Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:52 PM - Re: Ground Loop (Michel Verheughe)
2. 12:59 PM - Re: Model II (Michel Verheughe)
3. 01:16 PM - Re: 582 EGT (Michel Verheughe)
4. 01:17 PM - Re: Ground Loop (David & Maria Lumgair)
5. 01:33 PM - Re: KF IV 1200 Tailwheel spring... (Steve Zakreski)
6. 02:08 PM - 582 engine oil (charles b cook)
7. 02:22 PM - Re: 582 engine oil (Peter Brookes)
8. 02:33 PM - Re: 582 EGT (Ronald K. Stevens)
9. 02:36 PM - Re: Ground Loop (Michel Verheughe)
10. 02:41 PM - Re: 582 engine oil (Michel Verheughe)
11. 04:01 PM - Re: Avid dropping out in flair (kurt schrader)
12. 04:06 PM - Re: Ground Loop (David & Maria Lumgair)
13. 04:16 PM - Re: 582 EGT (AlbertaIV@aol.com)
14. 04:24 PM - Re: 582 engine oil (AlbertaIV@aol.com)
15. 05:54 PM - Re: Ground Loop (gary)
16. 06:04 PM - CG ballast in a bag (Fox5flyer)
17. 06:28 PM - Re: 582 engine oil (Jim Burke)
18. 06:44 PM - Re: Ground Loop (Clem Nichols)
19. 07:28 PM - Re: 582 EGT (Bruce Harrington)
20. 08:51 PM - Re: Ground Loop (Steve Cooper)
21. 09:17 PM - Re: Avid dropping out in flair (Steve Cooper)
22. 09:26 PM - Re: CG ballast in a bag (kurt schrader)
23. 09:49 PM - Re: Ground Loop (kurt schrader)
24. 10:03 PM - Re: Ground Loop (kurt schrader)
25. 10:56 PM - Re: Avid dropping out in flair (jimshumaker)
26. 11:25 PM - Re: Avid dropping out in flair (kurt schrader)
27. 11:57 PM - Re: Avid dropping out in flair (Steve Cooper)
Message 1
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Reading some "pre-New York" stuff. Sorry for the delay. (I am on too many
lists! :-)
Scott McClintock wrote:
> Nothing, just kept going right, now sliding, sliding
Thanks for the story, Scott. As a "will-do" ground-looper, I'd like to read as
much as possible to be prepared, if it that is possible at all.
Just one question: When you felt the yaw was uncontrollable due to low rudder
authority, did you try to brake slightly on the pedal in the opposite direction
of the yaw? I find myself sometimes, at relatively low speed, applying slight
brake to control direction. Could that be used to prevent a ground loop?
Cheers,
Michel
Message 2
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Dee Young wrote:
> Michel, I have an engine that is about the same weight as the Jabiru 2200.
Thanks Dee. Jabiru advertises as not being much heavier than the 582 so I may
not need to do any modification. I was mostly interested to know how a rather
nose heavy Kitfox (Avid, in this case, though) was behaving so that I would
recognize the signs should it happen at all.
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 3
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
AlbertaIV@aol.com wrote:
> At 5K RPM, you are running on the mid range jet not the main jet
Good Lord! I think I misread my Bing documentation, then! I'll have to read it
again. I found so much on the internet, then you guys (especially Torgeir) has
sent me so much that I got mixed up.
In your opinion, Don, what would then be the correct setting of the mid range
jet? At which RPM should the mixture be the leanest?
> When you decend with a 582, you must reduce power or the EGT's will peak.
> This is one of those little things you must do when operating a 582.
Yes, this is something I found out too. I try then to avoid slack descents.
What I do now is to keep altitude, then pull the throttle to idle and go down
to whatever speed I find convenient, disregarding the vertical speed. I even
side-slip if it need it. In other words, you won't see me on a 3 degrees ILS
glide slope. :-)
Another thing is thermal lift. In such a situation the glider pilot will gladly
climb; he was looking for it! But the motorized pilot, especially in controlled
airspace, will try to keep its altitude, push the nose down and reduce RPM.
Trying then to avoid the "hot-spot" I find myself doing a lot of throttle work
on a sunny afternoon under the cumulus. But I guess this is where the fun of
flying is; not a moment of boredom! :-)
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 4
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "David & Maria Lumgair" <dlummy@visi.net>
I know this was dirested at Scott but I have to put my 2cents in - braking
when about to loop is a make or break thing. No PUN intended. If you touch
the brakes once the tailwheel (technically the CG) is outside the main gear
you actually make the loop worse. Of course if you happen to be flash
lightening and tap it before it's out it might save your &
%! My personal
policy - NO BRAKES! I have ridden through a ground loop with a friend in
his RV and he hit the brake too late. The moment he did the wing hit the
ground, messed the tip up, and we came to a stop after about 200 degrees of
rotation and 2 pairs of tidy whites.
Surprisingly in the Kitfox, the wing never touched, even with the higher CG
vertically it only dropped about 6" which was surprizing as all get out.
I'm sure the left main was up off the ground but didn't look - sorry I was
busy. NO BRAKES, the mains slid sideways a little (luckily, thank you for
making strong gear Grove people) the tail wheel castered, and we ended up
positioned for back taxi - about 160 degrees. The only comment made in the
plane was, "Well, I guess that's the technique the old army pilots used to
get turned around in a hurry."
Sometimes Luck has alot to do with it though. Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michel Verheughe" <michel@online.no>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ground Loop
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
>
> Reading some "pre-New York" stuff. Sorry for the delay. (I am on too many
> lists! :-)
>
> Scott McClintock wrote:
> > Nothing, just kept going right, now sliding, sliding
>
> Thanks for the story, Scott. As a "will-do" ground-looper, I'd like to
read as
> much as possible to be prepared, if it that is possible at all.
> Just one question: When you felt the yaw was uncontrollable due to low
rudder
> authority, did you try to brake slightly on the pedal in the opposite
direction
> of the yaw? I find myself sometimes, at relatively low speed, applying
slight
> brake to control direction. Could that be used to prevent a ground loop?
>
> Cheers,
> Michel
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | KF IV 1200 Tailwheel spring... |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Steve Zakreski <szakreski@shaw.ca>
Dave
I just got back from my hanger, and I do still I have my old tail spring .
It's yours if you still need it. Email me directly with your address and
I'll send it off.
SteveZ
szakreski@shaw.ca
Calgary
Classic IV/NSI/CAP
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Steve
Zakreski
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: KF IV 1200 Tailwheel spring...
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Steve Zakreski <szakreski@shaw.ca>
Someone on the list is likely to have one after swapping theirs with a Grove
spring. Hang tight for a day or two and see what comes up. I MAY have one
at the hanger, but I think I gave it away already. Does anyone have an old
tailwheel spring lying around?
SteveZ
Classic IV
Calgary
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of David &
Maria Lumgair
Subject: Kitfox-List: KF IV 1200 Tailwheel spring...
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "David & Maria Lumgair" <dlummy@visi.net>
OH DAMN! Tailwheel spring has busted. No problem right? Call Skystar and
order a new one.. WRONG!
Apparently this isn't the first time and they are in the process of
manufacturing a new spring, they recommended modifying a J3 spring to
replace it... Anyone done it before? Help! Dave
Message 6
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: charles b cook <cookflys@juno.com>
I would like a short survey on what type of oil you 582 drivers are
using. What type to avoid?
Charles Cook
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: 582 engine oil |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Peter Brookes" <pdbrookes@blueyonder.co.uk>
I use Castrol TTS. Not the cheapest, but very good on corrosion protection
and low carbon build up!
----- Original Message -----
From: "charles b cook" <cookflys@juno.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: 582 engine oil
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: charles b cook <cookflys@juno.com>
>
>
> I would like a short survey on what type of oil you 582 drivers are
> using. What type to avoid?
> Charles Cook
>
>
Message 8
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ronald K. Stevens" <rkstevens@verizon.net>
Actually, WD-40 stands for: Water Displacement - Formula #40. Was
originally used to dry out (displace the water from) rocket (eg. missle)
electrical components.
Ron
Rick wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rick" <turboflyer@comcast.net>
>
>Most likely the 40th version...just guessing. It has a hugh list of uses.
>
>Rick
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of david
>yeamans
>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582 EGT
>
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "david yeamans" <dafox@ckt.net>
>
>Thanks Brian for the WD40 explanation. I would never have suspected that
>water or moisture was the problem. I'm sure others could be having the same
>problem also. What does the 40 mean ?
>
> David
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Brian Peck
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 12:13 AM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582 EGT
>
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Brian Peck <u2drvr@dslextreme.com>
>
> On May 13, 2004, at 8:40 PM, david yeamans wrote:
> > The suggestion was to disconnect the leads to the instrument
> > and carefully spray them with WD40. I've had the problem more than
> > once,
> > and it works everytime, and I don't know why for sure, but it does.
> >
> If WD40 is solving this problem then you are most likely getting
> moisture in the leads... the WD stands for Water Dispersant, which was
> the original intent for the product.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Brian Peck
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
David & Maria Lumgair wrote:
> I know this was dirested at Scott but I have to put my 2cents in - braking
> when about to loop is a make or break thing.
I am happy for all advice, Dave. Learning is not a limited thing. Thank you for
taking the time to answer me.
> My personal policy - NO BRAKES!
I understand. I guess when you are 60 or 90 degrees across the runway
centerline, braking is of no use, as it is better to loose the inertia in
whatever direction the plane is willing to roll.
But say, you are slowing down to 20 MPH then a sudden gust of wind picks you
from the left. You apply right pedal, more pedal - to the end. The plane is
maybe 5 to 10 degrees off the centerline. Wouldn't you then apply slightly the
right brake to force back the plane in line?
Of course, we are talking about prompt reaction in a fraction of a second. But
I have sometimes been in the situation where the "dance on the pedals" ended in
full pedal deflection. I think that my instinctive reaction then, if it wasn't
enough to keep in-line, would be to "extend" the deflection by some brake.
Should I consider that a bad "instinct?"
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: 582 engine oil |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
charles b cook wrote:
> I would like a short survey on what type of oil you 582 drivers are
> using. What type to avoid?
I use Pennzoil full synthetic, Charles, as advised by the previous owner. I
have decarbed the cylinders twice so far and it looks decent to my novice eyes.
Cheers,
Michel
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Avid dropping out in flair |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Michel,
This is my understanding of what Steve had.
This kind of "drop" feels a bit different from a
stall. You can't even get the nose up high enough to
stall the wing. It comes from the tail reaching the
end of its ability to hold the nose up as you slow
down. The wing is still flying, but the nose drops
out just like it would if you suddenly had the stick
brake off in your hand. You pitch down slamming onto
the runway not in control. More up elevator doesn't
hold the nose up.
With the CG farther back, you can raise the nose
higher and still be in contol. Then if you do a full
stall landing, the nose stays up and the plane settles
down flat, not nosing over, because the tail can still
hold the nose up.
Michel, You know what a regular landing feels like
now. Steve's would be more like being on a bike and
having the front tire suddenly fall into a foot deep
pothole. Something less than fun and not quite the
same as a stall.
Is that about it Steve?
Properly designed, you should never see this problem
if you are anywhere inside the CG range.
If you re-engine your plane Michel, you can adjust the
CG to match what you have now and it should feel the
same. Take careful weight measurements of it before
and after you change engines, and you should be able
to hit the CG in the same place with a little tail
weight or battery movement for balance.
Just to add a point of greater danger. If your CG is
too far aft, the nose will pitch up as you take off or
slow down on approach and you won't be able to stop
it. The plane will stall and there probably won't be
anything you can do to recover. Some pilots know of
the old "Saber dance" where something like this
happened in a jet. In that case, wing sweep/tip stall
had a bit to do with it too. In any case, never go
beyond the aft CG limit. That problem is worse by
far.
Kurt S.
--- Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no> wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe
> <michel@online.no>
>
> Steve Cooper wrote:
> > You really NEVER knew where in the flair the bird
> was going to drop...
>
> Thank you, Steve. I think that by "to drop" you
> meant, "to stall," didn't you?
> Were you then with the nose pointing higher than
> now?
>
> Cheers,
> Michel
>
> do not archive
__________________________________
http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/
Message 12
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "David & Maria Lumgair" <dlummy@visi.net>
> But say, you are slowing down to 20 MPH then a sudden gust of wind picks
you
> from the left. You apply right pedal, more pedal - to the end. The plane
is
> maybe 5 to 10 degrees off the centerline. Wouldn't you then apply slightly
the
> right brake to force back the plane in line?
> Of course, we are talking about prompt reaction in a fraction of a second.
But
> I have sometimes been in the situation where the "dance on the pedals"
ended in
> full pedal deflection. I think that my instinctive reaction then, if it
wasn't
> enough to keep in-line, would be to "extend" the deflection by some brake.
> Should I consider that a bad "instinct?"
NOT AT ALL - different planes handle differently - (especially kitfoxes).
It all depends what works for you - my instructor would say if you get so
far outta whack that you need brakes to keep it inline go around and try
again - but then again it may be a bad call from 20mph. Fact is if it works
use it... just be careful you aren't "outside" when you use the brakes.
Dave
Message 13
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
In a message dated 5/15/04 1:18:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time, michel@online.no
writes:
> In your opinion, Don, what would then be the correct setting of the mid
> range
> jet? At which RPM should the mixture be the leanest?
>
>
I think the theoretical answer is, mixture should be the same through all
RPM settings but, nothing is theoretical. I would keep the stock mid range
jet and needle. Change the main jet to suit the seasons and move the needle
clip if the mid range goes out. Remember, the prop pitch has an awful lot to do
with these EGT's so, jetting along might not get what you are looking for.
I even found that if I adjust my rear view mirror, my EGT's go up 26
degrees.
Don Smythe
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: 582 engine oil |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
I would like a short survey on what type of oil you 582 drivers are
using. What type to avoid?
Charles Cook
Charles,
I actually took a survey on the list about 6 or so years ago on the same
subject. I can save you some time and energy. There are as many opinions on
2 stroke oils as there are 2 stroke oils. One of our old Alaska members used
to use "whatever was on sale" and he put many hours on a 582. I personally
use the Pennzoil for air cooled engines. My engine was clean as a whistle at
150 hours and never been de-coked. I had it zero timed at 300 hours and it
didn't even need an overhaul.
Loockwood did a study on different 2 stroke oils in 582 engines. Each
engine was torn down and inspected for the best oil. Pennzoil won over all
others (even synthetic). They even have pictures on the web site that shows the
different engine parts after the test. However, it's hard to see any real
difference. The article is on the web somewhere. Search for
"lockwood/2stroke/oil/test". You might run across it.
Don Smythe
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 15
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "gary" <FlyinK@Efortress.com>
what about a little blast of power - does that increase the rudder
effectiveness if it's to the floor?
gary
----- Original Message -----
From: "David & Maria Lumgair" <dlummy@visi.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ground Loop
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "David & Maria Lumgair"
<dlummy@visi.net>
>
> > But say, you are slowing down to 20 MPH then a sudden gust of wind picks
> you
> > from the left. You apply right pedal, more pedal - to the end. The plane
> is
> > maybe 5 to 10 degrees off the centerline. Wouldn't you then apply
slightly
> the
> > right brake to force back the plane in line?
> > Of course, we are talking about prompt reaction in a fraction of a
second.
> But
> > I have sometimes been in the situation where the "dance on the pedals"
> ended in
> > full pedal deflection. I think that my instinctive reaction then, if it
> wasn't
> > enough to keep in-line, would be to "extend" the deflection by some
brake.
> > Should I consider that a bad "instinct?"
>
> NOT AT ALL - different planes handle differently - (especially kitfoxes).
> It all depends what works for you - my instructor would say if you get so
> far outta whack that you need brakes to keep it inline go around and try
> again - but then again it may be a bad call from 20mph. Fact is if it
works
> use it... just be careful you aren't "outside" when you use the brakes.
>
> Dave
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | CG ballast in a bag |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
To Kurt, Steve, Michel and others. When we find ourselves needing to move
the CG rearward for various reasons (usually heavy engine), none of us want
to add weight that doesn't do anything and we usually try to move things
like battery, elt, wing sweep, etc to compensate, but sometimes it just
isn't enough. There's one thing that I haven't seen mentioned, and that's
adding a canvas tool pouch rolled up and placed in the tail along with the
battery. Most of us carry a few tools anyway, so using them to make the
most of the CG makes sense. I have a small canvas roll-up that I keep
various tools in and placed in in the tail just behind the battery. It's
fairly dead weight so it doesn't even need to be tied down. It just lays
there right above the tailwheel bolt. The nice thing is that tools can be
added or subtracted to put the CG right where you want it. The arm is so
long that it doesn't take much to make a difference. Gaining access to them
simply requires using the fuel tester to remove a few screws on the access
cover, and it give me peace of mind just knowing that they're there if I
when I need them.
Darrel
S5
Frost tonight in NE Michigan
...snip...
> This kind of "drop" feels a bit different from a
> stall. You can't even get the nose up high enough to
> stall the wing. It comes from the tail reaching the
> end of its ability to hold the nose up as you slow
> down. The wing is still flying, but the nose drops
> out just like it would if you suddenly had the stick
> brake off in your hand. You pitch down slamming onto
> the runway not in control. More up elevator doesn't
> hold the nose up.
>
> With the CG farther back, you can raise the nose
> higher and still be in contol. Then if you do a full
> stall landing, the nose stays up and the plane settles
> down flat, not nosing over, because the tail can still
> hold the nose up.
...snip
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: 582 engine oil |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jim Burke <jeburke94je@direcway.com>
This site will give you about all the information on two stroke oil you will
need.
http://www.ultralightnews.com/features/oiltest.htm
James E. Burke
(N94JE)
-------Original Message-------
From: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582 engine oil
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
I would like a short survey on what type of oil you 582 drivers are
using. What type to avoid?
Charles Cook
Charles,
I actually took a survey on the list about 6 or so years ago on the same
subject. I can save you some time and energy. There are as many opinions
on
2 stroke oils as there are 2 stroke oils. One of our old Alaska members
used
to use "whatever was on sale" and he put many hours on a 582. I personally
use the Pennzoil for air cooled engines. My engine was clean as a whistle
at
150 hours and never been de-coked. I had it zero timed at 300 hours and it
didn't even need an overhaul.
Loockwood did a study on different 2 stroke oils in 582 engines. Each
engine was torn down and inspected for the best oil. Pennzoil won over all
others (even synthetic). They even have pictures on the web site that shows
the
different engine parts after the test. However, it's hard to see any real
difference. The article is on the web somewhere. Search for
"lockwood/2stroke/oil/test". You might run across it.
Don Smythe
DO NOT ARCHIVE
.
Message 18
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clem Nichols" <cnichols@scrtc.com>
Similar question regarding "dropping out" on landing. Would adding in some
throttle at the last moment give more elevator authority allowing the plane
to touchdown in the proper 3-point attitude?
----- Original Message -----
From: "gary" <FlyinK@efortress.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ground Loop
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "gary" <FlyinK@Efortress.com>
>
> what about a little blast of power - does that increase the rudder
> effectiveness if it's to the floor?
>
> gary
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David & Maria Lumgair" <dlummy@visi.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ground Loop
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "David & Maria Lumgair"
> <dlummy@visi.net>
> >
> > > But say, you are slowing down to 20 MPH then a sudden gust of wind
picks
> > you
> > > from the left. You apply right pedal, more pedal - to the end. The
plane
> > is
> > > maybe 5 to 10 degrees off the centerline. Wouldn't you then apply
> slightly
> > the
> > > right brake to force back the plane in line?
> > > Of course, we are talking about prompt reaction in a fraction of a
> second.
> > But
> > > I have sometimes been in the situation where the "dance on the pedals"
> > ended in
> > > full pedal deflection. I think that my instinctive reaction then, if
it
> > wasn't
> > > enough to keep in-line, would be to "extend" the deflection by some
> brake.
> > > Should I consider that a bad "instinct?"
> >
> > NOT AT ALL - different planes handle differently - (especially
kitfoxes).
> > It all depends what works for you - my instructor would say if you get
so
> > far outta whack that you need brakes to keep it inline go around and try
> > again - but then again it may be a bad call from 20mph. Fact is if it
> works
> > use it... just be careful you aren't "outside" when you use the brakes.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
>
>
Message 19
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Harrington" <aerowood@mcsi.net>
Michel and Don,
I had the Artic Sparrow mixture cintrol in N194KF, but still changed both the
main
and needle jets twice a year. Increase in size for cold air, decrease for warm
air.
I had 4 or 5 incremental sizes to choose from.
bh
> I think the theoretical answer is, mixture should be the same through all
> RPM settings but, nothing is theoretical. I would keep the stock mid range
> jet and needle. Change the main jet to suit the seasons and move the needle
> clip if the mid range goes out. Remember, the prop pitch has an awful lot to
do
> with these EGT's so, jetting along might not get what you are looking for.
> I even found that if I adjust my rear view mirror, my EGT's go up 26
> degrees.
>
> Don Smythe
Message 20
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper" <spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
Yep! But I'm here to tell you ...it is really tough to hit it just right.
Too much and your floating down the runway...too little and KERPLOP! with a
lot more inertia to get rid of. :)
Steve
As" <cnichols@scrtc.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ground Loop
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clem Nichols" <cnichols@scrtc.com>
>
> Similar question regarding "dropping out" on landing. Would adding in
some
> throttle at the last moment give more elevator authority allowing the
plane
> to touchdown in the proper 3-point attitude?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "gary" <FlyinK@efortress.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ground Loop
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "gary" <FlyinK@Efortress.com>
> >
> > what about a little blast of power - does that increase the rudder
> > effectiveness if it's to the floor?
> >
> > gary
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "David & Maria Lumgair" <dlummy@visi.net>
> > To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ground Loop
> >
> >
> > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "David & Maria Lumgair"
> > <dlummy@visi.net>
> > >
> > > > But say, you are slowing down to 20 MPH then a sudden gust of wind
> picks
> > > you
> > > > from the left. You apply right pedal, more pedal - to the end. The
> plane
> > > is
> > > > maybe 5 to 10 degrees off the centerline. Wouldn't you then apply
> > slightly
> > > the
> > > > right brake to force back the plane in line?
> > > > Of course, we are talking about prompt reaction in a fraction of a
> > second.
> > > But
> > > > I have sometimes been in the situation where the "dance on the
pedals"
> > > ended in
> > > > full pedal deflection. I think that my instinctive reaction then, if
> it
> > > wasn't
> > > > enough to keep in-line, would be to "extend" the deflection by some
> > brake.
> > > > Should I consider that a bad "instinct?"
> > >
> > > NOT AT ALL - different planes handle differently - (especially
> kitfoxes).
> > > It all depends what works for you - my instructor would say if you get
> so
> > > far outta whack that you need brakes to keep it inline go around and
try
> > > again - but then again it may be a bad call from 20mph. Fact is if it
> > works
> > > use it... just be careful you aren't "outside" when you use the
brakes.
> > >
> > > Dave
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Avid dropping out in flair |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper" <spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: "kurt schrader" <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Avid dropping out in flair
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
<smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
>
> Michel,
>
> This is my understanding of what Steve had.
>
> This kind of "drop" feels a bit different from a
> stall. You can't even get the nose up high enough to
> stall the wing. It comes from the tail reaching the
> end of its ability to hold the nose up as you slow
> down. The wing is still flying, but the nose drops
> out just like it would if you suddenly had the stick
> brake off in your hand. You pitch down slamming onto
> the runway not in control. More up elevator doesn't
> hold the nose up.
>
> With the CG farther back, you can raise the nose
> higher and still be in contol. Then if you do a full
> stall landing, the nose stays up and the plane settles
> down flat, not nosing over, because the tail can still
> hold the nose up.
>
> Michel, You know what a regular landing feels like
> now. Steve's would be more like being on a bike and
> having the front tire suddenly fall into a foot deep
> pothole. Something less than fun and not quite the
> same as a stall.
>
> Is that about it Steve?
>
> Properly designed, you should never see this problem
> if you are anywhere inside the CG range.
>
> If you re-engine your plane Michel, you can adjust the
> CG to match what you have now and it should feel the
> same. Take careful weight measurements of it before
> and after you change engines, and you should be able
> to hit the CG in the same place with a little tail
> weight or battery movement for balance.
>
> Just to add a point of greater danger. If your CG is
> too far aft, the nose will pitch up as you take off or
> slow down on approach and you won't be able to stop
> it. The plane will stall and there probably won't be
> anything you can do to recover. Some pilots know of
> the old "Saber dance" where something like this
> happened in a jet. In that case, wing sweep/tip stall
> had a bit to do with it too. In any case, never go
> beyond the aft CG limit. That problem is worse by
> far.
>
> Kurt S.
That's it exactly Kurt. You explained it with much greater technical finese
than I was able to. Very good. It WAS just like that...like the stick
breaking off in your hand and and an out of control drop of the nose until
the mains hit the ground.. All I could do was hope to God I wasn't too high.
I have a confession to make...and this is hard guys..., but I have to tell
someone. At this point...I'm scared to death of the plane. Frankly, it was
SO bad that I'm shocked that I didn't destry the plane and kill myself. Yes,
I added the shot bag and forced myself to test fly her. 3 takeoffs and
landings since I changed CG. White knucklers all. I have refrained from
flying the plane if there is any wind at all. Although, the last time I flew
I landed in a quartering wind of 12 mph or so and that went fine. I have to
get over this feeling. I love to fly and I love the plane...it flys great
now...but I'm still pretty scared. Maybe by talking about this will help- I
don't know. I've got to get over it. I've just had WAY too many issues to
deal with ...a brand new plane built around a Rotax 2-stroke-ten hours later
an engine swap for the Jabiru. The CG Issue. Did I tell you guys that on my
origional; solo flight with the 2-stroke I had a fuel starvation problem and
almost bought it? I don't know...maybe somebody is trying to tell me
something. Have any of you guys felt like this. I've embarassed myself...oh
well. It's been two weeks since I've flown...I'm going to try to go tomorrow
morning if it's not more than a light breeze. Sorry to run on so...
Steve
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: CG ballast in a bag |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
This is really great Darrel. :-)
Of course, if these were certified aircraft, the tools
would probably all be "required" for flight as part of
the aircraft, given their W&B effect. We can adjust
to our needs. Yea! But everyone needs to be careful
of 3 things:
1. On some models, all tools must be fastened down
securily so that there is no chance of any coming
loose and jamming the flight controls. Your elevator
control horn or trim mechanism may be close and can be
jammed on takeoff, if they bounced wrong on a grassy
runway, in flight doing stalls/spins , etc. Less
risky, but they could wear down a rudder cable too if
they can get to them. This risk may change per model
design, but my 5 is in the high risk category IMHO.
If you can reach in and touch your flight controls and
tools thru the same hatch - high risk.
I had a friend who thought his battery didn't need to
be fastened down because it was so heavy. It turned
over starting a fire and acid spill damage too. There
is no "dead weight" in flight if it can move.
In 50% of military accidents, a tool was found where
it didn't belong. Often a flashlight.
2. Work them into your W&B to see how much weight you
can tollerate back there. Only a pound or two change
that far aft can make a big difference for some.
3. I suppose the canvas rollup could hold water and
corrode the tubes, if water can get to it. It can on
mine. I am thinking Tupperware. :-) Yes, I have 2
drains there....stomp, stomp... ;-)
I am going to take a look at mine and see if I can use
this, when it becomes advantageous. When I have
nothing in the baggage compt, I am near the fwd CG
limit. An inch back on the CG would be really nice
then. Maybe an extra qt of oil too? I have already
started my tool collection.
I once flew a helicopter type with 2 battery
compartments and only one battery. You moved the
battery to adjust the CG per flight. One pilot -
battery fwd. 2 pilots - battery aft. The battery
weighed 82 lbs! It was a lot easier to find someone
who wanted to go flying.
Kurt S.
--- Fox5flyer <morid@northland.lib.mi.us> wrote:
> .........
> There's one thing that I haven't seen
> mentioned, and that's
> adding a canvas tool pouch rolled up and placed in
> the tail along with the
> battery. Most of us carry a few tools anyway, so
> using them to make the
> most of the CG makes sense. I have a small canvas
> roll-up that I keep
> various tools in and placed in in the tail just
> behind the battery.
> It's fairly dead weight so it doesn't even need to
be
> tied down. It just lays
> there right above the tailwheel bolt. The nice
> thing is that tools can be
> added or subtracted to put the CG right where you
> want it. The arm is so
> long that it doesn't take much to make a difference.
> Gaining access to them
> simply requires using the fuel tester to remove a
> few screws on the access
> cover, and it give me peace of mind just knowing
> that they're there if I when I need them.
> Darrel
> S5
> Frost tonight in NE Michigan
__________________________________
http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/
Message 23
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
I know on mine when I use a FWD CG, it will pitch up a
lot with power. At full power - trim in the middle.
No power requires full nose up trim. A go-around
keeps you busy for a moment pushing hard and trimming.
But so far in testing, I have enough elevator on mine
for landing and go-around. Steve was beyond his
control range IMHO.
FYI This is not confined to KF's. Even in the Boeing
767 I sometimes have to add a burst of power to stop
the descent. This happens in places like Denver when
a crosswind makes the flair ineffective. You flair
and it is as if no lift changed. Crunch. A jab of
power does it, but it is tricky like Steve says.
If you are hand flying, you can feel people walking
around even in a 400,000 lb AC.
Kurt S.
--- Steve Cooper <spdrflyr@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Yep! But I'm here to tell you ...it is really tough
> to hit it just right.
> Too much and your floating down the runway...too
> little and KERPLOP! with a lot more inertia to get
> rid of. :)
>
> Steve
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clem Nichols"
> >
> Similar question regarding "dropping out" on
> landing. Would adding in
> some throttle at the last moment give more elevator
> authority allowing the plane to touchdown in the
> proper 3-point attitude?
__________________________________
http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/
Message 24
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
--- gary <FlyinK@efortress.com> wrote:
>
> what about a little blast of power - does that
> increase the rudder effectiveness if it's to the
> floor?
>
> gary
The perfect answer? That depends.... ;-) Really,
grass or hard surface? On mine on grass it may help.
In the KF IV I got checked out on, the P factor or
torque could really save you or get you in bigger
trouble depending on which way your were turning. Was
way too risky on pavement IMHO for that plane. But
then the instructor I flew with could do it in his
sleep.
I liked the idea someone brought up a while back. The
adverse yaw of the flapperons works well and pretty
naturally. Gust from the left? Left yaw? Left wing
rising? Left stick brings that wing down and yaws
right. Same to the other side. Use lots of stick
when slow on the ground.
Credit to the origional author.
Kurt S.
__________________________________
http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Avid dropping out in flair |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jimshumaker" <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net>
Very well stated Kurt.
Jim Shumaker
----- Original Message -----
From: "kurt schrader" <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Avid dropping out in flair
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
<smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
>
> Michel,
>
> This is my understanding of what Steve had.
>
> This kind of "drop" feels a bit different from a
> stall. You can't even get the nose up high enough to
> stall the wing. It comes from the tail reaching the
> end of its ability to hold the nose up as you slow
> down. The wing is still flying, but the nose drops
> out just like it would if you suddenly had the stick
> brake off in your hand. You pitch down slamming onto
> the runway not in control. More up elevator doesn't
> hold the nose up.
>
> With the CG farther back, you can raise the nose
> higher and still be in contol. Then if you do a full
> stall landing, the nose stays up and the plane settles
> down flat, not nosing over, because the tail can still
> hold the nose up.
>
> Michel, You know what a regular landing feels like
> now. Steve's would be more like being on a bike and
> having the front tire suddenly fall into a foot deep
> pothole. Something less than fun and not quite the
> same as a stall.
>
> Is that about it Steve?
>
> Properly designed, you should never see this problem
> if you are anywhere inside the CG range.
>
> If you re-engine your plane Michel, you can adjust the
> CG to match what you have now and it should feel the
> same. Take careful weight measurements of it before
> and after you change engines, and you should be able
> to hit the CG in the same place with a little tail
> weight or battery movement for balance.
>
> Just to add a point of greater danger. If your CG is
> too far aft, the nose will pitch up as you take off or
> slow down on approach and you won't be able to stop
> it. The plane will stall and there probably won't be
> anything you can do to recover. Some pilots know of
> the old "Saber dance" where something like this
> happened in a jet. In that case, wing sweep/tip stall
> had a bit to do with it too. In any case, never go
> beyond the aft CG limit. That problem is worse by
> far.
>
> Kurt S.
>
> --- Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no> wrote:
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe
> > <michel@online.no>
> >
> > Steve Cooper wrote:
> > > You really NEVER knew where in the flair the bird
> > was going to drop...
> >
> > Thank you, Steve. I think that by "to drop" you
> > meant, "to stall," didn't you?
> > Were you then with the nose pointing higher than
> > now?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Michel
> >
> > do not archive
>
>
> __________________________________
> http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Avid dropping out in flair |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Steve,
I think you described test flying pretty well for all
of us. I bet most pilots are "brain frozen" on the
first flight when you don't know what will happen. I
was like that on my first ground engine run! And
every time you make a change, it is another first
flight, at least for me. I'll be like that as soon as
I finish these changes too.
After some heavy thought, I decided to take my
tailwheel instructor up on his offer to take my KF up
on its maiden flight. He was just less brain frozen
and more experienced than me. Pride aside, I figured
he presented the least risk to my plane. He has flown
a number of first flights and I can't say enough good
about him. So far I am 6 years of building and no
broken bones ahead.
One thing about this list is that people here have
taken the risk of embarrassment and backlash second to
helping others be safe. I think people like Don S.
and Steve Z. have lead the pac keeping me safe, and
maybe others as well. I stay up nights here just
trying to pay something back.
I think you make a good example for setting up all
your first flights to be in the middle of the CG and
speed range until you know what it will do. Then work
toward either end of speed and CG limits in your test
plan. When something isn't right, fix it before the
next flight. Control the risk before it controls you.
I am sorry I didn't understand how serious your risk
was at first, but I finally figured it out. That is
why I could eventually describe it correctly.
Everyone should know that the CG position can make
that BIG a difference to your risk, and the FWD CG
isn't as bad as aft. Your's was the better problem
Steve. Everyone, know your CG! Stay in the limits
you establish from testing. You may not be able to
fly to all the factory limits, CG or otherwise. Don't
assume you can.
Try to test in small steps too. Test to your
confidence level before moving on to the next level.
Grnd tests, taxi tests, then flight test.
IMHO, That is what you need to do Steve. Test to
"your" confidence level in small steps. Learn to
wheel land too. Yours would probably have done that
without the drop outs, if you kept more speed. It is
the full stall landing attempts that got you and you
didn't seem to allow for the wheel landing option,
IMHO. And I mean humble. I don't wheel land yet
either. :-(
I suggest that you take it up and do slow flying and
stalls with your new CG until you do them yawning. It
should actually stall now and not just drop the nose,
so expect that. Then do landings until they don't
scare you at all too. If something is not right, fix
it. Only after that, go on to other things.
Kurt S.
--- Steve Cooper <spdrflyr@earthlink.net> wrote:
........
> That's it exactly Kurt.
........
> I have a confession to make...and this is hard
> guys..., but I have to tell someone. At this point
> I'm scared to death of the plane. Have any of you
> guys felt like this?
.........
> I've embarassed myself...oh
> well. It's been two weeks since I've flown...I'm
> going to try to go tomorrow morning if it's not more
> than a light breeze. Sorry to run on so...
>
> Steve
__________________________________
http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Avid dropping out in flair |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper" <spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
Kurt, your suggestion about CG range in the middle for initial testing seems
so obvious to me now. I guess I just thought that the CG range meant the
plane was safe to fly if the CG is anywhere withen this range...I guess not!
I sure need a good flying day tomorrow. I'll let you guys know how it goes.
It's been said many times before , but I'll echo the sentaments again...this
list is great and I thank you one an all for your gracious assistance. I
hope my experiences are of some small benefeit to others.
Steve Cooper
----- Original Message -----
From: "kurt schrader" <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Avid dropping out in flair
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
<smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
>
> Steve,
>
> I think you described test flying pretty well for all
> of us. I bet most pilots are "brain frozen" on the
> first flight when you don't know what will happen. I
> was like that on my first ground engine run! And
> every time you make a change, it is another first
> flight, at least for me. I'll be like that as soon as
> I finish these changes too.
>
> After some heavy thought, I decided to take my
> tailwheel instructor up on his offer to take my KF up
> on its maiden flight. He was just less brain frozen
> and more experienced than me. Pride aside, I figured
> he presented the least risk to my plane. He has flown
> a number of first flights and I can't say enough good
> about him. So far I am 6 years of building and no
> broken bones ahead.
>
> One thing about this list is that people here have
> taken the risk of embarrassment and backlash second to
> helping others be safe. I think people like Don S.
> and Steve Z. have lead the pac keeping me safe, and
> maybe others as well. I stay up nights here just
> trying to pay something back.
>
> I think you make a good example for setting up all
> your first flights to be in the middle of the CG and
> speed range until you know what it will do. Then work
> toward either end of speed and CG limits in your test
> plan. When something isn't right, fix it before the
> next flight. Control the risk before it controls you.
>
> I am sorry I didn't understand how serious your risk
> was at first, but I finally figured it out. That is
> why I could eventually describe it correctly.
>
> Everyone should know that the CG position can make
> that BIG a difference to your risk, and the FWD CG
> isn't as bad as aft. Your's was the better problem
> Steve. Everyone, know your CG! Stay in the limits
> you establish from testing. You may not be able to
> fly to all the factory limits, CG or otherwise. Don't
> assume you can.
>
> Try to test in small steps too. Test to your
> confidence level before moving on to the next level.
> Grnd tests, taxi tests, then flight test.
>
> IMHO, That is what you need to do Steve. Test to
> "your" confidence level in small steps. Learn to
> wheel land too. Yours would probably have done that
> without the drop outs, if you kept more speed. It is
> the full stall landing attempts that got you and you
> didn't seem to allow for the wheel landing option,
> IMHO. And I mean humble. I don't wheel land yet
> either. :-(
>
> I suggest that you take it up and do slow flying and
> stalls with your new CG until you do them yawning. It
> should actually stall now and not just drop the nose,
> so expect that. Then do landings until they don't
> scare you at all too. If something is not right, fix
> it. Only after that, go on to other things.
>
> Kurt S.
>
> --- Steve Cooper <spdrflyr@earthlink.net> wrote:
> ........
> > That's it exactly Kurt.
> ........
> > I have a confession to make...and this is hard
> > guys..., but I have to tell someone. At this point
> > I'm scared to death of the plane. Have any of you
> > guys felt like this?
> .........
> > I've embarassed myself...oh
> > well. It's been two weeks since I've flown...I'm
> > going to try to go tomorrow morning if it's not more
>
> > than a light breeze. Sorry to run on so...
> >
> > Steve
>
>
> __________________________________
> http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/
>
>
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