---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 06/23/04: 28 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:51 AM - Re: Another Fox Flies pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- ------------------------------------------- (Fox5flyer) 2. 04:09 AM - Re: Props; was: O-235 Battery (Bruce Lina) 3. 04:13 AM - Re: O-235 Battery (Bruce Lina) 4. 04:27 AM - (Marc Arseneault) 5. 05:03 AM - Re: Props; was: O-235 Battery (Clifford Begnaud) 6. 05:20 AM - Re: Another Fox Flies pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- ------------------------------------------- (Vic Jacko) 7. 06:22 AM - Re: Props; was: O-235 Battery (W Duke) 8. 06:37 AM - Re: Another Fox Flies pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- ------------------------------------------- (Lowell Fitt) 9. 07:47 AM - Re: Another Fox Flies (Michel Verheughe) 10. 10:07 AM - Re: Another Fox Flies pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- ------------------------------------------- (Fred Shiple) 11. 11:56 AM - KF Mod 2, Rotax 582, Primer & Header vent (Marco Menezes) 12. 12:47 PM - Re: 912 Quad Gauge, bad ground? (Steve Magdic) 13. 12:54 PM - Re: 912 Quad Gauge, bad ground? (Vic Jacko) 14. 01:06 PM - Re: 912 Quad Gauge, bad ground? (Steve Magdic) 15. 01:12 PM - Re: KF Mod 2, Rotax 582, Primer & Header vent (Lowell Fitt) 16. 01:15 PM - Re: 912 Quad Gauge, bad ground? (Lowell Fitt) 17. 01:18 PM - Re: KF Mod 2, Rotax 582, Primer & Header vent (Bob Robertson) 18. 01:22 PM - Re: 912 Quad Gauge, bad ground? (flier) 19. 01:24 PM - Re: KF Mod 2, Rotax 582, Primer & Header vent (Marco Menezes) 20. 01:31 PM - Re: KF Mod 2, Rotax 582, Primer & Header vent (Marco Menezes) 21. 01:43 PM - Re: KF Mod 2, Rotax 582, Primer & Header vent (AlbertaIV@aol.com) 22. 01:50 PM - Re: Props; was: O-235 Battery (Bruce Lina) 23. 04:29 PM - Re: Props; was: O-235 Battery (Clifford Begnaud) 24. 06:19 PM - Re: Props; was: O-235 Battery (Jeff Hays) 25. 06:30 PM - Re: Carb Balance 912S (Daniel Aller) 26. 07:48 PM - Re: Carb Balance 912S (Wwillyard@aol.com) 27. 09:26 PM - Compass (Bob Unternaehrer) 28. 11:42 PM - Re: Compass (Tyrohelmer@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:51:26 AM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Another Fox Flies pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- ------------------------------------------- --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" Congrats Norm. Now the fun begins! Darrel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Norm Beauchamp" description ---- ---------------------- ------------------------------------ ------- > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Norm Beauchamp > > I passed the inspection today and flew N66180 (" Nothin Fancy") today . > Its been a long haul, I'm slow, but Don't Ever Give Up!!!. The kit > was delivered July 2nd 96 At that time I didn't even have my license. > I got it a year and a half later after I retired. I have lost my medical > twice, gone non current, just finished twenty hours tail dragger > training, and passed a BFR. From the days of a tow headed kid in 1945 > standing in a barn yard watching those war birds we love to go see today > at air show, go over for real. Wondering what it would be like to be > able to fly an airplane. Today I know what it's like to be able to > build and fly an airplane. Its a great country we live in. I don't > know the rate of climb, I forgot to check. My ground persons radio went > on the fritz shortly after take off and he was going to question me for > the important stuff. The ASI didn't work, and it took me three tries to > land, but the training I had in the Champ paid off. I could feel it. > > Thanks to those of you who have shared in this with your thoughts and > ideas that I have use over the years. To the ones who are still on the > list, now, in the past, and to those who have gone on. > > We leave tomorrow for upstate NY to go to one of our Granddaughter's > graduation from high school. I couldn't wait a week now could I?. > Later Norm. San Angelo Tx. > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:09:48 AM PST US From: "Bruce Lina" Subject: Re: Props; was: Kitfox-List: O-235 Battery --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Lina" Hi Cliff, Thanks for the quick and thorough response. From the sound of it , I am losing lots of performance because of my prop. Specifically, my prop is a Sensenich W74EK-2-58 which is their middle of the road prop in terms of pitch. The manufacturer cut the prop down to 72 inches and the pitch is 58 (the other props they recommend for the kitfox are pitched to 56 and 60 respectively). Other guys with my prop - engine installation are getting the same RPM as I am. My airplane is heavy because of my engine installation (better than 250 lbs ) and I come in at 967 lb empty weight. Solo at about 1250 lb TO weight, I get airborne in 400 feet and climb at 1000-1100 FPM at best rate of climb speed of 70 MPH. At gross weight my TO roll doubles to 700-800 feet and climb rate is an anemic 600-700 FPM. I think I need a new prop One guy I know who used to run a 3 bladed warp drive on his IO-240 powered Kitfox (until they were recalled for cracking) claimed TO and climb pefr similar to what you are getting. Thanks Bruce ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clifford Begnaud" Subject: Props; was: Kitfox-List: O-235 Battery > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud" > > Bruce, > Depends upon conditions, but normally 2400-2475 rpm static up here in > Colorado. Never tried it at sea level. > > I spoke with Aymar Demuth a few weeks ago and if I remember correctly I > think he said that changing the pitch on this prop by 2 inches would change > the rpms by 100. He also said that no two of their props will perform > exactly alike, even if the specs are the same. I certainly would believe > this. Consider that the theoretical speed of a plane with a 47" pitch prop > turning 2600 rpm is 115.7 mph, with NO slippage and no airframe drag! Our > plane easily outperforms that, so it must really have considerably more than > 47" of pitch. Also note that increasing the pitch 2" increases the > theoretical max speed by 5 mph. Of course we know that as speed increases, > so does drag, so I really don't have a clue how to figure out the right > pitch for a prop. > > Our plane cruises 130 mph at 2600 rpm (up high) and that's with lots of > throttle left. It can still easily be overspeeded to about 2900 rpm. If I > had my druthers, I would have a cruise prop with more pitch than I have, > maybe even 70" diameter instead of 72 to allow even more pitch for speed. > Then I would have a 76" climb prop with very fine pitch for bush work. The > guy at Aymar Demuth doesn't like longer props for better climb, he says that > it just adds drag and doesn't increase climb. Well it may not increase climb > RATE, but I believe it would increase climb ANGLE and the extra drag would > allow steeper approaches. That is probably one of the main benefits of the > Borer prop that the supercub flyers use. > > Bruce, if you do most of your short field work down low, our prop would > perform admirably just the way it is. Solo, lightly loaded, I can probably > get off the ground in 150-175' at sea level on anything other than a hot > summer afternoon. Climb would be about 1300-1400 fpm, BUT, for obstacle > clearance the climb angle at 55 mph is shockingly steep. I often operate out > of a small 600' strip up here at 5400'. Even with two big guys on board I > have no problem getting in or out with room to spare (on a cool spring day). > > Bruce, what is the diameter and pitch of your prop? How fast can you go and > what is your climb rate? What's your planes empty weight? > Best Regards, > Cliff > > > > > Cliff, What is your static RPM at full throttle with your engine and prop > > combo. I have a Continental IO-240 engine with a Sensenich wood prop and > can > > only achieve 2200 RPM static at full throttle. I know I could achieve > better > > TO and climb perf with a better prop , engine combo, but at a 1000 bucks a > > pop (or prop) as the case may be it gets a bit expensive to do the R & D. > > Thanks Bruce > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Clifford Begnaud" > > To: > > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: O-235 Battery > > > > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud" > > > > > > > > > > > Good question, perhaps Vic Jacko, the builder of the plane will chime in > > > here. > > > Cliff > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey Cliff, > > > > > > > > > > > > I meant to ask about your starter: Do you use a permanent magnet (like > > > skytec) or wound field starter (like BC)? > > > > > > > > > > > > I am installing one + and one - cable from the battery. Each cable > will > > > have slightly less resistance than AWG 2 copper. Is that roughly > > equivalent > > > to your setup? > > > > > > > > > > > > Grant > > > > > > > > > > > > From: "Clifford Begnaud" shoeless@barefootpilot.com > > > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: O-235 Battery > > > > Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 11:07:16 -0600 > > > > > > > > -- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud" > > > shoeless@barefootpilot.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Grant, > > > > The prop is two blade, wood. > > > > I live in Erie, CO on an airpark (48V) elevation 5100'. > > > > I also use 95 mph IAS as maneuvering speed. If the air gets rough, I > > slow > > > it > > > > down, simple as that. Above 8000' or so, it will indicate 115-120 mph > > for > > > a > > > > TAS of 130. So the slow down is not as bad as you would think. This > > > doesn't > > > > mean you have to slow down this much just for some light chop. I don't > > > slow > > > > down for that at all. > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Cliff > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks again Cliff! I am located in San Luis Obispo, CA but want my > > > plane > > > > to be able to operate out of high elevation strips. Do you live in > > Idaho? > > > I > > > > don't remember off hand what the pitch onmy prop is - I will have to > > wait > > > to > > > > see what kind of performance I get out of it.Is yours a wood prop? Two > > or > > > > three blade? I'm guessing it is 2 bladed wood but want to make sure. > > > > > > > > > > > > Skystar says the maneuvering speed of the model 5 is ~95 mph. How do > > you > > > > deal with that knowing you cruise at 130 mph? > > > > > > > > > > > > Talk to you later, > > > > > > > > > > > > Grant > > > > > > > > > > > > From: "Clifford Begnaud" shoeless@barefootpilot.com > > > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: O-235 Battery > > > > Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 13:38:14 -0600 > > > > > > > > -- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud" > > > > shoeless@barefootpilot.com > > > > > > > > Grant, > > > > Our plane has about 300 hours TT and the engine was overhauled > before > > > > being > > > > installed, so it has the same hours. > > > > I think that the Ellison does contribute to the low fuel burn as > well > > as > > > > the > > > > LSE ignition. But I have never compared it to a carb. Keep in mind > > that > > > I > > > > only get 5.25 gph fuel burn above 7500' when cruising at 2600 rpm. > It > > > > burns > > > > more down low. > > > > > > > > Our prop is an Aymar Demuth, 72X47. I like it very much, but unless > > you > > > > operate out of short, high elevation airstrips, a little more pitch > > > would > > > > be > > > > appropriate. They don't have a web site that I know of, but their > > phone > > > > number is 410-461-4329. > > > > One nice thing that they do is on the leading edge protection, it is > > > made > > > > of > > > > ground steel mixed into some kind of epoxy or plastic and applied to > > the > > > > leading edge. It's very tough, but not indestructible. I'm in the > > middle > > > > of > > > > a repair right now. > > > > Be sure to put a big fat cable on that battery! > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Cliff > > > > PS, where are you located? > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank You for the awesome post, Cliff! You answered my questionmore! > I > > > > am using the airfoiled tail sectionsone LSE ignition until I burn > out > > > both > > > > mags when I will probably switch to two LSEs. I haven't checked out > > > > theEllison TB link yet but will be soon. I havechecked out the > > > > batterylinkand will be looking into using the 12 lb, 14 A-H battery. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have been wondering about the performance figures and am > pleasantly > > > > surprised by yours. How many hours does your plane have? Does the TB > > > > increase fuel efficiency over the carburetor? Although I have > already > > > > purchased a wood Sensenich prop, I am curious about yours. Could you > > > > please > > > > send me any info you might have on it? > > > > > > > > > > > > Grant, > > > > This is the battery in our kitfox with Lycoming 0-235. > > > > (http://www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?p=ODY-PC680) > > > > This battery is nothing short of amazing. It is mounted in the tail > > and > > > > will crank the engine tirelessly, not that it really needs to. ;-) > > > > With a light electrical load you may indeed be able to get by with a > > > > smaller > > > > battery. Batteries Plus has some AGM batteries that are about 9-10 > lbs > > > > and > > > > have 12 ah capacity. The key to good cranking power is to have the > > > > proper > > > > sized cable run back there to the battery. If you do, then a 12 ah > > > > battery > > > > would probably work. Also, if you are using the poly fiber process > and > > > > especially if you have the airfoiled tail surfaces, then the lighter > > > > battery > > > > should work fine for the CG. Worst case would be that you could bolt > > > > some > > > > lead to the towing mount hole near the aft end of the plane when > > flying > > > > solo. For any other loads, just pull it off. > > > > > > > > Also, if you want to assure that your engine will start, no matter > > what, > > > > be > > > > sure to use a primer and install one Lightspeed Engineering > electronic > > > > ignition, http://www.lightspeedengineering.com, along with one > magneto > > . > > > > Better yet, use an Ellison throttle body carb with the LSE, > > > > http://www.ellison-fluid-systems.com/. On our kitfox, we have two > LSE > > > > ignitions (no mags, hurray) and an Ellison carb. We can park the > plane > > > > out > > > > on a cold night (20 deg F) and the next morning we can "hand prop" > it > > > > with > > > > ONE flip of the prop. And that is with NO preheating!! Simply > amazing! > > > > This combination gives us a cruise speed of 130 mph at 2600 rpm, > > burning > > > > 5.25 gph. (we could go faster with a cruise prop) > > > > Please note that if you use two LSE ignitions, you should install a > > > > small > > > > 5 > > > > ah AGM battery as a backup, we did and this combination works great. > > > > BTW, the prop is an Aymar Demuth. > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Cliff > > > > ps, Let me know if you want more info on this setup > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello listers, > > > > > > > > > > > > I am building a series 5 TD w/O-235 and would like to put in the > > > > lightest > > > > batterypossible in the tail without having to add balast. My > > electrical > > > > requirements will not be very significant so I can get by > > > > electricallywith > > > > a > > > > light battery (11 AH min). I've been told that I cannot figure the > > > > Weight > > > > Balance before I cover so I don't know how to deal with this issue. > > Can > > > > someone help here? > > > > > > > > > > > > Can anyone here with the same configuration tell me how small your > > > > battery > > > > is? > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > Grant > > > > > > > > > > > > MSN 9 Dial-up Internet Access fights spam and pop-upsnow 3 months > FREE! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:13:52 AM PST US From: "Bruce Lina" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: O-235 Battery --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Lina" Thanks Vic, thats the RPM I need, I think I need a new prop. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vic Jacko" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: O-235 Battery > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Vic Jacko" > > Bruce, let me take a shot at this one then we will hear from Cliff to see > what he is getting. > > At density altitude 4,000 feet I was getting a static of 2450 rpm. Cliff > may get a little less because he is at a higher altitude > > Vic > > do not archive > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bruce Lina" > To: > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: O-235 Battery > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Lina" > > > > Cliff, What is your static RPM at full throttle with your engine and prop > > combo. I have a Continental IO-240 engine with a Sensenich wood prop and > can > > only achieve 2200 RPM static at full throttle. I know I could achieve > better > > TO and climb perf with a better prop , engine combo, but at a 1000 bucks a > > pop (or prop) as the case may be it gets a bit expensive to do the R & D. > > Thanks Bruce > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Clifford Begnaud" > > To: > > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: O-235 Battery > > > > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud" > > > > > > > > > > > Good question, perhaps Vic Jacko, the builder of the plane will chime in > > > here. > > > Cliff > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey Cliff, > > > > > > > > > > > > I meant to ask about your starter: Do you use a permanent magnet (like > > > skytec) or wound field starter (like BC)? > > > > > > > > > > > > I am installing one + and one - cable from the battery. Each cable > will > > > have slightly less resistance than AWG 2 copper. Is that roughly > > equivalent > > > to your setup? > > > > > > > > > > > > Grant > > > > > > > > > > > > From: "Clifford Begnaud" shoeless@barefootpilot.com > > > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: O-235 Battery > > > > Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 11:07:16 -0600 > > > > > > > > -- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud" > > > shoeless@barefootpilot.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Grant, > > > > The prop is two blade, wood. > > > > I live in Erie, CO on an airpark (48V) elevation 5100'. > > > > I also use 95 mph IAS as maneuvering speed. If the air gets rough, I > > slow > > > it > > > > down, simple as that. Above 8000' or so, it will indicate 115-120 mph > > for > > > a > > > > TAS of 130. So the slow down is not as bad as you would think. This > > > doesn't > > > > mean you have to slow down this much just for some light chop. I don't > > > slow > > > > down for that at all. > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Cliff > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks again Cliff! I am located in San Luis Obispo, CA but want my > > > plane > > > > to be able to operate out of high elevation strips. Do you live in > > Idaho? > > > I > > > > don't remember off hand what the pitch onmy prop is - I will have to > > wait > > > to > > > > see what kind of performance I get out of it.Is yours a wood prop? Two > > or > > > > three blade? I'm guessing it is 2 bladed wood but want to make sure. > > > > > > > > > > > > Skystar says the maneuvering speed of the model 5 is ~95 mph. How do > > you > > > > deal with that knowing you cruise at 130 mph? > > > > > > > > > > > > Talk to you later, > > > > > > > > > > > > Grant > > > > > > > > > > > > From: "Clifford Begnaud" shoeless@barefootpilot.com > > > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: O-235 Battery > > > > Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 13:38:14 -0600 > > > > > > > > -- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud" > > > > shoeless@barefootpilot.com > > > > > > > > Grant, > > > > Our plane has about 300 hours TT and the engine was overhauled > before > > > > being > > > > installed, so it has the same hours. > > > > I think that the Ellison does contribute to the low fuel burn as > well > > as > > > > the > > > > LSE ignition. But I have never compared it to a carb. Keep in mind > > that > > > I > > > > only get 5.25 gph fuel burn above 7500' when cruising at 2600 rpm. > It > > > > burns > > > > more down low. > > > > > > > > Our prop is an Aymar Demuth, 72X47. I like it very much, but unless > > you > > > > operate out of short, high elevation airstrips, a little more pitch > > > would > > > > be > > > > appropriate. They don't have a web site that I know of, but their > > phone > > > > number is 410-461-4329. > > > > One nice thing that they do is on the leading edge protection, it is > > > made > > > > of > > > > ground steel mixed into some kind of epoxy or plastic and applied to > > the > > > > leading edge. It's very tough, but not indestructible. I'm in the > > middle > > > > of > > > > a repair right now. > > > > Be sure to put a big fat cable on that battery! > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Cliff > > > > PS, where are you located? > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank You for the awesome post, Cliff! You answered my questionmore! > I > > > > am using the airfoiled tail sectionsone LSE ignition until I burn > out > > > both > > > > mags when I will probably switch to two LSEs. I haven't checked out > > > > theEllison TB link yet but will be soon. I havechecked out the > > > > batterylinkand will be looking into using the 12 lb, 14 A-H battery. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have been wondering about the performance figures and am > pleasantly > > > > surprised by yours. How many hours does your plane have? Does the TB > > > > increase fuel efficiency over the carburetor? Although I have > already > > > > purchased a wood Sensenich prop, I am curious about yours. Could you > > > > please > > > > send me any info you might have on it? > > > > > > > > > > > > Grant, > > > > This is the battery in our kitfox with Lycoming 0-235. > > > > (http://www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?p=ODY-PC680) > > > > This battery is nothing short of amazing. It is mounted in the tail > > and > > > > will crank the engine tirelessly, not that it really needs to. ;-) > > > > With a light electrical load you may indeed be able to get by with a > > > > smaller > > > > battery. Batteries Plus has some AGM batteries that are about 9-10 > lbs > > > > and > > > > have 12 ah capacity. The key to good cranking power is to have the > > > > proper > > > > sized cable run back there to the battery. If you do, then a 12 ah > > > > battery > > > > would probably work. Also, if you are using the poly fiber process > and > > > > especially if you have the airfoiled tail surfaces, then the lighter > > > > battery > > > > should work fine for the CG. Worst case would be that you could bolt > > > > some > > > > lead to the towing mount hole near the aft end of the plane when > > flying > > > > solo. For any other loads, just pull it off. > > > > > > > > Also, if you want to assure that your engine will start, no matter > > what, > > > > be > > > > sure to use a primer and install one Lightspeed Engineering > electronic > > > > ignition, http://www.lightspeedengineering.com, along with one > magneto > > . > > > > Better yet, use an Ellison throttle body carb with the LSE, > > > > http://www.ellison-fluid-systems.com/. On our kitfox, we have two > LSE > > > > ignitions (no mags, hurray) and an Ellison carb. We can park the > plane > > > > out > > > > on a cold night (20 deg F) and the next morning we can "hand prop" > it > > > > with > > > > ONE flip of the prop. And that is with NO preheating!! Simply > amazing! > > > > This combination gives us a cruise speed of 130 mph at 2600 rpm, > > burning > > > > 5.25 gph. (we could go faster with a cruise prop) > > > > Please note that if you use two LSE ignitions, you should install a > > > > small > > > > 5 > > > > ah AGM battery as a backup, we did and this combination works great. > > > > BTW, the prop is an Aymar Demuth. > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Cliff > > > > ps, Let me know if you want more info on this setup > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello listers, > > > > > > > > > > > > I am building a series 5 TD w/O-235 and would like to put in the > > > > lightest > > > > batterypossible in the tail without having to add balast. My > > electrical > > > > requirements will not be very significant so I can get by > > > > electricallywith > > > > a > > > > light battery (11 AH min). I've been told that I cannot figure the > > > > Weight > > > > Balance before I cover so I don't know how to deal with this issue. > > Can > > > > someone help here? > > > > > > > > > > > > Can anyone here with the same configuration tell me how small your > > > > battery > > > > is? > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > Grant > > > > > > > > > > > > MSN 9 Dial-up Internet Access fights spam and pop-upsnow 3 months > FREE! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:27:03 AM PST US From: "Marc Arseneault" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Marc Arseneault" Congradgulations Norm and Great Story! Best Regards, Marc Arseneault ly 2nd 96 At that time I didn't even have my license. I got it a year and a half later after I retired. I have lost my medical twice, gone non current, just finished twenty hours tail dragger training, and passed a BFR. From the days of a tow headed kid in 1945 standing in a barn yard watching those war birds we love to go see today at air show, go over for real. Wondering what it would be like to be able to fly an airplane. Today I know what it's like to be able to build and fly an airplane. Its a great country we live in. I don't know the rate of climb, I forgot to check. My ground persons radio went on the fritz shortly after take off and he was going to question me for the important stuff. The ASI didn't work, and it took me three tries to land, but the training I had in the Champ paid off. I could feel it. Thanks to those of you who have shared in this with your thoughts and ideas that I have use over ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:03:25 AM PST US From: "Clifford Begnaud" Subject: Re: Props; was: Kitfox-List: O-235 Battery --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud" Bruce, Definitely sounds like you have a cruise prop. If you get another, consider the Aymar Demuth, they are very nice and well balanced with nice leading edge protection. I guess the big question now is what pitch to get. At 47" ours is probably the best compromise that we could ask for. I suspect that with the electronic ignitions and Ellison carb, that our engines power output is very close to yours. Talk with AD, they can probably help you pick the ideal prop for your engine. Keep in mind that they have a 6 month backlog. 410-461-4329 Good luck and let us know what you decide to do. Cliff do not archive > > Hi Cliff, Thanks for the quick and thorough response. From the sound of it , > I am losing lots of performance because of my prop. Specifically, my prop is > a Sensenich W74EK-2-58 which is their middle of the road prop in terms of > pitch. The manufacturer cut the prop down to 72 inches and the pitch is 58 > (the other props they recommend for the kitfox are pitched to 56 and 60 > respectively). Other guys with my prop - engine installation are getting the > same RPM as I am. My airplane is heavy because of my engine installation > (better than 250 lbs ) and I come in at 967 lb empty weight. Solo at about > 1250 lb TO weight, I get airborne in 400 feet and climb at 1000-1100 FPM at > best rate of climb speed of 70 MPH. At gross weight my TO roll doubles to > 700-800 feet and climb rate is an anemic 600-700 FPM. I think I need a new > prop One guy I know who used to run a 3 bladed warp drive on his IO-240 > powered Kitfox (until they were recalled for cracking) claimed TO and climb > pefr similar to what you are getting. Thanks Bruce > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Clifford Begnaud" > To: > Subject: Props; was: Kitfox-List: O-235 Battery > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:20:13 AM PST US From: "Vic Jacko" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Another Fox Flies pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- ------------------------------------------- --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Vic Jacko" Norm, congratulations on a job well done, Last time I visited with you the airplane was in major assemblies and now it is "one". Fly on brethren and enjoy! Vic do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Norm Beauchamp" description ---- ---------------------- ------------------------------------ ------- > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Norm Beauchamp > > I passed the inspection today and flew N66180 (" Nothin Fancy") today . > Its been a long haul, I'm slow, but Don't Ever Give Up!!!. The kit > was delivered July 2nd 96 At that time I didn't even have my license. > I got it a year and a half later after I retired. I have lost my medical > twice, gone non current, just finished twenty hours tail dragger > training, and passed a BFR. From the days of a tow headed kid in 1945 > standing in a barn yard watching those war birds we love to go see today > at air show, go over for real. Wondering what it would be like to be > able to fly an airplane. Today I know what it's like to be able to > build and fly an airplane. Its a great country we live in. I don't > know the rate of climb, I forgot to check. My ground persons radio went > on the fritz shortly after take off and he was going to question me for > the important stuff. The ASI didn't work, and it took me three tries to > land, but the training I had in the Champ paid off. I could feel it. > > Thanks to those of you who have shared in this with your thoughts and > ideas that I have use over the years. To the ones who are still on the > list, now, in the past, and to those who have gone on. > > We leave tomorrow for upstate NY to go to one of our Granddaughter's > graduation from high school. I couldn't wait a week now could I?. > Later Norm. San Angelo Tx. > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:22:01 AM PST US From: W Duke Subject: Re: Props; was: Kitfox-List: O-235 Battery --> Kitfox-List message posted by: W Duke Bruce/Cliff I have similar static RPM and performance with Bruce. I have an IO240 and same prop except for Bruce's being cut down. Did you have Sensenich cut it for you? I just ordered the prop without any special requests. Maxwell Duke S6/IO240/Phase II Flight Testing --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:37:16 AM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Another Fox Flies pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- ------------------------------------------- --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Good News Norm. Have fun! Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Norm Beauchamp" description ---- ---------------------- ------------------------------------ ------- > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Norm Beauchamp > > I passed the inspection today and flew N66180 (" Nothin Fancy") today . > Its been a long haul, I'm slow, but Don't Ever Give Up!!!. The kit > was delivered July 2nd 96 At that time I didn't even have my license. > I got it a year and a half later after I retired. I have lost my medical > twice, gone non current, just finished twenty hours tail dragger > training, and passed a BFR. From the days of a tow headed kid in 1945 > standing in a barn yard watching those war birds we love to go see today > at air show, go over for real. Wondering what it would be like to be > able to fly an airplane. Today I know what it's like to be able to > build and fly an airplane. Its a great country we live in. I don't > know the rate of climb, I forgot to check. My ground persons radio went > on the fritz shortly after take off and he was going to question me for > the important stuff. The ASI didn't work, and it took me three tries to > land, but the training I had in the Champ paid off. I could feel it. > > Thanks to those of you who have shared in this with your thoughts and > ideas that I have use over the years. To the ones who are still on the > list, now, in the past, and to those who have gone on. > > We leave tomorrow for upstate NY to go to one of our Granddaughter's > graduation from high school. I couldn't wait a week now could I?. > Later Norm. San Angelo Tx. > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:47:39 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Another Fox Flies --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe Norm Beauchamp wrote: > Wondering what it would be like to be able to fly an airplane. Now you know, Norm! Congrats and many happy years of flying to come! Give our love to your grand-daughter for her graduation. If one thing is greater than a Kitfox, it must surely be to have children and grand-children. Cheers, Michel do not archive ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:07:39 AM PST US From: Fred Shiple Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Another Fox Flies pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- ------------------------------------------- --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Fred Shiple Way to go Norm. Congratulations. Here's to many pleasant flights! Fred I passed the inspection today and flew N66180 do not archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:56:07 AM PST US From: Marco Menezes Subject: Kitfox-List: KF Mod 2, Rotax 582, Primer & Header vent --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Marco Menezes I have recently purchased a "98% complete" KF Mod 2 with Rotax 582. Among the boxes of uninstalled parts was a fuel primer kit. Unfortunately, there were no directions and Skystar has been less than cooperative. I have T'ed the primer intake line just downstream of mail fuel shut-off valve. Primer output then goes thru firewall, splits, one line going to each of 2 Bing carbs. However, primer kit parts are left over and Kitfox engine manual shows a line from top of gascolator going thru firewall into cabin. Is this part of primer system too? How is it supposed to connect? Question 2: Prior owner installed plastic header tank aft of cabin. Heehas the hader tank vent opening plugged. Manuals make reference to a vent line from header tank to right wing tank (both wing tanks are vented via fuel caps) but do not show how this connection is supposed to be made. Got any ideas? Thanks, Marco Menezes --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:47:29 PM PST US Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 912 Quad Gauge, bad ground? From: "Steve Magdic" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Magdic" Checked all grounds and re-routed most of the wiring. Ran the engine with no change. After flying, I taxied over to the hanger and shut off both mags leaving the Master switch on. The oil temp gauge moved immediately from 260 to 180 degrees and the coolant temp dropped from 220 to 140. Also, when flying, I can point the nose down, pull the throttle to idle and watch the oil temp/ water temp gauges drop the same as shutting down the engine. I'm beginning to suspect the voltage regulator (not regulating) or the gauge itself (is there some kind of voltage limiter built in).. I hate electricity... Steve "still troubleshooting" Magdic -----Original Message----- From: flier [mailto:FLIER@sbcglobal.net] Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912 Quad Gauge, bad ground? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "flier" Steve, Check your ground from the engine to battery & frame. Make sure it's tight and oxidation free. I had a problem before with an oil pressure sensor I thought was bad doing the same thing. It ended up being due to a very slight resistance in my ground that affected the sensor. Regards, Ted --- Original Message --- From: "Steve Magdic" Subject: Kitfox-List: 912 Quad Gauge >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Magdic" > >Fellow KitFox owners, perhaps the vast knowledge of this group could help steer me in the proper direction >to trouble shoot this problem. >I own a model 3 with a 912 powerplant. I have a quad gauge installed for engine monitoring that >has the EGT, CHT, Oil Temp and Oil Pressure. The problem I am experiencing is this, as I apply >throttle from 3/4 to WOT, the needles on the oil pressure, oil temperature and CHT all rotate in >a CCW direction imitating throttle movement. As I reduce throttle, these same needles will rotate >in a clockwise direction. >I know my oil and CHT temps can not rise and cool as rapidly as the gauges read. I assume >there is some sort of electrical or magnetic interference. >I have traced the wire harness and have found nothing obvious that could cause this anomaly. >The power to this gauge comes from a power panel which is fed from the 12 volts DC put out by the >engine. >I don't want to spend the $360 for a new quad gauge and senders if I don't have to. >Any suggestions would be much appreciated. >Thanks, >Steve Magdic >Sussex WI > > >_- ====================================================== ================== Contributions any other Forums. >_- ====================================================== ================== >_- ====================================================== ================== http://www.matronics.com/subscription http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list http://www.matronics.com/archives http://www.matronics.com/photoshare list http://www.matronics.com/emaillists http://www.matronics.com/contribution >_- ====================================================== ================== > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:54:04 PM PST US From: "Vic Jacko" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912 Quad Gauge, bad ground? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Vic Jacko" Steve, I think you just hit it and caused my fading brain to remember. I had a similar problem as you and it turned out to be a voltage regulator inside the gauge which if I remember is supposed to regulate the voltage at about 5 volts. My problem is the gauge would not read correct at all and they repaired it "free". Vic ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Magdic" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 912 Quad Gauge, bad ground? > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Magdic" > > Checked all grounds and re-routed most of the wiring. Ran the engine with no change. > After flying, I taxied over to the hanger and shut off both mags leaving the Master switch on. > The oil temp gauge moved immediately from 260 to 180 degrees and the coolant temp dropped from > 220 to 140. > Also, when flying, I can point the nose down, pull the throttle to idle and watch the oil temp/ > water temp gauges drop the same as shutting down the engine. I'm beginning to suspect the voltage > regulator (not regulating) or the gauge itself (is there some kind of voltage limiter built in).. > I hate electricity... > Steve "still troubleshooting" Magdic > > -----Original Message----- > From: flier [mailto:FLIER@sbcglobal.net] > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912 Quad Gauge, bad ground? > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "flier" > > Steve, > > Check your ground from the engine to battery & > frame. Make sure it's tight and oxidation free. > > I had a problem before with an oil pressure sensor I > thought was bad doing the same thing. It ended up > being due to a very slight resistance in my ground > that affected the sensor. > > Regards, > > Ted > > > --- Original Message --- > From: "Steve Magdic" > To: > Subject: Kitfox-List: 912 Quad Gauge > > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Magdic" > > > > >Fellow KitFox owners, perhaps the vast knowledge of > this group could help steer me in the proper direction > >to trouble shoot this problem. > >I own a model 3 with a 912 powerplant. I have a quad > gauge installed for engine monitoring that > >has the EGT, CHT, Oil Temp and Oil Pressure. The > problem I am experiencing is this, as I apply > >throttle from 3/4 to WOT, the needles on the oil > pressure, oil temperature and CHT all rotate in > >a CCW direction imitating throttle movement. As I > reduce throttle, these same needles will rotate > >in a clockwise direction. > >I know my oil and CHT temps can not rise and cool as > rapidly as the gauges read. I assume > >there is some sort of electrical or magnetic > interference. > >I have traced the wire harness and have found > nothing obvious that could cause this anomaly. > >The power to this gauge comes from a power panel > which is fed from the 12 volts DC put out by the > >engine. > >I don't want to spend the $360 for a new quad gauge > and senders if I don't have to. > >Any suggestions would be much appreciated. > >Thanks, > >Steve Magdic > >Sussex WI > > > > > >_- > ====================================================== > ================== > Contributions > any other > Forums. > >_- > ====================================================== > ================== > >_- > ====================================================== > ================== > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > list > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > >_- > ====================================================== > ================== > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:06:52 PM PST US Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 912 Quad Gauge, bad ground? From: "Steve Magdic" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Magdic" Thanks Vic, I'll go that direction and let you know the results. Do not archive. -----Original Message----- From: Vic Jacko [mailto:vicwj@earthlink.net] Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912 Quad Gauge, bad ground? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Vic Jacko" Steve, I think you just hit it and caused my fading brain to remember. I had a similar problem as you and it turned out to be a voltage regulator inside the gauge which if I remember is supposed to regulate the voltage at about 5 volts. My problem is the gauge would not read correct at all and they repaired it "free". Vic ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Magdic" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 912 Quad Gauge, bad ground? > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Magdic" > > Checked all grounds and re-routed most of the wiring. Ran the engine with no change. > After flying, I taxied over to the hanger and shut off both mags leaving the Master switch on. > The oil temp gauge moved immediately from 260 to 180 degrees and the coolant temp dropped from > 220 to 140. > Also, when flying, I can point the nose down, pull the throttle to idle and watch the oil temp/ > water temp gauges drop the same as shutting down the engine. I'm beginning to suspect the voltage > regulator (not regulating) or the gauge itself (is there some kind of voltage limiter built in).. > I hate electricity... > Steve "still troubleshooting" Magdic > > -----Original Message----- > From: flier [mailto:FLIER@sbcglobal.net] > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912 Quad Gauge, bad ground? > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "flier" > > Steve, > > Check your ground from the engine to battery & > frame. Make sure it's tight and oxidation free. > > I had a problem before with an oil pressure sensor I > thought was bad doing the same thing. It ended up > being due to a very slight resistance in my ground > that affected the sensor. > > Regards, > > Ted > > > --- Original Message --- > From: "Steve Magdic" > To: > Subject: Kitfox-List: 912 Quad Gauge > > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Magdic" > > > > >Fellow KitFox owners, perhaps the vast knowledge of > this group could help steer me in the proper direction > >to trouble shoot this problem. > >I own a model 3 with a 912 powerplant. I have a quad > gauge installed for engine monitoring that > >has the EGT, CHT, Oil Temp and Oil Pressure. The > problem I am experiencing is this, as I apply > >throttle from 3/4 to WOT, the needles on the oil > pressure, oil temperature and CHT all rotate in > >a CCW direction imitating throttle movement. As I > reduce throttle, these same needles will rotate > >in a clockwise direction. > >I know my oil and CHT temps can not rise and cool as > rapidly as the gauges read. I assume > >there is some sort of electrical or magnetic > interference. > >I have traced the wire harness and have found > nothing obvious that could cause this anomaly. > >The power to this gauge comes from a power panel > which is fed from the 12 volts DC put out by the > >engine. > >I don't want to spend the $360 for a new quad gauge > and senders if I don't have to. > >Any suggestions would be much appreciated. > >Thanks, > >Steve Magdic > >Sussex WI > > > > > >_- > ====================================================== > ================== > Contributions > any other > Forums. > >_- > ====================================================== > ================== > >_- > ====================================================== > ================== > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > list > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > >_- > ====================================================== > ================== > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:12:08 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: KF Mod 2, Rotax 582, Primer & Header vent --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Marco, I am not sure, but I don't remember Skystar ever offering a primer for the 582. If that is the case, I don't think it is surprising that they don't offer technical assistance in that area. As far as the header tank vent is concerned, The early Kitfoxes didn't vent the header tank, in fact I don't think the I or II had any options except the panel tank - with wing tanks for transfilling the panel tank. In other words, they didn't come with a header tank and I doubt it was an option at that time. If your right tank doesn't have the vent provision - a barb fitting near the top of the inboard end, above the sight gauge - then I suspect your tanks are of this vintage. What you probably have are some upgrades that the previous builder decided to implement I am sure that someone with a I or II that has made the change can help you in that area. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marco Menezes" To: Subject: Kitfox-List: KF Mod 2, Rotax 582, Primer & Header vent > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Marco Menezes > > I have recently purchased a "98% complete" KF Mod 2 with Rotax 582. Among the boxes of uninstalled parts was a fuel primer kit. Unfortunately, there were no directions and Skystar has been less than cooperative. I have T'ed the primer intake line just downstream of mail fuel shut-off valve. Primer output then goes thru firewall, splits, one line going to each of 2 Bing carbs. However, primer kit parts are left over and Kitfox engine manual shows a line from top of gascolator going thru firewall into cabin. Is this part of primer system too? How is it supposed to connect? > > Question 2: Prior owner installed plastic header tank aft of cabin. Heehas the hader tank vent opening plugged. Manuals make reference to a vent line from header tank to right wing tank (both wing tanks are vented via fuel caps) but do not show how this connection is supposed to be made. Got any ideas? > > Thanks, > Marco Menezes > > > --------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:15:49 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912 Quad Gauge, bad ground? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Try WesTach 1-800-400-7024 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Magdic" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 912 Quad Gauge, bad ground? > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Magdic" > > Checked all grounds and re-routed most of the wiring. Ran the engine with no change. > After flying, I taxied over to the hanger and shut off both mags leaving the Master switch on. > The oil temp gauge moved immediately from 260 to 180 degrees and the coolant temp dropped from > 220 to 140. > Also, when flying, I can point the nose down, pull the throttle to idle and watch the oil temp/ > water temp gauges drop the same as shutting down the engine. I'm beginning to suspect the voltage > regulator (not regulating) or the gauge itself (is there some kind of voltage limiter built in).. > I hate electricity... > Steve "still troubleshooting" Magdic > > -----Original Message----- > From: flier [mailto:FLIER@sbcglobal.net] > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912 Quad Gauge, bad ground? > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "flier" > > Steve, > > Check your ground from the engine to battery & > frame. Make sure it's tight and oxidation free. > > I had a problem before with an oil pressure sensor I > thought was bad doing the same thing. It ended up > being due to a very slight resistance in my ground > that affected the sensor. > > Regards, > > Ted > > > --- Original Message --- > From: "Steve Magdic" > To: > Subject: Kitfox-List: 912 Quad Gauge > > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Magdic" > > > > >Fellow KitFox owners, perhaps the vast knowledge of > this group could help steer me in the proper direction > >to trouble shoot this problem. > >I own a model 3 with a 912 powerplant. I have a quad > gauge installed for engine monitoring that > >has the EGT, CHT, Oil Temp and Oil Pressure. The > problem I am experiencing is this, as I apply > >throttle from 3/4 to WOT, the needles on the oil > pressure, oil temperature and CHT all rotate in > >a CCW direction imitating throttle movement. As I > reduce throttle, these same needles will rotate > >in a clockwise direction. > >I know my oil and CHT temps can not rise and cool as > rapidly as the gauges read. I assume > >there is some sort of electrical or magnetic > interference. > >I have traced the wire harness and have found > nothing obvious that could cause this anomaly. > >The power to this gauge comes from a power panel > which is fed from the 12 volts DC put out by the > >engine. > >I don't want to spend the $360 for a new quad gauge > and senders if I don't have to. > >Any suggestions would be much appreciated. > >Thanks, > >Steve Magdic > >Sussex WI > > > > > >_- > ====================================================== > ================== > Contributions > any other > Forums. > >_- > ====================================================== > ================== > >_- > ====================================================== > ================== > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > list > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > >_- > ====================================================== > ================== > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:18:34 PM PST US From: "Bob Robertson" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: KF Mod 2, Rotax 582, Primer & Header vent --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Robertson" Marco, I can't comment on the header tank, but might shed some light regarding the primer plumbing. The fitting on top of the gascolator is often used as a supply line to the primer pump. You have eliminated this by "Teeing" into the regular fuel line. Both was are more than acceptable. The reason the gascolator is used is simply there would be one less connection in the fuel system. Also that is the lowest part of the fuel system and there should always be a supply of gasoline for the primer pump. regards--hope this helps Bob Robertson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marco Menezes" To: Subject: Kitfox-List: KF Mod 2, Rotax 582, Primer & Header vent > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Marco Menezes > > I have recently purchased a "98% complete" KF Mod 2 with Rotax 582. Among the boxes of uninstalled parts was a fuel primer kit. Unfortunately, there were no directions and Skystar has been less than cooperative. I have T'ed the primer intake line just downstream of mail fuel shut-off valve. Primer output then goes thru firewall, splits, one line going to each of 2 Bing carbs. However, primer kit parts are left over and Kitfox engine manual shows a line from top of gascolator going thru firewall into cabin. Is this part of primer system too? How is it supposed to connect? > > Question 2: Prior owner installed plastic header tank aft of cabin. Heehas the hader tank vent opening plugged. Manuals make reference to a vent line from header tank to right wing tank (both wing tanks are vented via fuel caps) but do not show how this connection is supposed to be made. Got any ideas? > > Thanks, > Marco Menezes > > > --------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:22:24 PM PST US From: "flier" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 912 Quad Gauge, bad ground? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "flier" Does your ammeter/voltmeter show the change? Your voltage shouldn't be moving around that much if you have a reasonable load (less than 17amps) and the regulator is operating properly. If you've got a small 12v battery handy and can separate the hot wire for the gauges, throw it in the seat, ground it, and use it to power the gauges and see what happens. Regards, Ted --- Original Message --- From: "Steve Magdic" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 912 Quad Gauge, bad ground? >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Magdic" > >Checked all grounds and re-routed most of the wiring. Ran the engine with no change. >After flying, I taxied over to the hanger and shut off both mags leaving the Master switch on. >The oil temp gauge moved immediately from 260 to 180 degrees and the coolant temp dropped from >220 to 140. >Also, when flying, I can point the nose down, pull the throttle to idle and watch the oil temp/ >water temp gauges drop the same as shutting down the engine. I'm beginning to suspect the voltage >regulator (not regulating) or the gauge itself (is there some kind of voltage limiter built in).. >I hate electricity... >Steve "still troubleshooting" Magdic > >-----Original Message----- >From: flier [mailto:FLIER@sbcglobal.net] >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912 Quad Gauge, bad ground? > > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "flier" > >Steve, > >Check your ground from the engine to battery & >frame. Make sure it's tight and oxidation free. > >I had a problem before with an oil pressure sensor I >thought was bad doing the same thing. It ended up >being due to a very slight resistance in my ground >that affected the sensor. > >Regards, > >Ted > > >--- Original Message --- >From: "Steve Magdic" >To: >Subject: Kitfox-List: 912 Quad Gauge > >>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Magdic" > >> >>Fellow KitFox owners, perhaps the vast knowledge of >this group could help steer me in the proper direction >>to trouble shoot this problem. >>I own a model 3 with a 912 powerplant. I have a quad >gauge installed for engine monitoring that >>has the EGT, CHT, Oil Temp and Oil Pressure. The >problem I am experiencing is this, as I apply >>throttle from 3/4 to WOT, the needles on the oil >pressure, oil temperature and CHT all rotate in >>a CCW direction imitating throttle movement. As I >reduce throttle, these same needles will rotate >>in a clockwise direction. >>I know my oil and CHT temps can not rise and cool as >rapidly as the gauges read. I assume >>there is some sort of electrical or magnetic >interference. >>I have traced the wire harness and have found >nothing obvious that could cause this anomaly. >>The power to this gauge comes from a power panel >which is fed from the 12 volts DC put out by the >>engine. >>I don't want to spend the $360 for a new quad gauge >and senders if I don't have to. >>Any suggestions would be much appreciated. >>Thanks, >>Steve Magdic >>Sussex WI >> >> >>_- >===================================================== = >================== >Contributions >any other >Forums. >>_- >===================================================== = >================== >>_- >===================================================== = >================== >http://www.matronics.com/subscription >http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm >http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list >http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list >http://www.matronics.com/archives >http://www.matronics.com/photoshare >list >http://www.matronics.com/emaillists >>_- >===================================================== = >================== >> >> > > >_- ====================================================== ================== Contributions any other Forums. >_- ====================================================== ================== >_- ====================================================== ================== http://www.matronics.com/subscription http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list http://www.matronics.com/archives http://www.matronics.com/photoshare list http://www.matronics.com/emaillists http://www.matronics.com/contribution >_- ====================================================== ================== > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:24:28 PM PST US From: Marco Menezes Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: KF Mod 2, Rotax 582, Primer & Header vent --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Marco Menezes Thanks Lowell. In reading the previous builder's log, it seems long ago he had installed the panel tank (round, aluminum) and then removed it later on and upgraded to the plastic header tank aft of cabin. The right wing tank has only a brass barbed fitting for the 3/8" ID fuel line to header tank, nothing for a vent line. There are no sight gauges, rather dial gauges (presumably float type?) on each wing tank. Lowell Fitt wrote:--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Marco, I am not sure, but I don't remember Skystar ever offering a primer for the 582. If that is the case, I don't think it is surprising that they don't offer technical assistance in that area. As far as the header tank vent is concerned, The early Kitfoxes didn't vent the header tank, in fact I don't think the I or II had any options except the panel tank - with wing tanks for transfilling the panel tank. In other words, they didn't come with a header tank and I doubt it was an option at that time. If your right tank doesn't have the vent provision - a barb fitting near the top of the inboard end, above the sight gauge - then I suspect your tanks are of this vintage. What you probably have are some upgrades that the previous builder decided to implement I am sure that someone with a I or II that has made the change can help you in that area. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marco Menezes" To: ----.-------------------------------------------> Subject: Kitfox-List: KF Mod 2, Rotax 582, Primer & Header vent > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Marco Menezes > > I have recently purchased a "98% complete" KF Mod 2 with Rotax 582. Among the boxes of uninstalled parts was a fuel primer kit. Unfortunately, there were no directions and Skystar has been less than cooperative. I have T'ed the primer intake line just downstream of mail fuel shut-off valve. Primer output then goes thru firewall, splits, one line going to each of 2 Bing carbs. However, primer kit parts are left over and Kitfox engine manual shows a line from top of gascolator going thru firewall into cabin. Is this part of primer system too? How is it supposed to connect? > > Question 2: Prior owner installed plastic header tank aft of cabin. Heehas the hader tank vent opening plugged. Manuals make reference to a vent line from header tank to right wing tank (both wing tanks are vented via fuel caps) but do not show how this connection is supposed to be made. Got any ideas? > > Thanks, > Marco Menezes > > > --------------------------------- > > --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:31:58 PM PST US From: Marco Menezes Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: KF Mod 2, Rotax 582, Primer & Header vent --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Marco Menezes Thanks Bob. That helps alot. I'll just plug the gascolator fitting and go from there. do not archive. Bob Robertson wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Robertson" Marco, I can't comment on the header tank, but might shed some light regarding the primer plumbing. The fitting on top of the gascolator is often used as a supply line to the primer pump. You have eliminated this by "Teeing" into the regular fuel line. Both was are more than acceptable. The reason the gascolator is used is simply there would be one less connection in the fuel system. Also that is the lowest part of the fuel system and there should always be a supply of gasoline for the primer pump. regards--hope this helps Bob Robertson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marco Menezes" To: ----.-------------------------------------------> Subject: Kitfox-List: KF Mod 2, Rotax 582, Primer & Header vent > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Marco Menezes > > I have recently purchased a "98% complete" KF Mod 2 with Rotax 582. Among the boxes of uninstalled parts was a fuel primer kit. Unfortunately, there were no directions and Skystar has been less than cooperative. I have T'ed the primer intake line just downstream of mail fuel shut-off valve. Primer output then goes thru firewall, splits, one line going to each of 2 Bing carbs. However, primer kit parts are left over and Kitfox engine manual shows a line from top of gascolator going thru firewall into cabin. Is this part of primer system too? How is it supposed to connect? > > Question 2: Prior owner installed plastic header tank aft of cabin. Heehas the hader tank vent opening plugged. Manuals make reference to a vent line from header tank to right wing tank (both wing tanks are vented via fuel caps) but do not show how this connection is supposed to be made. Got any ideas? > > Thanks, > Marco Menezes > > > --------------------------------- > > --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 01:43:41 PM PST US From: AlbertaIV@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: KF Mod 2, Rotax 582, Primer & Header vent --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com Marco, See below > I have recently purchased a "98% complete" KF Mod 2 with Rotax 582. Among > the boxes of uninstalled parts was a fuel primer kit. Unfortunately, there > were no directions and Skystar has been less than cooperative. I have T'ed the > primer intake line just downstream of mail fuel shut-off valve. Primer output > then goes thru firewall, splits, one line going to each of 2 Bing carbs. > However, primer kit parts are left over and Kitfox engine manual shows a line > from top of gascolator going thru firewall into cabin. Is this part of primer > system too? How is it supposed to connect? > Sounds like you have what you need for a primer circuit. The primer just picks up fuel and pumps it into the carb primer inputs. I don't use a gascolator but can't imagine what it might have to do with the primer circuit. > Question 2: Prior owner installed plastic header tank aft of cabin. Heehas > the hader tank vent opening plugged. Manuals make reference to a vent line > from header tank to right wing tank (both wing tanks are vented via fuel caps) > but do not show how this connection is supposed to be made. Got any ideas? If the right tank has a fitting (or place for a fitting) near the top inboard center of the wing tank, that is were the vent should attach. If you don't have a fitting on the tank, you "could" simply put a valve in the vent line of the header and use it as a pre-flight to open/drain a small amount of fuel to insure the header is full. Once full, close the valve. The header will "vent" through the wing tank supply lines. I would consider replacing both supply lines with 3/8" polyurethane. You can see the fuel through the lines and watch the transfer of air bubbles from the header. Don Smythe DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 01:50:11 PM PST US From: "Bruce Lina" Subject: Re: Props; was: Kitfox-List: O-235 Battery --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Lina" Maxwell, My prop came from Sensenich at the 72" length. Even though the prop designation is 74 '' , it came in a 72 inch length. I think we could do a whole lot better in the TO and climb department with the 2450 RPM that Cliff gets with his O-235/ prop combo. I do not think that those of us with the IO-240/ Sensenich prop combo are utilizing our engines power to its full advantage. Next question is , who is going to spend the 1000 bucks to test my theory? Bruce ----- Original Message ----- From: "W Duke" Subject: Re: Props; was: Kitfox-List: O-235 Battery > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: W Duke > > Bruce/Cliff > I have similar static RPM and performance with Bruce. I have an IO240 and same prop except for Bruce's being cut down. Did you have Sensenich cut it for you? I just ordered the prop without any special requests. > > > Maxwell Duke > S6/IO240/Phase II Flight Testing > > --------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 04:29:05 PM PST US From: "Clifford Begnaud" Subject: Re: Props; was: Kitfox-List: O-235 Battery --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud" Well, if one of you guys with the I0-240 would fly here, I would be happy to let you try my prop. Assuming these engines have the same bolt pattern. Who's the closest to Erie, Colorado (48V)? Haven't heard from Jeff Hays during this thread, he and I are supposed to have a duel. If he wasn't such a coward and would get his rear end over here we could take care of both issues at the same time. How about it Jeff? Cliff > > Maxwell, My prop came from Sensenich at the 72" length. Even though the prop > designation is 74 '' , it came in a 72 inch length. I think we could do a > whole lot better in the TO and climb department with the 2450 RPM that Cliff > gets with his O-235/ prop combo. I do not think that those of us with the > IO-240/ Sensenich prop combo are utilizing our engines power to its full > advantage. Next question is , who is going to spend the 1000 bucks to test > my theory? Bruce > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "W Duke" > To: > Subject: Re: Props; was: Kitfox-List: O-235 Battery > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: W Duke > > > > Bruce/Cliff > > I have similar static RPM and performance with Bruce. I have an IO240 > and same prop except for Bruce's being cut down. Did you have Sensenich cut > it for you? I just ordered the prop without any special requests. > > > > > > Maxwell Duke > > S6/IO240/Phase II Flight Testing > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 06:19:54 PM PST US From: "Jeff Hays" Subject: RE: Props; was: Kitfox-List: O-235 Battery --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jeff Hays" I agree with Bruce about the prop. With a light load on the plane it goes up like a missile, but you put some weight in it, with the engine loaded down by the prop it can be a bit doggy. But knowing Bruce, I'd say mostly his cheapness and poor pilot skills are what are really hindering his getting max performance out of his plane. :) With regard to you Cliff, I'm still tring to calculate how many billiard balls I can put in my cluster bomb (er. cargo pod) before my next flight over 48V airport, that'll solve the performance disparity issue once and for all :) The real truth is, my wife has had me so busy with home improvement work, that I haven't even flown in a month ... Let alone time to stir up list trouble. -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Clifford Begnaud Subject: Re: Props; was: Kitfox-List: O-235 Battery --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud" Well, if one of you guys with the I0-240 would fly here, I would be happy to let you try my prop. Assuming these engines have the same bolt pattern. Who's the closest to Erie, Colorado (48V)? Haven't heard from Jeff Hays during this thread, he and I are supposed to have a duel. If he wasn't such a coward and would get his rear end over here we could take care of both issues at the same time. How about it Jeff? Cliff > > Maxwell, My prop came from Sensenich at the 72" length. Even though the prop > designation is 74 '' , it came in a 72 inch length. I think we could do a > whole lot better in the TO and climb department with the 2450 RPM that Cliff > gets with his O-235/ prop combo. I do not think that those of us with the > IO-240/ Sensenich prop combo are utilizing our engines power to its full > advantage. Next question is , who is going to spend the 1000 bucks to test > my theory? Bruce > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "W Duke" > To: > Subject: Re: Props; was: Kitfox-List: O-235 Battery > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: W Duke > > > > Bruce/Cliff > > I have similar static RPM and performance with Bruce. I have an IO240 > and same prop except for Bruce's being cut down. Did you have Sensenich cut > it for you? I just ordered the prop without any special requests. > > > > > > Maxwell Duke > > S6/IO240/Phase II Flight Testing > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 06:30:51 PM PST US From: "Daniel Aller" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Carb Balance 912S --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Daniel Aller" Bill Willyard, Thank you very much for input. What do you mean,using a feeler gauge at the carb throttle stop at the [full throttle position]? Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Carb Balance 912S > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Wwillyard@aol.com > > > In a message dated 6/20/2004 10:15:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > daller1@zoominternet.net writes: > > I have a Classic IV with the dual friction throttle and no idle stops on a > 912S engine. Does anybody know how to balance the carbs with this setup so I > can stop bending my carb throttle valve levers when I pull it back to idle. > > Thank you in advance for any information. > Dan Aller > > > I have the same setup on my Classic IV with the 912UL. I have been happy > with my carb balance using a feeler gauge at the carb throttle stop at the full > throttle position. It is possible to bend components by pulling too hard > toward the closed throttle position. My solution for this was to remove the > throttle springs from the carbs as this will let you feel when you have reached the > closed throttle position before bending anything. I also like the fact that > throttle operation feels similar to my recollection of the Cessna aircraft I > have flown in the past. > > I also installed the carbs so that the throttle lever is on the outboard side > where it is easy to make adjustments. > > This is what I arrived at through trial and testing and may or may not be of > any value for your situation or preferences. > > Bill Willyard > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 07:48:19 PM PST US From: Wwillyard@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Carb Balance 912S --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Wwillyard@aol.com In a message dated 6/23/2004 9:31:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, daller1@zoominternet.net writes: Bill Willyard, Thank you very much for input. What do you mean,using a feeler gauge at the carb throttle stop at the [full throttle position]? Dan Dan, there is a fixed mechanical stop on the carb throttle plate lever for full open throttle. I advance the throttle until one the lever reaches the stop on one of the carbs. I then very slightly close the throttle and select the appropriate feeler gauge thickness to match the arbitrary gap between the throttle lever and the full throttle stop. Once I have determined the necessary feeler gauge thickness I proceed to the other carb and check the gap against the feeler gauge. Adjust the throttle cable on this carb (using the cable housing at the carb to obtain the desired gap). Cycle the throttle closed and repeat the above procedure to verify that you have mechanically synchronized the carbs at full throttle. Make additional adjustments until you have achieved an equal gap on both carbs. (All this assumes that the 912ULS carbs are constructed similar to the 912UL carbs.) I then do a similar procedure at full closed throttle between the idle speed adjustment screw and the throttle lever. You will need to back the idle speed adjustment screws off to start with. Chose any feel gauge thickness you desire and adjust the idle speed screws unit there is an equal gap on both carbs. You will now have to advance both idle speed screws equally until you have achieved the desired idle speed. The carbs are now mechanically synchronized. This procedure has worked well for me as the two EGT temps I monitor read reasonably close during flight. Bill W. ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 09:26:04 PM PST US From: "Bob Unternaehrer" Subject: Kitfox-List: Compass --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Unternaehrer" Simple question... What fluid do you fill a mag compass with Blue Skies Bob Unternaehrer shilohcom@c-magic.com ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 11:42:49 PM PST US From: Tyrohelmer@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Compass --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Tyrohelmer@aol.com It's a fluid called "Compass Spirit." It's available from any compass manufacturer, or compass repair facility.