Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:32 AM - Re: (Off Topic): gasoline (Michel Verheughe)
2. 02:37 AM - Re: Slipping (Paul Seehafer)
3. 03:41 AM - Re: Slipping (AlbertaIV@aol.com)
4. 04:05 AM - Re: removing protective film from flaperons. (Fox5flyer)
5. 04:35 AM - Re: (Off Topic): gasoline (dwight purdy)
6. 06:04 AM - Slipping (hausding, sid)
7. 07:06 AM - Re: Slipping (Lowell Fitt)
8. 07:08 AM - Wing Rigging (Jimmie Blackwell)
9. 07:16 AM - Re: (Off Topic): gasoline (Lowell Fitt)
10. 08:11 AM - Re: Slipping (Thomas Lee)
11. 08:28 AM - Re: (Off Topic): gasoline (Bruce Harrington)
12. 08:52 AM - Re: Slipping (jeff.hays@aselia.com)
13. 09:06 AM - Re: Slipping (Jeffry Larson)
14. 09:22 AM - Re: Mountain flying (Rick)
15. 10:12 AM - Re: Mountain flying (Fox5flyer)
16. 10:29 AM - Re: Mountain flying (jeff.hays@aselia.com)
17. 10:34 AM - Off Topic-Living in the North (Scott McClintock)
18. 11:10 AM - Re: Mountain flying (Steve Zakreski)
19. 11:31 AM - Mountain Flying (Scott McClintock)
20. 12:10 PM - Re: Off Topic-Living in the North (Matt Keyes)
21. 12:56 PM - Re: Mountain flying (Bob Unternaehrer)
22. 05:37 PM - Re: Mountain flying (JMCBEAN)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: (Off Topic): gasoline |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Steve Zakreski wrote:
> When it is too expensive to fly our Kitfoxes, we'll all be building gliders
> and having just as much fun. Be happy.
Yep, and we will start them by solar panel electrically-driven winches! :-)
Seriously, guys, I just want to say that I am not a leader but a follower. I
have no political, religious or philosophical opinion, I am too busy observing
and enjoying life, as long as we live in democracies.
Scott, I understand your point of view, as seen from Alaska. In Norway,
everything is quite expensive, from petrol to bananas. That's because we have
to distribute it over a very long, mountainous and sparely populated country.
If Torgeir, who lives in the north, has to eat a banana, I have, in the south,
to share the price of its transport. Otherwise no one could afford to live up there.
What should we do? I don't know. I am only too happy to follow the laws of my
country, voted in a democratic way. I am a follower, remember? :-)
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 2
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul Seehafer" <av8rps@tznet.com>
Fwiw - Have you guys ever seen the 747 video showing a big ol' slip right
down to the runway? I just reviewed the video twice to make sure it truly
was a slip, and sure enough it was. Incidentally, it was a perfect landing
that otherwise would have been a disaster.
I'd love you send this video to all of you, but I'm afraid my dial up
connection would require an awful long time to get it out. However, if
anyone is interested in sending this clip around on their own, I'd be happy
to send it to one of you.
Paul Seehafer
Wisconsin
----- Original Message -----
From: <AlbertaIV@aol.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Slipping
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
>
> The Rich Man has refused to fly with me again if I ever perform another
slip
> to landing again. He says that slipping is very very unsafe. I disagree
but
> he is terrified of a slip. What's the opinion of any instructors.
>
> BTW, I ease into the slip with rudder and opposite flapperon (nose into
the
> wind) while maintaining runway centerline. I maintain between 50-60 MPH
during
> the slip. Never do I attempt a slip near stall speed.
>
> Don Smythe
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
Message 3
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
In a message dated 5/19/04 8:33:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
JDMCBEAN@cableone.net writes:
> I did not read the initial thread as that being of a non-aviation related
> passenger.. snip.... He says that slipping is very very unsafe....
> However, you are very correct. First time fliers should be handled with kid
> gloves... just give them great ride don't show off how much you know.
>
>
John,
The original thread was concerning my passenger (The Rich Man). He has
flown all his life, been in two crashes, owns a Robinson and a twin Comanche.
I think he just doesn't understand a slip and for some reason, he feels they
are very dangerous. He actually became rude over the subject.
Don Smythe
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: removing protective film from flaperons. |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
As I recall, someone said they successfully used WD40. Don't know why it
worked, but that was the report. Lots of archives on this subject.
Darrel
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions to remove the
> protective film from the flapersons. I have a model
> 4-1200. I'm finally ready for paint, but in the many
> years that the plane has sat waiting for this time,
> the film has become baked onto the aluminum. We've
> tried MEK, and steam with no success. Any ideas?
> Thanks
> Eric
Message 5
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| Subject: | (Off Topic): gasoline |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: dwight purdy <dpurdy@comteck.com>
I said I was sorry. Still the responses keep coming . They are more
interesting than all the slip talk.
Dwight
At 04:35 PM 5/19/2004 -0600, you wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Steve Zakreski <szakreski@shaw.ca>
>
>Now Dwight...look what you started.
>
>SteveZ
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Steve Zakreski [mailto:szakreski@shaw.ca]
>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: (Off Topic): gasoline
>
>
>The United States has one of the most unregulated, truly free-enterprise
>economies in the world. It also has among the cheapest gasoline prices in
>the world by a wide margin. Can one of you guys tell me (and I do not work
>for the oil industry incidentally) what you guys are whining about here?
>World oil reserves are truly depleting. The price of gas will continue to
>increase. We'll use less as a result, which is good. It is nobody's fault,
>it is just life. And life is good.
>
>When it is too expensive to fly our Kitfoxes, we'll all be building gliders
>and having just as much fun. Be happy.
>
>SteveZ
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Clifford
>Begnaud
>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: (Off Topic): gasoline
>
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud"
><shoeless@barefootpilot.com>
>
>Checking your competitors prices is NOT illegal. Colluding with them to fix
>prices, is illegal.
>
> >
> > Michel,
> > I hate to continue an off-topic conversation, but I have to address this
>one
> > point.
> >
> > "Every morning each petrol station rings around to know what the
>competitors
> > are asking for a liter of unlead that day.
> > Then they adjust their prices to stay competitive."
> >
> > In just about every other business in the states, including mine, this is
> > called "price fixing" and is illegal. Evidently it is not illegal for the
> > gasoline suppliers. In the case of the gas dealers ringing around to
>adjust
> > prices, they do that to keep prices UP, not merely to be competitive.
> >
> > Don Pearsall
> >
> >
>
>
>---
>Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>Version: 6.0.684 / Virus Database: 446 - Release Date: 5/13/2004
---
Message 6
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "hausding, sid" <sidh@charter.net>
Send it on out Paul, we can then decide if its too big to pass on.........I
m on cable. Will pass along to any one that want it.
Sid
-------------------------
Fwiw - Have you guys ever seen the 747 video showing a big ol' slip right
down to the runway? I just reviewed the video twice to make sure it truly
was a slip, and sure enough it was. Incidentally, it was a perfect landing
that otherwise would have been a disaster.
I'd love you send this video to all of you, but I'm afraid my dial up
connection would require an awful long time to get it out. However, if
anyone is interested in sending this clip around on their own, I'd be happy
to send it to one of you.
Paul Seehafer
Wisconsin
Message 7
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
Paul, Is that the video of the 747 landing at HKG? There are some stills
on the net somewhere posted by a guy that collects unusual approach photos.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Seehafer" <av8rps@tznet.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Slipping
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul Seehafer" <av8rps@tznet.com>
>
> Fwiw - Have you guys ever seen the 747 video showing a big ol' slip right
> down to the runway? I just reviewed the video twice to make sure it truly
> was a slip, and sure enough it was. Incidentally, it was a perfect
landing
> that otherwise would have been a disaster.
>
> I'd love you send this video to all of you, but I'm afraid my dial up
> connection would require an awful long time to get it out. However, if
> anyone is interested in sending this clip around on their own, I'd be
happy
> to send it to one of you.
>
> Paul Seehafer
> Wisconsin
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <AlbertaIV@aol.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Slipping
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
> >
> > The Rich Man has refused to fly with me again if I ever perform another
> slip
> > to landing again. He says that slipping is very very unsafe. I
disagree
> but
> > he is terrified of a slip. What's the opinion of any instructors.
> >
> > BTW, I ease into the slip with rudder and opposite flapperon (nose into
> the
> > wind) while maintaining runway centerline. I maintain between 50-60 MPH
> during
> > the slip. Never do I attempt a slip near stall speed.
> >
> > Don Smythe
> > DO NOT ARCHIVE
> >
> >
>
>
Message 8
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jimmie Blackwell" <jablackwell@ev1.net>
I finished my wing rigging yesterday and want to pass on a thank you to all on
the list that assisted me. In spite of my fears it really was not all that hard
to do, just had to be careful.
One thing I learned is that all drill bits are not equal. I bought a $15.00 5/16"
drill bit for the spar to fuselage connection. Fortunately, I made a couple
of practice holes with it and keep thinking that the practice hole looked to
large. Measuring it I found that the bit was almost 7/16" which would have
messed up the spars. The drill bit was even stamped 5/16". Anyway, watch out
for drill bit sizes, I know I will forever be skeptical of sizes until I measure
them.
Again thanks to all for helping me.
Jimmie
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: (Off Topic): gasoline |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
Dwight, No problem from my end. One thought though. Government can have a
major role to play in gasoline prices. Here in California, our government,
trying to be the leader of the over protective almost smothering
governments, have mandated a gasoline formula different than any other place
on earth. About two years ago when we had an enormous spike in prices it
was because of a refinery fire and refinery scheduled maintenance issues
that took capacity off line and since no one else was formulating our brand
of gas, we paid the price. In Nevada, next door, fuel could be purchased
for almost $1 less per gallon, but it was illegal to send it across the
border.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "dwight purdy" <dpurdy@comteck.com>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: (Off Topic): gasoline
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: dwight purdy <dpurdy@comteck.com>
>
> I said I was sorry. Still the responses keep coming . They are more
> interesting than all the slip talk.
>
> Dwight
>
> At 04:35 PM 5/19/2004 -0600, you wrote:
>
> >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Steve Zakreski <szakreski@shaw.ca>
> >
> >Now Dwight...look what you started.
> >
> >SteveZ
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Steve Zakreski [mailto:szakreski@shaw.ca]
> >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: (Off Topic): gasoline
> >
> >
> >The United States has one of the most unregulated, truly free-enterprise
> >economies in the world. It also has among the cheapest gasoline prices
in
> >the world by a wide margin. Can one of you guys tell me (and I do not
work
> >for the oil industry incidentally) what you guys are whining about here?
> >World oil reserves are truly depleting. The price of gas will continue
to
> >increase. We'll use less as a result, which is good. It is nobody's
fault,
> >it is just life. And life is good.
> >
> >When it is too expensive to fly our Kitfoxes, we'll all be building
gliders
> >and having just as much fun. Be happy.
> >
> >SteveZ
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> >[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Clifford
> >Begnaud
> >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: (Off Topic): gasoline
> >
> >
> >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud"
> ><shoeless@barefootpilot.com>
> >
> >Checking your competitors prices is NOT illegal. Colluding with them to
fix
> >prices, is illegal.
> >
> > >
> > > Michel,
> > > I hate to continue an off-topic conversation, but I have to address
this
> >one
> > > point.
> > >
> > > "Every morning each petrol station rings around to know what the
> >competitors
> > > are asking for a liter of unlead that day.
> > > Then they adjust their prices to stay competitive."
> > >
> > > In just about every other business in the states, including mine, this
is
> > > called "price fixing" and is illegal. Evidently it is not illegal for
the
> > > gasoline suppliers. In the case of the gas dealers ringing around to
> >adjust
> > > prices, they do that to keep prices UP, not merely to be competitive.
> > >
> > > Don Pearsall
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >---
> >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> >Version: 6.0.684 / Virus Database: 446 - Release Date: 5/13/2004
>
>
> ---
>
>
Message 10
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Thomas Lee <thomasleekf@comcast.net>
Paul,
Please let me know how to get this video clip. Thanks.
thomas. Vixen 912 UL.
>
>Fwiw - Have you guys ever seen the 747 video showing a big ol' slip right
>down to the runway? I just reviewed the video twice to make sure it truly
>was a slip, and sure enough it was. Incidentally, it was a perfect landing
>that otherwise would have been a disaster.
>
>I'd love you send this video to all of you, but I'm afraid my dial up
>connection would require an awful long time to get it out. However, if
>anyone is interested in sending this clip around on their own, I'd be happy
>to send it to one of you.
>
>Paul Seehafer
>Wisconsin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: (Off Topic): gasoline |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Harrington" <aerowood@mcsi.net>
Hi Lowell,
So traffice on I-80 and I-50 increased by how much?
bh
June 12th coming fast
> Dwight, No problem from my end. One thought though. Government can have a
> major role to play in gasoline prices. Here in California, our government,
> trying to be the leader of the over protective almost smothering
> governments, have mandated a gasoline formula different than any other place
> on earth. About two years ago when we had an enormous spike in prices it
> was because of a refinery fire and refinery scheduled maintenance issues
> that took capacity off line and since no one else was formulating our brand
> of gas, we paid the price. In Nevada, next door, fuel could be purchased
> for almost $1 less per gallon, but it was illegal to send it across the
> border.
>
> Lowell
Message 12
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff.hays@aselia.com" <jeff.hays@aselia.com>
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/aviation_videos.htm
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Thomas Lee thomasleekf@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Slipping
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Thomas Lee <thomasleekf@comcast.net>
Paul,
Please let me know how to get this video clip. Thanks.
thomas. Vixen 912 UL.
>
>Fwiw - Have you guys ever seen the 747 video showing a big ol' slip right
>down to the runway? I just reviewed the video twice to make sure it truly
>was a slip, and sure enough it was. Incidentally, it was a perfect landing
>that otherwise would have been a disaster.
>
>I'd love you send this video to all of you, but I'm afraid my dial up
>connection would require an awful long time to get it out. However, if
>anyone is interested in sending this clip around on their own, I'd be happy
>to send it to one of you.
>
>Paul Seehafer
>Wisconsin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 13
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05/20/2004 10:03:30
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jeffry Larson <jeffryl@us.ibm.com>
John McBean and others
I have a question about slipping my Kitfox Lite. While I haven't tried a
normal slip in my 52 hours, I have taken advantage of the dirty
configuration of the Lite to correct for the lack of pilot experience in
getting it down to the runway.
With the Lite, I reduce throttle to idle, kick in full flaps, which
produces a serious nose down. The Lite, when at idle in this position only
seems to accelerate to 55-60 mph. This feels like it's "diving" to the
runway, but is easily slowed with a gentle leveling of the controls. This
puts me back on the right glide path, at which time, I kick the throttle
back up to 2700 and resume my normal approach speed of 40 mph. As I get
within 10-15 feet of the runway, this bleeds off quickly to 30ish before I
start to flair.
This allows me to put it down where I want to, even if I've really screwed
up the approach and come in way too high, which I tend to do, mostly
because I have 3800' of runway in front of me most of the time. I've never
gone even halfway down the runway, usually landing on the first 1/4. If I
come in on RW7 at Tracy, there is a cross runway (31) that is 300' from the
threshold. With the above technique, I'm always down and stopped before
crossing 31.
Is there anything wrong with this other than the fact that as I migrate to
slicker planes, I will have to undo this behavior in my brain? Any and all
comments are appreciated. With 8 GA hours and 14 Ultralight hours before I
started flying my Lite, I learn something each time and now realize that I
don't know all that much, but I can and will learn.
Jeffry Larson
MCSE - MCP+Internet
Advisory Software Engineer
Shark Open Systems Lab
San Jose, CA 95193
jeffryl@us.ibm.com
ext 66097
=
Message 14
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rick" <turboflyer@comcast.net>
I was just listening to an instructional tape the other day. I offer this in
the spirit of learning only. It was about surviving a crashes. Seems many
have been caught by canyons and tried the impossible when beyond the point
of no return. The least survivable crash in nose in. It was suggested ones
chances of survival would be better by hitting the trees head on to adsorb
some of the energy from the impact. Now, I know it would take some real
quick thinking and nerves of steel to say to ones self, I am not going to
make this turn, something is wrong, the terrain must be rising faster than I
can climb, I will hit those trees or pick a spot on the side of the
mountain. And who knows if most people, self included ,could make that
decision quick enough or at all. It is something to consider. If we stall
and spin in nose first it is the worst possible crash. Having wings torn
off, ground loops, flips and just about anything you can think of is better
than going in nose first. The tape series is by Rod Machado and is worth
every penny. May we all learn from the experience and sadly the ultimate
sacrifices of others.
Rick
Two engine fires
Canopy blow off at 130IAS
Engine failure, loss of oil pressure
Engine failure, valve stem separation at 150agl on take off
Turbo taken off line, exhaust failure, airborn, while on take off DA 10500
over water
Incursion by another pilot while on short final with oil all over my canopy
Both aircraft cleared for final, side to side, for same runway, could see
his eyes
Several nose wheel shimmies, pilot induced on landing, corrected
Landing flat nose wheel
Door pops open in flight, several incidents
Window open on take off,C172
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of kurt
schrader
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Mountain flying
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
<smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
I keep Andrew Wikstrom's account of Michael's last day
on my computer, along with some other Harter related
stuff. I don't know of anyone who didn't like him.
Andrew did an excellent job of recounting the day. He
included that the DA was about 9500' and that Michael
was just under the 1200# gross weight. They had
talked earlier about going over the Grand Canyon, but
Michael knew he could not make the 11,500' MSL
restriction easily enough to attempt it.
Michael did hug the left canyon wall before trying to
turn. I had forgotten that. Andrew was concerned
several times before that canyon about Mike's AGL
height and cautioned him. Andrew stayed about 800'
higher and still was insecure enough to turn out of
that canyon first while telling Michael to do the
same.
Then Andrew said, "I watched Michael as he made every
attempt to reverse his fate. I talked with him on the
radio as he tried everything in his power to bring his
plane out of that canyon."
This was shortly after another great man, Ray Volk,
died in his brother's arms when he crashed. I have
Ray's plane pictured on my computer too. It was one
of the first KitFox's I admired.
Sometimes we should review the pain so as not to re-do
the pain. IMHO
Kurt S.
--- KITFOXZ@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 5/5/2004 12:35:13 PM Eastern
> Standard Time,
> smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com writes:
> One last thing. It is very deceptive to try and
> find
> "level" in the mountains. Too often terrain is
> climbing and you don't know it until you notice your
> speed still falling off at full power and the
> terrain
> is getting closer. It is truely a hard thing to
> see.
> Always leave a way out, sooner is better than later.
>
> Kurt S.
> Kurt, This is good info that all of us should keep
> in mind. It is such a
> shame Mike Harter was lost to this very situation.
>
> John P. Marzluf
> Columbus, Ohio
> Outback, (out back in the garage)
__________________________________
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Mountain flying |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
Gee Rick. If all that stuff (even half of it) happened to me I'd be looking
for a different hobby.
Darrel
> Rick
>
> Two engine fires
> Canopy blow off at 130IAS
> Engine failure, loss of oil pressure
> Engine failure, valve stem separation at 150agl on take off
> Turbo taken off line, exhaust failure, airborn, while on take off DA 10500
> over water
> Incursion by another pilot while on short final with oil all over my
canopy
> Both aircraft cleared for final, side to side, for same runway, could see
> his eyes
> Several nose wheel shimmies, pilot induced on landing, corrected
> Landing flat nose wheel
> Door pops open in flight, several incidents
> Window open on take off,C172
Message 16
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff.hays@aselia.com" <jeff.hays@aselia.com>
Living in Colorado (Coal Creek Canyon (near Wondervu)) and learning
to fly in Colorado. One thing for sure. I fly in the mountains, one
as if the plane is a glider (i.e. working ridge lift and thermals),
second I don't fly in Canyon's (period), unless it is downhill and
I can see the exit ... and I generally fly high enough to be able to
glide to the next available emergency landing spot (which might mean
flying a few thousand feet above terrain). In the mountains (at least
in Colorado), if you happen to land in the mountains off airport, in
a controlled fashion, you might then have a heck of a long tumbling
ride down the face of some seriously ugly terrain (you see the Toyota
commercial where the girl's boyfriend's tacoma get's shoved off a cliff?
imagine that ride in an airplane BUT about 10 times farther to the
bottom). Hiking in the rockies can be a challenge in itself, driving a
car can be spooky on some of the roads. Landing in a canyon ... No Thanks!
Mountain flying kills lot's of people all the time, mostly because
people don't get a mountain instructor, and get a good checkout.
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Rick turboflyer@comcast.net
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Mountain flying
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rick" <turboflyer@comcast.net>
I was just listening to an instructional tape the other day. I offer this in
the spirit of learning only. It was about surviving a crashes. Seems many
have been caught by canyons and tried the impossible when beyond the point
of no return. The least survivable crash in nose in. It was suggested ones
chances of survival would be better by hitting the trees head on to adsorb
some of the energy from the impact. Now, I know it would take some real
quick thinking and nerves of steel to say to ones self, I am not going to
make this turn, something is wrong, the terrain must be rising faster than I
can climb, I will hit those trees or pick a spot on the side of the
mountain. And who knows if most people, self included ,could make that
decision quick enough or at all. It is something to consider. If we stall
and spin in nose first it is the worst possible crash. Having wings torn
off, ground loops, flips and just about anything you can think of is better
than going in nose first. The tape series is by Rod Machado and is worth
every penny. May we all learn from the experience and sadly the ultimate
sacrifices of others.
Rick
Two engine fires
Canopy blow off at 130IAS
Engine failure, loss of oil pressure
Engine failure, valve stem separation at 150agl on take off
Turbo taken off line, exhaust failure, airborn, while on take off DA 10500
over water
Incursion by another pilot while on short final with oil all over my canopy
Both aircraft cleared for final, side to side, for same runway, could see
his eyes
Several nose wheel shimmies, pilot induced on landing, corrected
Landing flat nose wheel
Door pops open in flight, several incidents
Window open on take off,C172
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of kurt
schrader
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Mountain flying
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
<smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
I keep Andrew Wikstrom's account of Michael's last day
on my computer, along with some other Harter related
stuff. I don't know of anyone who didn't like him.
Andrew did an excellent job of recounting the day. He
included that the DA was about 9500' and that Michael
was just under the 1200# gross weight. They had
talked earlier about going over the Grand Canyon, but
Michael knew he could not make the 11,500' MSL
restriction easily enough to attempt it.
Michael did hug the left canyon wall before trying to
turn. I had forgotten that. Andrew was concerned
several times before that canyon about Mike's AGL
height and cautioned him. Andrew stayed about 800'
higher and still was insecure enough to turn out of
that canyon first while telling Michael to do the
same.
Then Andrew said, "I watched Michael as he made every
attempt to reverse his fate. I talked with him on the
radio as he tried everything in his power to bring his
plane out of that canyon."
This was shortly after another great man, Ray Volk,
died in his brother's arms when he crashed. I have
Ray's plane pictured on my computer too. It was one
of the first KitFox's I admired.
Sometimes we should review the pain so as not to re-do
the pain. IMHO
Kurt S.
--- KITFOXZ@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 5/5/2004 12:35:13 PM Eastern
> Standard Time,
> smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com writes:
> One last thing. It is very deceptive to try and
> find
> "level" in the mountains. Too often terrain is
> climbing and you don't know it until you notice your
> speed still falling off at full power and the
> terrain
> is getting closer. It is truely a hard thing to
> see.
> Always leave a way out, sooner is better than later.
>
> Kurt S.
> Kurt, This is good info that all of us should keep
> in mind. It is such a
> shame Mike Harter was lost to this very situation.
>
> John P. Marzluf
> Columbus, Ohio
> Outback, (out back in the garage)
__________________________________
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover
Message 17
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| Subject: | Off Topic-Living in the North |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Scott McClintock <scott_mcclintock@dot.state.ak.us>
Michel wrote: If Torgeir, who lives in the north, has to eat a banana, I
have, in the south,
to share the price of its transport. Otherwise no one could afford to
live up there.
Michel,
Now that is a novel approach to cost sharing. How exactly does that
work? Is there much dissension from the "southerners" in regards to
subsidizing their "northern brothers"? Frankly, that sounds pretty
socialistic (communistic) to me :-)
For living up here in Bush Alaska, the State gives me a 30% cost of
living allowance over what my contemporaries in Anchorage or Fairbanks
receive. Unfortunately, it does not fully make up the difference. For
instance, a gallon of milk here costs $7.00, Anchorage and Fairbanks
folks pay only $2.99.
When the two grocery stores here receive fresh fruit, they place an add
on the local TV scanner channel to announce that arrival.
I or my wife will immediately rush down to purchase what we can (albeit
at ridiculously high prices) before it is all gone.
Now that the ground has thawed out some, I have begun construction on
my new house site, just four miles outside of "town". (no property
taxes)
The friend that I bought the property from allowed me to take the base
material from his pit at no charge and another friend with a loader and
dump truck only charged me $35 per 5 yard load. Yet another friend with
a D-4 CAT (dozer) charged me $70 per hour for his services.
Bottom line: one 12 foot wide, 150 foot long driveway with a 50 foot by
100 foot house pad cost me $6,000. This does not include the "topping"
of some washed rock which we will apply after the drive and pad dries
and settles. That's gonna cost me $85 per load and I will need about 10
or 15.
If I did not have these good friends to help me out on this project,
this would have cost me over $20,000.
I guess you really have to love living up in the frozen north to bear
all this. (By the way, it snowed again this AM and the convection fog
now is so thick that you can only see about 100 feet.)
Well, now I have to get on a Navajo and do a "tour" of some of our
village airports. Monday I will spend the day flying to: Kotzebue -
Shishmaref - then on to Gambell & Savoonga on St. Lawrence Island which
is so close to Russia that you can see the smoke from chimneys. Then
back to Nome. I will probably get "stuck" in Gambell as the heavy fog
will probably keep me on the ground till the following morning.
You guys down "South" enjoy your pleasant, warm weather. (GRRRRR)
Scott in Nome
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 18
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Steve Zakreski <szakreski@shaw.ca>
A local instructor (who I knew quite well) was killed two weeks ago near
Banff while giving a mountain checkout ride to another pilot. The other
pilot survived. We don't know the details yet, but the point is, it can
strike even an experienced instructor. The mountains are full of ambush
scenarios. I do a lot of mountain flying. I fly as high as my little
Kitfox will take me, often 12,500 asl which takes me 2 - 3,000 above most
local peaks.
SteveZ
IV/NSI/CAP
Calgary
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
jeff.hays@aselia.com
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Mountain flying
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff.hays@aselia.com"
<jeff.hays@aselia.com>
Living in Colorado (Coal Creek Canyon (near Wondervu)) and learning
to fly in Colorado. One thing for sure. I fly in the mountains, one
as if the plane is a glider (i.e. working ridge lift and thermals),
second I don't fly in Canyon's (period), unless it is downhill and
I can see the exit ... and I generally fly high enough to be able to
glide to the next available emergency landing spot (which might mean
flying a few thousand feet above terrain). In the mountains (at least
in Colorado), if you happen to land in the mountains off airport, in
a controlled fashion, you might then have a heck of a long tumbling
ride down the face of some seriously ugly terrain (you see the Toyota
commercial where the girl's boyfriend's tacoma get's shoved off a cliff?
imagine that ride in an airplane BUT about 10 times farther to the
bottom). Hiking in the rockies can be a challenge in itself, driving a
car can be spooky on some of the roads. Landing in a canyon ... No Thanks!
Mountain flying kills lot's of people all the time, mostly because
people don't get a mountain instructor, and get a good checkout.
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Rick turboflyer@comcast.net
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Mountain flying
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rick" <turboflyer@comcast.net>
I was just listening to an instructional tape the other day. I offer this in
the spirit of learning only. It was about surviving a crashes. Seems many
have been caught by canyons and tried the impossible when beyond the point
of no return. The least survivable crash in nose in. It was suggested ones
chances of survival would be better by hitting the trees head on to adsorb
some of the energy from the impact. Now, I know it would take some real
quick thinking and nerves of steel to say to ones self, I am not going to
make this turn, something is wrong, the terrain must be rising faster than I
can climb, I will hit those trees or pick a spot on the side of the
mountain. And who knows if most people, self included ,could make that
decision quick enough or at all. It is something to consider. If we stall
and spin in nose first it is the worst possible crash. Having wings torn
off, ground loops, flips and just about anything you can think of is better
than going in nose first. The tape series is by Rod Machado and is worth
every penny. May we all learn from the experience and sadly the ultimate
sacrifices of others.
Rick
Two engine fires
Canopy blow off at 130IAS
Engine failure, loss of oil pressure
Engine failure, valve stem separation at 150agl on take off
Turbo taken off line, exhaust failure, airborn, while on take off DA 10500
over water
Incursion by another pilot while on short final with oil all over my canopy
Both aircraft cleared for final, side to side, for same runway, could see
his eyes
Several nose wheel shimmies, pilot induced on landing, corrected
Landing flat nose wheel
Door pops open in flight, several incidents
Window open on take off,C172
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of kurt
schrader
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Mountain flying
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
<smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
I keep Andrew Wikstrom's account of Michael's last day
on my computer, along with some other Harter related
stuff. I don't know of anyone who didn't like him.
Andrew did an excellent job of recounting the day. He
included that the DA was about 9500' and that Michael
was just under the 1200# gross weight. They had
talked earlier about going over the Grand Canyon, but
Michael knew he could not make the 11,500' MSL
restriction easily enough to attempt it.
Michael did hug the left canyon wall before trying to
turn. I had forgotten that. Andrew was concerned
several times before that canyon about Mike's AGL
height and cautioned him. Andrew stayed about 800'
higher and still was insecure enough to turn out of
that canyon first while telling Michael to do the
same.
Then Andrew said, "I watched Michael as he made every
attempt to reverse his fate. I talked with him on the
radio as he tried everything in his power to bring his
plane out of that canyon."
This was shortly after another great man, Ray Volk,
died in his brother's arms when he crashed. I have
Ray's plane pictured on my computer too. It was one
of the first KitFox's I admired.
Sometimes we should review the pain so as not to re-do
the pain. IMHO
Kurt S.
--- KITFOXZ@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 5/5/2004 12:35:13 PM Eastern
> Standard Time,
> smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com writes:
> One last thing. It is very deceptive to try and
> find
> "level" in the mountains. Too often terrain is
> climbing and you don't know it until you notice your
> speed still falling off at full power and the
> terrain
> is getting closer. It is truely a hard thing to
> see.
> Always leave a way out, sooner is better than later.
>
> Kurt S.
> Kurt, This is good info that all of us should keep
> in mind. It is such a
> shame Mike Harter was lost to this very situation.
>
> John P. Marzluf
> Columbus, Ohio
> Outback, (out back in the garage)
__________________________________
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover
Message 19
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Scott McClintock <scott_mcclintock@dot.state.ak.us>
Rick wrote: I was just listening to an instructional tape the other day.
I have a good friend who survived a mountainside crash a couple of years
ago. He suffered a catastrophic engine failure in a C-172 while flying
across Admiralty Island in SE Alaska. His technique was to fly as normal
an approach to landing as possible with the tree tops as his target.
He said that his intention was to stall the plane just as he touched the
tops.
Apparently, this method worked as I will be seeing him in a few weeks
and we will be flying his Husky.
Scott in Nome
PS Yes, the Cessna was totaled
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Off Topic-Living in the North |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Matt Keyes <keyesmp@yahoo.com>
Scott, Michel,
Thanks for sharing a bit of northern living with the rest of us. I think many
of us take it for granted and have very romatic ideas of what it is like to live
Up North. I offer this thought. We all make choices and choosing where to
live is one of the biggest, affecting our daily lives more than we realize some
simes, but non-the-less, it is still our own choice.
Matt
---------------------------------
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Mountain flying |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Unternaehrer" <shilohcom@c-magic.com>
Hiking in the rockies can be a challenge in itself, driving a
car can be spooky on some of the roads. Landing in a canyon ... No Thanks!
Good Master card commercial.
----- Original Message -----
From: <jeff.hays@aselia.com>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Mountain flying
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff.hays@aselia.com"
<jeff.hays@aselia.com>
>
>
> Living in Colorado (Coal Creek Canyon (near Wondervu)) and learning
> to fly in Colorado. One thing for sure. I fly in the mountains, one
> as if the plane is a glider (i.e. working ridge lift and thermals),
> second I don't fly in Canyon's (period), unless it is downhill and
> I can see the exit ... and I generally fly high enough to be able to
> glide to the next available emergency landing spot (which might mean
> flying a few thousand feet above terrain). In the mountains (at least
> in Colorado), if you happen to land in the mountains off airport, in
> a controlled fashion, you might then have a heck of a long tumbling
> ride down the face of some seriously ugly terrain (you see the Toyota
> commercial where the girl's boyfriend's tacoma get's shoved off a cliff?
> imagine that ride in an airplane BUT about 10 times farther to the
> bottom). Hiking in the rockies can be a challenge in itself, driving a
> car can be spooky on some of the roads. Landing in a canyon ... No Thanks!
>
> Mountain flying kills lot's of people all the time, mostly because
> people don't get a mountain instructor, and get a good checkout.
>
>
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: Rick turboflyer@comcast.net
> Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 09:19:27 -0700
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Mountain flying
>
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rick" <turboflyer@comcast.net>
>
> I was just listening to an instructional tape the other day. I offer this
in
> the spirit of learning only. It was about surviving a crashes. Seems many
> have been caught by canyons and tried the impossible when beyond the point
> of no return. The least survivable crash in nose in. It was suggested ones
> chances of survival would be better by hitting the trees head on to adsorb
> some of the energy from the impact. Now, I know it would take some real
> quick thinking and nerves of steel to say to ones self, I am not going to
> make this turn, something is wrong, the terrain must be rising faster than
I
> can climb, I will hit those trees or pick a spot on the side of the
> mountain. And who knows if most people, self included ,could make that
> decision quick enough or at all. It is something to consider. If we stall
> and spin in nose first it is the worst possible crash. Having wings torn
> off, ground loops, flips and just about anything you can think of is
better
> than going in nose first. The tape series is by Rod Machado and is worth
> every penny. May we all learn from the experience and sadly the ultimate
> sacrifices of others.
>
> Rick
>
> Two engine fires
> Canopy blow off at 130IAS
> Engine failure, loss of oil pressure
> Engine failure, valve stem separation at 150agl on take off
> Turbo taken off line, exhaust failure, airborn, while on take off DA 10500
> over water
> Incursion by another pilot while on short final with oil all over my
canopy
> Both aircraft cleared for final, side to side, for same runway, could see
> his eyes
> Several nose wheel shimmies, pilot induced on landing, corrected
> Landing flat nose wheel
> Door pops open in flight, several incidents
> Window open on take off,C172
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of kurt
> schrader
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Mountain flying
>
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
> <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
>
> I keep Andrew Wikstrom's account of Michael's last day
> on my computer, along with some other Harter related
> stuff. I don't know of anyone who didn't like him.
>
> Andrew did an excellent job of recounting the day. He
> included that the DA was about 9500' and that Michael
> was just under the 1200# gross weight. They had
> talked earlier about going over the Grand Canyon, but
> Michael knew he could not make the 11,500' MSL
> restriction easily enough to attempt it.
>
> Michael did hug the left canyon wall before trying to
> turn. I had forgotten that. Andrew was concerned
> several times before that canyon about Mike's AGL
> height and cautioned him. Andrew stayed about 800'
> higher and still was insecure enough to turn out of
> that canyon first while telling Michael to do the
> same.
>
> Then Andrew said, "I watched Michael as he made every
> attempt to reverse his fate. I talked with him on the
> radio as he tried everything in his power to bring his
> plane out of that canyon."
>
> This was shortly after another great man, Ray Volk,
> died in his brother's arms when he crashed. I have
> Ray's plane pictured on my computer too. It was one
> of the first KitFox's I admired.
>
> Sometimes we should review the pain so as not to re-do
> the pain. IMHO
>
> Kurt S.
>
> --- KITFOXZ@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 5/5/2004 12:35:13 PM Eastern
> > Standard Time,
> > smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com writes:
> > One last thing. It is very deceptive to try and
> > find
> > "level" in the mountains. Too often terrain is
> > climbing and you don't know it until you notice your
> > speed still falling off at full power and the
> > terrain
> > is getting closer. It is truely a hard thing to
> > see.
> > Always leave a way out, sooner is better than later.
> >
> > Kurt S.
> > Kurt, This is good info that all of us should keep
> > in mind. It is such a
> > shame Mike Harter was lost to this very situation.
> >
> > John P. Marzluf
> > Columbus, Ohio
> > Outback, (out back in the garage)
>
>
> __________________________________
> http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover
>
>
> ---
>
>
---
Message 22
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "JMCBEAN" <JDMCBEAN@cableone.net>
Read and Heed !!! Back country flying can be some of the most rewarding and
scenic flying one can do.
Mountain flying kills lot's of people all the time, mostly because
people don't get a mountain instructor, and get a good checkout.
Blue Skies!!
John & Debra McBean
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
jeff.hays@aselia.com
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Mountain flying
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff.hays@aselia.com"
<jeff.hays@aselia.com>
Living in Colorado (Coal Creek Canyon (near Wondervu)) and learning
to fly in Colorado. One thing for sure. I fly in the mountains, one
as if the plane is a glider (i.e. working ridge lift and thermals),
second I don't fly in Canyon's (period), unless it is downhill and
I can see the exit ... and I generally fly high enough to be able to
glide to the next available emergency landing spot (which might mean
flying a few thousand feet above terrain). In the mountains (at least
in Colorado), if you happen to land in the mountains off airport, in
a controlled fashion, you might then have a heck of a long tumbling
ride down the face of some seriously ugly terrain (you see the Toyota
commercial where the girl's boyfriend's tacoma get's shoved off a cliff?
imagine that ride in an airplane BUT about 10 times farther to the
bottom). Hiking in the rockies can be a challenge in itself, driving a
car can be spooky on some of the roads. Landing in a canyon ... No Thanks!
Mountain flying kills lot's of people all the time, mostly because
people don't get a mountain instructor, and get a good checkout.
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Rick turboflyer@comcast.net
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Mountain flying
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rick" <turboflyer@comcast.net>
I was just listening to an instructional tape the other day. I offer this in
the spirit of learning only. It was about surviving a crashes. Seems many
have been caught by canyons and tried the impossible when beyond the point
of no return. The least survivable crash in nose in. It was suggested ones
chances of survival would be better by hitting the trees head on to adsorb
some of the energy from the impact. Now, I know it would take some real
quick thinking and nerves of steel to say to ones self, I am not going to
make this turn, something is wrong, the terrain must be rising faster than I
can climb, I will hit those trees or pick a spot on the side of the
mountain. And who knows if most people, self included ,could make that
decision quick enough or at all. It is something to consider. If we stall
and spin in nose first it is the worst possible crash. Having wings torn
off, ground loops, flips and just about anything you can think of is better
than going in nose first. The tape series is by Rod Machado and is worth
every penny. May we all learn from the experience and sadly the ultimate
sacrifices of others.
Rick
Two engine fires
Canopy blow off at 130IAS
Engine failure, loss of oil pressure
Engine failure, valve stem separation at 150agl on take off
Turbo taken off line, exhaust failure, airborn, while on take off DA 10500
over water
Incursion by another pilot while on short final with oil all over my canopy
Both aircraft cleared for final, side to side, for same runway, could see
his eyes
Several nose wheel shimmies, pilot induced on landing, corrected
Landing flat nose wheel
Door pops open in flight, several incidents
Window open on take off,C172
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of kurt
schrader
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Mountain flying
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
<smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
I keep Andrew Wikstrom's account of Michael's last day
on my computer, along with some other Harter related
stuff. I don't know of anyone who didn't like him.
Andrew did an excellent job of recounting the day. He
included that the DA was about 9500' and that Michael
was just under the 1200# gross weight. They had
talked earlier about going over the Grand Canyon, but
Michael knew he could not make the 11,500' MSL
restriction easily enough to attempt it.
Michael did hug the left canyon wall before trying to
turn. I had forgotten that. Andrew was concerned
several times before that canyon about Mike's AGL
height and cautioned him. Andrew stayed about 800'
higher and still was insecure enough to turn out of
that canyon first while telling Michael to do the
same.
Then Andrew said, "I watched Michael as he made every
attempt to reverse his fate. I talked with him on the
radio as he tried everything in his power to bring his
plane out of that canyon."
This was shortly after another great man, Ray Volk,
died in his brother's arms when he crashed. I have
Ray's plane pictured on my computer too. It was one
of the first KitFox's I admired.
Sometimes we should review the pain so as not to re-do
the pain. IMHO
Kurt S.
--- KITFOXZ@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 5/5/2004 12:35:13 PM Eastern
> Standard Time,
> smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com writes:
> One last thing. It is very deceptive to try and
> find
> "level" in the mountains. Too often terrain is
> climbing and you don't know it until you notice your
> speed still falling off at full power and the
> terrain
> is getting closer. It is truely a hard thing to
> see.
> Always leave a way out, sooner is better than later.
>
> Kurt S.
> Kurt, This is good info that all of us should keep
> in mind. It is such a
> shame Mike Harter was lost to this very situation.
>
> John P. Marzluf
> Columbus, Ohio
> Outback, (out back in the garage)
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