---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 05/26/04: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:57 AM - vortex generators (Fox5flyer) 2. 07:08 AM - Kitfox 2-stroke maintenance and FAA regulations (Mike Peters) 3. 07:24 AM - Re: Kitfox 2-stroke maintenance and FAA regulations (AlbertaIV@aol.com) 4. 10:01 AM - Re: Kitfox 2-stroke maintenance and FAA regulations (u2drvr@dslextreme.com) 5. 11:22 AM - Flaperon Reflex (Lmar) 6. 11:24 AM - Re: vortex generators (Don) 7. 11:32 AM - Kiev Hot Prop (Don) 8. 11:32 AM - Re: Kitfox 2-stroke maintenance and FAA regulations (Mike Peters) 9. 12:14 PM - Re: Gap sealing (Michel Verheughe) 10. 02:10 PM - Re: Kiev Hot Prop (Graeme Toft) 11. 02:43 PM - Re: Kitfox 2-stroke maintenance and FAA regulations (AlbertaIV@aol.com) 12. 05:21 PM - Paint a picture (Graeme Toft) 13. 05:27 PM - Re: aluminum (John E. King) 14. 06:39 PM - Re: aluminum (MikeReiman@webtv.net (The Reiman Corporation)) 15. 06:58 PM - Re: Kitfox 2-stroke maintenance and FAA regulations (MikeReiman@webtv.net (The Reiman Corporation)) 16. 10:40 PM - Re: Gap sealing (jimshumaker) 17. 11:01 PM - Re: vortex generators (jimshumaker) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:57:26 AM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Kitfox-List: vortex generators --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" Jim, do you have any pics of the installation of your VGs that you could post on sportflight? Also, how much noticeable difference did you experience when you changed to VGs? Do you make your own and if so, what do you use as a material including dimensions? Any change in cruise speed? Too many questions? Thanks, Darrel > Now what have I been telling you about Vortex Generators? Would you like me > to send you a few? > Jim Shumaker ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:08:38 AM PST US From: Mike Peters Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox 2-stroke maintenance and FAA regulations --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Mike Peters I am buying a plane already built and it has a Rotax 582. It is a registered plane and I have a PPSEL. I will not have the repairmen's certificate, so how do those that are in a similar situation maintain the engine??? An A&P is required to work on it, according to the FAA, but there are few or none knowledgable in 2-stoke maintenance or willing to work on them. I would much prefer to send it off to a Rotax service center, but that doesn't seem to meet the FAA requirements. I would like to keep the logs in order for resale. There are plenty of Kitfox owners that are in the same boat. What do you do??? Mike Peters __________________________________ http://messenger.yahoo.com/ ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:24:21 AM PST US From: AlbertaIV@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox 2-stroke maintenance and FAA regulations --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com In a message dated 5/26/04 7:10:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mjp103@yahoo.com writes: > > I am buying a plane already built and it has a Rotax > 582. It is a registered plane and I have a PPSEL. I > will not have the repairmen's certificate, so how do > those that are in a similar situation maintain the > engine??? > > An A&P is required to work on it, according to the > FAA, but there are few or none knowledgable in 2-stoke > maintenance or willing to work on them. I would much > prefer to send it off to a Rotax service center, but > that doesn't seem to meet the FAA requirements. I > would like to keep the logs in order for resale. > > There are plenty of Kitfox owners that are in the same > boat. What do you do??? > > Mike, I'm only guessing here but I think you should be able to do all the required daily maintenance without a repairman's cert. That is, change/clean the filters, jets, etc. that's required for daily flight operation. On the part about the FAA not allowing an authorized Rotax facility to do work on the engine surprises me. A question,,,, couldn't/wouldn't a Rotax repair facility be willing to enter maintenance information into an owners engine log. This sounds like a Bob Robertson answer? Don Smythe DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:01:00 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox 2-stroke maintenance and FAA regulations From: u2drvr@dslextreme.com --> Kitfox-List message posted by: u2drvr@dslextreme.com The aircraft should be registered as experimental-amateur built and FAR Part 43 specifically states that the rules of that part do not apply to experimental, amateur-built aircraft. You can perform any and all maintenance yourself or have anyone else you want do it. The only thing the repairman certificate allows you to do is to sign off the annual condition inspection. You will have to have the annual signed off by an A&P (IA not required). This is one of the great things about experimental aircraft because it keeps operating costs very low. Enjoy your new toy! Brian Peck AlbertaIV@aol.com > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com > > In a message dated 5/26/04 7:10:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > mjp103@yahoo.com > writes: > > >> >> I am buying a plane already built and it has a Rotax >> 582. It is a registered plane and I have a PPSEL. I >> will not have the repairmen's certificate, so how do >> those that are in a similar situation maintain the >> engine??? >> >> An A&P is required to work on it, according to the >> FAA, but there are few or none knowledgable in 2-stoke >> maintenance or willing to work on them. I would much >> prefer to send it off to a Rotax service center, but >> that doesn't seem to meet the FAA requirements. I >> would like to keep the logs in order for resale. >> >> There are plenty of Kitfox owners that are in the same >> boat. What do you do??? >> >> > > Mike, > I'm only guessing here but I think you should be able to do all the > required daily maintenance without a repairman's cert. That is, > change/clean the > filters, jets, etc. that's required for daily flight operation. > On the part about the FAA not allowing an authorized Rotax facility to > do > work on the engine surprises me. A question,,,, couldn't/wouldn't a Rotax > repair facility be willing to enter maintenance information into an owners > engine log. > This sounds like a Bob Robertson answer? > > Don Smythe > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:22:29 AM PST US From: Lmar Subject: Kitfox-List: Flaperon Reflex --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lmar Does the Kitfox "reflex", (that is tailing edge of the flaperon up with 0 flaps selected) the flaperons on models that incorporate an elevator trim tab? Thanks, Larry --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:24:54 AM PST US From: "Don" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: vortex generators --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don" I have been flying with VGs since May 2002. I love them, my indicated stall speed is now 30 mph, plus the airplane is very stable. I have some articles that should be in the archives, dated, 3/21/02, 5/19/02 and 5/20/02. Don 582 Mod4 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Kitfox-List: vortex generators > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" > > Jim, do you have any pics of the installation of your VGs that you could > post on sportflight? Also, how much noticeable difference did you > experience when you changed to VGs? Do you make your own and if so, what do > you use as a material including dimensions? Any change in cruise speed? > Too many questions? > Thanks, > Darrel > > > Now what have I been telling you about Vortex Generators? Would you like > me > > to send you a few? > > Jim Shumaker > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:32:10 AM PST US From: "Don" Subject: Kitfox-List: Kiev Hot Prop --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don" Anyone on the list know about anyone that is using this prop on a Kitfox. Don ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:32:29 AM PST US From: Mike Peters Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox 2-stroke maintenance and FAA regulations --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Mike Peters Hi Don! I guess I am under the impression, after speaking to an A&P, that an A&P would need to sign off the engine work. Are there A&P's that are willing to do that without knowing the quality of service that you are getting from the 3rd party service center. He's putting his name on the line, isn't he??? Mike --- AlbertaIV@aol.com wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com > > In a message dated 5/26/04 7:10:03 AM Pacific > Daylight Time, mjp103@yahoo.com > writes: > > > > > > I am buying a plane already built and it has a > Rotax > > 582. It is a registered plane and I have a PPSEL. > I > > will not have the repairmen's certificate, so how > do > > those that are in a similar situation maintain the > > engine??? > > > > An A&P is required to work on it, according to the > > FAA, but there are few or none knowledgable in > 2-stoke > > maintenance or willing to work on them. I would > much > > prefer to send it off to a Rotax service center, > but > > that doesn't seem to meet the FAA requirements. I > > would like to keep the logs in order for resale. > > > > There are plenty of Kitfox owners that are in the > same > > boat. What do you do??? > > > > > > Mike, > I'm only guessing here but I think you should be > able to do all the > required daily maintenance without a repairman's > cert. That is, change/clean the > filters, jets, etc. that's required for daily flight > operation. > On the part about the FAA not allowing an > authorized Rotax facility to do > work on the engine surprises me. A question,,,, > couldn't/wouldn't a Rotax > repair facility be willing to enter maintenance > information into an owners > engine log. > This sounds like a Bob Robertson answer? > > Don Smythe > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > http://www.matronics.com/chat > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > __________________________________ http://messenger.yahoo.com/ ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:14:32 PM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Gap sealing --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe jimshumaker wrote: > Now what have I been telling you about Vortex Generators? Would you like me > to send you a few? Hello Jim, I have tried to follow the thread about Vortex Generator a while ago. I think I understand the principle but ... you mean to have them on the wings and not the horizontal stab, right? This then would be in order to reduce my stall speed, correct? Of course, it would be very kind of you to send me a few but before, there are a few things I need to understand. Note that I had that question for a while but wasn't sure. Here it is: From what I could measure, the angle my plane makes with the horizontal plane, when on the ground, is roughly 16 degrees. I understand that my model 3 undercambered wing won't stall with less than say, 20 degrees of AoA. If after the flare, I keep the plane a few feet over the ground at say, 16 degrees of AoA, will I ever stall before the lift is reduced and I touch the ground? In other words, if the Vortex Generators will keep the flow of air over the wing with energy, thus preventing the stall, with it help at 16 degrees AoA? I am pretty sure I miss something here but I don't know what. Cheers, Michel ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:10:16 PM PST US From: "Graeme Toft" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kiev Hot Prop --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Graeme Toft" Don, I have a mate down the road from me who is using this prop. It is Russian and really well put together. He is using it on an Australian made Lightwing which is powered by a Rotax 912S. He recently converted from an 80 HP and changed the prop at the same time. The performance is remarkable. With this combination he is getting 1000-1200 a minute on the VSI.although not a lot of difference in top end or cruise speed. The appearance of the prop is great as it is carbon fibre and has a translucent look about it. It is ground adjustable and comes with a spinner. He paid $1000 Australian which currently converts to around $750US. Hope this helps. Cheers Graeme ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don" Subject: Kitfox-List: Kiev Hot Prop > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don" > > Anyone on the list know about anyone that is using this prop on a Kitfox. Don > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:43:38 PM PST US From: AlbertaIV@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox 2-stroke maintenance and FAA regulations --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com Hi Don! I guess I am under the impression, after speaking to an A&P, that an A&P would need to sign off the engine work. Are there A&P's that are willing to do that without knowing the quality of service that you are getting from the 3rd party service center. He's putting his name on the line, isn't he??? Mike Mike, I think the question has already been answered. You can do anything to that engine you want or feel comfortable doing. The work doesn't need to be signed off. However, the yearly conditional needs a sign off by an A&P if you don't have a repairman's cert. I don't know how hard it will be to get an A&P to sign off on an Exp plane. I guess some will do it if the price is right. Then again, there are some that wouldn't touch it at any price. Be careful about A&P's. Some aren't as smart as you might think when it comes to Exp. planes. I'm in the process of doing my conditional inspection now and yesterday an A&P told my hanger mate that "I" couldn't sign off the annual. I do have a repairman's cert. Don Smythe DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:21:48 PM PST US From: "Graeme Toft" Subject: Kitfox-List: Paint a picture --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Graeme Toft" Hi Guys, as a relative new comer to the list I am constantly amazed at the experience and skills you have with the various aircraft you fly. Its a great source of information and an incredibly effective way of helping those of us who do not have those attributes yet. Many of you come from the USA, Canada, Alaska, Scandinavia and other wonderful places. Why then cant we get something going about where it is you live, why you live there and the flying condition you experience. I love reading Scotts emails because he adds something special by including his home and environment. Each time I read the name Nome it conjures up pictures of gold mining towns, cold conditions and hard men. It also starts me off singing North to Alaska, a song I love. I know that Michel is in Scandinavia somewhere and I know its a beautiful place having gone there in 1996. The descriptions of canyon flying are awesome for someone like myself who lives in a country where the mountains are pimples in comparison. Pre-empting turbulence and knowing where and when to fly there are skills that should be passed on. Who wants to start. Tell us all about your home. Cheers Graeme ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:27:35 PM PST US From: "John E. King " Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: aluminum --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John E. King " Dave, You can often pick up various pieces of aluminum at auto junk yards that collect scrap metal from various industries. They sell it by the pound. Also some local hardware stores often sell sheet aluminum, as well as various angles. -- John King Warrenton, VA Dave & Darlene wrote: >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave & Darlene" > >Hi All >'m in the process of getting together metal, etc for my XL. I live in Alberta, just west of Edmonton. I'm looking for a builder who might have some extra metal kicking around. I realize there are many different sizes of angles,sheeting that we need. I can access the most common, but there are some that can only be ordered by the 4x12 sheet. Most of the sheet is never needed and there seems to be much left over. I would be willing to pay fair price plus shipping. I just think this would be a lettle more less expensive then buying a whole sheet or a long length of angle only to use a small piece of it. It would probably only be worthwhile getting this from a canadian as shipping cross the border can get expensive. Any thoughts from the group are welcome. >Dave >dnimigon@telusplanet.net > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:39:52 PM PST US From: MikeReiman@webtv.net (The Reiman Corporation) Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: aluminum 2004 20:28:05 -0400 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: MikeReiman@webtv.net (The Reiman Corporation) I'm not sure how I got your e-mail, but let me tell you as an A&P you don't want to use odd hardware grade aluminum on any aircraft. It will corrode because it doesn't have the "Alclad" pure aluminum coating which is on both sides about 6% deep. Get your stock from an aircraft supplier, f not the kit plane company itself. Anyway, I will be happy to help you for free with any questions. I would always follow the basic rule that if it's worth doing.. It's worth doing right! Okay enough... Soft Landings, Mike Reiman The Reiman Corporation, CEO 2505 South Ocean Boulevard Palm Beach, Florida 33480 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:58:17 PM PST US From: MikeReiman@webtv.net (The Reiman Corporation) Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox 2-stroke maintenance and FAA regulations --> Kitfox-List message posted by: MikeReiman@webtv.net (The Reiman Corporation) Not sure how I got your e-mail, but I'm an A&P. Your friend is right.... There are some A&P's I wouldn't trust to fix a model airplane. Best to ask around your field to know who knows their stuff. Not sure where you guys are based, but I'm in Lantana, Florida. Oh, Anyone know where there might be a Grumman Tiger for sale? Looking for one. Respectfully, Mike Reiman The Reiman Corporation, CEO 2505 South Ocean Boulevard Palm Beach, Florida 33480 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:40:45 PM PST US From: "jimshumaker" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Gap sealing --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jimshumaker" Oh Michel.... You ask questions that require long answers. It is late so I will try to start the answer tonight and then fill it in more tomorrow if you like. There is probably someone out there who can answer better and hopefully they will help me here. The short answer to your question is yes...mostly. First the VG's go on the wing. I have no camber on my horizontal stab so they did not help my elevator power in any location I tried. Yes, they will reduce the stall speed, thus reducing your approach speed and shortening the landing roll and the length of the landing field required. On the degrees of AoA, I have not measured, but you seem to be pretty close to accurate. But looking at the numbers they would imply that you would only land tail wheel first on every landing. Four degrees high as a matter of fact. Since that is not your experience, there must be something else happening. It is the ground effect. As you know, ground effect occurs within a wingspan of the ground and increases the glide. It effectively reduces the tip vortices. It also moves the Center of Lift rearward and changes the effective stall angle of the wing. So you don't have to fly along dragging the tailwheel to get down on the ground. Jim Shumaker > Hello Jim, > > I have tried to follow the thread about Vortex Generator a while ago. I think I > understand the principle but ... you mean to have them on the wings and not the > horizontal stab, right? This then would be in order to reduce my stall speed, correct? > Of course, it would be very kind of you to send me a few but before, there are > a few things I need to understand. Note that I had that question for a while > but wasn't sure. Here it is: > > From what I could measure, the angle my plane makes with the horizontal plane, > when on the ground, is roughly 16 degrees. I understand that my model 3 > undercambered wing won't stall with less than say, 20 degrees of AoA. > If after the flare, I keep the plane a few feet over the ground at say, 16 > degrees of AoA, will I ever stall before the lift is reduced and I touch the > ground? In other words, if the Vortex Generators will keep the flow of air over > the wing with energy, thus preventing the stall, with it help at 16 degrees AoA? > I am pretty sure I miss something here but I don't know what. > > Cheers, > Michel > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:01:54 PM PST US From: "jimshumaker" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: vortex generators --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jimshumaker" Darrel I will try to upload some VG pics tomorrow. My stall was lowered by 5 MPH or about 13 % which is about what the certified installers claim. No change in cruise speed. I used the CCI VG's (www.computer-certainty.com )that are clear lexan. They weigh about 20 grams per hundred as I recall. I used about 104. I installed them in the low area between each rib and false rib. I tried them at three locations and in half the spaces between the ribs and between every rib. The best location was three inches (measured horizontally) from a vertical plane tangent to the leading edge. I have been keeping a watch out for other planes that use them and have found them on many aircraft including Harriers and A-4's. There seem to be few aircraft that can't benefit from them. Jim Shumaker ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Kitfox-List: vortex generators > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" > > Jim, do you have any pics of the installation of your VGs that you could > post on sportflight? Also, how much noticeable difference did you > experience when you changed to VGs? Do you make your own and if so, what do > you use as a material including dimensions? Any change in cruise speed? > Too many questions? > Thanks, > Darrel > > > Now what have I been telling you about Vortex Generators? Would you like > me > > to send you a few? > > Jim Shumaker > >