Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:13 AM - SV: 582 spark plug gap (possible tip) (Michel Verheughe)
2. 12:35 AM - Re: 582 spark plug gap (possible tip) (Jeff Thomas)
3. 12:59 AM - Magnetic interference, The results (Graeme Toft)
4. 01:25 AM - SV: Magnetic interference, The results (Michel Verheughe)
5. 04:16 AM - Re: 582 spark plug gap (possible tip) (AlbertaIV@aol.com)
6. 04:23 AM - Re: SV: 582 spark plug gap (possible tip) (AlbertaIV@aol.com)
7. 04:28 AM - Re: 582 spark plug gap (possible tip) (AlbertaIV@aol.com)
8. 04:43 AM - SV: Stretch-Fox (Michel Verheughe)
9. 04:45 AM - Spark plug gap (AlbertaIV@aol.com)
10. 04:54 AM - Model II Cooling (Dee Young)
11. 05:41 AM - Re: Suffolk flyin & Mod II question (Glenn Horne)
12. 06:08 AM - Re: Replacing stab struts Model 4 (Gill Levesque)
13. 06:22 AM - Replacing stab struts (Gill Levesque)
14. 06:26 AM - Re: Model II Cooling (AlbertaIV@aol.com)
15. 06:31 AM - Re: Replacing stab struts Model 4 (AlbertaIV@aol.com)
16. 06:37 AM - Re: Suffolk flyin & Mod II question (Lowell Fitt)
17. 07:28 AM - Re: Replacing stab struts Model 4 (Gill Levesque)
18. 08:21 AM - Re: Suffolk flyin & Mod II question (John E. King)
19. 08:25 AM - Re: Stretch-Fox (Rod Ewing)
20. 08:41 AM - Re: Replacing stab struts Model 4 (flier)
21. 08:50 AM - Re: Spark plug gap (Jeff Thomas)
22. 12:50 PM - Re: Replacing stab struts Model 4 (Paul Seehafer)
23. 12:59 PM - Re: Replacing stab struts Model 4 (Lowell Fitt)
24. 01:12 PM - Re: Replacing stab struts Model 4 (Lowell Fitt)
25. 01:25 PM - Re: Replacing stab struts Model 4 (flier)
26. 02:09 PM - Replacing stab struts Model 4 (Ted Palamarek)
27. 02:26 PM - Re: Stretch-Fox (Paul Seehafer)
28. 02:33 PM - Re: Replacing stab struts Model 4 (flier)
29. 03:08 PM - Check this out kid!!! (Louis Bakanowsky)
30. 08:55 PM - Re charging Odyssey (Rex & Jan Shaw)
31. 09:08 PM - Re: Re charging Odyssey (Rick)
Message 1
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| Subject: | 582 spark plug gap (possible tip) |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
> From: aerocon1@telusplanet.net
> You get the "tech tip of the week" award for that one.
Ok, let me make a quick note of this: I guess everyone use a feeler under the anode
because otherwise you quickly bend too much. But - if I understand correctly
- the trick consists of hammering at 45 degrees on the anode's bend so that
it moves rather down and sideways and keeps parallel to the cathode. Is that
correct?
And ... this is valid for all engines, not only the 582, right?
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: 582 spark plug gap (possible tip) |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jeff Thomas" <jeffthomas@ntlworld.com>
Guys
I thought the recommended Rotax 582 plug gap was 0.018 - 0.022 (thousands of
an inch)? That is what I've been setting!
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: <aerocon1@telusplanet.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582 spark plug gap (possible tip)
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: aerocon1@telusplanet.net
>
> Hey Don,
>
> You get the "tech tip of the week" award for that one. You are 100% on
track.
>
> The spark eminates from the edges of the electrode. If you just bend the
> ground down to get the .016 gap you will have one side lower than the
other.
> Electricity will take the line of least resistance therefore giving you
spark
> on one side of your electrode only.
>
> By doing it your way (which, by the way, is the correct way to gap a plug)
you
> get spark from 360 degrees of the electrode.
> Congrats.
>
>
> Bob Robertson
> Light Engine Services Ltd.
> Rotax Service Center
>
> Quoting AlbertaIV@aol.com:
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
> >
> > A couple day ago, I took my daughter to lunch and the old 582 just
about
> >
> > didn't start after we finished eating. I was a little delinquent in
changing
> >
> > the plugs so did so this morning before I met with John King for the
flyin to
> >
> > Suffolk. Prior to changing the plugs, the engine would fire in about
3-4
> > revolutions of the prop. After setting and changing the plugs the
engine
> > fired on
> > the first revolution and ran/idled better.
> > I've always used the procedure below but this time it seemed to work
even
> >
> > better maybe because I really needed new plugs this time. Anyway, I put
the
> >
> > plugs in a vise and tap gently with a small hammer at a 45 degree angle
where
> >
> > the plug ground wire makes the 90 degree angle. This pushes the whole
ground
> >
> > wire over toward the center of the plug and when you get a tight .016"
gap,
> >
> > the entire gap is "parallel" to the plugs electrode. I initially put a
.012"
> >
> > flat feeler gauge in the gap while tapping with the hammer. Once it's
formed
> > in
> > toward the center of the plug, the .016" fits snug and is much more
parallel
> >
> > to the electrode.
> > It's my opinion that if you simply bend down the ground from the
factory
> >
> > setting (out of the box) on the NGK plugs to a .016" gap, you end up
with a
> >
> > setting that is not even close to parallel and therefore create a less
than
> >
> > productive spark. A parallel fit produces a better spark with a more
equal
> >
> > surface distance.
> >
> > Works great for me,
> > Don Smythe
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Magnetic interference, The results |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Graeme Toft" <msm@byterocky.net>
OK guys heres what we did. We decided against using the welder with reversed polarity
and opted for a degaussing wand that was provided by a local TV guy. The
results were dramatic to say the least. All magnetic interference was dumped
very quickly from the area being degaussed. Its a simple process of systematically
waving the wand around a couple of time over the whole airframe and just
a few inches from it. The degaussed gets very hot so you have to do say a couple
of feet of frame and then turn it off to cool for a few minutes. We did my
plane in 10 minutes. Try not to touch the cloth as I can see it scorching it
but do be systematic and cover the plane completely. To be safe I took all earth
wires off and removed radio and compass out. It will demagnetise anything with
magnets so be careful. Before degaussing the swing was around 130-140 degrees
depending where the compass was placed. After degaussing swing was reduced
to 3-5 degrees. Easy. If you cant get your hands on a degausser, an electrical
engineer told me you can improvise buy using welding leads clamped onto a piece
of timber. Space them a couple of inches apart and use it like the wand. I
hope this helps those of you with similar problems as I had..
Cheers
Graeme
Message 4
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| Subject: | Magnetic interference, The results |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
> From: Graeme Toft [msm@byterocky.net]
> To be safe I took all earth wires off and removed radio and compass out.
Er .... what about your engine's magneto, Graeme?
Cheers,
Michel
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: 582 spark plug gap (possible tip) |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
In a message dated 6/13/04 10:35:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
aerocon1@telusplanet.net writes:
>
> By doing it your way (which, by the way, is the correct way to gap a plug)
> you
> get spark from 360 degrees of the electrode.
> Congrats.
>
>
> Bob Robertson
> Light Engine Services Ltd.
> Rotax Service Center
>
>
Bob,
Thanks, If you remember, you and I discussed this a couple years ago. If
I remember correctly, you said it was the same way you did it.
Don Smythe
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: 582 spark plug gap (possible tip) |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
In a message dated 6/14/04 12:16:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
michel@online.no writes:
> Correctl trick consists of hammering at 45 degrees on the anode's bend so
> that it moves rather down and sideways and keeps parallel to the cathode. Is
> that correct?
> And ... this is valid for all engines, not only the 582, right?
>
> Cheers,
> Michel
>
Michel,
Correct. I use a .012" feeler gauge on the initial tap. This provides a
skid and keeps the probe from bending down too much. Use 100 small taps with
the hammer rather than 10 hard hits. Form it slowly. The factory plugs are
somewhere in the .030" range right out of the box and not physically designed
to bend down to .016". I would say that this policy is good for any spark plug
that you have to bend that much.
A wire gauge is better (imho) than a feeler gauge but the feeler gauge
works better for this method. The best thing is to use a .016 wire gauge for
the final setting.
Don Smythe
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: 582 spark plug gap (possible tip) |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
In a message dated 6/14/04 12:37:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
jeffthomas@ntlworld.com writes:
> Guys
>
> I thought the recommended Rotax 582 plug gap was 0.018 - 0.022 (thousands of
> an inch)? That is what I've been setting!
>
> Jeff
>
Jeff,
I'll have to double check but believe the lower setting is .015". A
tight .016 will give you better starts and idle. At least on mine. The gap will
open up as the plug wears. Set tight to start with. I've been using .016"
for about a year now and it works much better.
Don Smythe
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 8
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
> From: Steve Zakreski [szakreski@shaw.ca]
> Similar with the ground loop issues. I don't find my Kitfox particularly
> prone to ground looping,
Nor do I, Steve. But the Law says: Thou, ignorant newbie, shalt ground loop! It's
only a matter of time. Then there is Murphy's first amendement that says: "...
And it will occur at the least expected time!"
Based on that, I'd like to be prepared but, this being said: my model 3 behaves
like a true lady and keeps a straight course, wherever she puts her feet, even
on asphalt.
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 9
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
Jeff,
My Rotax maintenance books are at the airport but looked up several web
sites that say .015" to .019" is the desired sitting. Also found that when
using resistive plugs and resistive caps a tighter gap is desirable. Try .016"
and I think you will see a big difference.
Don Smythe
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 10
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| Subject: | Model II Cooling |
Seal-Send-Time: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 04:53:20 -0700
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dee Young" <henrysfork1@msn.com>
I am headed to the city of trees this morning. Later in the week when I return
I would be glad to take a picture if it would help.
You may want to check the Sportflight page under Completions. There are two photos
of my plane which clearly shows the scoop below the fuse. Maybe that would
help some.
Dee Young
Model II
N345DY
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: AlbertaIV@aol.com<mailto:AlbertaIV@aol.com>
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com<mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 4:44 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Spark plug gap
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com<mailto:AlbertaIV@aol.com>
Jeff,
My Rotax maintenance books are at the airport but looked up several web
sites that say .015" to .019" is the desired sitting. Also found that when
using resistive plugs and resistive caps a tighter gap is desirable. Try .016"
and I think you will see a big difference.
Don Smythe
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 11
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| Subject: | Suffolk flyin & Mod II question |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Glenn Horne" <glennflys@rcn.com>
Not sure Don. Will have to check to fine out.
Will let you know tonight.
Glenn
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
AlbertaIV@aol.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Suffolk flyin & Mod II question
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
Don
My model II did not have a cutout either. There was a good size gap
around the tailpipe and the trailing edge of the cowl was not fastened,so
could bow down with the ram air going through the cowl. This is how it was
from the original builder. It worked ok but I put a couple stand offs to
bow it down.
Dwight
Dwight/Glenn,
Glenn has a rather large hole for his tail pipe. I thought he had cut
it
but it may have been a factory cut hole. Glenn, was the hole factory cut?
Love it when a plan starts to come together. Thanks for the insight.
Don Smythe
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Replacing stab struts Model 4 |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Gill Levesque <canpilot03@yahoo.ca>
Paul, can you elaboreate on the AN 490 and which ball end you used!
thanks
Gil Levesque
Model 4
Paul <pwilson@climber.org> wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Paul
At 7:55 AM -0400 6/12/04, Gill Levesque wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Gill Levesque
>
>Has anyone on the list changed their Model 4 stab struts( 3/16 in. ball end) to
the larger size using 4130 tubing?
> If so ,how did you flatten the ends for drilling bolt holes? Is it ok, to flatten
in a vice ? Does the tubing crack and if so ,does it need to be welded on
these cracks? any help is appreciated
> Gil
>
>
>Still alive and flyin!!!!
>
> Gil
=========
Yup, Just bought new rod ends and AN 490. The AN 490 welds into the 3/8" tube.
and the female rod end just screws on the AN 490. Measure carefully as this combo
is longer than the Skystar setup so you need to shorten up the 3/8" tube.
Go to a welding shop and have the welder TIG weld the thing together after you
have it all assembled. I had the welder do 2 plug welds and a seam weld all around
the AN 490. The final result will be many-many times stronger than the mickey
mouse Skystar design.
Took me about 20 minutes to prep the change for the welder and it took the welder
20 minutes to weld the two parts. He charged me $10.
Paul
PS, Dont forget to remove all the paint for about 1" from where the welding will
be done. PW
--
Still alive and flyin!!!!
Gil
---------------------------------
Message 13
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| Subject: | Replacing stab struts |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Gill Levesque <canpilot03@yahoo.ca>
Some time ago the listers were talking about replacing the stab struts supplied
with the model 4.( 1/2 in. rear and 3/8 in. front tube with 3/16 in. ball end!)
I would like to do this! I recall some body saying they replaced then with
2 lengths of 1/2 in. 4130 tubing . The ends were flattened and holes drilled
at the original dimensions! For those who have done this mod my question is!
How did you flatten the tubing? Did it crack along the sides of the flattened
area? If so , did you weld it in this area?
I want to do this right and appreciate any and all suggestions!
Thanks
Gil Levesque
Model 4
Still alive and flyin!!!!
Gil
---------------------------------
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Model II Cooling |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
> You may want to check the Sportflight page under Completions. There are two
> photos of my plane which clearly shows the scoop below the fuse. Maybe that
> would help some.
>
> Dee Young
> Model II
>
Dee,
Those pics looked great. Also looked at pics from John Lines. The two
scoops are different in that yours looks like it protruded down about 1"-2"
where John's sticks down about 4".
Hit me one more time and refresh my memory....Did the plans call for the
scoops on the Model II or did you just design/add them on your own?
Don Smythe
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Replacing stab struts Model 4 |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
In a message dated 6/14/04 6:11:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
canpilot03@yahoo.ca writes:
> > If so ,how did you flatten the ends for drilling bolt holes? Is it ok, to
> flatten in a vice ? Does the tubing crack and if so ,does it need to be
> welded on these cracks? any help is appreciated
> > Gil
>
I'd like to see a response on Gil's original question. That is, can you
flatten the 4130 in a vise or use a hammer? Does it need to be heated or can it
be cold flattened? I want to replace mine on my Classic IV but would prefer to
use straight tubeing (flattened on the ends) with no rod ends. Once the stab
is adjusted and OK, I see no reason to maintain adjustable rods.
Don Smythe
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Suffolk flyin & Mod II question |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
One little thought here, I think Tony's advice is based on a totally air
cooled radial engine. Typically a round cowl equals a radial. For the
mostly water cooled Rotax, I would expect the opening ratio might be a bit
more conservative. I think your 110% might be right on the money.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron" <rliebmann@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Suffolk flyin & Mod II question
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ron" <rliebmann@comcast.net>
>
>
> Tony Bingelis, sportplane guru for decades explained to me when I was
> building my Fox that the exit air opening should ideally be 150% of the
> inlet air on round cowls. That is unless they are designed to be
> pressurized, like a P-47. I opened up my exit area per Tony........not
the
> full 150% but at least 110%........
>
> Ron N55KF
>
>
> >
> > My model II has an outlet the full width of the fire wall and about
> three inches wide. It resembles and air scoop facing backwards. I still
had
> to tightly baffle around the inside of the cowl for adiquate cooling.
> Pressure and heat will be a problem if Glen doesn't git it opened up some.
> >
> > Dee Young
> > Model II N345DY
> >
> > Two other things that just hit my mind about the lack of cowl
air
> > exit....One, the muffler will tend to generate massive heat that
> cannot escape the
> > cowl...Two, what about the possibility of pressure build up inside
the
> cowl that
> > will affect the carb vents of the 582? Come on guys, lets beat this
> one to
> > death a bit. One of our members is about to do first flight and I
> think this
> > needs immediate attention. I'm getting back on a soap box for
safety.
> > Is the model III built the same as the model II (no outlet for
> cowl air)?
> >
> > Help us out here...........
> > Don Smythe
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Replacing stab struts Model 4 |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Gill Levesque <canpilot03@yahoo.ca>
Thanks Don, I need all the help I can get !!!
Gil
AlbertaIV@aol.com wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
In a message dated 6/14/04 6:11:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
canpilot03@yahoo.ca writes:
> > If so ,how did you flatten the ends for drilling bolt holes? Is it ok, to
> flatten in a vice ? Does the tubing crack and if so ,does it need to be
> welded on these cracks? any help is appreciated
> > Gil
>
I'd like to see a response on Gil's original question. That is, can you
flatten the 4130 in a vise or use a hammer? Does it need to be heated or can it
be cold flattened? I want to replace mine on my Classic IV but would prefer to
use straight tubeing (flattened on the ends) with no rod ends. Once the stab
is adjusted and OK, I see no reason to maintain adjustable rods.
Don Smythe
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Still alive and flyin!!!!
Gil
---------------------------------
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Suffolk flyin & Mod II question |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John E. King " <kingjohn@erols.com>
Don (Bird Dog Two),
I think you have your answer. There has to be more area for exit air
than Glen now has. What Dwight has done seems to be an easy first step
for Glen to implement. He can experiment with different degrees of
openings (using different stand off lengths) without major surgery to
the bottom cowl. However, too large of an opening could affect the air
going into the radiator just behind the cowl. As I remember, his
radiator is on the small size. All of the radiators I have seen for
582's were larger.
I just had a second thought. Glen should devise an adjustable cowl flap
that he can control from inside the cockpit. All he would need is a
long piano hinge and a piece of suitable aluminum. It does not have to
be as complex with three shutters as the flap I have on my Series 6,
only a simple adjustable flap door that can be placed in any position.
That way he can control the engine temperature in all seasons.
--
John King
(Bird Dog One)
AlbertaIV@aol.com wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
>
>
>Don
> My model II did not have a cutout either. There was a good size gap
>around the tailpipe and the trailing edge of the cowl was not fastened,so
>could bow down with the ram air going through the cowl. This is how it was
>from the original builder. It worked ok but I put a couple stand offs to
>bow it down.
>
> Dwight
>
>
>Dwight/Glenn,
> Glenn has a rather large hole for his tail pipe. I thought he had cut it
>but it may have been a factory cut hole. Glenn, was the hole factory cut?
> Love it when a plan starts to come together. Thanks for the insight.
>
>Don Smythe
>
>
>
>
Message 19
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rod Ewing" <rode@alaska.com>
Andy, Vic, Darrel, Michel, Sid and Steve...thank you for your comments.
Once again, you have given me much to ponder. The Airdale site should
prove to contain a wealth of information. Steve, I want you to know, you
have eased my concerns. This list has an uncanny way of maintaining it's
own center of gravity..... to all who weighed in......thanks for the
balance.
Rod
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Stretch-Fox
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
>
> Good point. I'm sure the aoa would be affected slightly, but we're only
> talking about extending the frame a few inches and I don't think the
affect
> on aoa would amount to enough of a difference to matter. The reason I
> responded to this thread was that just extending the fuse would be a
> relatively simple fix for the problems encountered with the heavy engines.
> If I were to do it over again I'd give some serious thought to going this
> route. The only problem I can see is "how much and where".
> Darrel
>
> > The math is beyond me as well. I imagine there must be a multitude of
> > issues to be resolved. For instance, in the three point configuration
> the
> > angle of attack would lessen as the fuselage became longer. In the
Pacer
> > mod, I believe the main landing gear was made taller to compensate for
> the
> > AOA and provide ground clearance for a longer prop. I will ask a
friend
> > who has completed quite a few Pacer "Performer" conversions. I havent
> > covered my fuselage yet and am compelled to pursue this line of thought.
> > Any and all ideas or comments will be greatly appreciated.
> >
> > Rod
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
> > To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Kitfox-List: Stretch-Fox
> >
> >
> > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer"
> <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
> > >
> > > I've often thought about this. Doesn't seem to be a difficult thing
to
> do
> > > and if done correctly by a competent welder it shouldn't derogate the
> > > structual strength of the airplane. It would also solve all the
> problems
> > of
> > > wing sweep, battery in the tail, loooonnnngggg hot battery cables, and
> the
> > > list goes on, not to mention the lighter overall weight. The question
> is
> > > how much should be added? The math would be beyond me.
> > > Darrel
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Rod Ewing" <rode@alaska.com>
> > > To: "Kitfox List" <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> > > Subject: Kitfox-List: Stretch-Fox
> > >
> > >
> > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rod Ewing" <rode@alaska.com>
> > > >
> > > > Over the past year there has been a lot of mention of gap sealing to
> > > increase rudder and elevator authority a low speeds, also a fair bit
of
> > > concern regarding ground loops. Does anyone know of builder who has
> > > lengthened the fuselage of a model IV? It would seem to be an
> advantage
> > > especially if considering a heavier power plant. I know it has proven
> > quite
> > > successful in bush plane modified Piper Pacers.
> > > >
> > > > Rod-Model IV project
> > > > Wasilla, Alaska
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Replacing stab struts Model 4 |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "flier" <FLIER@sbcglobal.net>
Gents,
Softly anneal an inch or so of the ends of the tube
with a torch. Don't use a vise by itself. You'll
work harden the flats to the point they won't be
worth using. The ends should be taper formed then
bent at the correct angle and drilled. You can make
a taper masher to use in a vise with a couple of
pieces of 1" or 1.5" angle about 6" long each. Grind
off one side of the flat from each angle about 2"
then stick it in the vise and put a curve in the
remaining flat side. That way when you mash the tube
between the two pieces it'll leave a nice taper
instead of a pinch.
The only thing I wonder about with taking the rod
ends out of the front tube is vibration. Did Denney
put those rod ends in there simply for adjustment or
does the LE of the stab need to flex some in flight?
The rod ends on the lift struts are for that purpose.
Regards,
Ted
--- Original Message ---
From: Gill Levesque <canpilot03@yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Replacing stab struts Model
4
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Gill Levesque
<canpilot03@yahoo.ca>
>
>Thanks Don, I need all the help I can get !!!
> Gil
>
>AlbertaIV@aol.com wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
>
>In a message dated 6/14/04 6:11:07 AM Pacific
Daylight Time,
>canpilot03@yahoo.ca writes:
>
>
>> > If so ,how did you flatten the ends for drilling
bolt holes? Is it ok, to
>> flatten in a vice ? Does the tubing crack and if
so ,does it need to be
>> welded on these cracks? any help is appreciated
>> > Gil
>>
>
>I'd like to see a response on Gil's original
question. That is, can you
>flatten the 4130 in a vise or use a hammer? Does it
need to be heated or can it
>be cold flattened? I want to replace mine on my
Classic IV but would prefer to
>use straight tubeing (flattened on the ends) with no
rod ends. Once the stab
>is adjusted and OK, I see no reason to maintain
adjustable rods.
>
>Don Smythe
>DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
>Still alive and flyin!!!!
>
> Gil
>
>
>---------------------------------
>
>
>_-
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Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Spark plug gap |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jeff Thomas" <jeffthomas@ntlworld.com>
Don,
Just checked my rotax manual and it confirmed 0.020 inch (+ or - 0.002
inch) when using B8ES plugs. In fact I use resistor plugs BR8ES so I will
try resetting the gap a couple of thou narrower as you suggest and see how
the engine likes it.
Regards
Jeff
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: <AlbertaIV@aol.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Spark plug gap
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
>
> Jeff,
> My Rotax maintenance books are at the airport but looked up several
web
> sites that say .015" to .019" is the desired sitting. Also found that
when
> using resistive plugs and resistive caps a tighter gap is desirable. Try
.016"
> and I think you will see a big difference.
>
> Don Smythe
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Replacing stab struts Model 4 |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul Seehafer" <av8rps@tznet.com>
Fwiw, Avid Aircraft never used anything but a flattend end (no rod ends).
But incidentally Avid used larger diameter 4130, as I recall. I'm not aware
of there ever being a problem with any of Avids stab struts.
Paul S
----- Original Message -----
From: "flier" <FLIER@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Replacing stab struts Model 4
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "flier" <FLIER@sbcglobal.net>
>
> Gents,
>
> Softly anneal an inch or so of the ends of the tube
> with a torch. Don't use a vise by itself. You'll
> work harden the flats to the point they won't be
> worth using. The ends should be taper formed then
> bent at the correct angle and drilled. You can make
> a taper masher to use in a vise with a couple of
> pieces of 1" or 1.5" angle about 6" long each. Grind
> off one side of the flat from each angle about 2"
> then stick it in the vise and put a curve in the
> remaining flat side. That way when you mash the tube
> between the two pieces it'll leave a nice taper
> instead of a pinch.
>
> The only thing I wonder about with taking the rod
> ends out of the front tube is vibration. Did Denney
> put those rod ends in there simply for adjustment or
> does the LE of the stab need to flex some in flight?
> The rod ends on the lift struts are for that purpose.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ted
>
>
> --- Original Message ---
> From: Gill Levesque <canpilot03@yahoo.ca>
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Replacing stab struts Model
> 4
>
> >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Gill Levesque
> <canpilot03@yahoo.ca>
> >
> >Thanks Don, I need all the help I can get !!!
> > Gil
> >
> >AlbertaIV@aol.com wrote:
> >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
> >
> >In a message dated 6/14/04 6:11:07 AM Pacific
> Daylight Time,
> >canpilot03@yahoo.ca writes:
> >
> >
> >> > If so ,how did you flatten the ends for drilling
> bolt holes? Is it ok, to
> >> flatten in a vice ? Does the tubing crack and if
> so ,does it need to be
> >> welded on these cracks? any help is appreciated
> >> > Gil
> >>
> >
> >I'd like to see a response on Gil's original
> question. That is, can you
> >flatten the 4130 in a vise or use a hammer? Does it
> need to be heated or can it
> >be cold flattened? I want to replace mine on my
> Classic IV but would prefer to
> >use straight tubeing (flattened on the ends) with no
> rod ends. Once the stab
> >is adjusted and OK, I see no reason to maintain
> adjustable rods.
> >
> >Don Smythe
> >DO NOT ARCHIVE
> >
> >
> >Still alive and flyin!!!!
> >
> > Gil
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------
> >
> >
> >_-
> ======================================================
> ==================
> Contributions
> any other
> Forums.
> >_-
> ======================================================
> ==================
> >_-
> ======================================================
> ==================
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> list
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
> >_-
> ======================================================
> ==================
> >
> >
>
>
Message 23
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|
| Subject: | Re: Replacing stab struts Model 4 |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
Not an expert by any means, but all the flattened tubing on my KF was welded
at the edges and ends. We had a guy fly in to our get-together and the tab
on the fuselage that supports the inboard end of the stab. strut had broken
off. Looking at the broken piece, it was definitely welded at the edges.
This entire bracket is a tube flattened on both ends and bent a little that
is welded to the fuselage. It supports both stab struts as a carry through.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: <AlbertaIV@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Replacing stab struts Model 4
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 6/14/04 6:11:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> canpilot03@yahoo.ca writes:
>
>
> > > If so ,how did you flatten the ends for drilling bolt holes? Is it ok,
to
> > flatten in a vice ? Does the tubing crack and if so ,does it need to be
> > welded on these cracks? any help is appreciated
> > > Gil
> >
>
> I'd like to see a response on Gil's original question. That is, can you
> flatten the 4130 in a vise or use a hammer? Does it need to be heated or
can it
> be cold flattened? I want to replace mine on my Classic IV but would
prefer to
> use straight tubeing (flattened on the ends) with no rod ends. Once the
stab
> is adjusted and OK, I see no reason to maintain adjustable rods.
>
> Don Smythe
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
Message 24
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|
| Subject: | Re: Replacing stab struts Model 4 |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
My impression was that the rod ends were simply for adjustment. When
building, we were instructed to drill a series of holes up the triangular
plate on the forward edge of the stabilizer opening. Then determine the
proper angle of incidence for the horizontal stabilizer during test flying
and adjust the struts accordingly using the rod ends. The rear strut needs
no provision for adjustment as it is at the pivot point of the incidence
movement and it's attachment point is located during building by using a
transfer punch to center the bolt holes.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "flier" <FLIER@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Replacing stab struts Model 4
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "flier" <FLIER@sbcglobal.net>
>
> Gents,
>
> Softly anneal an inch or so of the ends of the tube
> with a torch. Don't use a vise by itself. You'll
> work harden the flats to the point they won't be
> worth using. The ends should be taper formed then
> bent at the correct angle and drilled. You can make
> a taper masher to use in a vise with a couple of
> pieces of 1" or 1.5" angle about 6" long each. Grind
> off one side of the flat from each angle about 2"
> then stick it in the vise and put a curve in the
> remaining flat side. That way when you mash the tube
> between the two pieces it'll leave a nice taper
> instead of a pinch.
>
> The only thing I wonder about with taking the rod
> ends out of the front tube is vibration. Did Denney
> put those rod ends in there simply for adjustment or
> does the LE of the stab need to flex some in flight?
> The rod ends on the lift struts are for that purpose.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ted
>
>
> --- Original Message ---
> From: Gill Levesque <canpilot03@yahoo.ca>
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Replacing stab struts Model
> 4
>
> >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Gill Levesque
> <canpilot03@yahoo.ca>
> >
> >Thanks Don, I need all the help I can get !!!
> > Gil
> >
> >AlbertaIV@aol.com wrote:
> >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
> >
> >In a message dated 6/14/04 6:11:07 AM Pacific
> Daylight Time,
> >canpilot03@yahoo.ca writes:
> >
> >
> >> > If so ,how did you flatten the ends for drilling
> bolt holes? Is it ok, to
> >> flatten in a vice ? Does the tubing crack and if
> so ,does it need to be
> >> welded on these cracks? any help is appreciated
> >> > Gil
> >>
> >
> >I'd like to see a response on Gil's original
> question. That is, can you
> >flatten the 4130 in a vise or use a hammer? Does it
> need to be heated or can it
> >be cold flattened? I want to replace mine on my
> Classic IV but would prefer to
> >use straight tubeing (flattened on the ends) with no
> rod ends. Once the stab
> >is adjusted and OK, I see no reason to maintain
> adjustable rods.
> >
> >Don Smythe
> >DO NOT ARCHIVE
> >
> >
> >Still alive and flyin!!!!
> >
> > Gil
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------
> >
> >
> >_-
> ======================================================
> ==================
> Contributions
> any other
> Forums.
> >_-
> ======================================================
> ==================
> >_-
> ======================================================
> ==================
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> list
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
> >_-
> ======================================================
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> >
> >
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Replacing stab struts Model 4 |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "flier" <FLIER@sbcglobal.net>
When the tube is mashed, even after being annealed
the edges of the flats are going to crack no matter
how carefully you do it so welding around the
periphery would be preferred. It also seals the tube
against corrosion. If you've got a torch to anneal,
it's a simple matter to run a bead around the
completed end...
Regards,
Ted
--- Original Message ---
From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Replacing stab struts Model
4
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt"
<lcfitt@inreach.com>
>
>Not an expert by any means, but all the flattened
tubing on my KF was welded
>at the edges and ends. We had a guy fly in to our
get-together and the tab
>on the fuselage that supports the inboard end of the
stab. strut had broken
>off. Looking at the broken piece, it was definitely
welded at the edges.
>This entire bracket is a tube flattened on both ends
and bent a little that
>is welded to the fuselage. It supports both stab
struts as a carry through.
>
>Lowell
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <AlbertaIV@aol.com>
>To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Replacing stab struts
Model 4
>
>
>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by:
AlbertaIV@aol.com
>>
>> In a message dated 6/14/04 6:11:07 AM Pacific
Daylight Time,
>> canpilot03@yahoo.ca writes:
>>
>>
>> > > If so ,how did you flatten the ends for
drilling bolt holes? Is it ok,
>to
>> > flatten in a vice ? Does the tubing crack and if
so ,does it need to be
>> > welded on these cracks? any help is appreciated
>> > > Gil
>> >
>>
>> I'd like to see a response on Gil's original
question. That is, can you
>> flatten the 4130 in a vise or use a hammer? Does
it need to be heated or
>can it
>> be cold flattened? I want to replace mine on my
Classic IV but would
>prefer to
>> use straight tubeing (flattened on the ends) with
no rod ends. Once the
>stab
>> is adjusted and OK, I see no reason to maintain
adjustable rods.
>>
>> Don Smythe
>> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>>
>>
>
>
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Message 26
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| Subject: | Replacing stab struts Model 4 |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ted Palamarek" <temco@telusplanet.net>
Ted
What colour or temp do you need to bring the 4130 to
properly anneal it before bending?? Seems to me it was just
a blush of red is that correct??
Thanks
Ted P
<<<<SNIP>>>>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Replacing stab struts Model 4
When the tube is mashed, even after being annealed
the edges of the flats are going to crack no matter
how carefully you do it so welding around the
periphery would be preferred. It also seals the tube
against corrosion. If you've got a torch to anneal,
it's a simple matter to run a bead around the
completed end...
Regards,
Ted
Message 27
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|
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul Seehafer" <av8rps@tznet.com>
Vic:
Sounds like you just need to find an Avid Magnum kit laying around that is
not finished. Already designed for an 0-320 on up to an 0-360. With the
160 hp 0-320 it is an awesome performer (I mean really awesome!!!). A
friend has one, so my experiences are close to firsthand. On floats it is
incredible. Big baggage, large cabin, lots of fuel, and (wheeled) cruise
speeds with the standard high lift airfoil around 125-130 mph.
But, I think the Magnum also makes a good argument for not extending one's
fueslage. For as long as it is, it can still be a handful. And I'm certain
the Magnum has a much longer fuselage than would an extended Kitfox.
(Rod) Personally, I wouldn't want to give up the nimble handling that comes
from the short coupled fuselage the Kitfox has. I started flying Avids way
back when they were really short coupled (a Kitfox is long by comparison).
Never was a problem for ground handling. You just have to learn it. And
even though the Fox is only slightly longer than the Avid fuselage, you can
already tell when comparing the two that the Kitfox is not quite as nimble.
I therefore would not extend the fuselage. In my opinion a Kitfox would now
fly too much like a Cub. Just wouldn't be as much fun...
Paul S
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vic Jacko" <vicwj@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Stretch-Fox
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Vic Jacko" <vicwj@earthlink.net>
>
> Sounds like the makings of a "Super Fox" that I may one day build if I can
> find a derelict 5,6 or 7 someone has given up on.
>
> I would very much like to mount the battery right up front and not have to
> sweep the wings forward.
>
> My not so scientific calculations tell me I would extend the fuse exactly
> 12" right in front of the rudder. This should allow the use of a heavy
> engine and battery located forward.
>
> By the time you replace all the heavy stuff on the Lycoming 0-235 I think
> you would end up with about a 225 lb engine package ready to fly. If you
do
> the same to the Lycoming 0-320 E2D you would have an engine package that
> add another 31 lbs and have about 175 horsepower with proper ignition and
> exhaust mods. We have the makings of a 899 lb Super Fox.
>
> Please somebody build it and I will be your mentor and get the first test
> flight. Cliff B. will probably challenge me on that.
>
> I will be out of town this week but will be very interested in hearing
> responses.
>
> Derelict Series 5,6 or 7 where are you?
>
> Vic
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Stretch-Fox
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer"
<morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
> >
> > Good point. I'm sure the aoa would be affected slightly, but we're only
> > talking about extending the frame a few inches and I don't think the
> affect
> > on aoa would amount to enough of a difference to matter. The reason I
> > responded to this thread was that just extending the fuse would be a
> > relatively simple fix for the problems encountered with the heavy
engines.
> > If I were to do it over again I'd give some serious thought to going
this
> > route. The only problem I can see is "how much and where".
> > Darrel
> >
> > > The math is beyond me as well. I imagine there must be a multitude
of
> > > issues to be resolved. For instance, in the three point
configuration
> > the
> > > angle of attack would lessen as the fuselage became longer. In the
> Pacer
> > > mod, I believe the main landing gear was made taller to compensate
for
> > the
> > > AOA and provide ground clearance for a longer prop. I will ask a
> friend
> > > who has completed quite a few Pacer "Performer" conversions. I
havent
> > > covered my fuselage yet and am compelled to pursue this line of
thought.
> > > Any and all ideas or comments will be greatly appreciated.
> > >
> > > Rod
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
> > > To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> > > Subject: Kitfox-List: Stretch-Fox
> > >
> > >
> > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer"
> > <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
> > > >
> > > > I've often thought about this. Doesn't seem to be a difficult thing
> to
> > do
> > > > and if done correctly by a competent welder it shouldn't derogate
the
> > > > structual strength of the airplane. It would also solve all the
> > problems
> > > of
> > > > wing sweep, battery in the tail, loooonnnngggg hot battery cables,
and
> > the
> > > > list goes on, not to mention the lighter overall weight. The
question
> > is
> > > > how much should be added? The math would be beyond me.
> > > > Darrel
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Rod Ewing" <rode@alaska.com>
> > > > To: "Kitfox List" <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> > > > Subject: Kitfox-List: Stretch-Fox
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rod Ewing" <rode@alaska.com>
> > > > >
> > > > > Over the past year there has been a lot of mention of gap sealing
to
> > > > increase rudder and elevator authority a low speeds, also a fair
bit
> of
> > > > concern regarding ground loops. Does anyone know of builder who
has
> > > > lengthened the fuselage of a model IV? It would seem to be an
> > advantage
> > > > especially if considering a heavier power plant. I know it has
proven
> > > quite
> > > > successful in bush plane modified Piper Pacers.
> > > > >
> > > > > Rod-Model IV project
> > > > > Wasilla, Alaska
> >
> >
>
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Replacing stab struts Model 4 |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "flier" <FLIER@sbcglobal.net>
That's what I'd do. It's not real critical for that
bend area as far as I can tell. The purists might
say something like use a 900F or so Tempil mark about
an inch or so from the heated end but I think that
would be some real overkill :
)
I'd heat it dull red and let it cool, mash, bend, and
drill it. Run a bead around the edges of the
flattened end, then play the torch over it till it
returns to dull red and let it cool naturally. Make
sure there are no breezes around. I think the
experts would agree.
Regards,
Ted
--- Original Message ---
From: "Ted Palamarek" <temco@telusplanet.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Replacing stab struts Model 4
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ted Palamarek"
<temco@telusplanet.net>
>
>Ted
>
>What colour or temp do you need to bring the 4130 to
>properly anneal it before bending?? Seems to me it
was just
>a blush of red is that correct??
>
>Thanks
>
>Ted P
>
><<<<SNIP>>>>
>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Replacing stab struts
Model 4
>
>When the tube is mashed, even after being annealed
>the edges of the flats are going to crack no matter
>how carefully you do it so welding around the
>periphery would be preferred. It also seals the tube
>against corrosion. If you've got a torch to anneal,
>it's a simple matter to run a bead around the
>completed end...
>
>Regards,
>
>Ted
>
>
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Message 29
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| Subject: | Check this out kid!!! |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Louis Bakanowsky <mino@rcn.com>
Send me back bro, when you`ll be done...(if you know what i mean...)
See ya, Louis Bakanowsky
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re charging Odyssey |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rex & Jan Shaw" <rexjan@bigpond.com>
Hi ! Guys, I have a Rotax 582 in a Kitfox. The current battery is a normal
wet cell motorcycle battery and it is useless. Was only good for a couple of
months at the most. It has now died to all intents and purposes at a grand
old age of about 7 months. So I have ordered an Odyssey PC625. We will see
if this copes with the deep cycling and several weeks standing at a time
better situation.
However I am wondering if anyone can enlighten me as to the suitability of
the charging system. It is the 264 870 rectifier-regulator. Does anyone know
if it has a limit to the output voltage and if so what that limit is. I am
worried about overcharging on long trips.
By the way just a hint for anyone looking at buying an Odyssey battery. I
live in Australia and the best price I could get here was $230AU delivered
to my Post Office box. I have ordered it from Batteriesforeverything in the
US. It is coming via the slow method and will take 4 to 6 weeks. The cost of
shipping this way was about $35US but a quicker way was double. Anyway the
real point is that it will land at my Post Office box for only $135 AU. My
first quote for local supply was $265AU and that wasn't delivered. So unless
you are in the US you might want to take note re pricing. I found also
prices in the US varied too. Batteriesforeverything was $57.42US whereas
most common price was $89US. Batteriesforeverything was also the most
helpfull. I am not trying to advertise for them just trying to give you an
idea of the situation. Others might be even better perhaps, I just didn't
find them.
Regards Rex
Australia.
rexjan@bigpond.com
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re charging Odyssey |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rick" <turboflyer@comcast.net>
Rex I have had a pc 925 around now for years. It just wont die. I dont use
it in the fox but could easily. It sits and sit and if i put the charger on
it it blips off in just a min or two. In and out of three different cars and
a truck. They are great.
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Rex & Jan
Shaw
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re charging Odyssey
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rex & Jan Shaw" <rexjan@bigpond.com>
Hi ! Guys, I have a Rotax 582 in a Kitfox. The current battery is a normal
wet cell motorcycle battery and it is useless. Was only good for a couple of
months at the most. It has now died to all intents and purposes at a grand
old age of about 7 months. So I have ordered an Odyssey PC625. We will see
if this copes with the deep cycling and several weeks standing at a time
better situation.
However I am wondering if anyone can enlighten me as to the suitability of
the charging system. It is the 264 870 rectifier-regulator. Does anyone know
if it has a limit to the output voltage and if so what that limit is. I am
worried about overcharging on long trips.
By the way just a hint for anyone looking at buying an Odyssey battery. I
live in Australia and the best price I could get here was $230AU delivered
to my Post Office box. I have ordered it from Batteriesforeverything in the
US. It is coming via the slow method and will take 4 to 6 weeks. The cost of
shipping this way was about $35US but a quicker way was double. Anyway the
real point is that it will land at my Post Office box for only $135 AU. My
first quote for local supply was $265AU and that wasn't delivered. So unless
you are in the US you might want to take note re pricing. I found also
prices in the US varied too. Batteriesforeverything was $57.42US whereas
most common price was $89US. Batteriesforeverything was also the most
helpfull. I am not trying to advertise for them just trying to give you an
idea of the situation. Others might be even better perhaps, I just didn't
find them.
Regards Rex
Australia.
rexjan@bigpond.com
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