---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 06/18/04: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:39 AM - Re: Ribs (Lowell Fitt) 2. 07:14 AM - Re: Master solenoid - A confession! (kerrjohna@comcast.net) 3. 07:42 AM - Re: Master solenoid - A confession! (Clifford Begnaud) 4. 07:44 AM - Re: Ribs (Bill Pleso) 5. 08:08 AM - Re: Ribs (Paul Seehafer) 6. 08:30 AM - Re: N60FS still flies/strip (Fox5flyer) 7. 08:46 AM - Insurance -HELP (Joel Mapes) 8. 09:53 AM - Re: Ribs (Lowell Fitt) 9. 10:11 AM - Re: Ribs (Lowell Fitt) 10. 12:43 PM - Master solenoid - A confession! (Ted Palamarek) 11. 01:26 PM - Re: Ribs (u2drvr@dslextreme.com) 12. 01:42 PM - Power diode WAS Master solenoid (Michel Verheughe) 13. 03:30 PM - Re: Ribs (kerrjohna@comcast.net) 14. 04:18 PM - Re: Ribs (kurt schrader) 15. 06:59 PM - Re: Insurance -HELP (Fred Shiple) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:38 AM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ribs --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Bill, I think the original Model IV-1200 had three hinges - mine does - 1993 vintage. I think the "Classic IV" has 4. Haven't heard of any issues regarding rudder hinges, so don't have a guess as to the change. Is it fore and aft that they don't line up or is it the vertical spacing along the hinge line? Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Pleso" Subject: Kitfox-List: Ribs > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bill Pleso" > > Builders, > The book shows 3 hinge points for the rudder, but my fuselage has 4 (they don't line up very well). Anyone know why the change was made? Would it be possible for somebody to send me (snail mail) a paper or cardboard pattern for the wooden ribs on the vertical stabilizer and rudder for the Model IV? Thanks. > Bill > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:14:03 AM PST US From: kerrjohna@comcast.net Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Master solenoid - A confession! --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kerrjohna@comcast.net could this explain why the batteries in my gps went flat while connected to the accessory plug? on another thread, the last two recombinant gas (RG) batteries used with my 912 went south after about 6 months. is that because of the "hot" charge that comes from the 912 regulator? 'lectonics leave me baffled. John > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" > > A while back I asked the list if I should have voltage on the other side of > the master solenoid if the solenoid was "off". I got a new solenoid from > Aircraft Spruce. It did the same thing! > > Well, I think Ted was closest with his comment that the voltage must be > coming from some where else. After a lot of frustration, I started > unhooking things. I finally tracked it down to batteries in the GPS! - > which was plugged into a cigarette lighter type accessory plug. > > I now have a really swell spare master solenoid. > > Randy - N10NH Still building and testing - rather be flying! (Never > thought I would say that!) > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:42:23 AM PST US From: "Clifford Begnaud" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Master solenoid - A confession! --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud" John, There's a lengthy and detailed discussion of this very topic going on right now on the Aeroelectric list (matronics). I suggest looking at the archives there. Search batteries and "battery types" during the last two weeks. Cliff > > could this explain why the batteries in my gps went flat while connected to the accessory plug? > > on another thread, the last two recombinant gas (RG) batteries used with my 912 went south after about 6 months. is that because of the "hot" charge that comes from the 912 regulator? > > 'lectonics leave me baffled. > > John > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:44:04 AM PST US From: "Bill Pleso" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ribs --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bill Pleso" > Is it fore and aft that they don't line up or is it the vertical spacing > along the hinge line? > Lowell, They (the two center bearings) are off vertically. One's a little high and one's a little low. I don't like the idea of bending the tabs, so I may cut the tabs off and have them rewelded on. When I bought the plane (10 yrs old & never built) it still had "most" of the parts. I have the wooden ribs for the horizontal tail surfaces, but not the vertical / rudder. Bill do not archive ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:08:16 AM PST US From: "Paul Seehafer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ribs --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul Seehafer" Bill: Your airplane has the newer, 10" taller rudder and vertical stabilizer. Therefore you have 4 hinges vs 3 like the earlier models had. The taller rudder needs the extra hinge to support the length. (At least that's what I'd guess the engineers would say) I heard the ribs do nothing in the vertical stab/rudder except add weight. I did however hear also that the horiz stab and elevator need the ribs for better performance. So before you start adding ribs you might want to check with others on how the two verticals (rib vs no-rib) compare performance wise. I'll bet John McBean may have an opinion on that as he's flown most all of them I'm sure. Just a suggestion.... Paul S ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Pleso" Subject: Kitfox-List: Ribs > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bill Pleso" > > Builders, > The book shows 3 hinge points for the rudder, but my fuselage has 4 (they don't line up very well). Anyone know why the change was made? Would it be possible for somebody to send me (snail mail) a paper or cardboard pattern for the wooden ribs on the vertical stabilizer and rudder for the Model IV? Thanks. > Bill > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:30:25 AM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: N60FS still flies/strip --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" Well, since you're proficient on grass, as soon as you get your 40 flown off stop by here on your way north if you need to take a break. Not really out of your way. Darrel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Shiple" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: N60FS still flies/strip > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Fred Shiple > > Darrel, > The strip belongs to a friend. Used it for the fly-off. It's 10 miles north of Toledo on his farm. > Fred > > do not archive > > Where is that strip located? > Darrel > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:46:28 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Insurance -HELP From: "Joel Mapes" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Joel Mapes" I've been following the list for about a month, lots of great info. I'm building a Series V w/ 921A and GTA CS prop on Aerocomp amphibs. My plan is to fly in on wheels initially and move it to the floats after 40 hours or so. I'm intrigued by the request for Kitfox specific floatplane training. Where is that available? Joel Mapes Software Engineer OEM / OCA Team roxio The Digital Media Company* 10030 Silverdale Way NW, Ste 101 Silverdale, WA 98383 USA 360 613 9988 direct 360 613 4266 fax joel.mapes@roxio.com www.roxio.com NASDAQ:"ROXI" Featuring the Best-Selling CD-Recording Software in the World ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:53:13 AM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ribs --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Thanks Bill, there has been some talk in the past about misalignment of the hinges. This clears it up. Since my kit was delivered in March 1993 and yours is ten years old, my guess is that the change took place shortly after mine was shipped. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Pleso" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ribs > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bill Pleso" > > > > Is it fore and aft that they don't line up or is it the vertical spacing > > along the hinge line? > > > Lowell, > They (the two center bearings) are off vertically. One's a little high > and one's a little low. I don't like the idea of bending the tabs, so I may > cut the tabs off and have them rewelded on. When I bought the plane (10 yrs > old & never built) it still had "most" of the parts. I have the wooden ribs > for the horizontal tail surfaces, but not the vertical / rudder. > Bill > > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:11:01 AM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ribs --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Paul, not quite true. My Model IV-1200 has the taller vertical stab and rudder. But has three hinges. I am curious as I send this - my rudder hinges incorporate 1/4" rod ends. Am I correct in that the 4 hinge set-up uses 3/16 rod ends? I do have ribs and a closed gap on mine, but have no experience the other way so have no knowledge of the difference in performance. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Seehafer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ribs > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul Seehafer" > > Bill: > > Your airplane has the newer, 10" taller rudder and vertical stabilizer. > Therefore you have 4 hinges vs 3 like the earlier models had. The taller > rudder needs the extra hinge to support the length. (At least that's what > I'd guess the engineers would say) > > I heard the ribs do nothing in the vertical stab/rudder except add weight. > I did however hear also that the horiz stab and elevator need the ribs for > better performance. So before you start adding ribs you might want to check > with others on how the two verticals (rib vs no-rib) compare performance > wise. I'll bet John McBean may have an opinion on that as he's flown most > all of them I'm sure. Just a suggestion.... > > > Paul S > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Pleso" > To: > Subject: Kitfox-List: Ribs > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bill Pleso" > > > > Builders, > > The book shows 3 hinge points for the rudder, but my fuselage has 4 > (they don't line up very well). Anyone know why the change was made? Would > it be possible for somebody to send me (snail mail) a paper or cardboard > pattern for the wooden ribs on the vertical stabilizer and rudder for the > Model IV? Thanks. > > Bill > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:43:40 PM PST US From: "Ted Palamarek" Subject: Kitfox-List: Master solenoid - A confession! --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ted Palamarek" John Re the GPS batteries going flat --- in all likely hood that is exactly what happened. To avoid this in the future you could just pull the accessory plug or put a steering diode in the 12V side of the line from the plug. This would allow current to flow to your GPS but block any current from your GPS going out to other things in you aircraft when your battery is not supplying power. The normal drop across a diode is 0.5v, so that would not make any difference to how your GPS would operate. Better still put the diode on the supply side, that way any device plugged into the accessory plug will not discharge into the system if left plugged in. Not sure about the charging and the other two batteries not lasting long. Ted Edmonton <<<>>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kerrjohna@comcast.net could this explain why the batteries in my gps went flat while connected to the accessory plug? on another thread, the last two recombinant gas (RG) batteries used with my 912 went south after about 6 months. is that because of the "hot" charge that comes from the 912 regulator? 'lectonics leave me baffled. John ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:26:13 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ribs From: u2drvr@dslextreme.com --> Kitfox-List message posted by: u2drvr@dslextreme.com Bill, Airfoiling (adding ribs to) the rudder increases dynamic stability in the yaw axis. In other words, it has a natural centering tendency... if you yaw the airplane and then take out the rudder, it wants to go back to flying straight. This is very noticeable in the horizontal stab, but I'm not sure how much effect it has in the vertical stab. Bottom line, I think the improvement in flying qualities is worth the minimal weight. Cheers, BP Paul Seehafer > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul Seehafer" > > Bill: > > Your airplane has the newer, 10" taller rudder and vertical stabilizer. > Therefore you have 4 hinges vs 3 like the earlier models had. The taller > rudder needs the extra hinge to support the length. (At least that's what > I'd guess the engineers would say) > > I heard the ribs do nothing in the vertical stab/rudder except add weight. > I did however hear also that the horiz stab and elevator need the ribs for > better performance. So before you start adding ribs you might want to > check > with others on how the two verticals (rib vs no-rib) compare performance > wise. I'll bet John McBean may have an opinion on that as he's flown most > all of them I'm sure. Just a suggestion.... > > > Paul S > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Pleso" > To: > Subject: Kitfox-List: Ribs > > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bill Pleso" >> >> Builders, >> The book shows 3 hinge points for the rudder, but my fuselage has 4 > (they don't line up very well). Anyone know why the change was made? > Would > it be possible for somebody to send me (snail mail) a paper or cardboard > pattern for the wooden ribs on the vertical stabilizer and rudder for the > Model IV? Thanks. >> Bill >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:42:23 PM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Kitfox-List: Power diode WAS Master solenoid --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe Ted Palamarek wrote: > Re the GPS batteries going flat --- in all likely hood that > is exactly what happened. This is strange. One would think that any device that can work on internal battery and external power (either AC or DC) has already a diode that prevents the internal battery to discharge. Then again, I have seen my share of weird things in life. PS: I never leave my GPS in the plane when hangared. I have enough with people stealing my fuel, I don't want to attract too much their attention. Cheers, Michel do not archive. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:30:32 PM PST US From: kerrjohna@comcast.net Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ribs --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kerrjohna@comcast.net handling diffrences are difficult to determine because so few of us have flown the different configurations. I have also heard that the flat fin foxes tend to "search" a bit in yaw. John 900 hr classic iv over 2000 landings, lot of slips, and no weeds. > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: u2drvr@dslextreme.com > > Bill, > > Airfoiling (adding ribs to) the rudder increases dynamic stability in the > yaw axis. In other words, it has a natural centering tendency... if you > yaw the airplane and then take out the rudder, it wants to go back to > flying straight. This is very noticeable in the horizontal stab, but I'm > not sure how much effect it has in the vertical stab. Bottom line, I think > the improvement in flying qualities is worth the minimal weight. > > Cheers, > > BP > > > Paul Seehafer > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul Seehafer" > > > > Bill: > > > > Your airplane has the newer, 10" taller rudder and vertical stabilizer. > > Therefore you have 4 hinges vs 3 like the earlier models had. The taller > > rudder needs the extra hinge to support the length. (At least that's what > > I'd guess the engineers would say) > > > > I heard the ribs do nothing in the vertical stab/rudder except add weight. > > I did however hear also that the horiz stab and elevator need the ribs for > > better performance. So before you start adding ribs you might want to > > check > > with others on how the two verticals (rib vs no-rib) compare performance > > wise. I'll bet John McBean may have an opinion on that as he's flown most > > all of them I'm sure. Just a suggestion.... > > > > > > Paul S > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bill Pleso" > > To: > > Subject: Kitfox-List: Ribs > > > > > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bill Pleso" > >> > >> Builders, > >> The book shows 3 hinge points for the rudder, but my fuselage has 4 > > (they don't line up very well). Anyone know why the change was made? > > Would > > it be possible for somebody to send me (snail mail) a paper or cardboard > > pattern for the wooden ribs on the vertical stabilizer and rudder for the > > Model IV? Thanks. > >> Bill > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:18:09 PM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ribs --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Bill, Are your bearings large enough to shave a little off of the ends of each to make it fit rather than move the tabs? Just a thought, Kurt S. --- Bill Pleso wrote: > > > > Is it fore and aft that they don't line up or is > it the vertical spacing > > along the hinge line? > > > Lowell, > They (the two center bearings) are off > vertically. One's a little high > and one's a little low. I don't like the idea of > bending the tabs, so I may > cut the tabs off and have them rewelded on. When I > bought the plane (10 yrs > old & never built) it still had "most" of the parts. > I have the wooden ribs > for the horizontal tail surfaces, but not the > vertical / rudder. > Bill > > do not archive __________________________________ http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:59:54 PM PST US From: Fred Shiple Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Insurance -HELP --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Fred Shiple Joel, I'm fortunate to have a local builder/CFI whose Kitfox is on floats. Falcon allowed me to name him on my policy and indicated he would satisfy them. John McBean would be a good source for training for anyone without such a local resource. Fred : --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Joel Mapes" I've been following the list for about a month, lots of great info. I'm building a Series V w/ 921A and GTA CS prop on Aerocomp amphibs. My plan is to fly in on wheels initially and move it to the floats after 40 hours or so. I'm intrigued by the request for Kitfox specific floatplane training. Where is that available?