---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 07/02/04: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:15 AM - Wing symetry (Michel Verheughe) 2. 12:43 AM - SV: SV: Flaperon control reversal (Michel Verheughe) 3. 05:14 AM - Re: Flaperson Adjustment (FREDERICKSON, JOHN L [AG/2067]) 4. 07:44 AM - Re: Wing symetry (Steve Cooper) 5. 08:05 AM - Re: Wing symetry (kerrjohna@comcast.net) 6. 09:56 AM - Warp Drive Props (Mark Schindler) 7. 10:55 AM - Re: Warp Drive Props (Fox5flyer) 8. 12:08 PM - Ivoprop Research (jeff.hays@aselia.com) 9. 12:57 PM - Re: Ivoprop Research (Fox5flyer) 10. 01:41 PM - Re: Ivoprop Research the Dark side? (Aerobatics@aol.com) 11. 11:06 PM - Re: SV: Flaperon control reversal (jimshumaker) 12. 11:15 PM - Re: Wing symetry (jimshumaker) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:15:12 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Kitfox-List: Wing symetry --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe Hello Kitfoxer, After one year of fun with my Kitfox, I have learn to know her* slightly better and I notice this: 1) When I let the stick free, the plane dips gently to the right. 2) When I stall, the left wing dips first. Then I try to figure why and if there is a relation. My limited knowledge in aerodynamic makes me think that, if, say my right wing has more wash-out than my left, this could be the reason. Also, if my right wing tip has a lower AoA than my right, it will give less lift and dip, as I fly at cruise speed, while, when stalling, the left wing tip will do it first. Am I right in my guessing? Or, is it that the slight right tilt at cruise speed is due to the torque since my 582 has a left-hand prop? I'd like to know because, before I start screwing the staying of my wings, I keep in mind that, next winter, I intend to install a Jabiru engine that has a right-hand prop. Thanks in advance, Michel * In my mind, a beloved car, boat or plane is a she. I hope I don't offend anybody's politically correctness! :-) ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:43:13 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: SV: SV: Kitfox-List: Flaperon control reversal --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe > From: Jerry Liles [wliles@bayou.com] > under the right conditions of speed, bank, etc it is > possible for it to stall and effectively result in roll reversal. So, if say, the flaps are deployed 25 degrees, and the ailerons ten degrees, one flaperon would be down 35 degrees and stall, while the other would be down 15 degrees and roll the plane in the opposite of the intended bank. Hum, it makes sense. Well, that will never happen with my plane that restricts the flaps to ten degrees, and thanks God for that! Cheers, Michel ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:14:12 AM PST US From: "FREDERICKSON, JOHN L [AG/2067]" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Flaperson Adjustment --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "FREDERICKSON, JOHN L [AG/2067]" My flaperon travel up is greater than the down travel. I rechecked my measurements and they match the instructions. At this point, I've been happy with the control I have. So, I'm going to stick with my current settings. Thanks for the advice. -----Original Message----- From: jimshumaker [mailto:jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net] Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Flaperson Adjustment --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jimshumaker" John, The starting position for setting up the flaperons is to install a 1" block on the leading edge of the wing at the outer end of the flaperon and tie a flat stick to the bottom of each flaperon so that is touches the block and the bottom on each flaperon. This is the flaps up starting position. They deploy up and down equally on each side. The down limit (flaps) is just above the point where they begin to restrict lateral stick travel. It is hard to see if they go up and down equally. It is preferred that the up travel is greater than the down travel as mentioned in a previous post. Jim Shumaker ----- Original Message ----- From: "FREDERICKSON, JOHN L [AG/2067]" Subject: Kitfox-List: Flaperson Adjustment > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "FREDERICKSON, JOHN L [AG/2067]" > > I heard from a fellow the other day that my flaperons aren't rigged properly (although I've been flying it for 7 years). He says that when one flaperon is down, the other should be up a similar amount? He says that one needed a picture along with the directions to properly rig the flaperons. When I received my kit in 91, Denny (Skystar) hadn't completed the directions. So, I didn't have a picture to help establish where the 11.5 degree measurement was to be taken. Has anyone heard of this? What's a possible problem (I've turned 45 degrees in both directions without noticeable differences)? > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:44:20 AM PST US From: "Steve Cooper" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Wing symetry --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper" ... So, as you let go of the stick in calm straight and level flight the bird drifts right, then you want to spoil lift on the left side. Add washout by increasing the length of the lift strut at the trailing edge of the left wing panel. Take no more than a half-turn OUT on the clevis at a time making the left trailing lift strut LONGER. If there is no adjustment for washout on the left wing panel, then you must DECREASE washout on the right wing panel by making the right trailing edge lift strut SHORTER about a half turn on the adjustment clevis. In other words, you want to decrease lift on the left wing or increase lift on the right wing. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Verheughe" Subject: Kitfox-List: Wing symetry > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe > > Hello Kitfoxer, > After one year of fun with my Kitfox, I have learn to know her* slightly better and I notice this: > 1) When I let the stick free, the plane dips gently to the right. > 2) When I stall, the left wing dips first. > > Then I try to figure why and if there is a relation. My limited knowledge in aerodynamic makes me think that, if, say my right wing has more wash-out than my left, this could be the reason. Also, if my right wing tip has a lower AoA than my right, it will give less lift and dip, as I fly at cruise speed, while, when stalling, the left wing tip will do it first. > > Am I right in my guessing? Or, is it that the slight right tilt at cruise speed is due to the torque since my 582 has a left-hand prop? > I'd like to know because, before I start screwing the staying of my wings, I keep in mind that, next winter, I intend to install a Jabiru engine that has a right-hand prop. > > Thanks in advance, > > Michel > > * In my mind, a beloved car, boat or plane is a she. I hope I don't offend anybody's politically correctness! :-) > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:05:24 AM PST US From: kerrjohna@comcast.net Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Wing symetry --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kerrjohna@comcast.net steve said it right. some would ask why bother. but for many of us, since we can, part of the enjoyment of this sport/hobby is tweaking our aircraft to make it the most efficient within its design envelope. i went through this process after the first year, measuring dihedral of each wing to begin, then tweak one wing 1/2 turn then the other over numerous flights. the end result, this morning in steady air flew 5- 10 minutes without ever touching the stick or rudder pedals......AWSOME. John -------------- Original message -------------- > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper" > > ... So, as you let go of the stick in calm straight and level flight the > bird drifts right, then you want to spoil lift on the left side. Add washout > by increasing the length of the lift strut at the trailing edge of the left > wing panel. Take no more than a half-turn OUT on the clevis at a time making > the left trailing lift strut LONGER. If there is no adjustment for washout > on the left wing panel, then you must DECREASE washout on the right wing > panel by making the right trailing edge lift strut SHORTER about a half turn > on the adjustment clevis. > > In other words, you want to decrease lift on the left wing or increase lift > on the right wing. > > Steve > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michel Verheughe" > To: > Subject: Kitfox-List: Wing symetry > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe > > > > Hello Kitfoxer, > > After one year of fun with my Kitfox, I have learn to know her* slightly > better and I notice this: > > 1) When I let the stick free, the plane dips gently to the right. > > 2) When I stall, the left wing dips first. > > > > Then I try to figure why and if there is a relation. My limited knowledge > in aerodynamic makes me think that, if, say my right wing has more wash-out > than my left, this could be the reason. Also, if my right wing tip has a > lower AoA than my right, it will give less lift and dip, as I fly at cruise > speed, while, when stalling, the left wing tip will do it first. > > > > Am I right in my guessing? Or, is it that the slight right tilt at cruise > speed is due to the torque since my 582 has a left-hand prop? > > I'd like to know because, before I start screwing the staying of my wings, > I keep in mind that, next winter, I intend to install a Jabiru engine that > has a right-hand prop. > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > Michel > > > > * In my mind, a beloved car, boat or plane is a she. I hope I don't offend > anybody's politically correctness! :-) > > > > > > > > > > steve said it right. some would ask why bother. but for many of us, since we can, part of the enjoyment of this sport/hobby is tweaking our aircraft to make it the most efficient within its design envelope. i went through this processafter the first year, measuring dihedral of each wing to begin, then tweak one wing 1/2 turn then the other over numerous flights. the end result, this morning in steady air flew 5- 10 minutes without ever touching the stick or rudder pedals......AWSOME. John -------------- Original message -------------- -- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper" ... So, as you let go of the stick in calm straight and level flight the bird drifts right, then you want to spoil lift on the left side. Add washout by increasing the length of the lift strut at the trailing edge of the left wing panel. Take no more than a half-turn OUT on the clevis at a time making the left trailing lift strut LONGER. If there is no adjustment for washout on the left wing panel, then you must DECREASE washout on the right wing panel by making the right trailing edge lift strut SHORTER about a half turn on the adjustment clevis. In other words, you want to decrease lift on the left wing or increase lift on the right wing. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Verheughe" To: Subject: Kitfox-List: Wing symetry -- Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe Hello Kitfoxer, After one year of fun with my Kitfox, I have learn to know her* slightly better and I notice this: 1) When I let the stick free, the plane dips gently to the right. 2) When I stall, the left wing dips first. Then I try to figure why and if there is a relation. My limited knowledge in aerodynamic makes me think that, if, say my right wing has more wash-out than my left, this could be the reason. Also, if my right wing tip has a lower AoA than my right, it will give less lift and dip, as I fly at cruise speed, while, when stalling, the left wing tip will do it first. Am I right in my guessing? Or, is it that the slight right tilt at cruise speed is due to the torque since my 582 has a left-hand prop? I'd like to know because, before I start screwing the staying of my wings, I keep in mind that, next winter, I intend to install a Jabiru engine that has a right-hand prop. Thanks in advance, Michel * In my mind, a beloved car, boat or plane is a she. I hope I don't offend anybody's politically correctness! :-) rect advertising on the Matronics Forums. ts: http://www.matronics.com/emaillists ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:56:40 AM PST US From: Mark Schindler Subject: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Props --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Mark Schindler This was posted today on Avid Group. He has a Avid Magnum with Lycoming IO-320 His airplane has 600 hours and it's his second prop : I should have my new prop today, I have had hairline cracks at the root on my previous props (WarpDrive), They have without fault sent me a new one each time no charge. They believe I do not have enough flywheel effect from the light prop for my 170hp engine, so they suggested I go to a 4 blade, which, I will mount today see how it works. I have already added a harmonic balancer which was supposed to cure the problem. They are good folks at Warp Drive although it does take a LONG time to get a replacement. I'm posting this just as info for those who are interested and are using Warp Drive on direct mount. Mark Schindler --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:55:57 AM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Props --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" 170 hp? Wow! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Schindler" Subject: Kitfox-List: Warp Drive Props > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Mark Schindler > > This was posted today on Avid Group. He has a Avid Magnum with Lycoming IO-320 > His airplane has 600 hours and it's his second prop : > > I should have my new prop today, I have had hairline cracks at the > root on my previous props (WarpDrive), They have without fault sent > me a new one each time no charge. They believe I do not have enough > flywheel effect from the light prop for my 170hp engine, so they > suggested I go to a 4 blade, which, I will mount today see how it > works. I have already added a harmonic balancer which was supposed > to cure the problem. They are good folks at Warp Drive although it > does take a LONG time to get a replacement. > > I'm posting this just as info for those who are interested and are using Warp Drive on direct mount. > > Mark Schindler > > > --------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:08:33 PM PST US From: "jeff.hays@aselia.com" Subject: Kitfox-List: Ivoprop Research --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff.hays@aselia.com" I've been interested in Ivoprop's Magnum, so I started looking around the web, and on the lists. I have come across a good bit of derogatory remarks in the archives about Ivo, but wasn't so sure about the remarks. So being the curious person I am I called my insurance company - "do they have any reports about Ivo - Nope.", so I searched the ntsb website "nope nothing bad", next I called EAA they said, there have been no current problems that Ivo hasn't addressed. They refered me to as safety consultant who does safety research for EAA members - The answer "Ivo does not have any outstanding issues, and there have been no reported accident's due to an Ivoprop failure". The person I talked to at EAA suggested, that I don't pay much attention to the lists, because noise on the list(s) and reality frequently differ. :) Anyway, if anybody out there has any "real" reports about Ivo, could you let me see them, as I am interested in this prop. Thanks, Jeff ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:57:25 PM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ivoprop Research --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" That's good objective reporting Jeff. Thanks for sharing. Darrel ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Kitfox-List: Ivoprop Research > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff.hays@aselia.com" > > > I've been interested in Ivoprop's Magnum, so I started looking around the > web, and on the lists. I have come across a good bit of derogatory remarks > in the archives about Ivo, but wasn't so sure about the remarks. So being > the curious person I am I called my insurance company - "do they have any > reports about Ivo - Nope.", so I searched the ntsb website "nope nothing > bad", next I called EAA they said, there have been no current problems > that Ivo hasn't addressed. They refered me to as safety consultant who > does safety research for EAA members - The answer "Ivo does not have > any outstanding issues, and there have been no reported accident's due > to an Ivoprop failure". > > The person I talked to at EAA suggested, that I don't pay much attention to > the lists, because noise on the list(s) and reality frequently differ. :) > > Anyway, if anybody out there has any "real" reports about Ivo, could you > let me see them, as I am interested in this prop. > > Thanks, > Jeff > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:41:22 PM PST US From: Aerobatics@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ivoprop Research the Dark side? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com In a message dated 7/2/2004 2:58:11 PM Central Standard Time, morid@northland.lib.mi.us writes: > >I've been interested in Ivoprop's Magnum, so I started looking around the > >web, and on the lists. I have come across a good bit of derogatory remarks > >in the archives about Ivo, but wasn't so sure about the remarks. So being > >the curious person I am I called my insurance company - "do they have any > >reports about Ivo - Nope.", so I searched the ntsb website "nope nothing > >bad", next I called EAA they said, there have been no current problems > >that Ivo hasn't addressed. They refered me to as safety consultant who > >does safety research for EAA members - The answer "Ivo does not have > >any outstanding issues, and there have been no reported accident's due > >to an Ivoprop failure". > > > >The person I talked to at EAA suggested, that I don't pay much attention > to > >the lists, because noise on the list(s) and reality frequently differ. :) > > > >Anyway, if anybody out there has any "real" reports about Ivo, could you > >let me see them, as I am interested in this prop. > > > >Thanks, > >Jeff Very Interesting report.... Like I mentioned B4, internet is a great tool, but some times missused by a few bent on damaging. I now use an IVO, and based on one happy customer, I would happily recommend. I did have a wooden 3 blade and now I take off about the same distance, but seem to climb a bit better and cruise a lot better. Not to mention, a lot more resistant to nicks and such. My IVO isnt called a Magnum, it is for a Rotax 582 on a KF 2 good luck! Dave ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:06:37 PM PST US From: "jimshumaker" Subject: Re: SV: Kitfox-List: Flaperon control reversal --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jimshumaker" Michel I did not get the text from Jerry Liles, but what you said in your sumation does not follow my experiance. I am not saying it could not happen but.... I have flown with the flaps deployed to the point that the stick could not be moved port to starboard. While I was not testing for all possible stick positions at all all speeds, I did not notice the flaps stall or any control reversal at intermediate positions, so long as the wing was not stall. It is the wing that typically stalls during stall spin control reversal or spinning over the top. The spin over the top is a flight characteristic that happens to most planes regardless of the flap setting. Lateral stick restriction is specific to the rigging of the model III. If the flaperons are set to allow the wings to fold then the flap handle must lift the flaperons a bit when they are folded. They must be moved beyond the point where lateral restriction occurs. So the only usable position of the flap handle is about the first 3 or 4 inches from full forward (flaps up). The rest of the handle throw can restrict lateral motion and is not advantages to use in flight in most situations. Just wanted to be sure you understood that control reversal as you described in your summary is typical for all aircraft when they stall, with or without flaps. Jim Shumaker ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Verheughe" Subject: SV: SV: Kitfox-List: Flaperon control reversal > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe > > > From: Jerry Liles [wliles@bayou.com] > > under the right conditions of speed, bank, etc it is > > possible for it to stall and effectively result in roll reversal. > > So, if say, the flaps are deployed 25 degrees, and the ailerons ten degrees, one flaperon would be down 35 degrees and stall, while the other would be down 15 degrees and roll the plane in the opposite of the intended bank. Hum, it makes sense. > Well, that will never happen with my plane that restricts the flaps to ten degrees, and thanks God for that! > > Cheers, > Michel > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:15:31 PM PST US From: "jimshumaker" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Wing symetry --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jimshumaker" Michel No it is not the tremendous torque of that 582. It is either a wing out of rig or a flaperon asymmetry. If you adjust the wing as Steve Cooper suggested but have questionable improvement then it can be fixed with an aileron trim tab. Aileron trim tabs are a common method of trimming out slight wing asymmetries. especially in aircraft that can not adjust the wing incidence as easily as your kitfox. Jim Shumaker Have we not discussed this before? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Verheughe" Subject: Kitfox-List: Wing symetry > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe > > Hello Kitfoxer, > After one year of fun with my Kitfox, I have learn to know her* slightly better and I notice this: > 1) When I let the stick free, the plane dips gently to the right. > 2) When I stall, the left wing dips first. > > Then I try to figure why and if there is a relation. My limited knowledge in aerodynamic makes me think that, if, say my right wing has more wash-out than my left, this could be the reason. Also, if my right wing tip has a lower AoA than my right, it will give less lift and dip, as I fly at cruise speed, while, when stalling, the left wing tip will do it first. > > Am I right in my guessing? Or, is it that the slight right tilt at cruise speed is due to the torque since my 582 has a left-hand prop? > I'd like to know because, before I start screwing the staying of my wings, I keep in mind that, next winter, I intend to install a Jabiru engine that has a right-hand prop. > > Thanks in advance, > > Michel > > * In my mind, a beloved car, boat or plane is a she. I hope I don't offend anybody's politically correctness! :-) > >