Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:03 AM - PAX Was: Slipping (michel)
2. 03:09 AM - (Off Topic): gasoline (michel)
3. 06:52 AM - Re: Slipping (Lowell Fitt)
4. 07:57 AM - Re: Slipping (jeff.hays@aselia.com)
5. 08:32 AM - Re: Slipping (JMCBEAN)
6. 08:45 AM - Re: (Off Topic): gasoline (Bruce Harrington)
7. 09:26 AM - Re: Slipping (JMCBEAN)
8. 10:29 AM - Re: Slipping (jeff.hays@aselia.com)
9. 10:40 AM - Off Topic - Gasoline (Scott McClintock)
10. 10:44 AM - W & B Calculator (Steve Cooper)
11. 11:15 AM - Re: (Off Topic): gasoline (Don Pearsall)
12. 11:17 AM - Re: W & B Calculator (JMCBEAN)
13. 11:17 AM - Re: Slipping (JMCBEAN)
14. 11:23 AM - Re: Slipping (Bruce Lina)
15. 11:39 AM - Re: (Off Topic): gasoline (Clifford Begnaud)
16. 01:50 PM - Skystar B/O parts (Arthur Nation)
17. 02:59 PM - Re: Skystar B/O parts (jeff.hays@aselia.com)
18. 03:34 PM - Re: (Off Topic): gasoline (Steve Zakreski)
19. 03:38 PM - Re: (Off Topic): gasoline (Steve Zakreski)
20. 03:39 PM - Re: Skystar B/O parts (rdmac)
21. 04:39 PM - Gasoline (Graeme Toft)
22. 06:30 PM - Re: Slipping (JMCBEAN)
23. 06:33 PM - Re: Slipping (Gary Algate)
24. 07:22 PM - Re: Slipping (david yeamans)
25. 08:40 PM - Re: Slipping (Marc Arseneault)
26. 08:57 PM - Re: (Off Topic): gasoline (John E. King)
27. 10:03 PM - removing protective film from flaperons. (Eric Osmond)
28. 10:31 PM - Re: removing protective film from flaperons. (Forfun3@aol.com)
29. 10:38 PM - Re: removing protective film from flaperons. (Forfun3@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | PAX Was: Slipping |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: michel <michel@online.no>
>===== Original Message From "david yeamans" <dafox@ckt.net> =====
> Sence you mentioned it, I'd like to comment on the well being of my
> passengers.
For that purpose, I made a "PAX checklist" that they can read while I do my
pre-flight. It says that the plane is not certified by the aviation
authorities and that their insurance won't cover them, except for the
third-party insurance that is compulsory for all microlight planes. It says to
make sure the controls have enough freedom of movement, especially under
take-off and landing. I also ask them to immediately stop talking whenever
someone calls on the radio, and last, I tell them that the purpose of the
flight is enjoyment and if the experience if felt unpleasant, to immediately
warn the pilot (me) who will then start the procedure for a landing.
Once we are up in the air, I ask my first-time passenger how it goes. By the
tone of their voice I can usually tell if they enjoy it or not.
And yes, when I have a passenger, I fly like an airliner, for PAX comfort. I
know from experience that the best way to never have to invite again friends
on my sailboat is to take them out first time in a gale wind, heavy sea and
pouring rain!
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 2
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| Subject: | (Off Topic): gasoline |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: michel <michel@online.no>
Off topic:
>===== Original Message From dwight purdy <dpurdy@comteck.com> =====
>I do
>find it strange how the price of gasoline is tied to the price of oil on
>the stock market but at least where I live it goes up and down on the
>weekend while the market is closed. HMMMM.
It's the same in Norway, Dwight. Every morning each petrol station rings
around to know what the competitors are asking for a liter of unlead that day.
Then they adjust their prices to stay competitive. That's the great thing with
our free enterprise system: the consumer is the winner. The other alternative
is that the State dictates the prices. I think it's called ... communism! :-)
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 3
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
I might have to take gentle exception to this idea. Maybe I'm just not
that good a pilot, but at my airport, my downwind is always flown the same
with entry to base at the same place - landmarks - but sometimes when
turning to final I find myself too high for a normal approach to the
numbers, I slip routinely to get it on the ground. In other words, I often
correct my approach with a slip. I simply don't have the time to go around.
I would be going around about 50% of the time if I never adjusted an
approach with a slip. Maybe it's the temps or the winds, but I haven't yet
learned to control all the factors leading to a spot landing without a slip.
Actually, as I think about it a little maybe it was my instructor. At least
back in the early 70's when learning, I was advised to always come in high
enough that I wouldn't have to add power to reach the runway. Something
about engine failure on approach - easier to loose altitude than stretch the
approach in an emergency.
I do it with first time passengers also and have never had anyone say they
didn't want to go again. I do, however warn of it and explain why It works
for losing altitude.
One thing I don't do is try to talk a reluctant flyer to fly with me. I
think that could prove disastrous in a liability sense.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Cooper" <spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Slipping
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper" <spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roger Standley" <taildragon@msn.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Slipping
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Roger Standley" <taildragon@msn.com>
> >
> > If flaps and a forward slip are needed to correct an approach, maybe a
> go-around should be considered.
>
> No! NOT to correct an approach. To clear an ostacle on the approach end of
> the runway or short field landing.
>
> Steve
>
>
Message 4
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff.hays@aselia.com" <jeff.hays@aselia.com>
I agree completely with Lowell, and in fact at the risk of insulting
somebody, I'd have to ask - Do you guys fly Kitfox's or just talk on
the list about it? Seriously, in my airplane, unless you want to start
descending on final from a LONG ways out, the only way to get the plane
down is with slips. On my sixth test flight, I was five miles out at
3000 ft. and my engine dropped dead (failed fuel pump). Not only did I
glide all the way back, but I had to slip like crazy to get down to the
runway. With one notch of flaperons, there's no discernable amount
of drag increase so that won't do it. And using the second notch messes
up the control feel/pressure so badly I don't like to use it at all.
A lot of this discussion sounds like discussing slips in a C172, and
just doesn't seem applicable to a Kitfox (My opinion). Plus in any
case, you can do full flap slips in a Cessna, it is not prohibited,
but rather cautioned against. What really happens, is it start's to
bob on you as the tail blanks out. Also in an Archer or Warrior, you
can get rudder/vertical tail stalls if you slip one of them hard also,
which makes the nose weave back and forth.
I also agree 100% with Lowell about first time flier's. I only take
passenger's who REALLY want to go fly. Having experienced flying
with somebody who is truly scared, is not an experience I want to
repeat. I don't see any point or purpose, of trying to work somebody
through fear of flying in small planes. It is an optional thing to
do in life, and there's no reason to try to get somebody to do it
unless they really want to to begin with. These people, aren't going
to have a problem with slips in any case.
Ok - Flame away. :)
Jeff
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Lowell Fitt lcfitt@inreach.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Slipping
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
I might have to take gentle exception to this idea. Maybe I'm just not
that good a pilot, but at my airport, my downwind is always flown the same
with entry to base at the same place - landmarks - but sometimes when
turning to final I find myself too high for a normal approach to the
numbers, I slip routinely to get it on the ground. In other words, I often
correct my approach with a slip. I simply don't have the time to go around.
I would be going around about 50% of the time if I never adjusted an
approach with a slip. Maybe it's the temps or the winds, but I haven't yet
learned to control all the factors leading to a spot landing without a slip.
Actually, as I think about it a little maybe it was my instructor. At least
back in the early 70's when learning, I was advised to always come in high
enough that I wouldn't have to add power to reach the runway. Something
about engine failure on approach - easier to loose altitude than stretch the
approach in an emergency.
I do it with first time passengers also and have never had anyone say they
didn't want to go again. I do, however warn of it and explain why It works
for losing altitude.
One thing I don't do is try to talk a reluctant flyer to fly with me. I
think that could prove disastrous in a liability sense.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Cooper" <spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Slipping
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper" <spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roger Standley" <taildragon@msn.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Slipping
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Roger Standley" <taildragon@msn.com>
> >
> > If flaps and a forward slip are needed to correct an approach, maybe a
> go-around should be considered.
>
> No! NOT to correct an approach. To clear an ostacle on the approach end of
> the runway or short field landing.
>
> Steve
>
>
Message 5
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "JMCBEAN" <JDMCBEAN@cableone.net>
I did not read the initial thread as that being of a non-aviation related
passenger.. snip.... He says that slipping is very very unsafe....
However, you are very correct. First time fliers should be handled with kid
gloves... just give them great ride don't show off how much you know.
Blue Skies!!
John & Debra McBean
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of david yeamans
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Slipping
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "david yeamans" <dafox@ckt.net>
Hello Bob,
Sence you mentioned it, I'd like to comment on the well being of my
passengers. I first started flying my kitfox in april 2001. I've flown 91
first time passengers sence then, from 5 to 89 years old, and alot of them
many
times. I always ask them before we fly how they feel, if they are afraid,
or
have a fear of flying or really want to go flying. I had one college girl
that
admitted she had a fear af flying, but was trying to overcome it by flying.
She was the only one out of ninety one, and by talking and explaining
each manuever from takeoff to landing, and to all the passengers, it seems
to settle and relax them and if they have a fear, it usually is calmed down.
Most of all these passengers, including an 82 year old long time
friend,
and an 89 year old aunt has done the slip, and what my grandkids call the
roller coaster ride, A low high speed pass over the run way, and at the end
of the runway, pull it straight up and bring it over the top before it
stalls.They
all come back for more. I think its important to explain each maneuver
before you do it, and do it gently to gain their confidence.
I have a Cessna Skyhawk and have flown around 60 passengers, a lot
of Young Eagles, in both airplanes, and i guess I haven't flown a
grandmother
yet, but I've only had one instructor.
David
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Unternaehrer
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 1:37 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Slipping
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Unternaehrer"
<shilocom@c-magic.com>
I really hate to comment on this "Thread". But seems no body has
commented
on the comfort and well being of the passenger. More than one of you have
said something to the effect "I always use slips". I feel you should fly
airplanes smooth, straight and level so that any passenger is comfortable.
Personally I can do slips at any angle or decent rate but would rather go
around than do one with a "non-aviation" passenger aboard. I even
mentioned
to my son-in-law ( on his first flight) while close to the ground on final
approach, that we were a "little fast and might float a little" (because
he
and I are both heavy) and it gave him concern. We were approaching my 1200
ft strip and I imagine he thought it looked like a postage stamp anyhow,
as
I once did. He answered in a not so comfortable voice...."are we all
right". So be carefull how you impress unsusspecting passengers with
other
than straight flight. Bob U.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick" <turboflyer@comcast.net>
To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Slipping
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rick" <turboflyer@comcast.net>
>
> I do them on occasion, once at over 2000FPM, maybe more, needle was
pegged.
> Real nice if one comes in high, kick and stick it. Should have done it
from
> 17,800. It took a long time to get down....:)
>
> Rick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of JMCBEAN
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Slipping
>
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "JMCBEAN" <JDMCBEAN@cableone.net>
>
> I do not know.. However, I have slipped the 4, 5, 6 and 7 with all the
> different flap settings although I rarely use full flaps on these. If I
> remember correctly.. because the flaps on the 4 are friction lock they
> didn't like to stay completely deployed.
>
> One of the reasons Cessna doesn't want slips with full flaps was because
it
> would completely block out the tail... Especially with the 40 degree
flaps.
>
> Blue Skies!!
> John & Debra McBean
> "The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of jareds
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Slipping
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: jareds <jareds@verizon.net>
>
> John,
>
> Would you happen to know whether the designers allow for full flaps and
> a slip? Or even partial flaps and slip in the kitfox? I know some GA
> planes specify in the POH one or the other!
>
> JMCBEAN wrote:
>
> >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "JMCBEAN" <JDMCBEAN@cableone.net>
> >
> >For the record..... Slips are an arrow in a pilots quiver and are a
very
> >useful tool in a variety of situations. That being said, slips are one
> tool
> >that is used to help when a normal and stabilized approach was not
planned
> >correctly.
> >
> >For most, a normal and stabilized approach in a Kitfox is slipping.
> Because
> >it does it so well and it's so much fun !!
> >
> >Slipping is not un-safe if done correctly !!!
> >
> >Blue Skies!!
> >John & Debra McBean
> >"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> >[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
> >AlbertaIV@aol.com
> >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Kitfox-List: Slipping
> >
> >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
> >
> >The Rich Man has refused to fly with me again if I ever perform another
> slip
> >to landing again. He says that slipping is very very unsafe. I
disagree
> >but
> >he is terrified of a slip. What's the opinion of any instructors.
> >
> >BTW, I ease into the slip with rudder and opposite flapperon (nose into
the
> >wind) while maintaining runway centerline. I maintain between 50-60
MPH
> >during
> >the slip. Never do I attempt a slip near stall speed.
> >
> >Don Smythe
> >DO NOT ARCHIVE
> >
> >
>
>
> ---
>
>
---
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: (Off Topic): gasoline |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Harrington" <aerowood@mcsi.net>
Sometimes also called Socialism.
bh
> It's the same in Norway, Dwight. Every morning each petrol station rings
> around to know what the competitors are asking for a liter of unlead that day.
> Then they adjust their prices to stay competitive. That's the great thing with
> our free enterprise system: the consumer is the winner. The other alternative
> is that the State dictates the prices. I think it's called ... communism! :-)
>
> Cheers,
> Michel
>
> do not archive
Message 7
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "JMCBEAN" <JDMCBEAN@cableone.net>
Glad your flame suit is on :)...... If you are operating a Cessna 150 or
172 that has 40 degree flap available the POH cautions against full flap
forward slips. You may get away with mild but if you stall it.. it will
turn over on its back. But we are not flying Cessnas.....
Over 100 hours in the last 6 months in Kitfox's
Also, I teach slips and feel they are a very useful and safe tool if done
properly...
I also teach that once in the pattern one should always plan so that the
runway can be reached with a normal glide if the engine was to quit. This
makes the key position the most vulnerable position.
I can assure you that if you were to take a check ride and every landing
required a slip the examiner would question your planning and would wonder
why the instructor signed you off to take the ride. On the other hand... he
would applaud you if he was to pull the engine, you turn to the runway and
used a slip to bleed off altitude once the runway was made.
Jeff, you were on your 6th test flight..... any test flight should be
planned so that you can return to the airport. So that was smart of you to
have enough altitude to glide back and it was good that you knew how to slip
to bleed off the excess altitude once you got there.
Again... I use slips all the time because they are fun and it is good to
stay in practice.. especially for back country work. IMHO it should be used
as a tool not standard procedure.
Now for the humbling part... Last year I was flying with a very experienced
pilot in his Model IV Speedster.. We had had a very similar discussion
regarding slips earlier. As we had a great deal of fun flying it was time
to head back to his airport... He had invited me to do the landing. Low and
behold.. or maybe not so LOW, I was way too high on the approach... He
looked at me and laughed as I cranked it into a very aggressive slip to a
"don't let me screw up the" landing. Luck was on my side... :)
Blue Skies!!
John & Debra McBean
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
jeff.hays@aselia.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Slipping
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff.hays@aselia.com"
<jeff.hays@aselia.com>
I agree completely with Lowell, and in fact at the risk of insulting
somebody, I'd have to ask - Do you guys fly Kitfox's or just talk on
the list about it? Seriously, in my airplane, unless you want to start
descending on final from a LONG ways out, the only way to get the plane
down is with slips. On my sixth test flight, I was five miles out at
3000 ft. and my engine dropped dead (failed fuel pump). Not only did I
glide all the way back, but I had to slip like crazy to get down to the
runway. With one notch of flaperons, there's no discernable amount
of drag increase so that won't do it. And using the second notch messes
up the control feel/pressure so badly I don't like to use it at all.
A lot of this discussion sounds like discussing slips in a C172, and
just doesn't seem applicable to a Kitfox (My opinion). Plus in any
case, you can do full flap slips in a Cessna, it is not prohibited,
but rather cautioned against. What really happens, is it start's to
bob on you as the tail blanks out. Also in an Archer or Warrior, you
can get rudder/vertical tail stalls if you slip one of them hard also,
which makes the nose weave back and forth.
I also agree 100% with Lowell about first time flier's. I only take
passenger's who REALLY want to go fly. Having experienced flying
with somebody who is truly scared, is not an experience I want to
repeat. I don't see any point or purpose, of trying to work somebody
through fear of flying in small planes. It is an optional thing to
do in life, and there's no reason to try to get somebody to do it
unless they really want to to begin with. These people, aren't going
to have a problem with slips in any case.
Ok - Flame away. :)
Jeff
Message 8
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff.hays@aselia.com" <jeff.hays@aselia.com>
Hope you got your flame suit on as well John, because "cautions"
and "prohibits" are two different things. Plus a 172, won't flip on
it back in a slip due to elevator blanking. A cross-controlled 172
or 152 will flip upside down pretty easily if stalled. BUT this has
nothing to do with flaps. Just the inherent stall characteristic of
these planes in a cross-controlled stall.
I have never flown a 150, but the 152's POH does NOT have any caution
against full flap slips.
We have had a C172 in the family for a number of years, and I have
flown in it when it was full flap slipped, and I have flown it myself
and slipped it with full flaps. It bob's around a lot. BUT never
did it flip upside down from that. If you don't know that they behave
that way, you can certainly scare yourself though.
My Kitfox buffets so badly as you approach a cross controlled stall,
you'd have to be really brain dead to miss all the racket from the
turtledeck.
Slips can be anything from a little bit of rudder to a LOT of rudder.
I would assert, that if they are not a standard part of a Kitfox
pilot's repetoire, that that pilot, doesn't really know how to fly
a Kitfox. Also that if somebody is not instructing this, that they are
not a good instructor. :)
Yep - About 6 cups of coffee so far today, bring it on!
Original Message:
-----------------
From: JMCBEAN JDMCBEAN@cableone.net
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Slipping
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "JMCBEAN" <JDMCBEAN@cableone.net>
Glad your flame suit is on :)...... If you are operating a Cessna 150 or
172 that has 40 degree flap available the POH cautions against full flap
forward slips. You may get away with mild but if you stall it.. it will
turn over on its back. But we are not flying Cessnas.....
Over 100 hours in the last 6 months in Kitfox's
Also, I teach slips and feel they are a very useful and safe tool if done
properly...
I also teach that once in the pattern one should always plan so that the
runway can be reached with a normal glide if the engine was to quit. This
makes the key position the most vulnerable position.
I can assure you that if you were to take a check ride and every landing
required a slip the examiner would question your planning and would wonder
why the instructor signed you off to take the ride. On the other hand... he
would applaud you if he was to pull the engine, you turn to the runway and
used a slip to bleed off altitude once the runway was made.
Jeff, you were on your 6th test flight..... any test flight should be
planned so that you can return to the airport. So that was smart of you to
have enough altitude to glide back and it was good that you knew how to slip
to bleed off the excess altitude once you got there.
Again... I use slips all the time because they are fun and it is good to
stay in practice.. especially for back country work. IMHO it should be used
as a tool not standard procedure.
Now for the humbling part... Last year I was flying with a very experienced
pilot in his Model IV Speedster.. We had had a very similar discussion
regarding slips earlier. As we had a great deal of fun flying it was time
to head back to his airport... He had invited me to do the landing. Low and
behold.. or maybe not so LOW, I was way too high on the approach... He
looked at me and laughed as I cranked it into a very aggressive slip to a
"don't let me screw up the" landing. Luck was on my side... :)
Blue Skies!!
John & Debra McBean
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
jeff.hays@aselia.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Slipping
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff.hays@aselia.com"
<jeff.hays@aselia.com>
I agree completely with Lowell, and in fact at the risk of insulting
somebody, I'd have to ask - Do you guys fly Kitfox's or just talk on
the list about it? Seriously, in my airplane, unless you want to start
descending on final from a LONG ways out, the only way to get the plane
down is with slips. On my sixth test flight, I was five miles out at
3000 ft. and my engine dropped dead (failed fuel pump). Not only did I
glide all the way back, but I had to slip like crazy to get down to the
runway. With one notch of flaperons, there's no discernable amount
of drag increase so that won't do it. And using the second notch messes
up the control feel/pressure so badly I don't like to use it at all.
A lot of this discussion sounds like discussing slips in a C172, and
just doesn't seem applicable to a Kitfox (My opinion). Plus in any
case, you can do full flap slips in a Cessna, it is not prohibited,
but rather cautioned against. What really happens, is it start's to
bob on you as the tail blanks out. Also in an Archer or Warrior, you
can get rudder/vertical tail stalls if you slip one of them hard also,
which makes the nose weave back and forth.
I also agree 100% with Lowell about first time flier's. I only take
passenger's who REALLY want to go fly. Having experienced flying
with somebody who is truly scared, is not an experience I want to
repeat. I don't see any point or purpose, of trying to work somebody
through fear of flying in small planes. It is an optional thing to
do in life, and there's no reason to try to get somebody to do it
unless they really want to to begin with. These people, aren't going
to have a problem with slips in any case.
Ok - Flame away. :)
Jeff
Message 9
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| Subject: | Off Topic - Gasoline |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Scott McClintock <scott_mcclintock@dot.state.ak.us>
Michel wrote: ..........that the State dictates the prices. I think it's
called ... communism! :-)
Michel, I want to raise two points.
1) Sometimes it is necessary for the government to step in and impose
price restrictions. This has been done several times during my lifetime
and often for very justifiable economic reasons. Frankly, I (and most
other Alaskans) wish that the Government would step in and regulate what
Alaska Airlines charges for travel into and out of our State. I can fly
Alaska Airlines from Nome to Anchorage and the round trip price will
vary between $285 to $450 depending on the time of year. I can fly the
same airline from Seattle to Chicago for about 1/2 that price, R/T!
Since Mark Air and others discontinued service up here, we are at
Alaska's mercy. The most expensive flights are during the spring and
summer when more passengers are flying. Get this, I often travel from
Nome to Fairbanks on business and with less than 21 days notice. That
trip (which takes up the whole day, one way) costs a whopping $890 R/T.
Now, if that's not a monopoly, I'd like to know what is?
2) Here in Nome (and other Bush communities) our heating oil and
gasoline is barged up to us. Usually only once a year. Since last spring
we have been paying $2.49 per gallon for unleaded (the only fuel grade
available). I just learned that the "low-bidder" price for the coming
year's supply was $2.72 whole sale. That means that our at the pump
price will be $3.30 a gallon. Heating oil will go from $2.20 to $3.15
per gallon.
I have a very modest home, less than 1000 square feet. My heating oil
costs (so far) this season is $3,300. Next season I will pay $4,725!
100LL for the "Arctic Fox" will probably be $5.00 per gallon or more.
We would certainly welcome some "communistic intervention" or any sort
of relief. And of course you know that Alaska is an oil producing
state.
All of this, and it now looks like my union will be striking beginning
next month as the State wants to cut our wages and benefits and increase
our workweek to six days, uncompensated.
I work two full time jobs now and my wife works full time. It's a good
thing our children are grown as I don't know how I could afford to keep
them fed.
This is why I am working towards becoming a "Winter Texan". I know that
Norway is a big producer of oil. Be glad your government gives you some
market protections.
Scott in Nome
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 10
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| Subject: | W & B Calculator |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper" <spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
Anyody got a W & B Spreadsheet calcualtor? I'd like to compare numbers with
the Avid version.
Thanks,
Steve
Message 11
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| Subject: | (Off Topic): gasoline |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall" <donpearsall@comcast.net>
Michel,
I hate to continue an off-topic conversation, but I have to address this one
point.
"Every morning each petrol station rings around to know what the competitors
are asking for a liter of unlead that day.
Then they adjust their prices to stay competitive."
In just about every other business in the states, including mine, this is
called "price fixing" and is illegal. Evidently it is not illegal for the
gasoline suppliers. In the case of the gas dealers ringing around to adjust
prices, they do that to keep prices UP, not merely to be competitive.
Don Pearsall
Message 12
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| Subject: | W & B Calculator |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "JMCBEAN" <JDMCBEAN@cableone.net>
Try www.desertfoxsquadron.org under the tech hanger.
Blue Skies!!
John & Debra McBean
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Steve Cooper
Subject: Kitfox-List: W & B Calculator
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper" <spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
Anyody got a W & B Spreadsheet calcualtor? I'd like to compare numbers with
the Avid version.
Thanks,
Steve
Message 13
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "JMCBEAN" <JDMCBEAN@cableone.net>
I'm 2 cups behind you.. but getting ready to go fly....
I do need to remind that I was specific in mentioning 40 degree flaps.
152's do not have 40 degrees and neither does later model 150's or 172's.
I am also assuming that we are a power off slip to landing stall.. not a
whip stall or power on... A whip or power on stall will flip it over but a
slip to landing stall I have never experienced either to flip except for the
150 with full 40 degree flaps. I never did push the 172 to that limit
because the manual said it cautions against just like the 150 and I know
what the 150 did.
But again we are not flying Cessnas... I have done full rudder lock slips in
the Kitfox with and without flaps and with and without floats.. felt odd at
times but never un-safe.
Slips should part of any pilots repetoire.... Period.
PS.. I always wear the flame suit.... Standard issue.....
Blue Skies!!
John & Debra McBean
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
jeff.hays@aselia.com
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Slipping
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff.hays@aselia.com"
<jeff.hays@aselia.com>
Hope you got your flame suit on as well John, because "cautions"
and "prohibits" are two different things. Plus a 172, won't flip on
it back in a slip due to elevator blanking. A cross-controlled 172
or 152 will flip upside down pretty easily if stalled. BUT this has
nothing to do with flaps. Just the inherent stall characteristic of
these planes in a cross-controlled stall.
I have never flown a 150, but the 152's POH does NOT have any caution
against full flap slips.
We have had a C172 in the family for a number of years, and I have
flown in it when it was full flap slipped, and I have flown it myself
and slipped it with full flaps. It bob's around a lot. BUT never
did it flip upside down from that. If you don't know that they behave
that way, you can certainly scare yourself though.
My Kitfox buffets so badly as you approach a cross controlled stall,
you'd have to be really brain dead to miss all the racket from the
turtledeck.
Slips can be anything from a little bit of rudder to a LOT of rudder.
I would assert, that if they are not a standard part of a Kitfox
pilot's repetoire, that that pilot, doesn't really know how to fly
a Kitfox. Also that if somebody is not instructing this, that they are
not a good instructor. :)
Yep - About 6 cups of coffee so far today, bring it on!
Original Message:
-----------------
From: JMCBEAN JDMCBEAN@cableone.net
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Slipping
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "JMCBEAN" <JDMCBEAN@cableone.net>
Glad your flame suit is on :)...... If you are operating a Cessna 150 or
172 that has 40 degree flap available the POH cautions against full flap
forward slips. You may get away with mild but if you stall it.. it will
turn over on its back. But we are not flying Cessnas.....
Over 100 hours in the last 6 months in Kitfox's
Also, I teach slips and feel they are a very useful and safe tool if done
properly...
I also teach that once in the pattern one should always plan so that the
runway can be reached with a normal glide if the engine was to quit. This
makes the key position the most vulnerable position.
I can assure you that if you were to take a check ride and every landing
required a slip the examiner would question your planning and would wonder
why the instructor signed you off to take the ride. On the other hand... he
would applaud you if he was to pull the engine, you turn to the runway and
used a slip to bleed off altitude once the runway was made.
Jeff, you were on your 6th test flight..... any test flight should be
planned so that you can return to the airport. So that was smart of you to
have enough altitude to glide back and it was good that you knew how to slip
to bleed off the excess altitude once you got there.
Again... I use slips all the time because they are fun and it is good to
stay in practice.. especially for back country work. IMHO it should be used
as a tool not standard procedure.
Now for the humbling part... Last year I was flying with a very experienced
pilot in his Model IV Speedster.. We had had a very similar discussion
regarding slips earlier. As we had a great deal of fun flying it was time
to head back to his airport... He had invited me to do the landing. Low and
behold.. or maybe not so LOW, I was way too high on the approach... He
looked at me and laughed as I cranked it into a very aggressive slip to a
"don't let me screw up the" landing. Luck was on my side... :)
Blue Skies!!
John & Debra McBean
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
jeff.hays@aselia.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Slipping
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff.hays@aselia.com"
<jeff.hays@aselia.com>
I agree completely with Lowell, and in fact at the risk of insulting
somebody, I'd have to ask - Do you guys fly Kitfox's or just talk on
the list about it? Seriously, in my airplane, unless you want to start
descending on final from a LONG ways out, the only way to get the plane
down is with slips. On my sixth test flight, I was five miles out at
3000 ft. and my engine dropped dead (failed fuel pump). Not only did I
glide all the way back, but I had to slip like crazy to get down to the
runway. With one notch of flaperons, there's no discernable amount
of drag increase so that won't do it. And using the second notch messes
up the control feel/pressure so badly I don't like to use it at all.
A lot of this discussion sounds like discussing slips in a C172, and
just doesn't seem applicable to a Kitfox (My opinion). Plus in any
case, you can do full flap slips in a Cessna, it is not prohibited,
but rather cautioned against. What really happens, is it start's to
bob on you as the tail blanks out. Also in an Archer or Warrior, you
can get rudder/vertical tail stalls if you slip one of them hard also,
which makes the nose weave back and forth.
I also agree 100% with Lowell about first time flier's. I only take
passenger's who REALLY want to go fly. Having experienced flying
with somebody who is truly scared, is not an experience I want to
repeat. I don't see any point or purpose, of trying to work somebody
through fear of flying in small planes. It is an optional thing to
do in life, and there's no reason to try to get somebody to do it
unless they really want to to begin with. These people, aren't going
to have a problem with slips in any case.
Ok - Flame away. :)
Jeff
Message 14
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Lina" <airlina@usadatanet.net>
Right on Jeff, There is just not any drag producing devices on my Series 5
that allow me to steepen my approach like other airplanes that have 40
degrees of flap available. Not only that but since my strip is surrounded by
tall trees (up to 80 feet) I have to slip to see these trees so that I can
clear them by the right amount and not use up all the runway. When I am on
speed on final 1.2 Vs or Vso, my AOA is so high that the visibility over my
IO-240 cowling is nil. I even tried a Oregon Aero booster seat but it
doesn't improve the situation any appreciable amount. Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: <jeff.hays@aselia.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Slipping
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff.hays@aselia.com"
<jeff.hays@aselia.com>
>
>
> I agree completely with Lowell, and in fact at the risk of insulting
> somebody, I'd have to ask - Do you guys fly Kitfox's or just talk on
> the list about it? Seriously, in my airplane, unless you want to start
> descending on final from a LONG ways out, the only way to get the plane
> down is with slips. On my sixth test flight, I was five miles out at
> 3000 ft. and my engine dropped dead (failed fuel pump). Not only did I
> glide all the way back, but I had to slip like crazy to get down to the
> runway. With one notch of flaperons, there's no discernable amount
> of drag increase so that won't do it. And using the second notch messes
> up the control feel/pressure so badly I don't like to use it at all.
>
> A lot of this discussion sounds like discussing slips in a C172, and
> just doesn't seem applicable to a Kitfox (My opinion). Plus in any
> case, you can do full flap slips in a Cessna, it is not prohibited,
> but rather cautioned against. What really happens, is it start's to
> bob on you as the tail blanks out. Also in an Archer or Warrior, you
> can get rudder/vertical tail stalls if you slip one of them hard also,
> which makes the nose weave back and forth.
>
> I also agree 100% with Lowell about first time flier's. I only take
> passenger's who REALLY want to go fly. Having experienced flying
> with somebody who is truly scared, is not an experience I want to
> repeat. I don't see any point or purpose, of trying to work somebody
> through fear of flying in small planes. It is an optional thing to
> do in life, and there's no reason to try to get somebody to do it
> unless they really want to to begin with. These people, aren't going
> to have a problem with slips in any case.
>
> Ok - Flame away. :)
>
> Jeff
>
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: Lowell Fitt lcfitt@inreach.com
> Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 06:48:53 -0700
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Slipping
>
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
>
> I might have to take gentle exception to this idea. Maybe I'm just not
> that good a pilot, but at my airport, my downwind is always flown the same
> with entry to base at the same place - landmarks - but sometimes when
> turning to final I find myself too high for a normal approach to the
> numbers, I slip routinely to get it on the ground. In other words, I
often
> correct my approach with a slip. I simply don't have the time to go
around.
> I would be going around about 50% of the time if I never adjusted an
> approach with a slip. Maybe it's the temps or the winds, but I haven't
yet
> learned to control all the factors leading to a spot landing without a
slip.
> Actually, as I think about it a little maybe it was my instructor. At
least
> back in the early 70's when learning, I was advised to always come in high
> enough that I wouldn't have to add power to reach the runway. Something
> about engine failure on approach - easier to loose altitude than stretch
the
> approach in an emergency.
>
> I do it with first time passengers also and have never had anyone say they
> didn't want to go again. I do, however warn of it and explain why It
works
> for losing altitude.
>
> One thing I don't do is try to talk a reluctant flyer to fly with me. I
> think that could prove disastrous in a liability sense.
>
> Lowell
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Cooper" <spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Slipping
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper"
<spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Roger Standley" <taildragon@msn.com>
> > To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Slipping
> >
> >
> > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Roger Standley"
<taildragon@msn.com>
> > >
> > > If flaps and a forward slip are needed to correct an approach, maybe a
> > go-around should be considered.
> >
> > No! NOT to correct an approach. To clear an ostacle on the approach end
of
> > the runway or short field landing.
> >
> > Steve
> >
> >
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: (Off Topic): gasoline |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud" <shoeless@barefootpilot.com>
Checking your competitors prices is NOT illegal. Colluding with them to fix
prices, is illegal.
>
> Michel,
> I hate to continue an off-topic conversation, but I have to address this
one
> point.
>
> "Every morning each petrol station rings around to know what the
competitors
> are asking for a liter of unlead that day.
> Then they adjust their prices to stay competitive."
>
> In just about every other business in the states, including mine, this is
> called "price fixing" and is illegal. Evidently it is not illegal for the
> gasoline suppliers. In the case of the gas dealers ringing around to
adjust
> prices, they do that to keep prices UP, not merely to be competitive.
>
> Don Pearsall
>
>
Message 16
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|
| Subject: | Skystar B/O parts |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Arthur Nation <anation@w-link.net>
To the List:
Has anyone received b/o items such as main gear, wheels, brake cylinders
during the past 6 months? Main gear either by Grove or Skystar mfg. for the
S7. Any Rotax engines?
You can reply either on or off list.
Thanks.
Arthur
Message 17
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| Subject: | Skystar B/O parts |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff.hays@aselia.com" <jeff.hays@aselia.com>
No, but according to Sport Pilot magazine which just came out, as soon
as the Sport Pilot rule becomes effective, Skystar is "ready" to start
producing as many as 100 airplanes a year ... (Per Skystar).
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Arthur Nation anation@w-link.net
Subject: Kitfox-List: Skystar B/O parts
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Arthur Nation <anation@w-link.net>
To the List:
Has anyone received b/o items such as main gear, wheels, brake cylinders
during the past 6 months? Main gear either by Grove or Skystar mfg. for the
S7. Any Rotax engines?
You can reply either on or off list.
Thanks.
Arthur
Message 18
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| Subject: | (Off Topic): gasoline |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Steve Zakreski <szakreski@shaw.ca>
The United States has one of the most unregulated, truly free-enterprise
economies in the world. It also has among the cheapest gasoline prices in
the world by a wide margin. Can one of you guys tell me (and I do not work
for the oil industry incidentally) what you guys are whining about here?
World oil reserves are truly depleting. The price of gas will continue to
increase. We'll use less as a result, which is good. It is nobody's fault,
it is just life. And life is good.
When it is too expensive to fly our Kitfoxes, we'll all be building gliders
and having just as much fun. Be happy.
SteveZ
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Clifford
Begnaud
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: (Off Topic): gasoline
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud"
<shoeless@barefootpilot.com>
Checking your competitors prices is NOT illegal. Colluding with them to fix
prices, is illegal.
>
> Michel,
> I hate to continue an off-topic conversation, but I have to address this
one
> point.
>
> "Every morning each petrol station rings around to know what the
competitors
> are asking for a liter of unlead that day.
> Then they adjust their prices to stay competitive."
>
> In just about every other business in the states, including mine, this is
> called "price fixing" and is illegal. Evidently it is not illegal for the
> gasoline suppliers. In the case of the gas dealers ringing around to
adjust
> prices, they do that to keep prices UP, not merely to be competitive.
>
> Don Pearsall
>
>
Message 19
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|
| Subject: | (Off Topic): gasoline |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Steve Zakreski <szakreski@shaw.ca>
Now Dwight...look what you started.
SteveZ
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Zakreski [mailto:szakreski@shaw.ca]
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: (Off Topic): gasoline
The United States has one of the most unregulated, truly free-enterprise
economies in the world. It also has among the cheapest gasoline prices in
the world by a wide margin. Can one of you guys tell me (and I do not work
for the oil industry incidentally) what you guys are whining about here?
World oil reserves are truly depleting. The price of gas will continue to
increase. We'll use less as a result, which is good. It is nobody's fault,
it is just life. And life is good.
When it is too expensive to fly our Kitfoxes, we'll all be building gliders
and having just as much fun. Be happy.
SteveZ
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Clifford
Begnaud
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: (Off Topic): gasoline
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud"
<shoeless@barefootpilot.com>
Checking your competitors prices is NOT illegal. Colluding with them to fix
prices, is illegal.
>
> Michel,
> I hate to continue an off-topic conversation, but I have to address this
one
> point.
>
> "Every morning each petrol station rings around to know what the
competitors
> are asking for a liter of unlead that day.
> Then they adjust their prices to stay competitive."
>
> In just about every other business in the states, including mine, this is
> called "price fixing" and is illegal. Evidently it is not illegal for the
> gasoline suppliers. In the case of the gas dealers ringing around to
adjust
> prices, they do that to keep prices UP, not merely to be competitive.
>
> Don Pearsall
>
>
Message 20
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|
| Subject: | Skystar B/O parts |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "rdmac" <rdmac@swbell.net>
Hi Arthur,
I realize you already know my situation by the e-mails we have shared but
I'll go ahead and put in my 2 cents. I am still waiting on main gear and
engine. My plane building is pretty much on hold till I get these items. I
would be curies to know how many others are completely shut down waiting on
parts. I made the comment to Arthur that misery loves company and I'm
starting to feel pretty miserable. It's becoming increasingly hard to read
these e-mails about finished and flying airplanes when mine sits 80%
complete waiting on two main items. Ok maybe this is more than 2 cents. I'll
get off my soap box now and back to lurking.
Roger Mac
S7/912s(maybe someday)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Arthur
Nation
Subject: Kitfox-List: Skystar B/O parts
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Arthur Nation <anation@w-link.net>
To the List:
Has anyone received b/o items such as main gear, wheels, brake cylinders
during the past 6 months? Main gear either by Grove or Skystar mfg. for the
S7. Any Rotax engines?
You can reply either on or off list.
Thanks.
Arthur
Message 21
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Graeme Toft" <msm@byterocky.net>
In Australia Guys we pay $1.00 a litre. With the distances we are required to travel
at times many people are paying over $100 a week just to get to and from
work and its not getting any better.
Graeme
Message 22
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "JMCBEAN" <JDMCBEAN@cableone.net>
OK.. back from flying..... what a great day.... With lots of slips.....
Anyone land a Pitts lately.... Tough to do without slipping..... :)
Blue Skies!!
John & Debra McBean
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of JMCBEAN
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Slipping
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "JMCBEAN" <JDMCBEAN@cableone.net>
I'm 2 cups behind you.. but getting ready to go fly....
I do need to remind that I was specific in mentioning 40 degree flaps.
152's do not have 40 degrees and neither does later model 150's or 172's.
I am also assuming that we are a power off slip to landing stall.. not a
whip stall or power on... A whip or power on stall will flip it over but a
slip to landing stall I have never experienced either to flip except for the
150 with full 40 degree flaps. I never did push the 172 to that limit
because the manual said it cautions against just like the 150 and I know
what the 150 did.
But again we are not flying Cessnas... I have done full rudder lock slips in
the Kitfox with and without flaps and with and without floats.. felt odd at
times but never un-safe.
Slips should part of any pilots repetoire.... Period.
PS.. I always wear the flame suit.... Standard issue.....
Blue Skies!!
John & Debra McBean
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
jeff.hays@aselia.com
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Slipping
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff.hays@aselia.com"
<jeff.hays@aselia.com>
Hope you got your flame suit on as well John, because "cautions"
and "prohibits" are two different things. Plus a 172, won't flip on
it back in a slip due to elevator blanking. A cross-controlled 172
or 152 will flip upside down pretty easily if stalled. BUT this has
nothing to do with flaps. Just the inherent stall characteristic of
these planes in a cross-controlled stall.
I have never flown a 150, but the 152's POH does NOT have any caution
against full flap slips.
We have had a C172 in the family for a number of years, and I have
flown in it when it was full flap slipped, and I have flown it myself
and slipped it with full flaps. It bob's around a lot. BUT never
did it flip upside down from that. If you don't know that they behave
that way, you can certainly scare yourself though.
My Kitfox buffets so badly as you approach a cross controlled stall,
you'd have to be really brain dead to miss all the racket from the
turtledeck.
Slips can be anything from a little bit of rudder to a LOT of rudder.
I would assert, that if they are not a standard part of a Kitfox
pilot's repetoire, that that pilot, doesn't really know how to fly
a Kitfox. Also that if somebody is not instructing this, that they are
not a good instructor. :)
Yep - About 6 cups of coffee so far today, bring it on!
Original Message:
-----------------
From: JMCBEAN JDMCBEAN@cableone.net
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Slipping
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "JMCBEAN" <JDMCBEAN@cableone.net>
Glad your flame suit is on :)...... If you are operating a Cessna 150 or
172 that has 40 degree flap available the POH cautions against full flap
forward slips. You may get away with mild but if you stall it.. it will
turn over on its back. But we are not flying Cessnas.....
Over 100 hours in the last 6 months in Kitfox's
Also, I teach slips and feel they are a very useful and safe tool if done
properly...
I also teach that once in the pattern one should always plan so that the
runway can be reached with a normal glide if the engine was to quit. This
makes the key position the most vulnerable position.
I can assure you that if you were to take a check ride and every landing
required a slip the examiner would question your planning and would wonder
why the instructor signed you off to take the ride. On the other hand... he
would applaud you if he was to pull the engine, you turn to the runway and
used a slip to bleed off altitude once the runway was made.
Jeff, you were on your 6th test flight..... any test flight should be
planned so that you can return to the airport. So that was smart of you to
have enough altitude to glide back and it was good that you knew how to slip
to bleed off the excess altitude once you got there.
Again... I use slips all the time because they are fun and it is good to
stay in practice.. especially for back country work. IMHO it should be used
as a tool not standard procedure.
Now for the humbling part... Last year I was flying with a very experienced
pilot in his Model IV Speedster.. We had had a very similar discussion
regarding slips earlier. As we had a great deal of fun flying it was time
to head back to his airport... He had invited me to do the landing. Low and
behold.. or maybe not so LOW, I was way too high on the approach... He
looked at me and laughed as I cranked it into a very aggressive slip to a
"don't let me screw up the" landing. Luck was on my side... :)
Blue Skies!!
John & Debra McBean
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
jeff.hays@aselia.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Slipping
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff.hays@aselia.com"
<jeff.hays@aselia.com>
I agree completely with Lowell, and in fact at the risk of insulting
somebody, I'd have to ask - Do you guys fly Kitfox's or just talk on
the list about it? Seriously, in my airplane, unless you want to start
descending on final from a LONG ways out, the only way to get the plane
down is with slips. On my sixth test flight, I was five miles out at
3000 ft. and my engine dropped dead (failed fuel pump). Not only did I
glide all the way back, but I had to slip like crazy to get down to the
runway. With one notch of flaperons, there's no discernable amount
of drag increase so that won't do it. And using the second notch messes
up the control feel/pressure so badly I don't like to use it at all.
A lot of this discussion sounds like discussing slips in a C172, and
just doesn't seem applicable to a Kitfox (My opinion). Plus in any
case, you can do full flap slips in a Cessna, it is not prohibited,
but rather cautioned against. What really happens, is it start's to
bob on you as the tail blanks out. Also in an Archer or Warrior, you
can get rudder/vertical tail stalls if you slip one of them hard also,
which makes the nose weave back and forth.
I also agree 100% with Lowell about first time flier's. I only take
passenger's who REALLY want to go fly. Having experienced flying
with somebody who is truly scared, is not an experience I want to
repeat. I don't see any point or purpose, of trying to work somebody
through fear of flying in small planes. It is an optional thing to
do in life, and there's no reason to try to get somebody to do it
unless they really want to to begin with. These people, aren't going
to have a problem with slips in any case.
Ok - Flame away. :)
Jeff
Message 23
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Gary Algate" <algate@attglobal.net>
Wow, has this caused some comments?
Summing up:
1 Slips are just another tool in the pilots arsenal
2 Sometimes a long final approach down the centre line can be dangerous -
Ie) low wing GA planes landing on top of you
3 Bush type pilots use slips more than tarmac "city slickers"
4 A slip does not mean a poor approach
5 If you have passengers - explain what you are doing - it doesn't take a
slip to upset a nervous passenger
6 My Mum is 80 and she enjoyed slip approaches on floats - I explained why,
and what I was doing
7 Slips in a Kitfox are not dangerous (even with flaps) and are a lot of fun
adding to precision and safety
Like every other aspect of flying, new things are a little scary yet
practice tames the beast. I would rather be high with an engine out and know
how to wash off that excess speed than be on a perfect long final and
experience an engine out. After all we're not flying BizJets here and (as my
instructor said)landing is the best part of flying.
Gary Algate
Lite2/582
Message 24
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "david yeamans" <dafox@ckt.net>
Hello John,
I didn't mean the snip to be toward Bob's comments but inregards
to the previous e-mail. I just thought everyone would get the drift.
( all of my instructors also told me when carrying passengers to initiate all
maneuvers as if your grandmother was sitting next to you! )
( All of my instructors ? ) Grandmother )
----- Original Message ----- David
From: JMCBEAN
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 10:34 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Slipping
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "JMCBEAN" <JDMCBEAN@cableone.net>
I did not read the initial thread as that being of a non-aviation related
passenger.. snip.... He says that slipping is very very unsafe....
However, you are very correct. First time fliers should be handled with kid
gloves... just give them great ride don't show off how much you know.
Blue Skies!!
John & Debra McBean
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of david yeamans
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Slipping
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "david yeamans" <dafox@ckt.net>
Hello Bob,
Sence you mentioned it, I'd like to comment on the well being of my
passengers. I first started flying my kitfox in april 2001. I've flown 91
first time passengers sence then, from 5 to 89 years old, and alot of them
many
times. I always ask them before we fly how they feel, if they are afraid,
or
have a fear of flying or really want to go flying. I had one college girl
that
admitted she had a fear af flying, but was trying to overcome it by flying.
She was the only one out of ninety one, and by talking and explaining
each manuever from takeoff to landing, and to all the passengers, it seems
to settle and relax them and if they have a fear, it usually is calmed down.
Most of all these passengers, including an 82 year old long time
friend,
and an 89 year old aunt has done the slip, and what my grandkids call the
roller coaster ride, A low high speed pass over the run way, and at the end
of the runway, pull it straight up and bring it over the top before it
stalls.They
all come back for more. I think its important to explain each maneuver
before you do it, and do it gently to gain their confidence.
I have a Cessna Skyhawk and have flown around 60 passengers, a lot
of Young Eagles, in both airplanes, and i guess I haven't flown a
grandmother
yet, but I've only had one instructor.
David
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Unternaehrer
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 1:37 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Slipping
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Unternaehrer"
<shilocom@c-magic.com>
I really hate to comment on this "Thread". But seems no body has
commented
on the comfort and well being of the passenger. More than one of you have
said something to the effect "I always use slips". I feel you should fly
airplanes smooth, straight and level so that any passenger is comfortable.
Personally I can do slips at any angle or decent rate but would rather go
around than do one with a "non-aviation" passenger aboard. I even
mentioned
to my son-in-law ( on his first flight) while close to the ground on final
approach, that we were a "little fast and might float a little" (because
he
and I are both heavy) and it gave him concern. We were approaching my 1200
ft strip and I imagine he thought it looked like a postage stamp anyhow,
as
I once did. He answered in a not so comfortable voice...."are we all
right". So be carefull how you impress unsusspecting passengers with
other
than straight flight. Bob U.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick" <turboflyer@comcast.net>
To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Slipping
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rick" <turboflyer@comcast.net>
>
> I do them on occasion, once at over 2000FPM, maybe more, needle was
pegged.
> Real nice if one comes in high, kick and stick it. Should have done it
from
> 17,800. It took a long time to get down....:)
>
> Rick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of JMCBEAN
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Slipping
>
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "JMCBEAN" <JDMCBEAN@cableone.net>
>
> I do not know.. However, I have slipped the 4, 5, 6 and 7 with all the
> different flap settings although I rarely use full flaps on these. If I
> remember correctly.. because the flaps on the 4 are friction lock they
> didn't like to stay completely deployed.
>
> One of the reasons Cessna doesn't want slips with full flaps was because
it
> would completely block out the tail... Especially with the 40 degree
flaps.
>
> Blue Skies!!
> John & Debra McBean
> "The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of jareds
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Slipping
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: jareds <jareds@verizon.net>
>
> John,
>
> Would you happen to know whether the designers allow for full flaps and
> a slip? Or even partial flaps and slip in the kitfox? I know some GA
> planes specify in the POH one or the other!
>
> JMCBEAN wrote:
>
> >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "JMCBEAN" <JDMCBEAN@cableone.net>
> >
> >For the record..... Slips are an arrow in a pilots quiver and are a
very
> >useful tool in a variety of situations. That being said, slips are one
> tool
> >that is used to help when a normal and stabilized approach was not
planned
> >correctly.
> >
> >For most, a normal and stabilized approach in a Kitfox is slipping.
> Because
> >it does it so well and it's so much fun !!
> >
> >Slipping is not un-safe if done correctly !!!
> >
> >Blue Skies!!
> >John & Debra McBean
> >"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> >[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
> >AlbertaIV@aol.com
> >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Kitfox-List: Slipping
> >
> >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
> >
> >The Rich Man has refused to fly with me again if I ever perform another
> slip
> >to landing again. He says that slipping is very very unsafe. I
disagree
> >but
> >he is terrified of a slip. What's the opinion of any instructors.
> >
> >BTW, I ease into the slip with rudder and opposite flapperon (nose into
the
> >wind) while maintaining runway centerline. I maintain between 50-60
MPH
> >during
> >the slip. Never do I attempt a slip near stall speed.
> >
> >Don Smythe
> >DO NOT ARCHIVE
> >
> >
>
>
> ---
>
>
---
Message 25
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Marc Arseneault" <northernultralights@hotmail.com>
Very well put Gary!
I am presently still in training and one of things I enjoy themost is practicing
a slip. I plan on putting the one of my Kitfox's on floats and I will be landing/taking
off from lakes that a helicopter wouldn't be able to land in. Just
joking! I do plan on landing in small lakes where a slip is the only way to come
in and taking off from this lake requires me not catching too many big fish
and eat all of the food I brought with me before taking off. I have been a passenger
since a young age in a Cessna 172 and my buddy uses slips all the time.Helands
in some holes that you wouldn't imagine with this bird and the only
way is by slipping her in. The one of my Kitfox's will be ready to fly in another
couple of weeks and I can't wait to get up there!
Best Regards,
Marc Arseneault
From: "Gary Algate" algate@attglobal.net Reply-To: kitfox-list@matronics.com To:
ki
tfox-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Slipping Date: Wed, 19 May 2004
21:25:37 -0800 -- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Gary Algate" algate@attglobal.net
Wow, has this caused some comments? Summing up: 1 Slips are just another
tool in the pilots arsenal 2 Sometimes a long final approach down the centre
line can be dangerous - Ie) low wing GA planes landing on top of you 3 Bush
type pilots use slips more than tarmac "city slickers" 4 A slip does not mean
a poor approach 5 If you have passengers - explain what you are doing - it doesn't
take a slip to upset a nervous passenger 6 My Mum is 80 and she enjoyed
slip approaches on floats - I explained why, and what I was doing 7 Slips in
a Kitfox are not dangerous (even with flaps) and are a lot of fun adding to precision
and safety Like every other aspect of flying, new things are a little
scary yet practice tames the beast. I would rather be high with an engine out
and know how to wash off that excess
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: (Off Topic): gasoline |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John E. King " <kingjohn@erols.com>
Steve,
It's all relative. When you are used to paying $1.50 a U.S. gallon for
92 octane, no lead and it jumps to well over $2.00 a gallon, you start
to take notice. Yes, I know that you guys north of our border and over
on the other side of the pond pay a lot more then we do, even now. The
biggest part of that difference is the tax levies imposed by the various
nations. However, in some of the more remote areas you have to pay more
for shipping it in. I'm really not complaining because I know in this
country, if we complain long enough, prices will return to more normal
levels. I still remember the oil shortage of 1973.
I can remember back when I was courting my future wife from Toronto,
Canada, the Canadian dollar was worth more than the U.S. dollar by at
least 5 cents. The Canadian gas station attendants would always remind
me of the difference. But when the situation later reversed, I had to
remind them. Do not archive.
--
John King
Warrenton, VA
Steve Zakreski wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Steve Zakreski <szakreski@shaw.ca>
>
>The United States has one of the most unregulated, truly free-enterprise
>economies in the world. It also has among the cheapest gasoline prices in
>the world by a wide margin. Can one of you guys tell me (and I do not work
>for the oil industry incidentally) what you guys are whining about here?
>World oil reserves are truly depleting. The price of gas will continue to
>increase. We'll use less as a result, which is good. It is nobody's fault,
>it is just life. And life is good.
>
>When it is too expensive to fly our Kitfoxes, we'll all be building gliders
>and having just as much fun. Be happy.
>
>SteveZ
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | removing protective film from flaperons. |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Eric Osmond <eoeonote@yahoo.com>
Does anyone have any suggestions to remove the
protective film from the flapersons. I have a model
4-1200. I'm finally ready for paint, but in the many
years that the plane has sat waiting for this time,
the film has become baked onto the aluminum. We've
tried MEK, and steam with no success. Any ideas?
Thanks
Eric
__________________________________
http://smallbusiness.promotions.yahoo.com/offer
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: removing protective film from flaperons. |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Forfun3@aol.com
Soak towels in paint thinner, mineral spirits, lay towels on the flaperons,
over night will free up plastic, and peels off easy.
Been there, done that
Tried heat, but the soaking method worked the best, all off in a couple of
days.
Ralph Boling
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: removing protective film from flaperons. |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Forfun3@aol.com
Also if you cloth's pin the towels around the flaperon you can do both sides
at once, it worked best doing about 4 to 6 feet at a time.
Ralph
Vixen/lyc235
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