - Re: Important Guys, Please Read (daniel johnson)
27. 12:41 PM - Re: Important Guys, Please Read (Harris, Robert)
28. 02:05 PM - Re: Weight and balance (Dcecil3@aol.com)
29. 05:39 PM - Re: Crosswind limits (Tc9008@aol.com)
30. 09:21 PM - Re: Crosswind limits (RiteAngle3@aol.com)
31. 10:58 PM - Re: Crosswind limits (jimshumaker)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Gap Sealing Tape |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: FlyCyOZ@aol.com
In a message dated 16/04/2004 3:44:00 PM AUS Eastern Standard Time,
spdrflyr@earthlink.net writes:
> Sign me up Sid! I would very much like to have the opportunity to try some
> of the product on my Avid Mark IV.
>
> Steve Cooper
>
Could I buy a roll of this tape to bring back here to OZ (Australia). Will
be in The States in early to mid-May.
cy
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Crabbing vs Slipping approaches |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jeff Thomas" <jeffthomas@ntlworld.com>
I have been following the recent discussion on crabbing versus slipping
approaches with interest and would like to offer my thoughts / queries on
the subject.
I understand airliners make crabbing approaches.... but understood that
because the flaps that are wound out before landing on modern air liners
extend back so far and so low on some (many?) there is a risk they could
contact the runway on the "low wing" of a slipping approach... or is that
just nonsense I have picked up from somewhere?
There is a lot of correct talk about slipping at minimum speed (with the
associated inaccurate airspeed reading) being the very conditions to
initiate a spin. But who is slipping at minimum speed into a strong (and
therefore probably blustery) crosswind? When I land with a slip I also lower
the nose significantly to ensure adequate airspeed (even allowing for a miss
reading airspeed indicator).
Landing a tricycle undercarriage aircraft in a crab (where the centre of
gravity is in front of the main wheels) means that if you actually touch
down in a crabbed position the C of G will automatically try to straighten
the aircraft up. With a tail dragger (and C of G behind the main wheels)
touching down crabwise is risky and will tend to be punished by the C of G
trying to aggravate the situation into a ground loop.
When making a crabbing approach the work load gets quite high at the point
of landing. During the flair the rudder has to be used to straighten the
aircraft at the same time as opposite aileron is applied to prevent the into
wind wing raising. Do it too early (or if the aircraft floats on) and you
risk drifting off the side of the runway, do it too late and we are back to
inviting the ground loop again.... al while actually landing the aircraft.
Approaching in a slip does of course means applying crossed controls (so
what, this is a recognised technique we learn about isn't it?) However a
slip can be set up nice and early on final approach and stays pretty much
the same right down to the flare and landing with the lower into wind wheel
touching down first.
I tend to find that either method works fine when landing a tricycle
undercarriage aircraft and in this type of plane the crabbing technique is
easier to learn / more natural for a novice pilot. On balance though and
with practice, I probably think the slipping approach offers greater
advantages when landing a tail dragger?
I am now going to duck and wait to be shot down by those who know better!
Regards
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: "daniel johnson" <kitfox91je@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Crosswind limits
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "daniel johnson"
<kitfox91je@hotmail.com>
>
> HI Elbie...i wouldn't say crabbing is a novice technique....for example,
we
> all crab airliners...just go out to the airport on a really windy
> day....watch the noses of the big iron just before touchdown...you'll see
> them all trade the crab angle for a slip during flare. Realize i'm not
> talking about touching down crabbed....i'm just saying that holding an
> airplane in a slip for a mile final is fairly useless (unless you need to
> lose the altitude) when you only need it at touchdown. In a crab the
flight
> controls are really just neutral...in the other case the poor guy is
holding
> cross controls all the way down...and for what?
Message 3
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| Subject: | Crosswind limits |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: michel <michel@online.no>
Thank you, to all of you who answered this crabbing vs. sideslip thread. It
was very interesting and, indeed, the answer is: in crosswind, crab first,
then sideslip before touching down.
Indeed, slow flying at safe altitude is also the best way to learn the plane
safely. And yes, passengers don't like long sideslips.
This list is definitively the best Kitfox flying school and I am so grateful
for all your help. Thanks again for taking the time to answer all my
questions.
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Crosswind limits |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Lina" <airlina@usadatanet.net>
Speaking of spins, has anyone ever spun their kitfox? I know Skystar has not
conducted a spin test program and thus prohibits spins but I have one of the
old promotional videos showing Jimmy Franklin doing some spins in a
Speedster.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Clint Bazzill" <clint_bazzill@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Crosswind limits
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clint Bazzill"
<clint_bazzill@hotmail.com>
>
>
> Tell you what. Take your airplane to altitude, do the slowest forward slip
that is possible, if you can make your airplane spin, I will buy your lunch.
Clint
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Weight and balance |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Gill Levesque <canpilot03@yahoo.ca>
Hey ! Y'all
When setting the airframe "level" for weight and balance check, the manual says
to have the airplane in a level flight attitude!! What do I level? Bottom of
wing? Bottom longeron? ect!!! I did mine with the wing bottom level and came
out very light on the tail wheel weight! Any suggestions!!!
Gil Levesque
Model 4
582
C-IGVL
Still alive and flyin!!!!
Gil
---------------------------------
Message 6
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| Subject: | Weight of static system |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Gill Levesque <canpilot03@yahoo.ca>
Hi Y'all again!!!
I recently installed a static system as recomended ( one on each side forward
of the stab) . In my haste, I forgot to weigh the ports ,plastic tee and fittings
and tubing! I also added 2 inspection holes and covers! Do any of you have
the approx weight so that I can figure the change to my W&B!! Thanks all!!!
Gil Levesque
Model 4 1050
C-IGVL
Still alive and flyin!!!!
Gil
---------------------------------
Message 7
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| Subject: | Gap Sealing Tape |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "hausding, sid" <sidh@charter.net>
I would think we will have the sample and some views by then. Darrel has
actually used the SkiSaver tape and can make a good comparison, if he ever
gets back to Michigan from Spokane...........will let the list know as soon
as we get it and "pull it apart" for inspection. Cost was only about $5.00
per roll, plus a small shipping charge. Can't imagine it being too
expensive to ship some to the "land down under" if we miss your return date.
...heck, grab several rolls and become the OZ distributor!
Sid
-----------------------
Could I buy a roll of this tape to bring back here to OZ (Australia). Will
be in The States in early to mid-May.
cy
Message 8
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| Subject: | Gap Sealing Tape |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "hausding, sid" <sidh@charter.net>
Yes we had Don, but Thanks for reminding us of this website. The thought
here was the W and W stuff was pretty expensive and only comes in white
(TISSU) or the tan colors and nobody has tried painting over the stuff yet.
Probably being teflon it won't hold a coating of any kind. This stuff from
Bell is clear and or comes in some colors which he will tell us about soon..
........I'll let the list know immediately as soon as I do. The gentleman
s name from Bell was Cory for those that may want to do their own R&D. We
may want to keep this address until this new idea pans out and proves itself
Hmmmmnnn. :-)
Sid
----------------------
I apologize if you have already discussed this tape supply, but have you
looked at this tape supply for gap sealing tape?
http://www.wingsandwheels.com/page29.htm
Message 9
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Gary Algate" <algate@attglobal.net>
I remember learning side slips in my Challenger. On one occasion I slipped
so severely that the 0.060" Lexan popped in and smacked me in the face. That
certainly gets your attention when your about 10 foot over the trees on
final descent into a small lake.
I remember when I first purchased my old Challenger I had problems with the
fuel circuit and I was just going solo over a small grass field at about
2,000ft - I had idled back and the engine stopped, I was so far behind the
plane that I had lost about 500ft before I realised what had happened.
Everywhere around was pretty well treed so I decided that little field right
under me was where I wanted to be.
I side slipped so savagely that the 0.060" Lexan side window popped in and
smacked me hard in the face. I must have come down at about 2500 ft/min as I
started the slip at the approach to the field at about 1500 ft and still
managed to land safely and stop. My instructor congratulated me but
commented that I was probably a bit premature in practicing dead stick side
slips so early in my flight training.
I fixed the fuel problem and always keep that technique up my sleeve - just
in case.
I did the same thing when I first landed at a "real" airport and was
concentrating so hard on the approach and the radio work that I basically
forget to lose altitude. When I finally lined up on final that 5000ft strip
looked like a postage stamp. I was too embarrassed to ask for a go around so
I just slipped right down to the numbers - I got away with that one too as
the controllers commented favourably on me practicing my great slipping
technique at their door step....
Question - I was under the impression that indicated air speed in a slip was
representative of the actual air speed over the wing - therefore maintaining
1.3 stall at a reasonable AOA would prevent a stall. Any takers on this
.............
Gary Algate
Lite2/582
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Weight and balance |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kerrjohna@comcast.net
I believe the datum for level is the lower longeron or lower door frame. This will
give the bottom of the wing (where do you measure level on that curvilinear
surface) a slightly positive angle of incidence.
The resulting lowering of the tail would put more weight on the tailwheel with
a shift in the numbers.
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Gill Levesque <canpilot03@yahoo.ca>
>
> Hey ! Y'all
> When setting the airframe "level" for weight and balance check, the manual says
> to have the airplane in a level flight attitude!! What do I level? Bottom of
> wing? Bottom longeron? ect!!! I did mine with the wing bottom level and came
> out very light on the tail wheel weight! Any suggestions!!!
> Gil Levesque
> Model 4
> 582
> C-IGVL
>
>
>
> Still alive and flyin!!!!
>
> Gil
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Gap Sealing Tape |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kerrjohna@comcast.net
how can you improve on $.39 worth of clear shelf liner that is still in place and
showing no uv damage after 8 years?
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "hausding, sid" <sidh@charter.net>
>
>
> Yes we had Don, but Thanks for reminding us of this website. The thought
> here was the W and W stuff was pretty expensive and only comes in white
> (TISSU) or the tan colors and nobody has tried painting over the stuff yet.
> Probably being teflon it won't hold a coating of any kind. This stuff from
> Bell is clear and or comes in some colors which he will tell us about soon..
> ........I'll let the list know immediately as soon as I do. The gentleman
> s name from Bell was Cory for those that may want to do their own R&D. We
> may want to keep this address until this new idea pans out and proves itself
> Hmmmmnnn. :-)
>
> Sid
> ----------------------
>
> I apologize if you have already discussed this tape supply, but have you
> looked at this tape supply for gap sealing tape?
>
> http://www.wingsandwheels.com/page29.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Slip incident |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kerrjohna@comcast.net
slip versus crab is one of the perennial discussions, right up there with the danger
of the downwind turn??
several comments on this thread have mixed their discussion without reference or
deference to forward slips vs. side slips. while similar in nature and control
input they are significantly different visually and aurally from the cockpit.
now I don't remember which is which but it has to do with the relationship
of the centerline of the aircraft and the course over the ground.
(Forward slip keeps the centerline of the aircraft and the centerline of the runway
parallel? and is used to maintain that relationship) If that is correct then
the sideslip has the centerline of the aircraft at an angle to ground track
and is used to lose altitude.
on passenger comfort...losing altitude in a slip IS disconcerting, but I have found
that the a crabbed approach is just a disconcerting because they percieve
that the landing will be "in the weeds". My experience that a forward slip in
a crosswind is not even recognized by passengers.
most SEL pilots don't have to worry about dragging a wingtip, or engine pod, or
picking up FOD when landing wing low.
these discussion are what enlivens our group. thanks to you all.
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Gary Algate" <algate@attglobal.net>
>
> I remember learning side slips in my Challenger. On one occasion I slipped
> so severely that the 0.060" Lexan popped in and smacked me in the face. That
> certainly gets your attention when your about 10 foot over the trees on
> final descent into a small lake.
>
> I remember when I first purchased my old Challenger I had problems with the
> fuel circuit and I was just going solo over a small grass field at about
> 2,000ft - I had idled back and the engine stopped, I was so far behind the
> plane that I had lost about 500ft before I realised what had happened.
> Everywhere around was pretty well treed so I decided that little field right
> under me was where I wanted to be.
>
> I side slipped so savagely that the 0.060" Lexan side window popped in and
> smacked me hard in the face. I must have come down at about 2500 ft/min as I
> started the slip at the approach to the field at about 1500 ft and still
> managed to land safely and stop. My instructor congratulated me but
> commented that I was probably a bit premature in practicing dead stick side
> slips so early in my flight training.
>
> I fixed the fuel problem and always keep that technique up my sleeve - just
> in case.
>
> I did the same thing when I first landed at a "real" airport and was
> concentrating so hard on the approach and the radio work that I basically
> forget to lose altitude. When I finally lined up on final that 5000ft strip
> looked like a postage stamp. I was too embarrassed to ask for a go around so
> I just slipped right down to the numbers - I got away with that one too as
> the controllers commented favourably on me practicing my great slipping
> technique at their door step....
>
> Question - I was under the impression that indicated air speed in a slip was
> representative of the actual air speed over the wing - therefore maintaining
> 1.3 stall at a reasonable AOA would prevent a stall. Any takers on this
> .............
>
>
> Gary Algate
> Lite2/582
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Crabbing vs Slipping approaches |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
My approach to this is very much like Jeff's. To crab in because a B-747
does doesn't translate to my little tail dragger Kitfox. I have been led
to believe that a 747 crabs to touch down because of the flap issue and also
the outboard engine doesn't do well scraping the pavement.
I side slip quite steeply - rudder pedal to the floor - to lose altitude,
but if I found myself in that situation to manage a cross wind landing, it
would be either find another airport and take the bus, as was mentioned as a
prudent choice, or land unconventionally on a taxiway.
After flying with our group a whole bunch of hours, It is surprising how
often our little airplanes are flown one wing low in cruise. Not
intentionally, mind you, but the Kitfox requires a bit of attention if not
rigged perfectly, and I believe is the reason that one tank tends to drain
faster than the other, as has been reported in the past on the list. I also
fly cross controlled from time to time to keep my lift strut mounted camera
on a subject for short periods - not a dangerous practice IMO.
A thought on the inaccuracy of the airspeed in a slip. The geometry of the
thing suggests to me that any inaccuracy would be on the positive side as to
actual airspeed as the ASI would read low to zero and the prudent pilot
would control to increase the reading. There was also a note on the list
recently that indicated that actual testing showed that airspeed remained
fairly accurate up to a 25 or so angle of incidence (please correct me if I
am wrong in this).
Regarding passengers. I always warn about the side slip to descend, but in
my airplane, I feel there would be more consternation in the novice
passenger seeing the airplane pointing at the trees beside the runway on
approach and seemingly flying sideways, than seeing the nose pointing at the
centerline and tracking in that direction with one wing slightly low - a
phenomenon not readily apparent in the Kitfox given the lack of a horizontal
reference point in the cockpit - exception, the forward Spar carry through -
high and virtually out of sight..
I guess if I found myself on a very long final, I would initially approach
with a crab, but my transition to a forward slip would be significantly
before the flare to stabilize the airplane and avoid the last minute
(second) work load as Jeff mentions it. I just don't see the problem using
the forward slip for landing. I set up for it, and it has worked
uneventfully for almost 600 hours.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Thomas" <jeffthomas@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Crabbing vs Slipping approaches
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jeff Thomas" <jeffthomas@ntlworld.com>
>
> I have been following the recent discussion on crabbing versus slipping
> approaches with interest and would like to offer my thoughts / queries on
> the subject.
>
> I understand airliners make crabbing approaches.... but understood that
> because the flaps that are wound out before landing on modern air liners
> extend back so far and so low on some (many?) there is a risk they could
> contact the runway on the "low wing" of a slipping approach... or is that
> just nonsense I have picked up from somewhere?
>
> There is a lot of correct talk about slipping at minimum speed (with the
> associated inaccurate airspeed reading) being the very conditions to
> initiate a spin. But who is slipping at minimum speed into a strong (and
> therefore probably blustery) crosswind? When I land with a slip I also
lower
> the nose significantly to ensure adequate airspeed (even allowing for a
miss
> reading airspeed indicator).
>
> Landing a tricycle undercarriage aircraft in a crab (where the centre of
> gravity is in front of the main wheels) means that if you actually touch
> down in a crabbed position the C of G will automatically try to straighten
> the aircraft up. With a tail dragger (and C of G behind the main wheels)
> touching down crabwise is risky and will tend to be punished by the C of G
> trying to aggravate the situation into a ground loop.
>
> When making a crabbing approach the work load gets quite high at the point
> of landing. During the flair the rudder has to be used to straighten the
> aircraft at the same time as opposite aileron is applied to prevent the
into
> wind wing raising. Do it too early (or if the aircraft floats on) and you
> risk drifting off the side of the runway, do it too late and we are back
to
> inviting the ground loop again.... al while actually landing the aircraft.
>
> Approaching in a slip does of course means applying crossed controls (so
> what, this is a recognised technique we learn about isn't it?) However a
> slip can be set up nice and early on final approach and stays pretty much
> the same right down to the flare and landing with the lower into wind
wheel
> touching down first.
>
> I tend to find that either method works fine when landing a tricycle
> undercarriage aircraft and in this type of plane the crabbing technique is
> easier to learn / more natural for a novice pilot. On balance though and
> with practice, I probably think the slipping approach offers greater
> advantages when landing a tail dragger?
>
> I am now going to duck and wait to be shot down by those who know better!
>
> Regards
>
> Jeff
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Weight and balance |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
Gil, I believe what you want level is the underside of the cabin floor
(page FE1 my Model IV manual)
I used a straight piece of wood with equal length stand-offs so it would
clear the landing gear and used the forward and aft cross tubes under the
cabin floor as reference points.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gill Levesque" <canpilot03@yahoo.ca>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Weight and balance
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Gill Levesque <canpilot03@yahoo.ca>
>
> Hey ! Y'all
> When setting the airframe "level" for weight and balance check, the
manual says to have the airplane in a level flight attitude!! What do I
level? Bottom of wing? Bottom longeron? ect!!! I did mine with the wing
bottom level and came out very light on the tail wheel weight! Any
suggestions!!!
> Gil Levesque
> Model 4
> 582
> C-IGVL
>
>
> Still alive and flyin!!!!
>
> Gil
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Crabbing vs Slipping approaches |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Harrington" <aerowood@mcsi.net>
Also worked for me over 800 hours and many landings.
My slips to landing only occur on short final, not over the whole final
approach!
bh
ex-N194KF, 582ed IV-1200, 800+ hrs
> I just don't see the problem using
> the forward slip for landing. I set up for it, and it has worked
> uneventfully for almost 600 hours.
>
> Lowell
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Crabbing vs Slipping approaches |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "daniel johnson" <kitfox91je@hotmail.com>
Jeff...i'd say that no-one is wrong here. Both methods can be used for
sure. I just never really found it difficult to kick out the crab and put a
wing down as the flare comes...but to each his own. A lot of folks really
seem not to enjoy that at all!
I have to say though the part about airliners...we just crab to the
runway..kick out the crab and put in the slip during flair. I'm assuming
this is universal...i'm not sure if some airliners max crosswind is based on
wingtip/or engine clearance...but for the Regional Jet i fly i pretty well
run out of aileron before i'd get a wingstrike. I figure there are more
unforgiving airplanes out there as far as that goes though.
I guess it just comes down to what feels right to the man in the left seat
here.
Dan.
Do not archive
>From: "Jeff Thomas" <jeffthomas@ntlworld.com>
>Reply-To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Crabbing vs Slipping approaches
>Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:13:33 +0100
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jeff Thomas" <jeffthomas@ntlworld.com>
>
>I have been following the recent discussion on crabbing versus slipping
>approaches with interest and would like to offer my thoughts / queries on
>the subject.
>
>I understand airliners make crabbing approaches.... but understood that
>because the flaps that are wound out before landing on modern air liners
>extend back so far and so low on some (many?) there is a risk they could
>contact the runway on the "low wing" of a slipping approach... or is that
>just nonsense I have picked up from somewhere?
>
>There is a lot of correct talk about slipping at minimum speed (with the
>associated inaccurate airspeed reading) being the very conditions to
>initiate a spin. But who is slipping at minimum speed into a strong (and
>therefore probably blustery) crosswind? When I land with a slip I also
>lower
>the nose significantly to ensure adequate airspeed (even allowing for a
>miss
>reading airspeed indicator).
>
>Landing a tricycle undercarriage aircraft in a crab (where the centre of
>gravity is in front of the main wheels) means that if you actually touch
>down in a crabbed position the C of G will automatically try to straighten
>the aircraft up. With a tail dragger (and C of G behind the main wheels)
>touching down crabwise is risky and will tend to be punished by the C of G
>trying to aggravate the situation into a ground loop.
>
>When making a crabbing approach the work load gets quite high at the point
>of landing. During the flair the rudder has to be used to straighten the
>aircraft at the same time as opposite aileron is applied to prevent the
>into
>wind wing raising. Do it too early (or if the aircraft floats on) and you
>risk drifting off the side of the runway, do it too late and we are back to
>inviting the ground loop again.... al while actually landing the aircraft.
>
>Approaching in a slip does of course means applying crossed controls (so
>what, this is a recognised technique we learn about isn't it?) However a
>slip can be set up nice and early on final approach and stays pretty much
>the same right down to the flare and landing with the lower into wind wheel
>touching down first.
>
>I tend to find that either method works fine when landing a tricycle
>undercarriage aircraft and in this type of plane the crabbing technique is
>easier to learn / more natural for a novice pilot. On balance though and
>with practice, I probably think the slipping approach offers greater
>advantages when landing a tail dragger?
>
>I am now going to duck and wait to be shot down by those who know better!
>
>Regards
>
>Jeff
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "daniel johnson" <kitfox91je@hotmail.com>
>To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Crosswind limits
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "daniel johnson"
><kitfox91je@hotmail.com>
> >
> > HI Elbie...i wouldn't say crabbing is a novice technique....for example,
>we
> > all crab airliners...just go out to the airport on a really windy
> > day....watch the noses of the big iron just before touchdown...you'll
>see
> > them all trade the crab angle for a slip during flare. Realize i'm not
> > talking about touching down crabbed....i'm just saying that holding an
> > airplane in a slip for a mile final is fairly useless (unless you need
>to
> > lose the altitude) when you only need it at touchdown. In a crab the
>flight
> > controls are really just neutral...in the other case the poor guy is
>holding
> > cross controls all the way down...and for what?
>
>
Watch LIVE baseball games on your computer with MLB.TV, included with MSN
Premium!
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Crabbing vs Slipping approaches yesterday |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com
I was geting checked out in a 172 yesterday and instructor asked for a
landing with one notch of flap ... OK, but I found myself a bit high and fast,
so I
slipped a bit to fix and made a great landing (lucky) ....... just like
in my KF wich I ammuch more familiar with almost 250 hours the past 2 years.
Adding flap poses problem in that if you put in to much, removing some flap
on final is not so cool..... adjusting slip is so much easier ... at to me.
Like other postings, I agree, there is no right or wrong, what is more
comfortable.
My strip is about 800 feet and at first I felt it was impossible to use.
Now, its fun.
Took a while!
This is so much fun..... :-)
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Crabbing vs Slipping approaches |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "daniel johnson" <kitfox91je@hotmail.com>
Just want to re-iterate..i'm not taling about crabbing to touchdown...i'm
talking about crabbing to flare...then transitioning to a slip. I don't want
someone thinking its a good idea to touchdown crabbed. Again i don't
disagree with Lowell, Jeffs or anyone elses method..i just do a crab to a
slip myself...airliner or tailwheel..works fine in both...and i've not flown
any 747's and wont for a real long time i bet...so you're guess is as good
as mine there.
dan
do not archive.
>From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
>Reply-To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Crabbing vs Slipping approaches
>Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 08:01:45 -0700
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
>
>My approach to this is very much like Jeff's. To crab in because a B-747
>does doesn't translate to my little tail dragger Kitfox. I have been led
>to believe that a 747 crabs to touch down because of the flap issue and
>also
>the outboard engine doesn't do well scraping the pavement.
>
>I side slip quite steeply - rudder pedal to the floor - to lose altitude,
>but if I found myself in that situation to manage a cross wind landing, it
>would be either find another airport and take the bus, as was mentioned as
>a
>prudent choice, or land unconventionally on a taxiway.
>
>After flying with our group a whole bunch of hours, It is surprising how
>often our little airplanes are flown one wing low in cruise. Not
>intentionally, mind you, but the Kitfox requires a bit of attention if not
>rigged perfectly, and I believe is the reason that one tank tends to drain
>faster than the other, as has been reported in the past on the list. I
>also
>fly cross controlled from time to time to keep my lift strut mounted camera
>on a subject for short periods - not a dangerous practice IMO.
>
>A thought on the inaccuracy of the airspeed in a slip. The geometry of the
>thing suggests to me that any inaccuracy would be on the positive side as
>to
>actual airspeed as the ASI would read low to zero and the prudent pilot
>would control to increase the reading. There was also a note on the list
>recently that indicated that actual testing showed that airspeed remained
>fairly accurate up to a 25 or so angle of incidence (please correct me if I
>am wrong in this).
>
>Regarding passengers. I always warn about the side slip to descend, but in
>my airplane, I feel there would be more consternation in the novice
>passenger seeing the airplane pointing at the trees beside the runway on
>approach and seemingly flying sideways, than seeing the nose pointing at
>the
>centerline and tracking in that direction with one wing slightly low - a
>phenomenon not readily apparent in the Kitfox given the lack of a
>horizontal
>reference point in the cockpit - exception, the forward Spar carry through
>-
>high and virtually out of sight..
>
>I guess if I found myself on a very long final, I would initially approach
>with a crab, but my transition to a forward slip would be significantly
>before the flare to stabilize the airplane and avoid the last minute
>(second) work load as Jeff mentions it. I just don't see the problem using
>the forward slip for landing. I set up for it, and it has worked
>uneventfully for almost 600 hours.
>
>Lowell
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Jeff Thomas" <jeffthomas@ntlworld.com>
>To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Crabbing vs Slipping approaches
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jeff Thomas"
><jeffthomas@ntlworld.com>
> >
> > I have been following the recent discussion on crabbing versus slipping
> > approaches with interest and would like to offer my thoughts / queries
>on
> > the subject.
> >
> > I understand airliners make crabbing approaches.... but understood that
> > because the flaps that are wound out before landing on modern air liners
> > extend back so far and so low on some (many?) there is a risk they could
> > contact the runway on the "low wing" of a slipping approach... or is
>that
> > just nonsense I have picked up from somewhere?
> >
> > There is a lot of correct talk about slipping at minimum speed (with the
> > associated inaccurate airspeed reading) being the very conditions to
> > initiate a spin. But who is slipping at minimum speed into a strong (and
> > therefore probably blustery) crosswind? When I land with a slip I also
>lower
> > the nose significantly to ensure adequate airspeed (even allowing for a
>miss
> > reading airspeed indicator).
> >
> > Landing a tricycle undercarriage aircraft in a crab (where the centre of
> > gravity is in front of the main wheels) means that if you actually touch
> > down in a crabbed position the C of G will automatically try to
>straighten
> > the aircraft up. With a tail dragger (and C of G behind the main wheels)
> > touching down crabwise is risky and will tend to be punished by the C of
>G
> > trying to aggravate the situation into a ground loop.
> >
> > When making a crabbing approach the work load gets quite high at the
>point
> > of landing. During the flair the rudder has to be used to straighten the
> > aircraft at the same time as opposite aileron is applied to prevent the
>into
> > wind wing raising. Do it too early (or if the aircraft floats on) and
>you
> > risk drifting off the side of the runway, do it too late and we are back
>to
> > inviting the ground loop again.... al while actually landing the
>aircraft.
> >
> > Approaching in a slip does of course means applying crossed controls (so
> > what, this is a recognised technique we learn about isn't it?) However a
> > slip can be set up nice and early on final approach and stays pretty
>much
> > the same right down to the flare and landing with the lower into wind
>wheel
> > touching down first.
> >
> > I tend to find that either method works fine when landing a tricycle
> > undercarriage aircraft and in this type of plane the crabbing technique
>is
> > easier to learn / more natural for a novice pilot. On balance though and
> > with practice, I probably think the slipping approach offers greater
> > advantages when landing a tail dragger?
> >
> > I am now going to duck and wait to be shot down by those who know
>better!
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Jeff
> >
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Important Guys, Please Read |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper" <spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
EAA has a petition on their web site regarding Sport Pilot. It is VERY
important for anyone who wants the new Sport Pilot rule to sign the
petition. Here is the Short-cut to the site. Please Sign so we can get Sport
Pilot out of OMB (Office of Management and Budget)
http://www.eaa.org/govt/petition.asp
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Crabbing vs Slipping approaches |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com
Hmm touch down crabbing?
Boy, I am a bit confused....
If you have a cross wind, the wheels must touch on the runway straight, but
the airplane must fly "slipping" or crabbing to achieve this.... right?
Up-wind wing low and opposite rudder .... works great.... I like to even roll
on
the up wind main wheel if there is a strong enough cross wind to insure my
little KF doesn't get a gust under the light wings :-)
Frankly, its amazing how much crosswind the KF can be flown in ... the
powerfull rudder is the key....
Just on opinion
Dave KF 2
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Important Guys, Please Read |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: RiteAngle3@aol.com
Thanks Steve, signed and sent in.
Elbie
Message 22
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| Subject: | Weight and balance |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "JMCBEAN" <JDMCBEAN@cableone.net>
Gil,
Level the fuse at the cabin floor.
Blue Skies!!
John & Debra McBean
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gill Levesque
Subject: Kitfox-List: Weight and balance
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Gill Levesque <canpilot03@yahoo.ca>
Hey ! Y'all
When setting the airframe "level" for weight and balance check, the manual
says to have the airplane in a level flight attitude!! What do I level?
Bottom of wing? Bottom longeron? ect!!! I did mine with the wing bottom
level and came out very light on the tail wheel weight! Any suggestions!!!
Gil Levesque
Model 4
582
C-IGVL
Still alive and flyin!!!!
Gil
---------------------------------
Message 23
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|
| Subject: | Re: Leo Rice & Doolittle |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Scott McClintock <scott_mcclintock@dot.state.ak.us>
Les,
Did you know that James J. (Jimmy) Doolittle was a Nome "homeboy".
A little before my time, but one famous "Nomeite".
Scott in Nome
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Les Chambers wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Les Chambers" <l_chambers@ckt.net>
>
> I once asked Leo if he knew an Air Force LTC named Doolittle who was flying
> C-130's in Vietnam when I was there in 1968. Leo didn't know this young
> Doolittle, but said he once flew Jimmy Doolittle from McClellan over to SFO
> in the base C-310. Said he was a little nervous with such a famous
> passenger, but Jimmy just said "Good Morning", then took out a newspaper,
> read, and never said a word till they shut down at SFO.
>
> Les Chambers
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Gap Sealing Tape |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "hausding, sid" <sidh@charter.net>
Doesn't sound like we can! :-) Name the store and if possible the
product........will check that out too! I haven't a clue as to what to look
for and our local Wally World doesn't carry anything like that. Where, how,
and when..........
Sid
---------------------
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kerrjohna@comcast.net
how can you improve on $.39 worth of clear shelf liner that is still in
place and showing no uv damage after 8 years?
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "hausding, sid" <sidh@charter.net>
>
>
> Yes we had Don, but Thanks for reminding us of this website. The thought
> here was the W and W stuff was pretty expensive and only comes in white
> (TISSU) or the tan colors and nobody has tried painting over the stuff yet
> Probably being teflon it won't hold a coating of any kind. This stuff
from
> Bell is clear and or comes in some colors which he will tell us about soon
> ........I'll let the list know immediately as soon as I do. The gentleman
> s name from Bell was Cory for those that may want to do their own R&D. We
> may want to keep this address until this new idea pans out and proves
itself
> Hmmmmnnn. :-)
>
> Sid
> ----------------------
>
> I apologize if you have already discussed this tape supply, but have you
> looked at this tape supply for gap sealing tape?
>
> http://www.wingsandwheels.com/page29.htm
>
>
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Crabbing vs Slipping approaches |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Paul <pwilson@climber.org>
At 8:01 AM -0700 4/16/04, Lowell Fitt wrote:
>----snip----
>A thought on the inaccuracy of the airspeed in a slip. The geometry of the
>thing suggests to me that any inaccuracy would be on the positive side as to
>actual airspeed as the ASI would read low to zero and the prudent pilot
>would control to increase the reading. There was also a note on the list
>recently that indicated that actual testing showed that airspeed remained
>fairly accurate up to a 25 or so angle of incidence (please correct me if I
>am wrong in this).
>----snip----
>Lowell
=====
I recall from my fluids book that the wind tunnel error is less than 1% for a
pitot-static tube up to 20 from the wind direction. If you have a remote static
then this comment is not valid due to ram air or lack of ram air, example, for
a fuge mounted static. That is why pitot-static is the most desirable. A correct
pitot-static probe has multiple static holes (a half dozen + or so) to allow
averaging the static pressure resulting in accurate readings.
Paul
--
Message 26
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| Subject: | Important Guys, Please Read |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "daniel johnson" <kitfox91je@hotmail.com>
thanks for the heads-up...sent mine too..dan johnson
Do not archive
>From: "Steve Cooper" <spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Kitfox-List: Important Guys, Please Read
>Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:02:41 -0700
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper" <spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
>
>EAA has a petition on their web site regarding Sport Pilot. It is VERY
>important for anyone who wants the new Sport Pilot rule to sign the
>petition. Here is the Short-cut to the site. Please Sign so we can get
>Sport
>Pilot out of OMB (Office of Management and Budget)
>
>http://www.eaa.org/govt/petition.asp
>
>
Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to help ensure your PC is protected and
safe. http://specials.msn.com/msn/security.asp
Message 27
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| Subject: | Important Guys, Please Read |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert" <Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
Thanks for the link. I signed it too.
http://www.eaa.org/govt/petition.asp
Robert
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of daniel johnson
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Important Guys, Please Read
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "daniel johnson" <kitfox91je@hotmail.com>
thanks for the heads-up...sent mine too..dan johnson
Do not archive
>From: "Steve Cooper" <spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Kitfox-List: Important Guys, Please Read
>Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:02:41 -0700
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper" <spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
>
>EAA has a petition on their web site regarding Sport Pilot. It is VERY
>important for anyone who wants the new Sport Pilot rule to sign the
>petition. Here is the Short-cut to the site. Please Sign so we can get
>Sport
>Pilot out of OMB (Office of Management and Budget)
>
>http://www.eaa.org/govt/petition.asp
>
>
Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to help ensure your PC is protected and
safe. http://specials.msn.com/msn/security.asp
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Weight and balance |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Dcecil3@aol.com
I don't know about the model 4 ,but the model 3 manual says to use the bottom
of the fusalage, between the landing gear for level. If you have the model 4
manual it should have explained that in the wing section.In the manual I
have, it makes first mention of it in the in the section about fitting the
Flaperon.You may want to go back and check that, you may have a plane that flys
like
moth if you don't.
Best David Cecil
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Crosswind limits |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Tc9008@aol.com
On short field landing over trees, is it better to slow and pull the stick back
to get your speed down or to slip down? my problem with slipping is the speed
at flare. it too hot to touch down.
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Crosswind limits |
KILL_LEVEL=5.0@matronics.com
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: RiteAngle3@aol.com
In a message dated 4/16/04 5:39:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Tc9008@aol.com
writes:
On short field landing over trees, is it better to slow and pull the stick
back to get your speed down or to slip down? my problem with slipping is the
speed at flare. it too hot to touch down.
I'm not trying to be a wise guy, but the answer is sorta like how long is a
piece of string except that has a definite answer ~~ twice as long as 50% of
it. ~~ There are many many variables, wind velocity, wind direction, turbulence,
how much turbulence over the trees and so on. Get an experienced flight
instructor, experienced in not only the "Fox" but in the type of flying you want
to do and have him work you over. It will be the best money you ever spent,
confidence is a matter of experience, and the only way to gain experience is to
fly & practice. IF you have to slip to get into the field, should you really
be going in there? Always leave yourself an out, sure we must plan for
emergencies and that is extremely important, but it is like I tell my students~
If
you have to climb out at the best angle of climb instead of best rate of climb
to clear trees or whatever, what are you doing there in the first place! Do
you really know the actual difference in a stabilized approach at mim speed with
full flaps and a slip to landing in actual feet to stopping the aircraft?
Until you get really proficient you will be amazed.
Remember~~Safety is No Accident!
Elbie
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Crosswind limits |
QUARANTINE_LEVEL=4.0 KILL_LEVEL=5.0
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jimshumaker" <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net>
Spins? Sure...:0) Hard to initiate in a Model III. Have to pull the nose
way up to get it to spin. Even then it will spiral dive instead of spin if
I back off the pitch even a little bit.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Lina" <airlina@usadatanet.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Crosswind limits
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Lina" <airlina@usadatanet.net>
>
> Speaking of spins, has anyone ever spun their kitfox? I know Skystar has
not
> conducted a spin test program and thus prohibits spins but I have one of
the
> old promotional videos showing Jimmy Franklin doing some spins in a
> Speedster.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Clint Bazzill" <clint_bazzill@hotmail.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Crosswind limits
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clint Bazzill"
> <clint_bazzill@hotmail.com>
> >
> >
> > Tell you what. Take your airplane to altitude, do the slowest forward
slip
> that is possible, if you can make your airplane spin, I will buy your
lunch.
> Clint
> >
> >
>
>
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