Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:15 AM - Wing symetry (Michel Verheughe)
2. 12:43 AM - SV: SV: Flaperon control reversal (Michel Verheughe)
3. 05:14 AM - Re: Flaperson Adjustment (FREDERICKSON, JOHN L [AG/2067])
4. 07:44 AM - Re: Wing symetry (Steve Cooper)
5. 08:05 AM - Re: Wing symetry (kerrjohna@comcast.net)
6. 09:56 AM - Warp Drive Props (Mark Schindler)
7. 10:55 AM - Re: Warp Drive Props (Fox5flyer)
8. 12:08 PM - Ivoprop Research (jeff.hays@aselia.com)
9. 12:57 PM - Re: Ivoprop Research (Fox5flyer)
10. 01:41 PM - Re: Ivoprop Research the Dark side? (Aerobatics@aol.com)
11. 11:06 PM - Re: SV: Flaperon control reversal (jimshumaker)
12. 11:15 PM - Re: Wing symetry (jimshumaker)
Message 1
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Hello Kitfoxer,
After one year of fun with my Kitfox, I have learn to know her* slightly better
and I notice this:
1) When I let the stick free, the plane dips gently to the right.
2) When I stall, the left wing dips first.
Then I try to figure why and if there is a relation. My limited knowledge in aerodynamic
makes me think that, if, say my right wing has more wash-out than my
left, this could be the reason. Also, if my right wing tip has a lower AoA than
my right, it will give less lift and dip, as I fly at cruise speed, while,
when stalling, the left wing tip will do it first.
Am I right in my guessing? Or, is it that the slight right tilt at cruise speed
is due to the torque since my 582 has a left-hand prop?
I'd like to know because, before I start screwing the staying of my wings, I keep
in mind that, next winter, I intend to install a Jabiru engine that has a right-hand
prop.
Thanks in advance,
Michel
* In my mind, a beloved car, boat or plane is a she. I hope I don't offend anybody's
politically correctness! :-)
Message 2
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| Subject: | Flaperon control reversal |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
> From: Jerry Liles [wliles@bayou.com]
> under the right conditions of speed, bank, etc it is
> possible for it to stall and effectively result in roll reversal.
So, if say, the flaps are deployed 25 degrees, and the ailerons ten degrees, one
flaperon would be down 35 degrees and stall, while the other would be down 15
degrees and roll the plane in the opposite of the intended bank. Hum, it makes
sense.
Well, that will never happen with my plane that restricts the flaps to ten degrees,
and thanks God for that!
Cheers,
Michel
Message 3
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| Subject: | Flaperson Adjustment |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "FREDERICKSON, JOHN L [AG/2067]" <john.l.frederickson@monsanto.com>
My flaperon travel up is greater than the down travel. I rechecked my measurements
and they match the instructions. At this point, I've been happy with the
control I have. So, I'm going to stick with my current settings. Thanks for
the advice.
-----Original Message-----
From: jimshumaker [mailto:jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net]
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Flaperson Adjustment
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jimshumaker" <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net>
John,
The starting position for setting up the flaperons is to install a 1" block
on the leading edge of the wing at the outer end of the flaperon and tie a
flat stick to the bottom of each flaperon so that is touches the block and
the bottom on each flaperon. This is the flaps up starting position. They
deploy up and down equally on each side. The down limit (flaps) is just
above the point where they begin to restrict lateral stick travel. It is
hard to see if they go up and down equally. It is preferred that the up
travel is greater than the down travel as mentioned in a previous post.
Jim Shumaker
----- Original Message -----
From: "FREDERICKSON, JOHN L [AG/2067]" <john.l.frederickson@monsanto.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Flaperson Adjustment
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "FREDERICKSON, JOHN L [AG/2067]"
<john.l.frederickson@monsanto.com>
>
> I heard from a fellow the other day that my flaperons aren't rigged
properly (although I've been flying it for 7 years). He says that when one
flaperon is down, the other should be up a similar amount? He says that one
needed a picture along with the directions to properly rig the flaperons.
When I received my kit in 91, Denny (Skystar) hadn't completed the
directions. So, I didn't have a picture to help establish where the 11.5
degree measurement was to be taken. Has anyone heard of this? What's a
possible problem (I've turned 45 degrees in both directions without
noticeable differences)?
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Wing symetry |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper" <spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
... So, as you let go of the stick in calm straight and level flight the
bird drifts right, then you want to spoil lift on the left side. Add washout
by increasing the length of the lift strut at the trailing edge of the left
wing panel. Take no more than a half-turn OUT on the clevis at a time making
the left trailing lift strut LONGER. If there is no adjustment for washout
on the left wing panel, then you must DECREASE washout on the right wing
panel by making the right trailing edge lift strut SHORTER about a half turn
on the adjustment clevis.
In other words, you want to decrease lift on the left wing or increase lift
on the right wing.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michel Verheughe" <michel@online.no>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Wing symetry
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
>
> Hello Kitfoxer,
> After one year of fun with my Kitfox, I have learn to know her* slightly
better and I notice this:
> 1) When I let the stick free, the plane dips gently to the right.
> 2) When I stall, the left wing dips first.
>
> Then I try to figure why and if there is a relation. My limited knowledge
in aerodynamic makes me think that, if, say my right wing has more wash-out
than my left, this could be the reason. Also, if my right wing tip has a
lower AoA than my right, it will give less lift and dip, as I fly at cruise
speed, while, when stalling, the left wing tip will do it first.
>
> Am I right in my guessing? Or, is it that the slight right tilt at cruise
speed is due to the torque since my 582 has a left-hand prop?
> I'd like to know because, before I start screwing the staying of my wings,
I keep in mind that, next winter, I intend to install a Jabiru engine that
has a right-hand prop.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Michel
>
> * In my mind, a beloved car, boat or plane is a she. I hope I don't offend
anybody's politically correctness! :-)
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Wing symetry |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kerrjohna@comcast.net
steve said it right. some would ask why bother. but for many of us, since we can,
part of the enjoyment of this sport/hobby is tweaking our aircraft to make
it the most efficient within its design envelope.
i went through this process after the first year, measuring dihedral of each wing
to begin, then tweak one wing 1/2 turn then the other over numerous flights.
the end result, this morning in steady air flew 5- 10 minutes without ever touching
the stick or rudder pedals......AWSOME.
John
-------------- Original message --------------
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper"
>
> ... So, as you let go of the stick in calm straight and level flight the
> bird drifts right, then you want to spoil lift on the left side. Add washout
> by increasing the length of the lift strut at the trailing edge of the left
> wing panel. Take no more than a half-turn OUT on the clevis at a time making
> the left trailing lift strut LONGER. If there is no adjustment for washout
> on the left wing panel, then you must DECREASE washout on the right wing
> panel by making the right trailing edge lift strut SHORTER about a half turn
> on the adjustment clevis.
>
> In other words, you want to decrease lift on the left wing or increase lift
> on the right wing.
>
> Steve
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michel Verheughe"
> To:
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Wing symetry
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe
> >
> > Hello Kitfoxer,
> > After one year of fun with my Kitfox, I have learn to know her* slightly
> better and I notice this:
> > 1) When I let the stick free, the plane dips gently to the right.
> > 2) When I stall, the left wing dips first.
> >
> > Then I try to figure why and if there is a relation. My limited knowledge
> in aerodynamic makes me think that, if, say my right wing has more wash-out
> than my left, this could be the reason. Also, if my right wing tip has a
> lower AoA than my right, it will give less lift and dip, as I fly at cruise
> speed, while, when stalling, the left wing tip will do it first.
> >
> > Am I right in my guessing? Or, is it that the slight right tilt at cruise
> speed is due to the torque since my 582 has a left-hand prop?
> > I'd like to know because, before I start screwing the staying of my wings,
> I keep in mind that, next winter, I intend to install a Jabiru engine that
> has a right-hand prop.
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> >
> > Michel
> >
> > * In my mind, a beloved car, boat or plane is a she. I hope I don't offend
> anybody's politically correctness! :-)
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
steve said it right. some would ask why bother. but for many of us, since we can,
part of the enjoyment of this sport/hobby is tweaking our aircraft to make
it the most efficient within its design envelope.
i went through this processafter the first year, measuring dihedral of each wing
to begin, then tweak one wing 1/2 turn then the other over numerous flights.
the end result, this morning in steady air flew 5- 10 minutes without ever touching
the stick or rudder pedals......AWSOME.
John
-------------- Original message --------------
-- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper" <SPDRFLYR@EARTHLINK.NET>
... So, as you let go of the stick in calm straight and level flight the
bird drifts right, then you want to spoil lift on the left side. Add washout
by increasing the length of the lift strut at the trailing edge of the left
wing panel. Take no more than a half-turn OUT on the clevis at a time making
the left trailing lift strut LONGER. If there is no adjustment for washout
on the left wing panel, then you must DECREASE washout on the right wing
panel by making the right trailing edge lift strut SHORTER about a half turn
on the adjustment clevis.
In other words, you want to decrease lift on the left wing or increase lift
on the right wing.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michel Verheughe" <MICHEL@ONLINE.NO>
To: <KITFOX-LIST@MATRONICS.COM>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Wing symetry
-- Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <MICHEL@ONLINE.NO>
Hello Kitfoxer,
After one year of fun with my Kitfox, I have learn to know her* slightly
better and I notice this:
1) When I let the stick free, the plane dips gently to the right.
2) When I stall, the left wing dips first.
Then I try to figure why and if there is a relation. My limited knowledge
in aerodynamic makes me think that, if, say my right wing has more wash-out
than my left, this could be the reason. Also, if my right wing tip has a
lower AoA than my right, it will give less lift and dip, as I fly at cruise
speed, while, when stalling,
the left wing tip will do it first.
Am I right in my guessing? Or, is it that the slight right tilt at cruise
speed is due to the torque since my 582 has a left-hand prop?
I'd like to know because, before I start screwing the staying of my wings,
I keep in mind that, next winter, I intend to install a Jabiru engine that
has a right-hand prop.
Thanks in advance,
Michel
* In my mind, a beloved car, boat or plane is a she. I hope I don't offend
anybody's politically correctness! :-)
rect advertising on the Matronics Forums.
ts: http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
Message 6
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| Subject: | Warp Drive Props |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Mark Schindler <mtschindler@yahoo.com>
This was posted today on Avid Group. He has a Avid Magnum with Lycoming IO-320
His airplane has 600 hours and it's his second prop :
I should have my new prop today, I have had hairline cracks at the
root on my previous props (WarpDrive), They have without fault sent
me a new one each time no charge. They believe I do not have enough
flywheel effect from the light prop for my 170hp engine, so they
suggested I go to a 4 blade, which, I will mount today see how it
works. I have already added a harmonic balancer which was supposed
to cure the problem. They are good folks at Warp Drive although it
does take a LONG time to get a replacement.
I'm posting this just as info for those who are interested and are using Warp Drive
on direct mount.
Mark Schindler
---------------------------------
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Warp Drive Props |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
170 hp? Wow!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Schindler" <mtschindler@yahoo.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Props
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Mark Schindler <mtschindler@yahoo.com>
>
> This was posted today on Avid Group. He has a Avid Magnum with Lycoming
IO-320
> His airplane has 600 hours and it's his second prop :
>
> I should have my new prop today, I have had hairline cracks at the
> root on my previous props (WarpDrive), They have without fault sent
> me a new one each time no charge. They believe I do not have enough
> flywheel effect from the light prop for my 170hp engine, so they
> suggested I go to a 4 blade, which, I will mount today see how it
> works. I have already added a harmonic balancer which was supposed
> to cure the problem. They are good folks at Warp Drive although it
> does take a LONG time to get a replacement.
>
> I'm posting this just as info for those who are interested and are using
Warp Drive on direct mount.
>
> Mark Schindler
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Ivoprop Research |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff.hays@aselia.com" <jeff.hays@aselia.com>
I've been interested in Ivoprop's Magnum, so I started looking around the
web, and on the lists. I have come across a good bit of derogatory remarks
in the archives about Ivo, but wasn't so sure about the remarks. So being
the curious person I am I called my insurance company - "do they have any
reports about Ivo - Nope.", so I searched the ntsb website "nope nothing
bad", next I called EAA they said, there have been no current problems
that Ivo hasn't addressed. They refered me to as safety consultant who
does safety research for EAA members - The answer "Ivo does not have
any outstanding issues, and there have been no reported accident's due
to an Ivoprop failure".
The person I talked to at EAA suggested, that I don't pay much attention to
the lists, because noise on the list(s) and reality frequently differ. :)
Anyway, if anybody out there has any "real" reports about Ivo, could you
let me see them, as I am interested in this prop.
Thanks,
Jeff
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Ivoprop Research |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
That's good objective reporting Jeff.
Thanks for sharing.
Darrel
----- Original Message -----
From: <jeff.hays@aselia.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Ivoprop Research
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff.hays@aselia.com"
<jeff.hays@aselia.com>
>
>
> I've been interested in Ivoprop's Magnum, so I started looking around the
> web, and on the lists. I have come across a good bit of derogatory remarks
> in the archives about Ivo, but wasn't so sure about the remarks. So being
> the curious person I am I called my insurance company - "do they have any
> reports about Ivo - Nope.", so I searched the ntsb website "nope nothing
> bad", next I called EAA they said, there have been no current problems
> that Ivo hasn't addressed. They refered me to as safety consultant who
> does safety research for EAA members - The answer "Ivo does not have
> any outstanding issues, and there have been no reported accident's due
> to an Ivoprop failure".
>
> The person I talked to at EAA suggested, that I don't pay much attention
to
> the lists, because noise on the list(s) and reality frequently differ. :)
>
> Anyway, if anybody out there has any "real" reports about Ivo, could you
> let me see them, as I am interested in this prop.
>
> Thanks,
> Jeff
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Ivoprop Research the Dark side? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com
In a message dated 7/2/2004 2:58:11 PM Central Standard Time,
morid@northland.lib.mi.us writes:
> >I've been interested in Ivoprop's Magnum, so I started looking around the
> >web, and on the lists. I have come across a good bit of derogatory remarks
> >in the archives about Ivo, but wasn't so sure about the remarks. So being
> >the curious person I am I called my insurance company - "do they have any
> >reports about Ivo - Nope.", so I searched the ntsb website "nope nothing
> >bad", next I called EAA they said, there have been no current problems
> >that Ivo hasn't addressed. They refered me to as safety consultant who
> >does safety research for EAA members - The answer "Ivo does not have
> >any outstanding issues, and there have been no reported accident's due
> >to an Ivoprop failure".
> >
> >The person I talked to at EAA suggested, that I don't pay much attention
> to
> >the lists, because noise on the list(s) and reality frequently differ. :)
> >
> >Anyway, if anybody out there has any "real" reports about Ivo, could you
> >let me see them, as I am interested in this prop.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Jeff
Very Interesting report....
Like I mentioned B4, internet is a great tool, but some times missused by a
few bent on damaging.
I now use an IVO, and based on one happy customer, I would happily recommend.
I did have a wooden 3 blade and now I take off about the same distance, but
seem to climb a bit better and cruise a lot better. Not to mention, a lot
more resistant to nicks and such.
My IVO isnt called a Magnum, it is for a Rotax 582 on a KF 2
good luck!
Dave
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Flaperon control reversal |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jimshumaker" <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net>
Michel
I did not get the text from Jerry Liles, but what you said in your sumation
does not follow my experiance. I am not saying it could not happen but....
I have flown with the flaps deployed to the point that the stick could not
be moved port to starboard. While I was not testing for all possible stick
positions at all all speeds, I did not notice the flaps stall or any control
reversal at intermediate positions, so long as the wing was not stall. It
is the wing that typically stalls during stall spin control reversal or
spinning over the top. The spin over the top is a flight characteristic
that happens to most planes regardless of the flap setting.
Lateral stick restriction is specific to the rigging of the model III. If
the flaperons are set to allow the wings to fold then the flap handle must
lift the flaperons a bit when they are folded. They must be moved beyond
the point where lateral restriction occurs. So the only usable position of
the flap handle is about the first 3 or 4 inches from full forward (flaps
up). The rest of the handle throw can restrict lateral motion and is not
advantages to use in flight in most situations.
Just wanted to be sure you understood that control reversal as you described
in your summary is typical for all aircraft when they stall, with or without
flaps.
Jim Shumaker
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michel Verheughe" <michel@online.no>
Subject: SV: SV: Kitfox-List: Flaperon control reversal
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
>
> > From: Jerry Liles [wliles@bayou.com]
> > under the right conditions of speed, bank, etc it is
> > possible for it to stall and effectively result in roll reversal.
>
> So, if say, the flaps are deployed 25 degrees, and the ailerons ten
degrees, one flaperon would be down 35 degrees and stall, while the other
would be down 15 degrees and roll the plane in the opposite of the intended
bank. Hum, it makes sense.
> Well, that will never happen with my plane that restricts the flaps to ten
degrees, and thanks God for that!
>
> Cheers,
> Michel
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Wing symetry |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jimshumaker" <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net>
Michel
No it is not the tremendous torque of that 582. It is either a wing out of
rig or a flaperon asymmetry. If you adjust the wing as Steve Cooper
suggested but have questionable improvement then it can be fixed with an
aileron trim tab. Aileron trim tabs are a common method of trimming out
slight wing asymmetries. especially in aircraft that can not adjust the
wing incidence as easily as your kitfox.
Jim Shumaker
Have we not discussed this before?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michel Verheughe" <michel@online.no>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Wing symetry
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
>
> Hello Kitfoxer,
> After one year of fun with my Kitfox, I have learn to know her* slightly
better and I notice this:
> 1) When I let the stick free, the plane dips gently to the right.
> 2) When I stall, the left wing dips first.
>
> Then I try to figure why and if there is a relation. My limited knowledge
in aerodynamic makes me think that, if, say my right wing has more wash-out
than my left, this could be the reason. Also, if my right wing tip has a
lower AoA than my right, it will give less lift and dip, as I fly at cruise
speed, while, when stalling, the left wing tip will do it first.
>
> Am I right in my guessing? Or, is it that the slight right tilt at cruise
speed is due to the torque since my 582 has a left-hand prop?
> I'd like to know because, before I start screwing the staying of my wings,
I keep in mind that, next winter, I intend to install a Jabiru engine that
has a right-hand prop.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Michel
>
> * In my mind, a beloved car, boat or plane is a she. I hope I don't offend
anybody's politically correctness! :-)
>
>
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