---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 05/02/04: 39 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:40 AM - Mass distribution WAS: The Jury is in Foxers (Michel Verheughe) 2. 12:41 AM - Re: OT: Anything to do in New York? (Michel Verheughe) 3. 01:32 AM - Re: Mass distribution WAS: The Jury is in Foxers (kurt schrader) 4. 03:39 AM - Re: Mass distribution (Michel Verheughe) 5. 03:51 AM - Re: OT: Anything to do in New York? (AlbertaIV@aol.com) 6. 04:01 AM - mass distribution (Fox5flyer) 7. 04:44 AM - Re: The Jury is in Foxers (Jeff Hays) 8. 05:55 AM - LP windshield fit -5 (Howard Firm) 9. 06:10 AM - Kitfox on Full Lotus Floats (hausding, sid) 10. 06:44 AM - Re: Mass distribution WAS: The Jury is in Foxers (Lowell Fitt) 11. 06:45 AM - Re: Mass distribution WAS: The Jury is in Foxers (Bob Unternaehrer) 12. 07:14 AM - Re: Mass distribution, List MIA & NY (kurt schrader) 13. 07:29 AM - Re: OT US visit (RiteAngle3@aol.com) 14. 07:46 AM - Re: LP windshield fit -5 (Fox5flyer) 15. 09:20 AM - Re: The Jury is in Foxers (Steve Cooper) 16. 09:48 AM - Re: The Jury is in Foxers (Steve Cooper) 17. 10:40 AM - Re: The Jury is in Foxers (Vic Jacko) 18. 10:44 AM - Re: Mass distribution WAS: The Jury is in Foxers (Vic Jacko) 19. 10:58 AM - Re: Mass distribution WAS: The Jury is in Foxers (Bob Unternaehrer) 20. 12:54 PM - Re: OT: Anything to do in New York? (Michel Verheughe) 21. 12:55 PM - Ground Loop (Scott McClintock) 22. 01:01 PM - Re: LP windshield fit -5 (kurt schrader) 23. 01:28 PM - Re: Mass distribution (Michel Verheughe) 24. 01:34 PM - Very much Off-topic (Michel Verheughe) 25. 02:01 PM - Re: Very much Off-topic (AlbertaIV@aol.com) 26. 02:06 PM - Re: OT: Anything to do in New York? (AlbertaIV@aol.com) 27. 02:17 PM - Re: Carrier landings? (kurt schrader) 28. 02:23 PM - Re: Ground Loop (kurt schrader) 29. 02:30 PM - Re: Very much Off-topic (kurt schrader) 30. 03:13 PM - Re: Carrier landings? (Vic Jacko) 31. 04:14 PM - Fly-in (Lowell Fitt) 32. 05:17 PM - Re: Ground Loop (Bob Unternaehrer) 33. 05:20 PM - Re: Mass distribution (Bob Unternaehrer) 34. 08:21 PM - Re: Very much Off-topic (John E. King) 35. 08:47 PM - Re: Carrier landings? (kurt schrader) 36. 09:49 PM - Re: OT (RiteAngle3@aol.com) 37. 09:55 PM - Re: X-wind was Ground Loop (RiteAngle3@aol.com) 38. 10:34 PM - Re: X-wind was Ground Loop (kurt schrader) 39. 10:49 PM - Re: OT (kurt schrader) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:40:11 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Kitfox-List: Mass distribution WAS: The Jury is in Foxers --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe Bob Unternaehrer wrote: > Why don't you do a weight and balance on the airplane. Also be carefull how > much weight you put tooooo far back. In some certification test it's been > found to induce unrecoverable spins and flat spins. It's the weight on the > end of a roop idea. Hard to stop spining once you start. Bob U. Yes Bob, especially when our friend Steve writes that he went "for a spin" in his Kitfox after moving the CoG aft. A form of speech, of course, he didn't really put the plane in a spin but I reacted like you at the thought of an aft CoG and the feared flat spin. While on the subject, I have a question about mass distribution. If, say, we put two pound one feet aft to get the desired CoG, it's like putting one pound, two feet aft, right? But is it the same in terms of ground loops and spins? Take the gyroscope, the mass is distributed as far as possible from the center. It means that a ground loop or a spin will be more difficult to start, but also to end, due to greater inertia. How does this work for a small plane? Is it better to have the mass concentrated near the CoG? Certainly if we consider structural strenght but what about the flying model? How do planes with heavy wing tip tanks fly? Cheers, Michel ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:41:36 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: OT: Anything to do in New York? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe "John E. King" wrote: > My home phone number is (540) 347-9139. I'm truly retired, so no work > phone. Do Not Archive. Thanks John, it is noted. Cheers, Michel do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:32:45 AM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Mass distribution WAS: The Jury is in Foxers --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Good question Michel, There are supporters on both sides on this issue too. Angular momentum must be maintained, unless an outside force is applied,... etc, etc... So you already know that a figure skater will spin faster when her arms are pulled in, and slower when her arms are let out. This principle applies to weight distribution, and also to the nose angle in relation to the horizon. As you drop the nose to unstall the plane, it may actually spin faster initially, since the weight is brought closer to the spin axis. But unless the weight is moved, there is probably no difference in the spin between one weight distribution or the other, except structurally. Flat spins can be quite lazy. I know of an accident where a Bonanza got into a flat spin with 4 pax aboard. When the cool headed pilot could not get out of the spin, he noticed that the rate of descent was only 700'/min. He shut down the engine, turned everything off, including the fuel, dropped the gear. Whump...wrecked the plane, but they walked away from it. Don't try this at home. I am not positive, but I think you are always better off using the smallest weight you can, which means light weight furthest aft. One lb at 5 feet aft is 4 lbs better than 5 lbs at one foot aft. Same angular momentum, but 4 lbs lighter. Planes with tip tanks are more stable. They get into spins harder and get out of them harder too, just like you said about ground loops. Some planes are designed to shed the tanks in a spin. You could duplicate this by putting a water tank in the tail for releasable weight, and have a cockpit dump handle for spins, if you want to work that hard. :-) I would rather move what I need than add dead weight. BTW, this is my first night back after being bounced off the list. What did I do??? Kurt S. --- Michel Verheughe wrote: > While on the subject, I have a question about mass > distribution. If, say, we > put two pound one feet aft to get the desired CoG, > it's like putting one pound, > two feet aft, right? > But is it the same in terms of ground loops and > spins? Take the gyroscope, the > mass is distributed as far as possible from the > center. It means that a ground > loop or a spin will be more difficult to start, but > also to end, due to greater inertia. > How does this work for a small plane? Is it better > to have the mass > concentrated near the CoG? Certainly if we consider > structural strenght but > what about the flying model? How do planes with > heavy wing tip tanks fly? > > Cheers, > Michel __________________________________ http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:39:51 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Mass distribution --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe kurt schrader wrote: > Good question Michel, Thanks for the great explanation, Kurt. Indeed, it makes sense to have the mass centred near the CoG and no, I didn't know a figure skater spins faster with her arms pulled in. Despite the rumours going around, I do not spin in a tutu as a hobby or as a professional occupation, for the matter! :-) > BTW, this is my first night back after being bounced > off the list. What did I do??? Aha! I don't think anyone bounced you, Kurt, other than Matronics, after finding out that your email address was bouncing back. I tried to write to you privately a couple of weeks ago but my email bounced back. Elbie wrote then that you were away and your mailbox was full, hence the bouncing. I guess Matronics did the same thing as me, wait until you're back and clean your mailbox! :-) BTW, did you get it that I'll fly to New York this Tuesday? No seat available for Seattle. I'll see the Big Apple for the first time in my life. ... I am very excited! Cheers, Michel do not archive ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:51:39 AM PST US From: AlbertaIV@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: OT: Anything to do in New York? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com In a message dated 5/2/04 12:47:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time, michel@online.no writes: > > Thanks John, it is noted. > > Cheers, > Michel > Michel, If you make it to the D.C. area, you might talk John King into bringing you down to southeast Virginia (1 hour flight from D.C.) You not only get to meet the famous John King but the loud mouth Don Smythe. We can put together a few more Kitfoxers. Don Smythe DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:01:01 AM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Kitfox-List: mass distribution --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" Nothing that anybody here knows about. Didn't even know you were gone Kurt. Good explanation on the weight distribution. Very easy to understand. Darrel List Admin >BTW, this is my first night back after being bounced off the list. What did I do??? Kurt S. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:44:09 AM PST US From: "Jeff Hays" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: The Jury is in Foxers --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jeff Hays" Where's the W&B info from Avid? They designed it and tested it. Those were/are good flying airplanes. This thread makes me suspicious to begin with, since I haven't heard mention of the weight and balance. Too much trial and error on something that should not have to be guessed at. Bob is right 100% - Do a weight and balance. -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bob Unternaehrer Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: The Jury is in Foxers --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Unternaehrer" Why don't you do a weight and balance on the airplane. Also be carefull how much weight you put tooooo far back. In some certification test it's been found to induce unrecoverable spins and flat spins. It's the weight on the end of a roop idea. Hard to stop spining once you start. Bob U. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vic Jacko" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: The Jury is in Foxers > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Vic Jacko" > > Steve, what an "odyssey" of events. I was positive you had a case of > nose-heavy-itis. I can't figure for the life of me why some pilots live > and fly an airplane in this condition and not take time to correct it. > Great work but don't stop now, everything could even be better. > > I think you may have to move 12 lb battery even further aft than you think. > Keep working on the movement to the rear of the CG until you get it just > right! You may even have to mount it in the tail area to get it right. > > Good Luck, > > Vic > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Cooper" > To: > Subject: Kitfox-List: The Jury is in Foxers > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper" > > > > OK guys. First off...I want to say thanks for all the great help. If you > > recall, my Avid Mark IV was dropping out during the flair for landing. > This > > problem really added to the challenge of landing a taildragger. > > > > The weather her has been really lousy...wind every day, but this morning > it > > was just right for a little testing. I bought a 25lb shot bag. I decided > to > > start by placing it as far aft as possible in the luggage compartment. > This > > area begins 36" aft of the cabin. After the shot bag was secured, it took > > her up for a little spin. As soon as I lowered the nose for cruise I > > realized that there was a definate difference in the way the plane was > > flying. I had to trim for hands free which lowered the nose a little. > Cruise > > was a little higher by a couple miles per! > > > > I brought her in for landing and entered the flair. She was smooth as > silk! > > No tendancy to drop out. The glide to landing was constant. She touched > down > > sweetly. I did 6 more takeoffs and landings...each one better than the > > other. > > > > My battery is a 12.3 lb. Odyssey and is mounted above the mixer behind the > > seat. I think I'm going to cut a hole in the back of the luggage > compartment > > and create a shelf for the battery moving the weight of the battery a > little > > farther aft than the shot bag. If you guys have any suggestions for > > alternative mounting locations I'd like to hear your ideas. > > > > Anyway...thanks again for your help with this problem...you guys are the > > greatest. I sure am happy that it's solved...go'in fly'in again tomorrow > > morning. ;) > > > > Steve > > > > > > > --- > > --- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:55:51 AM PST US From: "Howard Firm" Subject: Kitfox-List: LP windshield fit -5 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Howard Firm" Hey guys and gals!!! I'm trying to fit my preformed windshield to the strait cowling on my -5 and the front of the windshield doesn't have enough "curve" in the front to fit to the cowling. Also, it's curved out a bit from the door post mounting area. If I squeeze the sides on the windshield together, I can get the front to bow out, but I'm putting a lot of stress there...has anyone used a heat gun on these areas to help with the fit? Howard Firm 508 12th St. South Virginia MN 55792 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:10:50 AM PST US From: "hausding, sid" Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox on Full Lotus Floats --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "hausding, sid" Thank you John, haven't seen or heard from you lately. Glad to hear and see you're still kicking and sending out all the valuable experience you're hiding inside............what are you flying nowdays, the Pursang? Sid DO NOT ARCHIVE --> Kitfox-List message posted by: John Larsen C.O. Denny is Dan's brother Charles. (Don't call him Chuck). He worked as a photog and manual writer for Skystar and also worked on the manual for Thunder Mustang. hausding, sid wrote: >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "hausding, sid" > > > Found one on the "ThunderMustang" website last night.........way down under >one of the last choices for the website..............apparently C.O. Denny >must have something to do with Dan, but is the picture taking member of the >family. >-------------------------------------------- > > >-------Original Message------- > >From: kitfox-list@matronics.com >Date: 04/29/04 23:30:51 >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox on Full Lotus Floats > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Shane Sather" > >Hello Mark did you get the picture I sent to you > > >Shane >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Marc Arseneault" >To: >Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox on Full Lotus Floats > > >>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Marc Arseneault" >> >> > > > >>Would anybody have pics of a Kitfox on Full Lotus Floats that they would >> >> >be able to send to me? It would be greatly appreciated! Please email me off >list at northernultralights@hotmail .com. > > >>DO NOT ARCHIVE >> >> >>Best Regards, >> >>Marc Arseneault >>Ontario Canada >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:44:59 AM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Mass distribution WAS: The Jury is in Foxers --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" > Bob Unternaehrer wrote: > > Why don't you do a weight and balance on the airplane. Also be carefull how > > much weight you put tooooo far back. In some certification test it's been > > found to induce unrecoverable spins and flat spins. It's the weight on the > > end of a roop idea. Hard to stop spining once you start. Bob U. > The following link takes you to a neat program that allows a builder to move a selected weight along an arm to give the desired weight and balance. How to get the program is explained. http://www.sportflight.com/kfb/download.htm Lowell ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:45:07 AM PST US From: "Bob Unternaehrer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Mass distribution WAS: The Jury is in Foxers --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Unternaehrer" I doubt if I can explain this very adequately, although I understand it completely. I wish my brother was on this list, He could do it. Mass distribution as it relates to Spins is different than as it relates to ground loops. Ground looping tendency is greater in Tailwheel airplanes because the CG is BEHIND the main landing gear. The farther you put mass behind the mains the more the "gyroscopic" , as you adequately called it, effect the directional stability. I think of it like the tailwheel airplane only has 3 point masses. One on each main and one on the tailwheel. As you go "perfectly" straight down the runway there are NO internal physical forces trying to TURN the airplane. NOW as something upsets this equilibrium, such as wind, pilot input, etc, this imagined point mass at the tailwheel supplys the turning moment to try to rotate (ground loop) the airplane about the verticle axis. The MORE this weight is and/or the faster the upset happens, and the further the weight is from the main gear, the more severe the "gyroscopic" or acccelerating action will be. To the contrary, with the Nose gear airplane the CG is in front of the MAINS and any upset in direction or forces about the Verticle axis tend to correct themselves back to the orginal direction of motion NOT get worse. THUS you drive the Nosedragger and FLY (with quick rudders) the taildragger all the way to the hanger. Now when your in the AIR these forces react about the same, but around the Center of Lift, Not the center of gravity, and wheel positions are NOT a factor, since they aren't reacting with "TERRA FIRMA" (mother earth). Therfore a concentrated Mass a long way from the center of lift will generate a LOT of "gyroscopic" forces, which will accellerate with direction changes unless counteracted with control inputs, and some airplanes might not have the necessary control inputs to counteract these upsets in stability and thus continue into the Spin or Flat spin until the unwanted contact with terra firma. Thus the Warning about too much weight a long distance from the Center of LIFT. I speak to this subject after carefull consideration concerning modification of my CG on my C-150 Texas Taildragger. After installing the Lycoming O-320 I found the CG to be out of tollerance forward (heavy engine). I decided to fly it that way anyhow, and really it seemed to fly good. (better forward than back , theory). One day while "dragging it into a real short field (800 ft) with a muddy field on the apporach end and no obstacles, I ran out of elevator authority and didn't get into the power quick enough and "splashed" into the mudd. Thank God for 16" tundra tires. I then calculated what weight it would take to move the cg to 1" inside invelope with just me in the seats. The STC only allows weight within 24" of the baggage compartment. It would have taken 60 lbs in that location or 12lbs in the tail. With a 45 year old airplane already severely over weight, I chose the Tail location. I don't spin it and don't even like to stall it, especially full power takeoff stalls and am conscous of its hazzards every minuite of flight. On a recent biannual the instructor ask me to do a full power turning stall under the hood and I refused. I said you can flunk me or we will demonstrate the "approach" to this stall only (very steep and scarry with zero airspeed... Well "that's my story and I'm sticking to it"... Bob U. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Verheughe" Subject: Kitfox-List: Mass distribution WAS: The Jury is in Foxers > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe > > Bob Unternaehrer wrote: > > Why don't you do a weight and balance on the airplane. Also be carefull how > > much weight you put tooooo far back. In some certification test it's been > > found to induce unrecoverable spins and flat spins. It's the weight on the > > end of a roop idea. Hard to stop spining once you start. Bob U. > > Yes Bob, especially when our friend Steve writes that he went "for a spin" in > his Kitfox after moving the CoG aft. A form of speech, of course, he didn't > really put the plane in a spin but I reacted like you at the thought of an aft > CoG and the feared flat spin. > > While on the subject, I have a question about mass distribution. If, say, we > put two pound one feet aft to get the desired CoG, it's like putting one pound, > two feet aft, right? > But is it the same in terms of ground loops and spins? Take the gyroscope, the > mass is distributed as far as possible from the center. It means that a ground > loop or a spin will be more difficult to start, but also to end, due to greater inertia. > How does this work for a small plane? Is it better to have the mass > concentrated near the CoG? Certainly if we consider structural strenght but > what about the flying model? How do planes with heavy wing tip tanks fly? > > Cheers, > Michel > > > --- > > --- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:14:11 AM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Mass distribution, List MIA & NY --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Michel and all, Well, I was reading my e-mail from my sister's and cousin's computers while away. Can't reply that way, but I was trying to keep up and keep my Yahoo mailbox empty. Saw that the messages dwindled to almost nothing, so I checked the 7 day archive. I wasn't getting all the e-mail, but I caught about the last 10 days of what was archived there. If it wasn't archived, I missed it. Came home and found that I had 2 virus's on my computer here. Got them around April 3rd it appears. My last outgoing e-mails had bounced too, causing me to update and rescan right away. They were nasty new ones that got past my programs and wouldn't delete, even with the checker updated. I had to go to safe mode and catch them before they started, then cleaned them out by hand. I assumed Yahoo or Matronics isolated me due to that, so I was MIA until I had this thing cleaned out. Then I reapplied to the list. It must have been Matronics, because that got me back. :-) On Mass Distribution: I put my battery and ELT as far back as I could to get my balance to work with the least weight. I didn't want to add lead if I could help it. Still haven't done spins yet, so I can't comment on that point. But I don't intend to do any spins past the mid CG point anyway. Got enough problems keeping the oil in my motor as it is. Don't need to spin dry it. :-) And yes, when the weight is pulled inward, the speed must increase to maintain the angular momentum. But we don't move the weight, except with pitch, so I think the distribution is not as important as balance and total weight. I know of at least one other builder who kept his weight inboard for spin control, so that must work too. Yes, I got the last part of the NY info from the archive Michel. If you can see John King and Don S. after NY, you will be in the best company too. Fly with them if you can. Beg is you must. Having been a line-boy myself, I would offer to wash and wax their planes for a flight. Or you could bring the horned helmit, wear the Tutu and tell sea stories.... :-) I was going to say that John is not telling it quite right about being retired. If you call building and flying works of art on near polar expiditions retired, he sure stays busy doing it. Between Don and John you might hear an occasional opinion about Fox's too. Take notes! Take pictures. See if you can get Don to fly out of the pattern. :-) Kurt S. --- Michel Verheughe wrote: > > kurt schrader wrote: > > Good question Michel, > > Thanks for the great explanation, Kurt. Indeed, it > makes sense to have the mass > centred near the CoG and no, I didn't know a figure > skater spins faster with > her arms pulled in. Despite the rumours going > around..... > BTW, did you get it that I'll fly to New York this > Tuesday? No seat available > for Seattle. I'll see the Big Apple for the first > time in my life. ... I am very excited! > > Cheers, > Michel __________________________________ http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:29:39 AM PST US From: RiteAngle3@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: OT US visit --> Kitfox-List message posted by: RiteAngle3@aol.com In a message dated 5/2/04 3:43:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time, michel@online.no writes: No seat available for Seattle. I'll see the Big Apple for the first time in my life. ... I am very excited! Michel, I guess this proves the NW is a good place to visit, no room on the planes :-) Elbie 15 miles N of Portland, OR in WA State ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:46:12 AM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: LP windshield fit -5 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" Yes, you can use a heat gun, but be mega careful. Once it's in place you don't want ANY stress points anywhere or it will eventually crack. My advice would be to call LP and have them talk you through it. They're easy to work with. Darrel > Hey guys and gals!!! I'm trying to fit my preformed windshield to the strait > cowling on my -5 and the front of the windshield doesn't have enough "curve" > in the front to fit to the cowling. Also, it's curved out a bit from the > door post mounting area. If I squeeze the sides on the windshield together, > I can get the front to bow out, but I'm putting a lot of stress there...has > anyone used a heat gun on these areas to help with the fit? > Howard Firm ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:20:18 AM PST US From: "Steve Cooper" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: The Jury is in Foxers --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper" Sure! A pic would be GREAT! I appreciate it. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "roger augenstein" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: The Jury is in Foxers > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "roger augenstein" > > Steve, > I moved my battery, which was aft the seats, to the tail and mounted it aft > of the near vertical braces. I cut a thin piece of alum the size of the > door, roughed up the paint and glued it to the fabric. I had previously cut > a matching alum for inside the fabric and also drilled holes to pop rivet > the two together. With this in place the center fabric was cut out. I had > also previously drilled the above framed pieces to match the alum door which > was the camloced in place. Can send pics if you want. > Roger KY series 5 Ej22 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Cooper" > To: > Subject: Kitfox-List: The Jury is in Foxers > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper" > > > > OK guys. First off...I want to say thanks for all the great help. If you > > recall, my Avid Mark IV was dropping out during the flair for landing. > This > > problem really added to the challenge of landing a taildragger. > > > > The weather her has been really lousy...wind every day, but this morning > it > > was just right for a little testing. I bought a 25lb shot bag. I decided > to > > start by placing it as far aft as possible in the luggage compartment. > This > > area begins 36" aft of the cabin. After the shot bag was secured, it took > > her up for a little spin. As soon as I lowered the nose for cruise I > > realized that there was a definate difference in the way the plane was > > flying. I had to trim for hands free which lowered the nose a little. > Cruise > > was a little higher by a couple miles per! > > > > I brought her in for landing and entered the flair. She was smooth as > silk! > > No tendancy to drop out. The glide to landing was constant. She touched > down > > sweetly. I did 6 more takeoffs and landings...each one better than the > > other. > > > > My battery is a 12.3 lb. Odyssey and is mounted above the mixer behind the > > seat. I think I'm going to cut a hole in the back of the luggage > compartment > > and create a shelf for the battery moving the weight of the battery a > little > > farther aft than the shot bag. If you guys have any suggestions for > > alternative mounting locations I'd like to hear your ideas. > > > > Anyway...thanks again for your help with this problem...you guys are the > > greatest. I sure am happy that it's solved...go'in fly'in again tomorrow > > morning. ;) > > > > Steve > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:48:42 AM PST US From: "Steve Cooper" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: The Jury is in Foxers --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper" Weight & Balance is indeed important. I have accomplished this several times on this aircraft. No guessing games. After pulling a Rotax 670 RAVE engine and installing a Jabiru 2200 (it sticks out over 2" further that the Rotax did), a weight & balance was performed with the assistance of EAA club 49. CG was very near the forward limit. However, since it was well withen the CG range for the plane, I went ahead and decided to fly it What I discovered was that the plane would suddently and with no warning, drop out of the flair for landing. I got a lot of good advice from the list and finally decided that I would take a 25lb shot bag and place it in the aft portion of the Luggage compartment. This was a very safe strategy because the load limit in that area is 30 lbs. and I knew it would move the CG aft...SAFELY. Well, it solved the problem completely. Now the glide is consistant and predictable. the CG range for the Avid Mark IV is a couple of inches...don't remember the exact numbers right now. My W&B sheets are out at the hangar...but it's something like 11.2" to 14.6" aft of the leading edge of the wing. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hays" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: The Jury is in Foxers > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jeff Hays" > > > Where's the W&B info from Avid? They designed it and tested > it. Those were/are good flying airplanes. This thread makes > me suspicious to begin with, since I haven't heard mention > of the weight and balance. Too much trial and error on something > that should not have to be guessed at. > > Bob is right 100% - Do a weight and balance. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bob > Unternaehrer > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: The Jury is in Foxers > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Unternaehrer" > > Why don't you do a weight and balance on the airplane. Also be carefull how > much weight you put tooooo far back. In some certification test it's been > found to induce unrecoverable spins and flat spins. It's the weight on the > end of a roop idea. Hard to stop spining once you start. Bob U. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vic Jacko" > To: > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: The Jury is in Foxers > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Vic Jacko" > > > > Steve, what an "odyssey" of events. I was positive you had a case of > > nose-heavy-itis. I can't figure for the life of me why some pilots > live > > and fly an airplane in this condition and not take time to correct it. > > Great work but don't stop now, everything could even be better. > > > > I think you may have to move 12 lb battery even further aft than you > think. > > Keep working on the movement to the rear of the CG until you get it just > > right! You may even have to mount it in the tail area to get it right. > > > > Good Luck, > > > > Vic > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Steve Cooper" > > To: > > Subject: Kitfox-List: The Jury is in Foxers > > > > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper" > > > > > > > OK guys. First off...I want to say thanks for all the great help. If you > > > recall, my Avid Mark IV was dropping out during the flair for landing. > > This > > > problem really added to the challenge of landing a taildragger. > > > > > > The weather her has been really lousy...wind every day, but this morning > > it > > > was just right for a little testing. I bought a 25lb shot bag. I decided > > to > > > start by placing it as far aft as possible in the luggage compartment. > > This > > > area begins 36" aft of the cabin. After the shot bag was secured, it > took > > > her up for a little spin. As soon as I lowered the nose for cruise I > > > realized that there was a definate difference in the way the plane was > > > flying. I had to trim for hands free which lowered the nose a little. > > Cruise > > > was a little higher by a couple miles per! > > > > > > I brought her in for landing and entered the flair. She was smooth as > > silk! > > > No tendancy to drop out. The glide to landing was constant. She touched > > down > > > sweetly. I did 6 more takeoffs and landings...each one better than the > > > other. > > > > > > My battery is a 12.3 lb. Odyssey and is mounted above the mixer behind > the > > > seat. I think I'm going to cut a hole in the back of the luggage > > compartment > > > and create a shelf for the battery moving the weight of the battery a > > little > > > farther aft than the shot bag. If you guys have any suggestions for > > > alternative mounting locations I'd like to hear your ideas. > > > > > > Anyway...thanks again for your help with this problem...you guys are the > > > greatest. I sure am happy that it's solved...go'in fly'in again tomorrow > > > morning. ;) > > > > > > Steve > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > --- > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:40:23 AM PST US From: "Vic Jacko" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: The Jury is in Foxers --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Vic Jacko" Bob, I could not agree with you more. Steve, Please do a "complete" weight and balance from scratch as if it is a new airplane. Put the scales under the tires and do the numbers with the new info. I would do it twice, once with the plane in its current condition and again after you move the battery to the tail. The weight on the wheels do not lie but the numbers from not doing it may. The previous experience should prove that fact to you. Good luck on this new adventure and please keep us informed. Vic From: "Bob Unternaehrer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: The Jury is in Foxers > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Unternaehrer" > > Why don't you do a weight and balance on the airplane. Also be carefull how > much weight you put tooooo far back. In some certification test it's been > found to induce unrecoverable spins and flat spins. It's the weight on the > end of a roop idea. Hard to stop spining once you start. Bob U. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vic Jacko" > To: > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: The Jury is in Foxers > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Vic Jacko" > > > > Steve, what an "odyssey" of events. I was positive you had a case of > > nose-heavy-itis. I can't figure for the life of me why some pilots > live > > and fly an airplane in this condition and not take time to correct it. > > Great work but don't stop now, everything could even be better. > > > > I think you may have to move 12 lb battery even further aft than you > think. > > Keep working on the movement to the rear of the CG until you get it just > > right! You may even have to mount it in the tail area to get it right. > > > > Good Luck, > > > > Vic > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Steve Cooper" > > To: > > Subject: Kitfox-List: The Jury is in Foxers > > > > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper" > > > > > > > OK guys. First off...I want to say thanks for all the great help. If you > > > recall, my Avid Mark IV was dropping out during the flair for landing. > > This > > > problem really added to the challenge of landing a taildragger. > > > > > > The weather her has been really lousy...wind every day, but this morning > > it > > > was just right for a little testing. I bought a 25lb shot bag. I decided > > to > > > start by placing it as far aft as possible in the luggage compartment. > > This > > > area begins 36" aft of the cabin. After the shot bag was secured, it > took > > > her up for a little spin. As soon as I lowered the nose for cruise I > > > realized that there was a definate difference in the way the plane was > > > flying. I had to trim for hands free which lowered the nose a little. > > Cruise > > > was a little higher by a couple miles per! > > > > > > I brought her in for landing and entered the flair. She was smooth as > > silk! > > > No tendancy to drop out. The glide to landing was constant. She touched > > down > > > sweetly. I did 6 more takeoffs and landings...each one better than the > > > other. > > > > > > My battery is a 12.3 lb. Odyssey and is mounted above the mixer behind > the > > > seat. I think I'm going to cut a hole in the back of the luggage > > compartment > > > and create a shelf for the battery moving the weight of the battery a > > little > > > farther aft than the shot bag. If you guys have any suggestions for > > > alternative mounting locations I'd like to hear your ideas. > > > > > > Anyway...thanks again for your help with this problem...you guys are the > > > greatest. I sure am happy that it's solved...go'in fly'in again tomorrow > > > morning. ;) > > > > > > Steve > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > --- > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:44:52 AM PST US From: "Vic Jacko" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Mass distribution WAS: The Jury is in Foxers --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Vic Jacko" Hey Kurt, didn't you fly F-18 onto a flight deck while with the Marines? I heard they hit the deck at 700 feet per minute and then hit full power. Tell us about that! Vic ----- Original Message ----- From: "kurt schrader" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Mass distribution WAS: The Jury is in Foxers > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader > > Good question Michel, > > There are supporters on both sides on this issue too. > Angular momentum must be maintained, unless an outside > force is applied,... etc, etc... So you already know > that a figure skater will spin faster when her arms > are pulled in, and slower when her arms are let out. > > This principle applies to weight distribution, and > also to the nose angle in relation to the horizon. As > you drop the nose to unstall the plane, it may > actually spin faster initially, since the weight is > brought closer to the spin axis. But unless the > weight is moved, there is probably no difference in > the spin between one weight distribution or the other, > except structurally. > > Flat spins can be quite lazy. I know of an accident > where a Bonanza got into a flat spin with 4 pax > aboard. When the cool headed pilot could not get out > of the spin, he noticed that the rate of descent was > only 700'/min. He shut down the engine, turned > everything off, including the fuel, dropped the gear. > Whump...wrecked the plane, but they walked away from > it. Don't try this at home. > > I am not positive, but I think you are always better > off using the smallest weight you can, which means > light weight furthest aft. One lb at 5 feet aft is 4 > lbs better than 5 lbs at one foot aft. Same angular > momentum, but 4 lbs lighter. > > Planes with tip tanks are more stable. They get into > spins harder and get out of them harder too, just like > you said about ground loops. Some planes are designed > to shed the tanks in a spin. You could duplicate this > by putting a water tank in the tail for releasable > weight, and have a cockpit dump handle for spins, if > you want to work that hard. :-) I would rather move > what I need than add dead weight. > > BTW, this is my first night back after being bounced > off the list. What did I do??? > > Kurt S. > > --- Michel Verheughe wrote: > > > While on the subject, I have a question about mass > > distribution. If, say, we > > put two pound one feet aft to get the desired CoG, > > it's like putting one pound, > > two feet aft, right? > > But is it the same in terms of ground loops and > > spins? Take the gyroscope, the > > mass is distributed as far as possible from the > > center. It means that a ground > > loop or a spin will be more difficult to start, but > > also to end, due to greater inertia. > > How does this work for a small plane? Is it better > > to have the mass > > concentrated near the CoG? Certainly if we consider > > structural strenght but > > what about the flying model? How do planes with > > heavy wing tip tanks fly? > > > > Cheers, > > Michel > > > __________________________________ > http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:58:14 AM PST US From: "Bob Unternaehrer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Mass distribution WAS: The Jury is in Foxers --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Unternaehrer" Michel, I didn't want to add to my tooooo long response, but I didin't find any ill effects to flight characteristics except the running out of elevator authority. All airplanes can be and are different, but Steve's problem could simply be technique. A good weight and balance would be in order before moving things. Bob U. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Verheughe" Subject: Kitfox-List: Mass distribution WAS: The Jury is in Foxers > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe > > Bob Unternaehrer wrote: > > Why don't you do a weight and balance on the airplane. Also be carefull how > > much weight you put tooooo far back. In some certification test it's been > > found to induce unrecoverable spins and flat spins. It's the weight on the > > end of a roop idea. Hard to stop spining once you start. Bob U. > > Yes Bob, especially when our friend Steve writes that he went "for a spin" in > his Kitfox after moving the CoG aft. A form of speech, of course, he didn't > really put the plane in a spin but I reacted like you at the thought of an aft > CoG and the feared flat spin. > > While on the subject, I have a question about mass distribution. If, say, we > put two pound one feet aft to get the desired CoG, it's like putting one pound, > two feet aft, right? > But is it the same in terms of ground loops and spins? Take the gyroscope, the > mass is distributed as far as possible from the center. It means that a ground > loop or a spin will be more difficult to start, but also to end, due to greater inertia. > How does this work for a small plane? Is it better to have the mass > concentrated near the CoG? Certainly if we consider structural strenght but > what about the flying model? How do planes with heavy wing tip tanks fly? > > Cheers, > Michel > > > --- > > --- ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:54:32 PM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: OT: Anything to do in New York? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe AlbertaIV@aol.com wrote: > Michel, > If you make it to the D.C. area, you might talk John King into bringing > you down to southeast Virginia (1 hour flight from D.C.) You not only get to > meet the famous John King but the loud mouth Don Smythe. We can put together a > few more Kitfoxers. I really would love that, Don! I'll call John when I am over there and let you know if I can stay a bit longer. I keep my fingers crossed! Cheers, Michel do not archive ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:55:36 PM PST US From: Scott McClintock Subject: Kitfox-List: Ground Loop --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Scott McClintock Hey, Does anybody have a "spare" spring gear for a series 5? I had a nasty little ground loop yesterday (bad X-wind) and bent mine. Nobody hurt (except my pride) and my gear. 20 knot X-wind was just too much. Had the rudder to the floor but as the plane slowed I guess there was just not enough air flowing over the rudder and the X-wind just spun me around. Damn! Scott in Nome ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 01:01:25 PM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: LP windshield fit -5 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Hey Howard, Sounds like it spread out again during storage. Don't install it now unless you have a warm place. It is just too cold there. Wait for Thursday when it will be warmer. Even that heat will make a big difference in lowering the stress on your new window as you bend and drill it. Once it is warmer, you might set it in place and clamp the sides to the uprights just to let it set as the internal heat comes up too. Give it a little time. I did my windshield in the heat, but my doors when it was 50. Broke 3 door glass pieces! Just a tap or bad drilling does it. Luckily the side glass was cheap. I was pushing to complete it for the inspection. You should have at least 70 degrees before bending and drilling. Even warmer is better. Sunshine helps too. Heat lamps might work well. I didn't like my heatgun results... Too consentrated even when sweeping the gun. You can get stress and distortions elsewhere. Make sure to line up the back edge with the overhead rear crossmember to get the right length at the top too. You may need to trim the sides back to fit. Mine wouldn't reach. Kurt S. --- Howard Firm wrote: > I'm trying to fit my preformed > windshield to the strait cowling on my -5 .... > If I squeeze the sides on the windshield together, > I can get the front to bow out, but I'm putting a > lot of stress there...has anyone used a heat gun... > Howard Firm > 508 12th St. South > Virginia MN 55792 __________________________________ http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:28:28 PM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Mass distribution --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe Bob Unternaehrer wrote: > Michel, I didn't want to add to my tooooo long response, No answer is ever too long for me, Bob. As my mother was pregnant with me, her first born, she was already flying with my father. Maybe that's the reason for my interest in aviation. :-) But not until recently I had the good fortune to practice it myself. Before that, it was flight simulators. And it is in that group that we were recently talking about the distribution of the mass. As it is now, we can place three CoG, the main one and two for two fuel tanks. As those two get empty, the flight characteristics change. Then someone meant that something was wrong because say, a modelled 747 would respond to elevator's input as fast as say, a Kitfox. Then we tried to find out why it shouldn't. ... or, should it? I understand the ground loop and the spin being two entirely different things, the former being around the wheels and the latter, around the center of lift. But both should be influenced by the mass distribution, I think. Sometimes I like to think about those things. Then my wife would ask: What are you thinking about? To what I usually answer: You don't want to know, boys think about weird things! :-) Cheers, Michel ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:34:46 PM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Kitfox-List: Very much Off-topic --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe kurt schrader wrote: > Or you could bring the horned > helmit, wear the Tutu and tell sea stories.... :-) Good Lord! What kind of reputation are you giving me, Kurt! I am not sure John and Don will ever want to meet me now! :-) Michel do not archive ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:01:34 PM PST US From: AlbertaIV@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Very much Off-topic --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com In a message dated 5/2/04 1:43:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time, michel@online.no writes: > Good Lord! What kind of reputation are you giving me, Kurt! I am not sure > John > and Don will ever want to meet me now! :-) > > Michel > > Michel, Don't worry, John King wears horns in his sleep. Ha.... Don Smythe DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:06:44 PM PST US From: AlbertaIV@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: OT: Anything to do in New York? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com In a message dated 5/2/04 12:56:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, michel@online.no writes: > > I really would love that, Don! I'll call John when I am over there and let > you > know if I can stay a bit longer. I keep my fingers crossed! > > Cheers, > Michel > Michel, Lots of US history where I live. First settlement of the nation (Jamestown, Virginia), Battle of Yorktown (Yorktown, Virginia) and, the list goes on and on. BTW, we have an air museum with a brand new Kitfox (never flown) hanging from the ceiling. Don Smythe DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 02:17:26 PM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Carrier landings? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Hi Vic, Well, I flew A-4's like the instructor in Top Gun... A few stories. Do not archive, unless you really want to. I thought I knew ships well enough having spent 14 months at sea in Helos. But when I went aboard in jets, I still got a few surprises. On the first Cat launch, I thought I had everything locked down. Throttle arm braced so I don't go off at idle when the G's pull my arm back! Stick hand off the stick and ready to catch it as it comes back before sudden pain to the privates! (Got'ta do this quick because you salute the deck officer right before the launch to say "ready".) Head back to save the neck. Feet off the brakes.... Launch!...and suddenly my knees hit my chest! The dark visor slapped up into my helmit and I was pitched up facing the afternoon sun and blind! 140 KTS in maybe 1.5 seconds. You got to secure everything! Had the artificial horizon come flying out at me and almost jamb the stick once too. Wasn't secured to the panel right. The amp plug stopped it from hitting the floor, but it hung up right behind the stick. Had to get it out of the way quick to lower the nose, or stall. Then the ship runs you over. :-( Bad do do. Every launch is life and death. It pays to do your own maintenance. :-) One of my Navy friends keyed the transmitter button, which is on the throttle, by mistake during launch. He was heard screeming for maybe 3 seconds as the Cat did its job and before he recovered. "IIIiiiiiieeeeee!" The Airboss replied, "It was good for me. Was it good for you?" Breaks the tension... Now on landing, you have to go to full power because the jet engines don't spool up for maybe 10 seconds! You'd be in the drink long before that if you boltered. That is why you have speed brakes out and power up for approach too. Quick reactions needed. Otherwise if you get low, the engine will power up right about when you hit the ship on the side below deck. Not the least bit funny. We are talking high or low by 3 feet here to land. You watch the mirror. The LSO is talking...finger on the go around button. So you are making these 1/10th second decisions for carrier landings, especially at night. Eyes wide as saucers. No flare! That is a hard habit to break. You have no doubt when you hit though. It is violent. But forget that. You must go speed brakes in and to full power NOW! It is like being punched while disarming a bomb. Pay attention! The wire grabs you and you are thrown to a stop with the plane fighting to go. Feels like you are going to stand on your nose. The end of the ship is coming up so fast at 140'/sec! It is short! You hate the part you passed over. Even 10 feet. Gon'na make it? Yes....no....yes! As soon as the you have the wire, you have to go to idle. The jet engine doesn't slow down that fast either. If the wire brakes, eject! So it is SLAM! Power up and speed brakes in! Yank - thrown forward! Power off. Eject? No! Normal landing. 3 seconds or less. "OK 3 wire. Have a nice day." The wire pulls you backward and you coast back a little to let the wire drop free of the hook. Cool pilots are already doing the after landing checklist now some 5 seconds after slamming on the deck and while getting ready to taxi clear of the wires. Like, hey. You got nothing else to do right now. Your brain is still at Mach speed.... If you got hurt, you wouldn't know it for another few minutes. No time right now for the little things. That is going on now as you read this somewhere at sea. Thanks to them, we are free. Having paid the price, you learn to hate those who give it away for free. IMHO Kurt S. --- Vic Jacko wrote: > > Hey Kurt, didn't you fly F-18 onto a flight deck > while with the Marines? > > I heard they hit the deck at 700 feet per minute and > then hit full power. Tell us about that! > > Vic __________________________________ http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 02:23:56 PM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ground Loop --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Scott, Is it a Grove? Talk to them first if so. You'll be happy you did. Kurt S. --- Scott McClintock > > Hey, > Does anybody have a "spare" spring gear for a series > 5? > I had a nasty little ground loop yesterday (bad > X-wind) and bent mine. > Nobody hurt (except my pride) and my gear. 20 knot > X-wind was just too > much. Had the rudder to the floor but as the plane > slowed I guess there > was just not enough air flowing over the rudder and > the X-wind just spun > me around. Damn! > Scott in Nome __________________________________ http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 02:30:19 PM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Very much Off-topic --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Nawww Michel, You'd fit right in in NY. :~) Hope you get the time to see John and Don. Kurt S. --- Michel Verheughe wrote: > > kurt schrader wrote: > > Or you could bring the horned > > helmit, wear the Tutu and tell sea stories.... > :-) > > Good Lord! What kind of reputation are you giving > me, Kurt! I am not sure John > and Don will ever want to meet me now! :-) > > Michel > > do not archive __________________________________ http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 03:13:27 PM PST US From: "Vic Jacko" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Carrier landings? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Vic Jacko" Kurt, I am retired from the Army and I appreciate the following comment from those who mean it, "thank you for your service to our country" and I say to you, "thank you for your service to our country". Also thanks for the blow by blow description of a nice relaxed day at sea. What is the rate of descent when the aircraft "hits the deck"? Vic Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "kurt schrader" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Carrier landings? > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader > > Hi Vic, > > Well, I flew A-4's like the instructor in Top Gun... > A few stories. > > Do not archive, unless you really want to. > > I thought I knew ships well enough having spent 14 > months at sea in Helos. But when I went aboard in > jets, I still got a few surprises. On the first Cat > launch, I thought I had everything locked down. > Throttle arm braced so I don't go off at idle when the > G's pull my arm back! Stick hand off the stick and > ready to catch it as it comes back before sudden pain > to the privates! (Got'ta do this quick because you > salute the deck officer right before the launch to say > "ready".) Head back to save the neck. Feet off the > brakes.... > > Launch!...and suddenly my knees hit my chest! The > dark visor slapped up into my helmit and I was pitched > up facing the afternoon sun and blind! 140 KTS in > maybe 1.5 seconds. You got to secure everything! > > Had the artificial horizon come flying out at me and > almost jamb the stick once too. Wasn't secured to the > panel right. The amp plug stopped it from hitting the > floor, but it hung up right behind the stick. Had to > get it out of the way quick to lower the nose, or > stall. Then the ship runs you over. :-( Bad do do. > Every launch is life and death. > > It pays to do your own maintenance. :-) > > One of my Navy friends keyed the transmitter button, > which is on the throttle, by mistake during launch. > He was heard screeming for maybe 3 seconds as the Cat > did its job and before he recovered. > "IIIiiiiiieeeeee!" > > The Airboss replied, "It was good for me. Was it good > for you?" Breaks the tension... > > Now on landing, you have to go to full power because > the jet engines don't spool up for maybe 10 seconds! > You'd be in the drink long before that if you > boltered. That is why you have speed brakes out and > power up for approach too. Quick reactions needed. > Otherwise if you get low, the engine will power up > right about when you hit the ship on the side below > deck. Not the least bit funny. We are talking high > or low by 3 feet here to land. You watch the mirror. > The LSO is talking...finger on the go around button. > > So you are making these 1/10th second decisions for > carrier landings, especially at night. Eyes wide as > saucers. No flare! That is a hard habit to break. > You have no doubt when you hit though. It is violent. > But forget that. You must go speed brakes in and to > full power NOW! It is like being punched while > disarming a bomb. Pay attention! > > The wire grabs you and you are thrown to a stop with > the plane fighting to go. Feels like you are going to > stand on your nose. The end of the ship is coming up > so fast at 140'/sec! It is short! You hate the part > you passed over. Even 10 feet. Gon'na make it? > Yes....no....yes! As soon as the you have the wire, > you have to go to idle. The jet engine doesn't slow > down that fast either. If the wire brakes, eject! > > So it is SLAM! Power up and speed brakes in! Yank - > thrown forward! Power off. Eject? No! Normal > landing. 3 seconds or less. "OK 3 wire. Have a nice > day." > > The wire pulls you backward and you coast back a > little to let the wire drop free of the hook. Cool > pilots are already doing the after landing checklist > now some 5 seconds after slamming on the deck and > while getting ready to taxi clear of the wires. Like, > hey. You got nothing else to do right now. Your > brain is still at Mach speed.... If you got hurt, you > wouldn't know it for another few minutes. No time > right now for the little things. > > That is going on now as you read this somewhere at > sea. Thanks to them, we are free. Having paid the > price, you learn to hate those who give it away for > free. IMHO > > Kurt S. > > --- Vic Jacko wrote: > > > > Hey Kurt, didn't you fly F-18 onto a flight deck > > while with the Marines? > > > > I heard they hit the deck at 700 feet per minute and > > then hit full power. Tell us about that! > > > > Vic > > > __________________________________ > http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 04:14:44 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Kitfox-List: Fly-in --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" All this talk about Michel coming to the US and hooking up with Kitfox people reminds me that I should remind everyone that the 5th edition of the Cameron Park Kitfox Fly-in and BBQ will be held again on the Second Saturday in June - the 12th. It looks like a good crowd again this year from the early reports. I have heard from a few individuals new to me who are new builders, some from the Southern part of the state. for details visit: http://www.cameronparkkitfox.com/pages/home.htm Kay and I are getting the place ready and will be ready early Saturday morning. For those traveling long distances, let us know how we can help. Lowell ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 05:17:28 PM PST US From: "Bob Unternaehrer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ground Loop --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Unternaehrer" What brand gear.. Most can be straightened and one has a lifetime guarantee against everything. Bob U. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott McClintock" Subject: Kitfox-List: Ground Loop > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Scott McClintock > > Hey, > Does anybody have a "spare" spring gear for a series 5? > I had a nasty little ground loop yesterday (bad X-wind) and bent mine. > Nobody hurt (except my pride) and my gear. 20 knot X-wind was just too > much. Had the rudder to the floor but as the plane slowed I guess there > was just not enough air flowing over the rudder and the X-wind just spun > me around. Damn! > Scott in Nome > > > --- > > --- ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 05:20:41 PM PST US From: "Bob Unternaehrer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Mass distribution --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Unternaehrer" But both should be influenced by the mass distribution, I think>> Right on! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Verheughe" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Mass distribution > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe > > Bob Unternaehrer wrote: > > Michel, I didn't want to add to my tooooo long response, > > No answer is ever too long for me, Bob. As my mother was pregnant with me, her > first born, she was already flying with my father. Maybe that's the reason for > my interest in aviation. :-) > But not until recently I had the good fortune to practice it myself. Before > that, it was flight simulators. And it is in that group that we were recently > talking about the distribution of the mass. As it is now, we can place three > CoG, the main one and two for two fuel tanks. As those two get empty, the > flight characteristics change. > Then someone meant that something was wrong because say, a modelled 747 would > respond to elevator's input as fast as say, a Kitfox. > Then we tried to find out why it shouldn't. ... or, should it? > > I understand the ground loop and the spin being two entirely different things, > the former being around the wheels and the latter, around the center of lift. > But both should be influenced by the mass distribution, I think. > > Sometimes I like to think about those things. Then my wife would ask: What are > you thinking about? To what I usually answer: You don't want to know, boys > think about weird things! :-) > > Cheers, > Michel > > > --- > > --- ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:52 PM PST US From: "John E. King " Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Very much Off-topic --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John E. King " Michel, I would love to see you in your horned helmet, bring it along. I'll post a picture of you setting in my Series 6 on the SportFlight web site. Just don't poke holes in my windshield. Headsets are optional? Do Not Archive. -- John King Warrenton, VA Michel Verheughe wrote: >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe > >kurt schrader wrote: > > >>Or you could bring the horned >>helmit, wear the Tutu and tell sea stories.... :-) >> >> > >Good Lord! What kind of reputation are you giving me, Kurt! I am not sure John >and Don will ever want to meet me now! :-) > >Michel > >do not archive > > > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 08:47:36 PM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Carrier landings? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader You are welcome Vic, And same to you. Thanks! BTW, I went to Army Helo school in 1970. Navy Jets in 1975. USAF C-130's school in 1977. Missed the Coast Guard, but then they only go out in bad weather... Rate of descent? Well, assuming there is no pitching deck to reach up and smite thee, 700-800 ft/min is right for most landing weights and aircraft. If the landing doesn't do it, the glamour goes out of it when you pull up to the ship's island and the Navy slaps a refueling hose on your probe, then throws a mop over it to keep the fuel spray down from the inevitable leak. Kurt S. --- Vic Jacko wrote: >> > Kurt, I am retired from the Army and I appreciate > the following comment from those who mean it, > "thank you for your service to our country" and I > say to you, "thank you for your service to our > country". > > What is the rate of descent when the aircraft "hits > the deck"? > > Vic __________________________________ http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:35 PM PST US From: RiteAngle3@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: OT --> Kitfox-List message posted by: RiteAngle3@aol.com Kurt Schrader & other vets from VN era, Thanks to all of you on this list and all over who have done their part in keeping this country free, I appreciate all your sacrifices! Drop by our booth at AirVenture will have a talk, I flew for the US Atomic Energy Commission / Sandia Corp. from 68-72, Didn't do much atomic stuff that I can talk about, but did lots and lots of testing of all sorts of "stuff" that was used in the VN theater. Many of my military pilot and ground personnel friends used lots of it at different times with good results. I flew Beech C-35, D-50, D-18; Douglas DC-3, DB-3 [Gooney Bird with bomb racks :-)] C-47; Cessna L-19, Beagle 206S, Volpaire Turbine Beech 18, and the Fairchild F-27 and a few others occasionally. Two years of testing at TTR and various undisclosed area all over the US. I'm sure you used or knew of a lot of the stuff I tested in all stages of development. At times it seemed like a joke with so many duds, then all of a sudden it worked. Thanks again for all you and the other veterans have done for us! This great United States remains free because of you. Elbie Mendenhall Captain American Airlines, retired www.riteangle.com ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 09:55:54 PM PST US From: RiteAngle3@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: X-wind was Ground Loop --> Kitfox-List message posted by: RiteAngle3@aol.com 20 knot X-wind was just too > much. When I was instructing in Oklahoma if to strong (which was often in Cessna 140's, 150's; Champs, Cubs etc.) we would just land across runway. Probably can't get by with that now! The old square pasture would still be handy at times, just land into wind. Eliminate lots of problems Elbie DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 10:34:23 PM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: X-wind was Ground Loop --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Elbie and the list, Well I got by with it once and at the suggestion of the airport manager too. During my last test flight, the winds picked up down below. I flew 2.5 hrs starting out in quiet morning skys. Two hours into the flight the airport manager called me and suggested landing on the "ultralight runway". I asked what that was. It turned out to be over some trees and a house "by not much", over the runway sideways, down a 4 foot dropoff, across a dam, miss the tree on the dam, hook left and cross the gravel road..... After an interesting low pass down the runway, I landed on the dam. My first short field landing and my first use of flaps for landing. Tested slow flight with flaps before the attempt. The manager wanted to help walk my plane back, but the KF handled the wind with no problems. I did measure the landing roll later at 235'. Good for a first attempt, I suppose. Looking to buy an old pasture some day.... Kurt S. --- RiteAngle3@aol.com wrote: > 20 knot X-wind was just too much. > When I was instructing in Oklahoma if too strong > (which was often in Cessna > 140's, 150's; Champs, Cubs etc.) we would just land > across runway. Probably can't get by with that now! > > The old square pasture would still be handy at > times, just land into wind. > Eliminate lots of problems > > Elbie > DO NOT ARCHIVE __________________________________ http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 10:49:13 PM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: OT --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader You were a busy man Elbie. Some of those planes I wish I had flown myself. Maybe not a few though... :-) I better refrain from political comment here except to say that the VN war didn't have anyone's approval but Johnson's. No chance of NVA WMD. They didn't attack the US... We weren't allowed to win. Lost up to a 100 of our guys in a single day. Can't see any comparison there to now at all, unless we elect another Johnson. Today's fight is for real and I do appreciate it from those who do their part. It is a very real sacrifice to all who serve. The list is quiet now, or should we go back to KF building/flying? Do not archive Kurt S. --- RiteAngle3@aol.com wrote: > > Kurt Schrader & other vets from VN era, > > Thanks to all of you on this list and all over who > have done their part in > keeping this country free, I appreciate all your > sacrifices! __________________________________ http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover