---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 05/17/04: 47 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:08 AM - Re: 582 engine oil (r.thomas@za.pwc.com) 2. 02:37 AM - crash (broschart) 3. 03:34 AM - Re: How much toe-in is too much? (Fox5flyer) 4. 03:43 AM - Fw: How much toe-in is too much? (Fox5flyer) 5. 04:06 AM - Fuel staining (Bruce Lina) 6. 06:08 AM - Re: Fuel staining (flier) 7. 07:21 AM - FW: Avid Fly In (Don Pearsall) 8. 07:43 AM - Re: Fuel staining (jeff.hays@aselia.com) 9. 07:54 AM - Re: How much toe-in is too much? (Ella Palamarek) 10. 08:36 AM - Re: Fuel staining (Lyle Persels) 11. 08:57 AM - Re: How much toe-in is too much? (Randy Daughenbaugh) 12. 09:50 AM - Re: Ground Loop (Scott McClintock) 13. 09:56 AM - Re: How much toe-in is too much? (Fox5flyer) 14. 09:56 AM - Re: Ground Loop (Scott McClintock) 15. 09:59 AM - Re: Fuel staining (Fox5flyer) 16. 10:22 AM - Re: Fuel staining (kurt schrader) 17. 10:58 AM - Re: How much toe-in is too much? (kurt schrader) 18. 11:03 AM - Slipping (AlbertaIV@aol.com) 19. 11:04 AM - Re: Fuel staining (kerrjohna@comcast.net) 20. 11:14 AM - Re: Fuel staining (flier) 21. 11:19 AM - Re: Fuel staining (flier) 22. 11:43 AM - Re: Slipping (Clifford Begnaud) 23. 11:50 AM - Re: Slipping () 24. 11:53 AM - Re: Slipping (Steve Cooper) 25. 12:05 PM - Re: How much toe-in is too much? (Randy Daughenbaugh) 26. 12:05 PM - Re: How much toe-in is too much? (Randy Daughenbaugh) 27. 01:23 PM - Re: Slipping (Paul Seehafer) 28. 01:51 PM - Re: Slipping (kerrjohna@comcast.net) 29. 01:54 PM - Re: Slipping (Gary Algate) 30. 02:00 PM - Re: Slipping (VFT@aol.com) 31. 02:18 PM - Re: Slipping (jeff.hays@aselia.com) 32. 03:38 PM - Fw: gasoline (dwight purdy) 33. 04:16 PM - Re: Fuel staining (KITFOXPILOT@att.net) 34. 05:22 PM - Re: Fuel staining (John E. King) 35. 06:09 PM - Re: Ground Loop (John Larsen) 36. 06:10 PM - Re: Slipping (Gill Levesque) 37. 06:18 PM - fuel stains (Allan Mantell) 38. 07:06 PM - Re: How much toe-in is too much? (Ted Palamarek) 39. 07:19 PM - Re: Fuel staining (Bob Unternaehrer) 40. 07:33 PM - Re: Fuel staining (Bob Unternaehrer) 41. 07:39 PM - Re: How much toe-in is too much? (Bob Unternaehrer) 42. 08:14 PM - Re: Slipping (jareds) 43. 08:42 PM - Re: Slipping (david yeamans) 44. 09:07 PM - Re: Slipping (JMCBEAN) 45. 09:21 PM - Re: Slipping totally agree!!! (Aerobatics@aol.com) 46. 10:13 PM - Re: How much toe-in is too much? (jimshumaker) 47. 10:20 PM - Re: Slipping (jareds) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:08:53 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582 engine oil From: r.thomas@za.pwc.com 17/05/2004 08:05:46, Serialize complete at 17/05/2004 08:05:46 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: r.thomas@za.pwc.com Hi Charles Not a good thread to start. Wars have begun over oil ;-) I would imagine that you will receive many varied responses to this topic. It is very much a personal choice. The first thing that I will note that in the time I have been flying 582's and 503's, I am not aware of any person having had engine outs or damage from using a certain brand of 2 stroke. My personal choice is to use a good mineral based oil. One of the reasons is that many of the synthetics are hygroscopic (can absorb water) and living at the coast I don't want the left over oil in my crankcase to have any humidity in it. The downside is that with mineral oils one needs to decoke more often, but with synthetic oils costing more, it is in fact cheaper to pay for more decokes vs the increase cost in the synthetics. With this in mind, I looked for the best mineral oil that was know to produce the lowest ash. I selected Castrol Super outboard plus. Have used it for almost 1000 hours now, with no problems. Regards Roger The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:37:49 AM PST US From: broschart Subject: Kitfox-List: crash --> Kitfox-List message posted by: broschart here is a ultra light crash from the local news paper, may be of intrest to some one Have a good day - Charlie LASCO - Theodore Covert's first flight in his new ultralight aircraft almost became his last Sunday when the single-engine Buccaneer SX amphibious plane crashed into the Hudson River near the Glasco dock around 3:30 p.m. Covert, 59, of 179 Hudson St., Glasco, said he was about 50 feet above the river coming in for a landing when he was momentarily distracted by some people waving from the dock, causing him to ease off the throttle and sending the small aircraft into a stall. "It was my fault," said the former Saugerties High School shop teacher who has logged about 110 hours of flying time on conventional aircraft, but had never flown an ultralight. "I basically screwed up coming in for a landing, but at that point I was too low to recover." Fred Delmonte of Saugerties, who was fishing for stripped bass when Covert's plane flew overhead, said the crash was sudden. "He took off from the dock and flew around for a little bit, then the engine sputtered and the nose started to go do wn," said Delmonte. "Then he must have juiced it again because it just jumped nose first into the water." Covert said that he had to act quickly to get out of his harness and exit the submerged plane. "I had my eyes open the whole way down, except right when I hit the water because I figured I was going to hit the windshield," said Covert. "When I felt the plane stop moving I opened my eyes and the water was rushing in. I didn't take a real deep breath (before the impact) so I had to get the hell out of there as quick as possible." Delmonte motored over to the downed plane and was preparing to jump into the water when Covert came to the surface. "I had just taken out my wallet and taken off one shoe when he popped up right in front of the boat," said Delmonte. "Thank God, because I really didn't want to go in that water." Delmonte pulled Covert from the river then tied a line to the plane which was floating upside down a few hundred yards offshore in about 20 feet of water. Delmonte towed the aircraft to shore where Covert's sons, Dennis and Zach, were waiting to secure it to the bank. The ultralight was later removed from the river by Seatow. According to Theodore Covert, the aircraft was heavily damaged, but he hoped that the engine and some other parts could be salvaged. Covert was taken by Mobile Life Ambulance to Benedictine Hospital where he was treated for minor cuts and bruises. "Oh boy, I ache all over, but I'm OK," Covert of his injuries by telephone Sunday night. "I expect I'll be back flying sometime soon." State police on Sunday night said they and Federal Aviation Administration inspectors were continuing investigation into the crash. State police were assisted at the scene by the Glasco and Ulster Hose fire departments, Saugerties Town Police and the Ulster County Sheriff's Office. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:34:16 AM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: How much toe-in is too much? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" Randy, my opinion is that ANY toe-in is significant, however if only a small amount it can probably be lived with. If it were me I'd probably try to eliminate it all with a 4 foot cheater bar. Not real difficult. Darrel > I got a laser level with a magnet base and stuck it on my disc brake rotors. > By measuring the distance close to the wheels and out a good distance, I > determined that I have about 1.1 degrees of toe-in on each wheel - in other > words it is a total of 2.2 degrees, but seems to be evenly split between the > two wheels measuring from a centerline on the fuselage. This way of > measuring seems to be pretty accurate, but I am going to try some variations > on this method to see how consistent it is. > > I am in the camp that prefers a neutral or slight toe-out alignment. But > after following the arguments a while back, I can't remember what a > significant amount of toe-in is. Is the 2.2 degrees significant? > > Thanks, > Randy - series 5/7 getting' close! N10NH ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:43:13 AM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Fw: Kitfox-List: How much toe-in is too much? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" I guess I should have first asked if you have spring or bungee gear. If spring gear I'd call Grove for their advice. Darrel > Randy, my opinion is that ANY toe-in is significant, however if only a small > amount it can probably be lived with. If it were me I'd probably try to > eliminate it all with a 4 foot cheater bar. Not real difficult. > Darrel > > > I got a laser level with a magnet base and stuck it on my disc brake > rotors. > > By measuring the distance close to the wheels and out a good distance, I > > determined that I have about 1.1 degrees of toe-in on each wheel - in > other > > words it is a total of 2.2 degrees, but seems to be evenly split between > the > > two wheels measuring from a centerline on the fuselage. This way of > > measuring seems to be pretty accurate, but I am going to try some > variations > > on this method to see how consistent it is. > > > > I am in the camp that prefers a neutral or slight toe-out alignment. But > > after following the arguments a while back, I can't remember what a > > significant amount of toe-in is. Is the 2.2 degrees significant? > > > > Thanks, > > Randy - series 5/7 getting' close! N10NH > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:06:50 AM PST US From: "Bruce Lina" Subject: Kitfox-List: Fuel staining 1.9 DATE_IN_FUTURE_03_06 Date: is 3 to 6 hours after Received: date --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Lina" Anyone have a special conconction to remove 100LL avgas fuel staining from polyfibers' polytone paint ? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Pearsall" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Annual Inspection > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall" > > There is one at http://www.sportflight.com/kfb/. Just scroll down the page > and click on Annual Inspection Form. It is pretty complete and was > contributed by Don Lorentzen. It is in HTML, but you can import it into Word > or other word processor for modification. > > Don Pearsall > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:08:43 AM PST US From: "flier" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel staining --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "flier" If it's the yellow scum stain on the surface of the PolyTone I've found straight 'Simple Green' works good. Spray it on, let it set for a bit to loosen the stuff then wipe it off. Usually takes some elbow grease. --- Original Message --- From: "Bruce Lina" Subject: Kitfox-List: Fuel staining >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Lina" > >Anyone have a special conconction to remove 100LL avgas fuel staining from >polyfibers' polytone paint ? ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:21:48 AM PST US From: "Don Pearsall" Subject: Kitfox-List: FW: Avid Fly In --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall" From: Herb Fuhrer, Structural Design [mailto:herb@structuraldesigninc.org] Subject: Avid Fly In Hello Don, I tried posting to the list - certain the problem is on my end - anyway, there's an Avid get together this weekend in Taylorsville, NC. Details on Marks site. http://www.avidflyeraircraft.com/flyin.php Maybe Sid or one of the other guys that monitors both lists already made the Foxers aware, but I didn't catch it if someone did. Herb ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:43:47 AM PST US From: "jeff.hays@aselia.com" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel staining --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff.hays@aselia.com" How about how to get rid of the blue dye stains from 100LL???? My fuel drains weep a little from time to time, and the white aerothane under my wings has blue stains, and I can't get that stuff out for anything. Carefull with simple green, it likes LOTS of water afterwards for rinse. Otherwise it spends all it's time oxidizing stuff (aluminum, etc.). There's an US Airforce doc out there somewhere (on the web) stating all the bad things it does to aluminum. Original Message: ----------------- From: flier FLIER@sbcglobal.net Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel staining --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "flier" If it's the yellow scum stain on the surface of the PolyTone I've found straight 'Simple Green' works good. Spray it on, let it set for a bit to loosen the stuff then wipe it off. Usually takes some elbow grease. --- Original Message --- From: "Bruce Lina" Subject: Kitfox-List: Fuel staining >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Lina" > >Anyone have a special conconction to remove 100LL avgas fuel staining from >polyfibers' polytone paint ? ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:54:36 AM PST US From: "Ella Palamarek" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: How much toe-in is too much? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ella Palamarek" Not sure how many of you get the EAA Sport Aviation magazine --- but starting on page 114 there is an excellent article on how to measure toe-in/toe-out using a very simple method that seems fool proof. Ted Palamarek <<<>>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: How much toe-in is too much? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" Randy, my opinion is that ANY toe-in is significant, however if only a small amount it can probably be lived with. If it were me I'd probably try to eliminate it all with a 4 foot cheater bar. Not real difficult. Darrel > I got a laser level with a magnet base and stuck it on my disc brake rotors. > By measuring the distance close to the wheels and out a good distance, I > determined that I have about 1.1 degrees of toe-in on each wheel - in other > words it is a total of 2.2 degrees, but seems to be evenly split between the > two wheels measuring from a centerline on the fuselage. This way of > measuring seems to be pretty accurate, but I am going to try some variations > on this method to see how consistent it is. > > I am in the camp that prefers a neutral or slight toe-out alignment. But > after following the arguments a while back, I can't remember what a > significant amount of toe-in is. Is the 2.2 degrees significant? > > Thanks, > Randy - series 5/7 getting' close! N10NH ============== Contributions other ============== ============== http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list ============== ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:36:14 AM PST US From: Lyle Persels Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel staining --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lyle Persels I don't know if others would recommend this, but I've had excellent results with a very mild automotive rubbing compound. I suppose, though, that over time repeated use might wear away a little more of the surface than you'd like. Lyle Persels Bruce Lina wrote: >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Lina" > >Anyone have a special conconction to remove 100LL avgas fuel staining from >polyfibers' polytone paint ? >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Don Pearsall" >To: >Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Annual Inspection > > > > >>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall" >> >> > > > >>There is one at http://www.sportflight.com/kfb/. Just scroll down the page >>and click on Annual Inspection Form. It is pretty complete and was >>contributed by Don Lorentzen. It is in HTML, but you can import it into >> >> >Word > > >>or other word processor for modification. >> >>Don Pearsall >> >> >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:57:14 AM PST US From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: How much toe-in is too much? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Thanks Ted. - What issue is this? If June, I guess I have to watch my mail box. The Pony Express is slow here in South Dakota. Also, Thanks to: Lowell - I agree. I don't want to bend my plane right after it is built! Marc - Good Point! I will load some weight into it and measure again - in three point and up like wheel landing. Kurt - Neat! It didn't occur to me that such calculations could be done. Puts a new perspective on it! Darrel - I should have mentioned spring gear. I will do some more measurements and then may well be in the market for some shims. Thanks guys! Randy - Trying to straighten up and roll right! . -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ella Palamarek Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: How much toe-in is too much? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ella Palamarek" Not sure how many of you get the EAA Sport Aviation magazine --- but starting on page 114 there is an excellent article on how to measure toe-in/toe-out using a very simple method that seems fool proof. Ted Palamarek <<<>>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: How much toe-in is too much? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" Randy, my opinion is that ANY toe-in is significant, however if only a small amount it can probably be lived with. If it were me I'd probably try to eliminate it all with a 4 foot cheater bar. Not real difficult. Darrel > I got a laser level with a magnet base and stuck it on my disc brake rotors. > By measuring the distance close to the wheels and out a good distance, I > determined that I have about 1.1 degrees of toe-in on each wheel - in other > words it is a total of 2.2 degrees, but seems to be evenly split between the > two wheels measuring from a centerline on the fuselage. This way of > measuring seems to be pretty accurate, but I am going to try some variations > on this method to see how consistent it is. > > I am in the camp that prefers a neutral or slight toe-out alignment. But > after following the arguments a while back, I can't remember what a > significant amount of toe-in is. Is the 2.2 degrees significant? > > Thanks, > Randy - series 5/7 getting' close! N10NH ============== Contributions other ============== ============== http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list ============== ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:55 AM PST US From: Scott McClintock Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ground Loop --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Scott McClintock Michel, The whole process happened so quickly. One moment I was happily rolling down the centerline, next I was swung perpendicular to it! I have gone over (and over) this incident in my mind many times. It's alot like being an "armchair quarterback". It's easy to second guess and say "I should have or could have done.......", but when it comes down to brass tacks, it happened, nobody was hurt, I didn't have to fill out an incident report and it shouldn't take much $$ to repair. To be sure, I will be much more aware of what the winds are doing and will seal my rudder gap. I will practice my landings now at a lower speed, the goal now to stall just at touch down. I already ordered my vortex generators. The "Arctic Fox" goes into the hangar this week. I'll let you all know how it goes and if I find anything bent or broken. Scott in Nome P.S. My tailwheel instructor taught me to "leave those brakes alone" as they often cause or compound problems during landing. Michel Verheughe wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe > > Reading some "pre-New York" stuff. Sorry for the delay. (I am on too many > lists! :-) > > Scott McClintock wrote: > > Nothing, just kept going right, now sliding, sliding > > Thanks for the story, Scott. As a "will-do" ground-looper, I'd like to read as > much as possible to be prepared, if it that is possible at all. > Just one question: When you felt the yaw was uncontrollable due to low rudder > authority, did you try to brake slightly on the pedal in the opposite direction > of the yaw? I find myself sometimes, at relatively low speed, applying slight > brake to control direction. Could that be used to prevent a ground loop? > > Cheers, > Michel > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:56:18 AM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: How much toe-in is too much? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" A thought just occurred to me (can be dangerous). Can that spring gear be reversed? Darrel > Thanks Ted. - What issue is this? If June, I guess I have to watch my mail > box. The Pony Express is slow here in South Dakota. > > Also, Thanks to: Lowell - I agree. I don't want to bend my plane right > after it is built! > Marc - Good Point! I will load some weight into it and measure again - in > three point and up like wheel landing. > Kurt - Neat! It didn't occur to me that such calculations could be done. > Puts a new perspective on it! > Darrel - I should have mentioned spring gear. > > I will do some more measurements and then may well be in the market for some > shims. > > Thanks guys! > > Randy - Trying to straighten up and roll right! ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:56:50 AM PST US From: Scott McClintock Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ground Loop --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Scott McClintock Gary, I did give her a "Blast of throttle" but I was already too far into it for any effectiveness. (Why are you guys making me live this all over?) I almost had this past me. Thanks! Scott in Nome gary wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "gary" > > what about a little blast of power - does that increase the rudder > effectiveness if it's to the floor? > > gary > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David & Maria Lumgair" > To: > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ground Loop > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "David & Maria Lumgair" > > > > > > But say, you are slowing down to 20 MPH then a sudden gust of wind picks > > you > > > from the left. You apply right pedal, more pedal - to the end. The plane > > is > > > maybe 5 to 10 degrees off the centerline. Wouldn't you then apply > slightly > > the > > > right brake to force back the plane in line? > > > Of course, we are talking about prompt reaction in a fraction of a > second. > > But > > > I have sometimes been in the situation where the "dance on the pedals" > > ended in > > > full pedal deflection. I think that my instinctive reaction then, if it > > wasn't > > > enough to keep in-line, would be to "extend" the deflection by some > brake. > > > Should I consider that a bad "instinct?" > > > > NOT AT ALL - different planes handle differently - (especially kitfoxes). > > It all depends what works for you - my instructor would say if you get so > > far outta whack that you need brakes to keep it inline go around and try > > again - but then again it may be a bad call from 20mph. Fact is if it > works > > use it... just be careful you aren't "outside" when you use the brakes. > > > > Dave > > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:59:53 AM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel staining --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" I echo what Jeff said about the corrosive effects of Simple Green. It's great for cleaning various things, especially bugs, but if you don't rinse it good it'll eat up anything metal, not just aluminum. It has a hungry preference to camlocs and all anodized nuts and bolts. Darrel > > If it's the yellow scum stain on the surface of the > PolyTone I've found straight 'Simple Green' works > good. Spray it on, let it set for a bit to loosen > the stuff then wipe it off. Usually takes some elbow > grease. > > > > > >Anyone have a special conconction to remove 100LL > avgas fuel staining from > >polyfibers' polytone paint ? ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:22:39 AM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel staining --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Jeff, Thanks for the warning about Simple Green! I suppose the same is true about any of the oxidizer cleaners that someone recommended too. I have started to use the simple stuff and was considering the oxy stuff for stains, but now I know to be more careful. Seems to be true of anything that works well. If it is powerful you gotta' be careful with it. Kurt S. --- "jeff.hays@aselia.com" > > Carefull with simple green, it likes LOTS of water > afterwards for rinse. > Otherwise it spends all it's time oxidizing stuff > (aluminum, etc.). > There's an US Airforce doc out there somewhere (on > the web) stating > all the bad things it does to aluminum. __________________________________ http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/ ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:58:34 AM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: How much toe-in is too much? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Randy, My fault. I wazzz tired. I used 2.2 degrees - per side - instead of total. You would probably have all of 2 seconds before ground looping at 60. :-) Ok, not so funny, but the 1:60 rule works on a lot of things. If you multiply the radius 60 times 2 for the diameter of 120. Then times 3.1416 you get about 377. Divide by 360 degrees gives a change of 1.047. Close enough? So 1:60 works for any small degree change. One Nm/Sm/Km/mm/ft/inch change for every 60 Nm/Sm/Km/mmft/inch of radius. Or 10 of whatever for 10 degrees. Yes it to navigate or to measure approximate work of any size. Ok, so I'm nutz, but it works. Kurt S. --- Randy Daughenbaugh wrote: >> Kurt - Neat! It didn't occur to me that such > calculations could be done. > Puts a new perspective on it! __________________________________ http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/ ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:03:38 AM PST US From: AlbertaIV@aol.com Subject: Kitfox-List: Slipping --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com The Rich Man has refused to fly with me again if I ever perform another slip to landing again. He says that slipping is very very unsafe. I disagree but he is terrified of a slip. What's the opinion of any instructors. BTW, I ease into the slip with rudder and opposite flapperon (nose into the wind) while maintaining runway centerline. I maintain between 50-60 MPH during the slip. Never do I attempt a slip near stall speed. Don Smythe DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:04:27 AM PST US From: kerrjohna@comcast.net Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel staining --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kerrjohna@comcast.net the best solvent I have found is a little fuel on a cloth. no corrosion and it works > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader > > Jeff, > > Thanks for the warning about Simple Green! I suppose > the same is true about any of the oxidizer cleaners > that someone recommended too. I have started to use > the simple stuff and was considering the oxy stuff for > stains, but now I know to be more careful. Seems to > be true of anything that works well. If it is > powerful you gotta' be careful with it. > > Kurt S. > > --- "jeff.hays@aselia.com" > > > > Carefull with simple green, it likes LOTS of water > > afterwards for rinse. > > Otherwise it spends all it's time oxidizing stuff > > (aluminum, etc.). > > There's an US Airforce doc out there somewhere (on > > the web) stating > > all the bad things it does to aluminum. > > > > > __________________________________ > http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/ > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:14:18 AM PST US From: "flier" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel staining --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "flier" I've compounded the heck out of my PolyTone and never had a problem. As long as it's a reasonable coat thickness and you use mild abrasive compound. I've even used hard compound for problem areas and you have to do some rubbing to really go through the paint... --- Original Message --- From: Lyle Persels Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel staining >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lyle Persels > >I don't know if others would recommend this, but I've had excellent >results with a very mild automotive rubbing compound. I suppose, though, >that over time repeated use might wear away a little more of the surface >than you'd like. Lyle Persels > >Bruce Lina wrote: > >>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Lina" >> >>Anyone have a special conconction to remove 100LL avgas fuel staining from >>polyfibers' polytone paint ? >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Don Pearsall" >>To: >>Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Annual Inspection >> >> >> >> >>>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall" >>> >>> >> >> >> >>>There is one at http://www.sportflight.com/kfb/. Just scroll down the page >>>and click on Annual Inspection Form. It is pretty complete and was >>>contributed by Don Lorentzen. It is in HTML, but you can import it into >>> >>> >>Word >> >> >>>or other word processor for modification. >>> >>>Don Pearsall >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > >_- ====================================================== ================== Contributions any other Forums. >_- ====================================================== ================== >_- ====================================================== ================== http://www.matronics.com/subscription http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list http://www.matronics.com/archives http://www.matronics.com/photoshare list http://www.matronics.com/emaillists http://www.matronics.com/contribution >_- ====================================================== ================== > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:19:19 AM PST US From: "flier" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel staining --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "flier" It'd be hard to hurt anything spraying Simple Green on the top of the wing fabric then wiping it off. As long as any of the cleaners are rinsed well with water and don't get trapped in nooks and crannies there shouldn't be any issue. Now, I don't think I'd flush my spars with it, or use it uncut to wash the plane, but I think there's a middle ground. BTW, Poly-Fiber recommended Simple Green for fuel staining. Regards, Ted --- Original Message --- From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel staining >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" > >I echo what Jeff said about the corrosive effects of Simple Green. It's >great for cleaning various things, especially bugs, but if you don't rinse >it good it'll eat up anything metal, not just aluminum. It has a hungry >preference to camlocs and all anodized nuts and bolts. >Darrel > >> >> If it's the yellow scum stain on the surface of the >> PolyTone I've found straight 'Simple Green' works >> good. Spray it on, let it set for a bit to loosen >> the stuff then wipe it off. Usually takes some elbow >> grease. >> >> >> > >> >Anyone have a special conconction to remove 100LL >> avgas fuel staining from >> >polyfibers' polytone paint ? > > >_- ====================================================== ================== Contributions any other Forums. >_- ====================================================== ================== >_- ====================================================== ================== http://www.matronics.com/subscription http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list http://www.matronics.com/archives http://www.matronics.com/photoshare list http://www.matronics.com/emaillists http://www.matronics.com/contribution >_- ====================================================== ================== > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:43:04 AM PST US From: "Clifford Begnaud" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Slipping --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud" Don, I think it's better to slip with the down wing into the wind, nose away from wind. Go up high and do it right at stall speed to see what happens. Cliff > > The Rich Man has refused to fly with me again if I ever perform another slip > to landing again. He says that slipping is very very unsafe. I disagree but > he is terrified of a slip. What's the opinion of any instructors. > > BTW, I ease into the slip with rudder and opposite flapperon (nose into the > wind) while maintaining runway centerline. I maintain between 50-60 MPH during > the slip. Never do I attempt a slip near stall speed. > > Don Smythe > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:50:37 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Slipping --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Don, All of my old school instructors (and i've had a ton to get checked out in all the planes that i've flown) say the slip is the only way to get a plane down or back on glide slope. And in an emergency landing even though the fox has flaps you may not have that luxury!! I hardly ever use flaps and rely 100% on a slip to get me closer to glide!! I'd be curious to know if slips are advised by fox designers when full flaps are deployed? > > From: AlbertaIV@aol.com > Date: 2004/05/17 Mon PM 01:00:38 CDT > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Slipping > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:53:25 AM PST US From: "Steve Cooper" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Slipping --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper" I'm only a USUA Ultralight instructor...but I teach slips as a normal part of my program. You need to learn to do a slip in order to perform short field landings and also to clear an obstruction at the approach end of the runway. But remember, a slip is not a crab. Crabbing is simply pointing the nose of the aircraft into the wind while following a track perpendicular to the wind. You can slip the aircraft in any direction without regard to the wind. For instance, If your landing at a strip with a quartering headwind, you'll probably automatically crab the plane in order to maintain a flight path down the middle of the runway. Then you'll transition to a wing low against the wind as you crank the bird over and straighten it out for touchdown. I have power lines right across the approach end of my runway. I come in high across the power lines, then cross control the plane watching my airspeed carefully. I drop like an elevator once I've crossed the power lines, then I kick it around into a crab if I have a crosswind and so on.... Ya! slip that plane. Some people just don't like yaw...but learning to do slips is part of being a good pilot. IMHO. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Kitfox-List: Slipping > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com > > The Rich Man has refused to fly with me again if I ever perform another slip > to landing again. He says that slipping is very very unsafe. I disagree but > he is terrified of a slip. What's the opinion of any instructors. > > BTW, I ease into the slip with rudder and opposite flapperon (nose into the > wind) while maintaining runway centerline. I maintain between 50-60 MPH during > the slip. Never do I attempt a slip near stall speed. > > Don Smythe > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:05:52 PM PST US From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: How much toe-in is too much? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Kurt, With my reaction time, the 2 seconds may not even be enough. ;-) But I know I ain't gonna let you fly my plane! Anybody who goes out and PRACTICES ground loops......... Randy (actually not a bad idea - at the right speed and in the right area and wind conditions.) ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:05:52 PM PST US From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: How much toe-in is too much? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Darrel, Yes it can. I tried to get it right! Randy . -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fox5flyer Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: How much toe-in is too much? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" A thought just occurred to me (can be dangerous). Can that spring gear be reversed? Darrel > Thanks Ted. - What issue is this? If June, I guess I have to watch my mail > box. The Pony Express is slow here in South Dakota. > > Also, Thanks to: Lowell - I agree. I don't want to bend my plane right > after it is built! > Marc - Good Point! I will load some weight into it and measure again - in > three point and up like wheel landing. > Kurt - Neat! It didn't occur to me that such calculations could be done. > Puts a new perspective on it! > Darrel - I should have mentioned spring gear. > > I will do some more measurements and then may well be in the market for some > shims. > > Thanks guys! > > Randy - Trying to straighten up and roll right! ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:23:34 PM PST US From: "Paul Seehafer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Slipping --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul Seehafer" I can tell you when Dean Wilson and Dan Denney demo'd their first prototype at Oshkosh in 1983 that their tremendous slip to a very short landing is what wowed the crowd. They landed and took off in about the same distance, approximately 75 feet. Avid later on made a video of their airplanes doing some tremendous slips within 5 feet off the ground. Kitfox shows more mild slips in their Kitfox Adventure video, but they do slip. So I think it's safe to say they approved of slips with their airplanes. I learned in a J-3 cub from Hatz biplane designer John Hatz. Slips were definitely a part of my training back then. Cubs (as well as many other older aircraft) don't have flaps. I love slipping Avids and Kitfoxes. Few aircraft slip as well, or are as much fun. Paul Seehafer Central Wisconsin ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Slipping > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: > > Don, > > All of my old school instructors (and i've had a ton to get checked out in all the planes that i've flown) say the slip is the only way to get a plane down or back on glide slope. And in an emergency landing even though the fox has flaps you may not have that luxury!! I hardly ever use flaps and rely 100% on a slip to get me closer to glide!! > > I'd be curious to know if slips are advised by fox designers when full flaps are deployed? > > > > > From: AlbertaIV@aol.com > > Date: 2004/05/17 Mon PM 01:00:38 CDT > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Kitfox-List: Slipping > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 01:51:24 PM PST US From: kerrjohna@comcast.net Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Slipping --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kerrjohna@comcast.net my old ag pilot instructor spent more time teaching forward and side slips than he did intersecting a radial. We did it in a Super Cub and in the Kitfox, always with an eye of maintaining the same airspeed as on the stabilized approach. in a recent article, Skywest was under review for safety concerns. 2 events of dinging a wing tip landing with upwind wing low during gusty crosswinds. no mention was made suggesting that crabbing was the preferred method of dealing with crosswinds. > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: > > Don, > > All of my old school instructors (and i've had a ton to get checked out in all > the planes that i've flown) say the slip is the only way to get a plane down or > back on glide slope. And in an emergency landing even though the fox has flaps > you may not have that luxury!! I hardly ever use flaps and rely 100% on a slip > to get me closer to glide!! > > I'd be curious to know if slips are advised by fox designers when full flaps are > deployed? > > > > > From: AlbertaIV@aol.com > > Date: 2004/05/17 Mon PM 01:00:38 CDT > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Kitfox-List: Slipping > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 01:54:16 PM PST US From: "Gary Algate" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Slipping --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Gary Algate" Re an earlier question about slipping with flaps - I have slipped mine on numerous occasions using up to 30% flaps with no bad effects whatever. I often land at a friends strip which has some serious power lines on the approach and reasonable short grass strip. I come in about 30ft over the power lines with flaps at about 25% and then use a fairly aggressive slip at 55mph and I drop like a stone. Then a simple kick on the rudder and your flying again at about 2ft above the ground right at the start of the strip. Makes for a safe and short landing Gary Algate Lite2/582 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I love slipping Avids and Kitfoxes. Few aircraft slip as well, or are as much fun. Paul Seehafer Central Wisconsin <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 02:00:20 PM PST US From: VFT@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Slipping --> Kitfox-List message posted by: VFT@aol.com Slips are a part of almost every landing in N24ZM. They are a very useful tool for controlling glide path but can be some what unnerving to someone not expecting it. I always try and explain what will happen in a slip if my passenger has not been in the plane before. Skids are another matter and are the primary reason instructors drill you to keep the ball centered while making turns in the pattern. Most aircraft will snap inverted if allowed to stall while in a skid. Not very pleasant if close to the ground. Danny Melnik F1 #25 Melbourne (FL) Rocket Factory ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:18:12 PM PST US From: "jeff.hays@aselia.com" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Slipping --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff.hays@aselia.com" Help! I don't know how to land my plane WITHOUT slipping ... Am I in danger? My plane only know's how to fly final approach with me looking out the side window .... :) How could you land a Kitfox well without slipping? Original Message: ----------------- From: AlbertaIV@aol.com Subject: Kitfox-List: Slipping --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com The Rich Man has refused to fly with me again if I ever perform another slip to landing again. He says that slipping is very very unsafe. I disagree but he is terrified of a slip. What's the opinion of any instructors. BTW, I ease into the slip with rudder and opposite flapperon (nose into the wind) while maintaining runway centerline. I maintain between 50-60 MPH during the slip. Never do I attempt a slip near stall speed. Don Smythe DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 03:38:05 PM PST US From: dwight purdy Subject: Kitfox-List: Fw: gasoline 0.0 UPPERCASE_50_75 message body is 50-75% uppercase --> Kitfox-List message posted by: dwight purdy >From: "Lawrence Hare" >To: >Subject: Fw: gasoline >Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 13:44:33 -0500 >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 >X-RAVMilter-Version: 8.4.3(snapshot 20030217) (mx.2.comteck.com) > > >----- Original Message ----- > >Subject: Fw: gasoline > > >Subject: gasoline > >Gasoline is so High - Blackout Day > >> > >> > > > >>IT HAS BEEN CALCULATED THAT IF EVERYONE IN THE UNITED STATES DID NOT > >>PURCHASE A DROP OF GASOLINE FOR ONE DAY AND ALL AT THE SAME TIME, THE OIL > >>COMPANIES WOULD CHOKE ON THEIR STOCKPILES. > >> > >>AT THE SAME TIME IT WOULD HIT THE ENTIRE INDUSTRY WITH A NET LOSS OF OVER > >>4.6 BILLION DOLLARS WHICH AFFECTS THE BOTTOM LINES OF THE OIL COMPANIES. > >> > >>THEREFORE MAY 19TH HAS BEEN FORMALLY DECLARED "STICK IT TO THEM" DAY AND > >>THE PEOPLE OF THIS NATION SHOULD NOT BUY A SINGLE DROP OF GASOLINE THAT > >>DAY. > >> > >>THE ONLY WAY THIS CAN BE DONE IS IF YOU FORWARD THIS E-MAIL TO AS MANY > >>PEOPLE AS YOU CAN AND AS QUICKLY AS YOU CAN TO GET THE WORD OUT. > >> > >>WAITING ON THIS ADMIINSTRATION TO STEP IN AND CONTROL THE PRICES IS NOT > >>GOING TO HAPPEN. WHAT HAPPENED TO THE REDUCTION AND CONTROL IN PRICES THAT > >>THE ARAB NATIONS PROMISED TWO WEEKS AGO? > >> > >>REMEMBER ONE THING, NOT ONLY IS THE PRICE OF GASOLINE GOING UP BUT AT THE > >>SAME TIME AIRLINES ARE FORCED TO RAISE THEIR PRICES, TRUCKING COMPANIES > >>ARE FORCED TO RAISE THEIR PRICES WHICH EFFECTS PRICES ON EVERYTHING THAT > >>IS SHIPPED. THINGS LIKE FOOD, CLOTHING, BUILDING MATERIALS, MEDICAL > >>SUPPLIES ETC. WHO PAYS IN THE END? WE DO! > >> > >>WE CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE. IF THEY DON'T GET THE MESSAGE AFTER ONE DAY, WE > >>WILL DO IT AGAIN AND AGAIN. > >> > >>SO DO YOUR PART AND SPREAD THE WORD. FORWARD THIS EMAIL TO EVERYONE YOU > >>KNOW. MARK YOUR CALENDARS AND MAKE MAY 19TH A DAY THAT THE CITIZENS OF THE > >>UNITED STATES SAY "ENOUGH IS ENOUGH" > >>Angela Germany, BA, MSM > >>Director of Business Operations > >>Owner > > >--- >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Version: 6.0.684 / Virus Database: 446 - Release Date: 5/13/2004 dwight --- ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 04:16:51 PM PST US From: KITFOXPILOT@att.net Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel staining --> Kitfox-List message posted by: KITFOXPILOT@att.net I just tried simple green, and it did a great job of removing the old fuel stains on my wings. I used 10 tablespoons of thr green stuff and the rest was water (32 oz bottle). I mixed it well sprayed it on and the stains came off with very little rubbing. Ray > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "flier" > > I've compounded the heck out of my PolyTone and never > had a problem. As long as it's a reasonable coat > thickness and you use mild abrasive compound. I've > even used hard compound for problem areas and you > have to do some rubbing to really go through the > paint... > > > --- Original Message --- > From: Lyle Persels > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel staining > > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lyle Persels > > > > >I don't know if others would recommend this, but > I've had excellent > >results with a very mild automotive rubbing > compound. I suppose, though, > >that over time repeated use might wear away a little > more of the surface > >than you'd like. Lyle Persels > > > >Bruce Lina wrote: > > > >>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Lina" > > >> > >>Anyone have a special conconction to remove 100LL > avgas fuel staining from > >>polyfibers' polytone paint ? > >>----- Original Message ----- > >>From: "Don Pearsall" > >>To: > >>Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Annual Inspection > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall" > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >>>There is one at http://www.sportflight.com/kfb/. > Just scroll down the page > >>>and click on Annual Inspection Form. It is pretty > complete and was > >>>contributed by Don Lorentzen. It is in HTML, but > you can import it into > >>> > >>> > >>Word > >> > >> > >>>or other word processor for modification. > >>> > >>>Don Pearsall > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > >_- > ====================================================== > ================== > Contributions > any other > Forums. > >_- > ====================================================== > ================== > >_- > ====================================================== > ================== > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > list > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > >_- > ====================================================== > ================== > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 05:22:11 PM PST US From: "John E. King " Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel staining --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John E. King " Ray & Others, I have aerothane paint on my Kitfox and have never had fuel stains on the wings. However, I would make sure that the Simple Green solution would not run down the wing surface and on to the flaperons. You might have a problem if any of that solution got into the hinge openings which would be hard to remove. -- John King Warrenton, VA KITFOXPILOT@att.net wrote: >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: KITFOXPILOT@att.net > >I just tried simple green, and it did a great job of removing the old fuel stains on my wings. I used 10 tablespoons of thr green stuff and the rest was water (32 oz bottle). I mixed it well sprayed it on and the stains came off with very little rubbing. > >Ray > > > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 06:09:03 PM PST US From: John Larsen Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ground Loop --> Kitfox-List message posted by: John Larsen Hi ; I am trying to put a comparison test together for Kitplanes between the Airdale, KF Series 7, Rans S-7 and a Zenith 701, each with a 100 hp engine and see how they handle a back country strip. I don't know of a 100 hp Avid around here at this time, if I can find one I will include it in. I designed the Airdale in 1995, so some of the improvements have already been used by other manufacturers. The point of this comparison is how they work as back country planes. We will see what happens. Thanks John. kurt schrader wrote: >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader > >John, > >If you have the time someday, I would be interested in >learning how the Airdale stacks up to the KF/Avids it >is designed to improve on. We don't hear much about >them here as far as I know. What can we add to ours >to improve them like Airdale did? > >Kurt S. > >--- John Larsen wrote: > > >>Good note Kurt, I had to land in a 90 degree gusting >>crosswind with my >>Airdale, and the only way I could get the plane to >>stick on the runway >>was to add power on touchddown with a quick wheel >>landing attitude. >> >> > > > > >__________________________________ >http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/ > > > > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 06:10:47 PM PST US From: Gill Levesque Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Slipping --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Gill Levesque "jeff.hays@aselia.com" wrote:--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff.hays@aselia.com" Help! I don't know how to land my plane WITHOUT slipping ... Am I in danger? My plane only know's how to fly final approach with me looking out the side window .... :) How could you land a Kitfox well without slipping? Original Message: ----------------- From: AlbertaIV@aol.com Subject: Kitfox-List: Slipping --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com The Rich Man has refused to fly with me again if I ever perform another slip to landing again. He says that slipping is very very unsafe. I disagree but he is terrified of a slip. What's the opinion of any instructors. BTW, I ease into the slip with rudder and opposite flapperon (nose into the wind) while maintaining runway centerline. I maintain between 50-60 MPH during the slip. Never do I attempt a slip near stall speed. Don Smythe DO NOT ARCHIVE Don, I slip in all the time, but with the nose away from the wind!!! and the upwind wing down!!! Gil Levesque C-IGVL P.S. W90 ( New London, VA) is holding their 27th annual flyin June 6/ 04 Be there!!! I will!!! Still alive and flyin!!!! Gil --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 06:18:42 PM PST US From: "Allan Mantell" Subject: Kitfox-List: fuel stains --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Allan Mantell" I remove the stains with a rag with the gas on it. It devolves itself very well. TEX ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 07:06:36 PM PST US From: "Ted Palamarek" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: How much toe-in is too much? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ted Palamarek" Randy The pictures and article were in April 2004 issue of EAA Sport Aviation. Ted <<<>>> Thanks Ted. - What issue is this? If June, I guess I have to watch my mail box. The Pony Express is slow here in South Dakota. Also, Thanks to: Lowell - I agree. I don't want to bend my plane right after it is built! Marc - Good Point! I will load some weight into it and measure again - in three point and up like wheel landing. Kurt - Neat! It didn't occur to me that such calculations could be done. Puts a new perspective on it! Darrel - I should have mentioned spring gear. I will do some more measurements and then may well be in the market for some shims. Thanks guys! Randy - Trying to straighten up and roll right! ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 07:19:56 PM PST US From: "Bob Unternaehrer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel staining --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Unternaehrer" Fuel stains on Aluminum painted with eurathane comes off easily with "easy off oven cleaner" with out hurting the paint. Try it at your own risk on fabric. Bob U. ----- Original Message ----- From: "flier" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel staining > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "flier" > > If it's the yellow scum stain on the surface of the > PolyTone I've found straight 'Simple Green' works > good. Spray it on, let it set for a bit to loosen > the stuff then wipe it off. Usually takes some elbow > grease. > > > --- Original Message --- > From: "Bruce Lina" > To: > Subject: Kitfox-List: Fuel staining > > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Lina" > > > > >Anyone have a special conconction to remove 100LL > avgas fuel staining from > >polyfibers' polytone paint ? > > > --- > > --- ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 07:33:25 PM PST US From: "Bob Unternaehrer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel staining --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Unternaehrer" Also does bad things to Plexiglass. Bob U. ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel staining > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff.hays@aselia.com" > > > How about how to get rid of the blue dye stains from 100LL???? My fuel > drains weep a little from time to time, and the white aerothane under > my wings has blue stains, and I can't get that stuff out for anything. > > Carefull with simple green, it likes LOTS of water afterwards for rinse. > Otherwise it spends all it's time oxidizing stuff (aluminum, etc.). > There's an US Airforce doc out there somewhere (on the web) stating > all the bad things it does to aluminum. > > > Original Message: > ----------------- > From: flier FLIER@sbcglobal.net > Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 09:05:23 -0500 > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com, kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel staining > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "flier" > > If it's the yellow scum stain on the surface of the > PolyTone I've found straight 'Simple Green' works > good. Spray it on, let it set for a bit to loosen > the stuff then wipe it off. Usually takes some elbow > grease. > > > --- Original Message --- > From: "Bruce Lina" > To: > Subject: Kitfox-List: Fuel staining > > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Lina" > > > > >Anyone have a special conconction to remove 100LL > avgas fuel staining from > >polyfibers' polytone paint ? > > > --- > > --- ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 07:39:22 PM PST US From: "Bob Unternaehrer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: How much toe-in is too much? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Unternaehrer" Randy,, If it's Grove spring gear, they claim theres is right toe in as shipped. Haven't tried mine but plan to take their advice. Bob U. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: How much toe-in is too much? > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" > > Thanks Ted. - What issue is this? If June, I guess I have to watch my mail > box. The Pony Express is slow here in South Dakota. > > Also, Thanks to: Lowell - I agree. I don't want to bend my plane right > after it is built! > Marc - Good Point! I will load some weight into it and measure again - in > three point and up like wheel landing. > Kurt - Neat! It didn't occur to me that such calculations could be done. > Puts a new perspective on it! > Darrel - I should have mentioned spring gear. > > I will do some more measurements and then may well be in the market for some > shims. > > Thanks guys! > > Randy - Trying to straighten up and roll right! > > . > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ella Palamarek > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: How much toe-in is too much? > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ella Palamarek" > > Not sure how many of you get the EAA Sport Aviation > magazine --- but starting on page 114 there is an excellent > article on how to measure toe-in/toe-out using a very simple > method that seems fool proof. > > Ted Palamarek > > <<<>>> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: How much toe-in is too much? > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" > > > Randy, my opinion is that ANY toe-in is significant, however > if only a small > amount it can probably be lived with. If it were me I'd > probably try to > eliminate it all with a 4 foot cheater bar. Not real > difficult. > Darrel > > > I got a laser level with a magnet base and stuck it on my > disc brake > rotors. > > By measuring the distance close to the wheels and out a > good distance, I > > determined that I have about 1.1 degrees of toe-in on each > wheel - in > other > > words it is a total of 2.2 degrees, but seems to be evenly > split between > the > > two wheels measuring from a centerline on the fuselage. > This way of > > measuring seems to be pretty accurate, but I am going to > try some > variations > > on this method to see how consistent it is. > > > > I am in the camp that prefers a neutral or slight toe-out > alignment. But > > after following the arguments a while back, I can't > remember what a > > significant amount of toe-in is. Is the 2.2 degrees > significant? > > > > Thanks, > > Randy - series 5/7 getting' close! N10NH > > > ============== > Contributions > other > ============== > ============== > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm > ============== > > > --- > > --- ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 08:14:19 PM PST US From: jareds Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Slipping --> Kitfox-List message posted by: jareds Jeff, Hallllllllllllllllllllerious do not archive!! jeff.hays@aselia.com wrote: >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff.hays@aselia.com" > > >Help! I don't know how to land my plane WITHOUT slipping ... Am I in danger? >My plane only know's how to fly final approach with me looking out the side >window .... :) How could you land a Kitfox well without slipping? > >Original Message: >----------------- >From: AlbertaIV@aol.com >Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 14:00:38 EDT >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >Subject: Kitfox-List: Slipping > > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com > >The Rich Man has refused to fly with me again if I ever perform another >slip >to landing again. He says that slipping is very very unsafe. I disagree >but >he is terrified of a slip. What's the opinion of any instructors. > >BTW, I ease into the slip with rudder and opposite flapperon (nose into the >wind) while maintaining runway centerline. I maintain between 50-60 MPH >during >the slip. Never do I attempt a slip near stall speed. > >Don Smythe >DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > > ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 08:42:12 PM PST US From: "david yeamans" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Slipping --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "david yeamans" Hello Don, Slipping an airplane at stall speed can be very exciting after you come out of the slip just above the runway and it quits flying. I was slipping my IV 1200 at 45 mph and just as I came out of the slip 10 feet above the runway it dropped like a hot potatoe. I didn't realize I had a slight tailwind, and thats what added to the stall. When an airplane quits flying, they don't gently glide to the ground as some might think, they drop fast and hit hard. Never again have I slipped under 55 mph. Slipping your airplane is one of the most safest thrilling maneuvers you can do. I've slipped mine from 2500 feet above the runway. Its like riding an elevator, slow and easy and peaceful, and just before touch down, you straighten out and gently set it down. wonderful feeling. David Definition for panic............Your Brain turns into the size of a pea and rolls out the end of your nose ----- Original Message ----- From: AlbertaIV@aol.com To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 1:00 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Slipping --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com The Rich Man has refused to fly with me again if I ever perform another slip to landing again. He says that slipping is very very unsafe. I disagree but he is terrified of a slip. What's the opinion of any instructors. BTW, I ease into the slip with rudder and opposite flapperon (nose into the wind) while maintaining runway centerline. I maintain between 50-60 MPH during the slip. Never do I attempt a slip near stall speed. Don Smythe DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 09:07:17 PM PST US From: "JMCBEAN" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Slipping --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "JMCBEAN" For the record..... Slips are an arrow in a pilots quiver and are a very useful tool in a variety of situations. That being said, slips are one tool that is used to help when a normal and stabilized approach was not planned correctly. For most, a normal and stabilized approach in a Kitfox is slipping. Because it does it so well and it's so much fun !! Slipping is not un-safe if done correctly !!! Blue Skies!! John & Debra McBean "The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground" -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of AlbertaIV@aol.com Subject: Kitfox-List: Slipping --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com The Rich Man has refused to fly with me again if I ever perform another slip to landing again. He says that slipping is very very unsafe. I disagree but he is terrified of a slip. What's the opinion of any instructors. BTW, I ease into the slip with rudder and opposite flapperon (nose into the wind) while maintaining runway centerline. I maintain between 50-60 MPH during the slip. Never do I attempt a slip near stall speed. Don Smythe DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 09:21:25 PM PST US From: Aerobatics@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Slipping totally agree!!! --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com In a message dated 5/17/2004 10:23:16 PM Central Standard Time, jareds@verizon.net writes: > Help! I don't know how to land my plane WITHOUT slipping ... Am I in > danger? > >My plane only know's how to fly final approach with me looking out the side > >window .... :) How could you land a Kitfox well without slipping? Dave KF2 582 ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 10:13:18 PM PST US From: "jimshumaker" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: How much toe-in is too much? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jimshumaker" Randy, Don't worry too much about the 1 degree out of toe in. I tried to get mine to toe out but only got most of it out. Think of it this way, if one were going to ground loop because they did not set down within 1 degree of absolutely straight down the runway, then all of us would have ground looped a few times already. If you are 3 to 5 degrees off then the plane will definetly try to tuck under on you. But that is what the rudder is for. Once you have the one wheel rollling straight down the runway, the other wheel at 2.2 degrees off put up very little protest when it touches. Also note that as the springs compress, the axis of the axles will spread and increase the toe out. This is because the fuselage is not parallel with the ground. For a simple demonstration, overlap your arms in front of you with the forarms parallel to each other and the upper arms parallel to the floor. Point the index fingers in opposite directions. The index fingers are the axles. We will pretend that there is no toe in or out. Now move your wrists up and down to simulate the flex of the landing gear. Note there is no obvious change in toe in or toe out. Feeling silly yet? Now raise your arms up until the upper arms are about 35 to 37 degrees above level. Did you check to make sure no one was watching? Now do the wrist thing. If you were watching carefully you noted that the toe out relative to the pavement, increased. If you raise you arms to 90 degrees you will notice that all you get is toe out and no shock absorber action. You are also dragging your tailwheel or landin on a wall. Taxi testing should tell you how sensitive the plane is to toe in. If you have aluminum spring gear then I understand it is easy to change with shims. Then straight to 1 degree out would be ideal. Of course if you go tooo far out then the plane would want to waddle. : ) Jim Shumaker ----- Original Message ----- From: "kurt schrader" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: How much toe-in is too much? > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader > > Randy, > > I met a guy with 3500 hrs of tailwheel time who > crunched his new Avid in 15 hrs and hated it so much > he refused to rebuild it. From his stories, I got the > impression his only problem was toe-in. > > I lean toward the toe-out camp too. I have mine at > about 1.3 total degrees out now (less than a degree > each) and it is great on grass. Haven't done pavement > with it yet though. > > This is how significant it looks mathematically. One > degree is about 1 foot every 60 feet. 60 mph is > 88'/sec and 40 mph is 58+'/sec. Call them 90'/sec and > 60'/sec to make it easy. At 2.2 degrees in, your > wheels will try to meet in the middle in one second > after landing, if you touch down at 60 mph. Even at > 40 mph they will try to move 2.2' toward the center in > one second. So at 40 mph, I would say that you would > be in a ground loop in just over 1 second, if you > touched down one wheel first. > > I think you will be very unhappy with the handling. > If you must, try it taxiing on pavement first, then > takeoff and land on grass only. I think it would be > better to put 2.5 - 3 degrees of shims on both sides. > Then you are toe-out on each. Tire wear should be > better too. > > You should be able to measure along the outside tire > sidewall just like the disk brake, but it is easier to > get to IMHO. Spin the tire first to make sure it > doesn't wobble. If the sidewall is smooth, it should > give a good reading. I just used a straight edge > along the sidewall to align with. You can set your > lazer there. > > I'm tired. Gotta go. :-( > > Kurt S. > > --- Randy Daughenbaugh wrote: > > ......... > > I am in the camp that prefers a neutral or slight > > toe-out alignment. But after following the > > arguments a while back, I can't remember what a > > significant amount of toe-in is. Is the 2.2 degrees > > significant? > > > > Thanks, > > Randy - series 5/7 getting' close! N10NH > > > __________________________________ > http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/ > > ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 10:20:45 PM PST US From: jareds Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Slipping --> Kitfox-List message posted by: jareds John, Would you happen to know whether the designers allow for full flaps and a slip? Or even partial flaps and slip in the kitfox? I know some GA planes specify in the POH one or the other! JMCBEAN wrote: >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "JMCBEAN" > >For the record..... Slips are an arrow in a pilots quiver and are a very >useful tool in a variety of situations. That being said, slips are one tool >that is used to help when a normal and stabilized approach was not planned >correctly. > >For most, a normal and stabilized approach in a Kitfox is slipping. Because >it does it so well and it's so much fun !! > >Slipping is not un-safe if done correctly !!! > >Blue Skies!! >John & Debra McBean >"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground" > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of >AlbertaIV@aol.com >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >Subject: Kitfox-List: Slipping > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com > >The Rich Man has refused to fly with me again if I ever perform another slip >to landing again. He says that slipping is very very unsafe. I disagree >but >he is terrified of a slip. What's the opinion of any instructors. > >BTW, I ease into the slip with rudder and opposite flapperon (nose into the >wind) while maintaining runway centerline. I maintain between 50-60 MPH >during >the slip. Never do I attempt a slip near stall speed. > >Don Smythe >DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > >