Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:01 AM - Re: Broken rudder hinge (Torgeir Mortensen)
2. 04:58 AM - Re: My fuel tank spring loaded drain valve continues to drip (AlbertaIV@aol.com)
3. 06:08 AM - Re: Broken rudder hinge (Jerry Liles)
4. 07:14 AM - Re: Bulging header tank (Lowell Fitt)
5. 07:15 AM - Re: Broken rudder hinge (Floran Higgins)
6. 07:20 AM - Re: Broken rudder hinge (Lowell Fitt)
7. 07:48 AM - Re: Broken rudder hinge (Torgeir Mortensen)
8. 09:50 AM - Re: My fuel tank spring loaded drain valve continues to drip (jimshumaker)
9. 09:52 AM - Re: Bulging header tank (jimshumaker)
10. 10:05 AM - rudder hinge (Shane Sather)
11. 10:41 AM - Re: rudder hinge (AlbertaIV@aol.com)
12. 10:46 AM - Re: My fuel tank spring loaded drain valve continues to drip (AlbertaIV@aol.com)
13. 10:47 AM - John Mcbean (AlbertaIV@aol.com)
14. 11:10 AM - Re: OT: News from the north (Torgeir Mortensen)
15. 11:15 AM - Re: Flaperon Balance (Torgeir Mortensen)
16. 11:28 AM - Re: Broken rudder hinge (Floran Higgins)
17. 11:39 AM - Flapperon friction. (Torgeir Mortensen)
18. 12:05 PM - Re: Broken rudder hinge (Torgeir Mortensen)
19. 01:02 PM - Re: OT: News from the north (Michel Verheughe)
20. 01:37 PM - Re: rudder hinge (Shane Sather)
21. 03:39 PM - Re: Flapperon friction. (kurt schrader)
22. 03:51 PM - Re: Broken rudder hinge (kurt schrader)
23. 04:04 PM - Re: Bulging header tank (kurt schrader)
24. 05:20 PM - Re: Flapperon friction. (Ceashman@aol.com)
25. 06:03 PM - Re: Flapperon friction. (Lowell Fitt)
26. 06:12 PM - Re: rudder hinge (Fox5flyer)
27. 06:12 PM - Re: Flapperon friction. (jimshumaker)
28. 06:20 PM - Re: My fuel tank spring loaded drain valve continues to drip (jimshumaker)
29. 06:24 PM - Re: Flapperon friction. (AlbertaIV@aol.com)
30. 06:28 PM - Re: Flapperon friction. (AlbertaIV@aol.com)
31. 06:37 PM - Re: rudder hinge (AlbertaIV@aol.com)
32. 07:14 PM - Re: Flapperon friction. (jdmcbean)
33. 07:47 PM - PocketFMS (Clem Nichols)
34. 09:56 PM - Re: Flapperon friction. (kurt schrader)
35. 10:27 PM - Re: Broken rudder hinge (kurt schrader)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Broken rudder hinge |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen <torgemor@online.no>
Hi Floran,
This is most interesting! Do you really have four threaded rod ends as
rudder bearings??
Let's have a guess, it's the two middle (or the two lower) that's shared
off ?? Right??
OK., let's jump into it.. Remember the rudder pedal reinforcement. I'll
think the problem now is "transferred" to the rudder, especially if the
rudder bearing "really" is threaded rod ends.
IMO.
Torgeir.
(Just back from France).
On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 14:50:03 -0600, Floran Higgins <CliffH@outdrs.net>
wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Floran Higgins" <CliffH@outdrs.net>
>
> I have a 1993 Model 4 Speedster. It has four rod end bearings threaded
> into the vertical fin that the rudder is hinged to. During preflight
> this morning I discovered that two of the four rod end bearings had
> sheared off at the beginning of the threads.
> Total time on the aircraft is 891 hrs.
> I don't have any idea why these rod end bearings sheared off. I did not
> build this airplane, but I have flown it about 500 hrs since I bought
> it. It has never been abused since I have had it.
> It might be that the shaking the airframe gets when the 912S engine is
> started is causing the problem.
> This might be something other people might want to check.
> Floran H.
>
>
--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: My fuel tank spring loaded drain valve continues to drip |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
In a message dated 8/14/04 11:29:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net writes:
> Because water in the wing tanks may be below the level of the wing drain
> tube during preflight. After take off the water can then slosh into the
> header tank and then into the fuel line. I just drained my wing tanks
> yesterday and was surprized to find this. I drained out a full sample tube
> of fuel and have not yet emptied the wing tank.
>
> Jim Shumaker
>
Jim,
I'm reading this with interest because there is always something new to
learn about any subject but, I can't make out what you are trying to say. Can
you reword the above.
Sorry,
Don Smythe
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Broken rudder hinge |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jerry Liles <wliles@bayou.com>
I think using rod ends for rudder bearings was a bad idea to begin
with. If the threads are exposed, and they probably are, it results in
placing bending loads on the threads of the shaft. Threads are stress
risers no matter how they are formed and should never be subjected to
side or bending loads. Throw in a good dose of engine vibration, a bit
of misalignment stress and something is likely to break.
My 2 cents.
Jerry Liles
Torgeir Mortensen wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen <torgemor@online.no>
>
>Hi Floran,
>
>This is most interesting! Do you really have four threaded rod ends as
>rudder bearings??
>
>Let's have a guess, it's the two middle (or the two lower) that's shared
>off ?? Right??
>
>OK., let's jump into it.. Remember the rudder pedal reinforcement. I'll
>think the problem now is "transferred" to the rudder, especially if the
>rudder bearing "really" is threaded rod ends.
>
>
>IMO.
>
>Torgeir.
>
>(Just back from France).
>
>
>On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 14:50:03 -0600, Floran Higgins <CliffH@outdrs.net>
>wrote:
>
>
>
>>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Floran Higgins" <CliffH@outdrs.net>
>>
>> I have a 1993 Model 4 Speedster. It has four rod end bearings threaded
>>into the vertical fin that the rudder is hinged to. During preflight
>>this morning I discovered that two of the four rod end bearings had
>>sheared off at the beginning of the threads.
>>Total time on the aircraft is 891 hrs.
>>I don't have any idea why these rod end bearings sheared off. I did not
>>build this airplane, but I have flown it about 500 hrs since I bought
>>it. It has never been abused since I have had it.
>>It might be that the shaking the airframe gets when the 912S engine is
>>started is causing the problem.
>>This might be something other people might want to check.
>>Floran H.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Bulging header tank |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
Kurt, I am certainly not an engineer, but the design troubles me a little
bit - especially the clunk. It would seem that any movement in the tank,
and I would think it would be minimal at the worst would tend to work the
welds. For example of you were to pressurize the tank all the welds would
be acting sort of hinge-like and possibly work hardening. The good part is
that I doubt there would be a catastrophic failure, but rather leaks
developing in time.
Just a thought.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "kurt schrader" <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Bulging header tank
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
<smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> I might not be describing the joints properly as
> "tabs". Only the tabs are welded. If I cut them off,
> the tank would fall apart.
>
> I origionally had 1/2" overlap as part of the tank,
> like Tom's appeared to me. This welder wanted all the
> overlap on the outside of the tank's main surfaces.
> Now the top and bottom extend past the tank joint by
> 1/2" vertically. The sides extend aft past the back
> by 1/2" too. These extensions or tabs are what he
> actually welded. I don't like it as much, but he is
> considered the best thin skin welder locally.
>
> Overall, it might have cost me 1 qt and I lost another
> qt of capacity due to working around my seatbelt
> attachment mod and header tank sight gauge mod, which
> narrowed the sides.
>
> The tabs do seem to stiffen the tank a little,
> especially the bottom. But in keeping with the title
> "buldging header tank", my tank gives a good clunk as
> it oil-cans when the tank is drained or filled about
> 1/2 capacity. Secondary low fuel indicator? :-)
>
> Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
>
> --- Bob Unternaehrer <shilohcom@c-magic.com> wrote:
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob
> > Unternaehrer" <shilohcom@c-magic.com>
> >
> > You could have made the tanks the size you wanted to
> > and cut them off after welding.
>
> Bob U.
>
>
> __________________________________
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Broken rudder hinge |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Floran Higgins" <CliffH@outdrs.net>
The top one and the third one down are the ones that sheared. It wasn't two
in a row.
Floran H.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Torgeir Mortensen" <torgemor@online.no>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Broken rudder hinge
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen <torgemor@online.no>
>
> Hi Floran,
>
> This is most interesting! Do you really have four threaded rod ends as
> rudder bearings??
>
> Let's have a guess, it's the two middle (or the two lower) that's shared
> off ?? Right??
>
> OK., let's jump into it.. Remember the rudder pedal reinforcement. I'll
> think the problem now is "transferred" to the rudder, especially if the
> rudder bearing "really" is threaded rod ends.
>
>
> IMO.
>
> Torgeir.
>
> (Just back from France).
>
>
> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 14:50:03 -0600, Floran Higgins <CliffH@outdrs.net>
> wrote:
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Floran Higgins" <CliffH@outdrs.net>
> >
> > I have a 1993 Model 4 Speedster. It has four rod end bearings threaded
> > into the vertical fin that the rudder is hinged to. During preflight
> > this morning I discovered that two of the four rod end bearings had
> > sheared off at the beginning of the threads.
> > Total time on the aircraft is 891 hrs.
> > I don't have any idea why these rod end bearings sheared off. I did not
> > build this airplane, but I have flown it about 500 hrs since I bought
> > it. It has never been abused since I have had it.
> > It might be that the shaking the airframe gets when the 912S engine is
> > started is causing the problem.
> > This might be something other people might want to check.
> > Floran H.
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Broken rudder hinge |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
Don, I just checked mine - March 1993 kit delivery. I have three 1/4" rod
ends for bearings. Sometime during this period, the change was made from
four to three or vice versa. I seem to recall that the lite squared had
three - not sure of the size.
I do check them at preflight.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: <AlbertaIV@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Broken rudder hinge
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 8/14/04 7:43:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> CliffH@outdrs.net writes:
>
>
> > If I was just building the airplane, I would put in larger threaded
pipes
> > into the vertical fin and replace these 3/16 rod end bearings with 1/4
in
> > ones.
> >
>
> I have a 95 (September) Classic IV. I will check but think the rudder rod
> end threads are already 1/4". Am I wrong? The only place there are 3/16"
rod
> end threads are in the horiz stabilizer support rods (another problem
area).
>
> Don Smythe
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Broken rudder hinge |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen <torgemor@online.no>
Kind of strange, really, wonder if they was properly aligned?
Of course, vibration might also play a role here, however, the "old" setup
is much stronger than four 3/16" rod ends. Do you have some pictures of
this for us?
My friends mod 4 (1050) do not vibrate much in the rudder area during
start up, but do vibrate a lot other places. Yup, the engine is 912S.
After the "new" choke "start procedure", much of the "rattle" is gone.
However, breaking -esp. in a turn, will put lots of bending force on the
rod end bearing close to the rudder horn (the two arms connected to the
rudder wire).
Torgeir
On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 08:02:14 -0600, Floran Higgins <CliffH@outdrs.net>
wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Floran Higgins" <CliffH@outdrs.net>
>
> The top one and the third one down are the ones that sheared. It wasn't
> two
> in a row.
> Floran H.
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: My fuel tank spring loaded drain valve continues to drip |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jimshumaker" <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net>
Sure can Don,
I drained my wing tanks the other day via my low point drain which is a
gascolator in the engine compartment. The header tank did not drain
completly but the drain lines from both tanks were empty. I proved this by
aplying light air pressure in a vent tube. The air vented out the other
wing tank. I proved this by capping the other vent and applying pressure.
this time the pressure built and fuel was forced out the header tank via the
gascolator. I then rocked the wings and repeated each test. I then opened
a wing drain and filled a sample tube with fuel. That was about 3 ounces.
It was time to go home so I have not drained them out completely. So not
sure how much is in there. Will let you know the amount after I finish
draining. These are 1992 vintage 5 1/2 gallon aluminum wing tanks in a
model III.
Jim Shumaker
----- Original Message -----
From: <AlbertaIV@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: My fuel tank spring loaded drain valve continues
to drip
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 8/14/04 11:29:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net writes:
>
>
> > Because water in the wing tanks may be below the level of the wing drain
> > tube during preflight. After take off the water can then slosh into the
> > header tank and then into the fuel line. I just drained my wing tanks
> > yesterday and was surprized to find this. I drained out a full sample
tube
> > of fuel and have not yet emptied the wing tank.
> >
> > Jim Shumaker
> >
>
> Jim,
> I'm reading this with interest because there is always something new
to
> learn about any subject but, I can't make out what you are trying to say.
Can
> you reword the above.
>
> Sorry,
> Don Smythe
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Bulging header tank |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jimshumaker" <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net>
Lowell is right.
It is takes very few flexures to fatigue aluminum.
Jim Shumaker
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Bulging header tank
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
>
> Kurt, I am certainly not an engineer, but the design troubles me a little
> bit - especially the clunk. It would seem that any movement in the tank,
> and I would think it would be minimal at the worst would tend to work the
> welds. For example of you were to pressurize the tank all the welds would
> be acting sort of hinge-like and possibly work hardening. The good part is
> that I doubt there would be a catastrophic failure, but rather leaks
> developing in time.
>
> Just a thought.
>
> Lowell
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "kurt schrader" <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Bulging header tank
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
> <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
> >
> > Hi Bob,
> >
> > I might not be describing the joints properly as
> > "tabs". Only the tabs are welded. If I cut them off,
> > the tank would fall apart.
> >
> > I origionally had 1/2" overlap as part of the tank,
> > like Tom's appeared to me. This welder wanted all the
> > overlap on the outside of the tank's main surfaces.
> > Now the top and bottom extend past the tank joint by
> > 1/2" vertically. The sides extend aft past the back
> > by 1/2" too. These extensions or tabs are what he
> > actually welded. I don't like it as much, but he is
> > considered the best thin skin welder locally.
> >
> > Overall, it might have cost me 1 qt and I lost another
> > qt of capacity due to working around my seatbelt
> > attachment mod and header tank sight gauge mod, which
> > narrowed the sides.
> >
> > The tabs do seem to stiffen the tank a little,
> > especially the bottom. But in keeping with the title
> > "buldging header tank", my tank gives a good clunk as
> > it oil-cans when the tank is drained or filled about
> > 1/2 capacity. Secondary low fuel indicator? :-)
> >
> > Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
> >
> > --- Bob Unternaehrer <shilohcom@c-magic.com> wrote:
> >
> > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob
> > > Unternaehrer" <shilohcom@c-magic.com>
> > >
> > > You could have made the tanks the size you wanted to
> > > and cut them off after welding.
> >
> > Bob U.
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> >
> >
>
>
Message 10
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Shane Sather" <jeffery@polarnet.ca>
During my preflight last week I noticed one of the rudder hinges was loose. The
bolt had backed off a bit. All the more reason for good preflights for every
flight. I think a little Lock Tight will address this issue though.
PS I have a 912S and I seem to be able to start it up with not much shake as I
prime it good first. The shut down is a different story though, as it can (not
always) give a real good shake if I don't shut it down before it runs too slow.
Arctic Fox way up North
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: rudder hinge |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
PS I have a 912S and I seem to be able to start it up with not much shake as
I prime it good first. The shut down is a different story though, as it can
(not always) give a real good shake if I don't shut it down before it runs too
slow.
Arctic Fox way up North
I have the 582 and it used to shake pretty good on shut down. I tried
the following and it cut down the shake quite a bit:
Throttle up to about 2500 RPM's. Pull the throttle to zero at exactly
the same time you kill the mags. Shut down shake was a lot less and might work
on the 912's
Don Smythe
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: My fuel tank spring loaded drain valve continues to drip |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
In a message dated 8/15/04 9:51:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net writes:
> gascolator. I then rocked the wings and repeated each test. I then opened
> a wing drain and filled a sample tube with fuel. That was about 3 ounces.
> It was time to go home so I have not drained them out completely. So not
> sure how much is in there. Will let you know the amount after I finish
> draining. These are 1992 vintage 5 1/2 gallon aluminum wing tanks in a
>
I was about to say, "it still don't make sense". Then I noticed you have
51/2 gallon alum tanks. That is a horse of a different color. I have the older
fiberglass tanks with the fuel outlet toward the rear. If I drain the tanks
at a low point then there is no way any fuel is left in the tank. I think it
was around 1996 that Skystar moved the fuel outlet fwd on the tank. This was
to help prevent fuel starvation during a decent.
Don Smythe
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 13
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
John,
Please contact me off list
Thanks,
Don Smythe
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: OT: News from the north |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen <torgemor@online.no>
Hi Michel,
Got this one, the trip was "formidable". :)..
Thanks
Cheers
Torgeir.
do not archive
> Zhen I vill only zay one zing, mon ami: Bon voyage! :-)
>
> Cheers,
> Michel
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Flaperon Balance |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen <torgemor@online.no>
As always, right on the spot!!
Cheers
Torgeir.
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 00:35:36 -0700 (PDT), kurt schrader
<smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
> <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
>
> I think they actually have it backwards. Painting
> flight controls can be hazardous, but not likely a
> problem painting the counter-weights.
>
> Since weight is such an issue, aircraft are usually
> equiped with just enough weight to balance the control
> surface with one coat of paint. If you paint the
> surface more, you can unbalance it and allow flutter
> to occur. That is because you have too much weight
> aft of the hinge line, which is destabilizing. Seldom
> is too much weight forward a problem, other than just
> being heavy.
>
> The little bit of paint on the weights is negligable
> compared to the weight of all that paint on the
> flapperons, and most people paint them.
>
> Heavy flapperons and light weights are much worse than
> heavy weights and light flapperons.
>
> I think SS gave us enough counter weight for us to
> have everything painted.
>
> Kurt S. S-5, with painted weights and unpainted
> flapperons.
>
> --- Rex & Jan Shaw <rexjan@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>> I have a Kitfox MKIV Classic Speedster/582. It has
>> the counterbalanced
>> flaperons. The guys up the club the other day were
>> looking at my plane and
>> remarked that the weight balance was so critical
>> that a coat of paint on
>> them would put them out of balance with drastic
>> results. I bought the plane
>> already made and am not familiar with this aspect.
>> Can anyone comment if it
>> is this critical ? How are these things setup ? Are
>> they actually balanced
>> about the hinge line ? Rex.
>> rexjan@bigpond.com
>
>
> __________________________________
>
>
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Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Broken rudder hinge |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Floran Higgins" <CliffH@outdrs.net>
The three upper rod ends are 3/16. A 10-32 nut will fit them. The bottom one
is much larger, I did not remove it but I think it is at least 1/4.
I believe the bearings were aligned as the rudder was free to move fully in
either direction before the bearings broke.
I found that I get a much smoother start on cold mornings if I preheat the
engine before starting.
Floran H.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Torgeir Mortensen" <torgemor@online.no>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Broken rudder hinge
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen <torgemor@online.no>
>
> Kind of strange, really, wonder if they was properly aligned?
>
> Of course, vibration might also play a role here, however, the "old" setup
> is much stronger than four 3/16" rod ends. Do you have some pictures of
> this for us?
>
> My friends mod 4 (1050) do not vibrate much in the rudder area during
> start up, but do vibrate a lot other places. Yup, the engine is 912S.
>
> After the "new" choke "start procedure", much of the "rattle" is gone.
>
> However, breaking -esp. in a turn, will put lots of bending force on the
> rod end bearing close to the rudder horn (the two arms connected to the
> rudder wire).
>
> Torgeir
>
>
> On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 08:02:14 -0600, Floran Higgins <CliffH@outdrs.net>
> wrote:
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Floran Higgins" <CliffH@outdrs.net>
> >
> > The top one and the third one down are the ones that sheared. It wasn't
> > two
> > in a row.
> > Floran H.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> >
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Flapperon friction. |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen <torgemor@online.no>
Hi Folks,
During lot's of flying this summer I found that my aileron (flapperon)
have some more friction during flight close to max. take off weight. When
the wings is more loaded, they has a slight slope of course. This slope
also tend to bend the flapperon "tube" and I'll think this is the reason
for a more heavy aileron. Never thought about that, but this must be a
known "observation". Does anyone out there have a fix for this, -or, is
this something you have to live with?
PS. My aileron is "very" light on ground.
Torgeir.
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Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Broken rudder hinge |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen <torgemor@online.no>
Hi Floran,
I'll think your findings is very important. Firstly, rod ends is really
not designed to take "side loads" or bends. This device shall normally be
used for "in line force" I.E. push / pull. Of course, a big size rod end
can take some "bending force", but they are really not meant for such
purpose in the aviation.
As some already has pointed out, this must be treated an important point
in the preflight check.
Maybe also something for Don's precaution list?
Cheers
Torgeir.
On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 12:14:50 -0600, Floran Higgins <CliffH@outdrs.net>
wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Floran Higgins" <CliffH@outdrs.net>
>
> The three upper rod ends are 3/16. A 10-32 nut will fit them. The bottom
> one
> is much larger, I did not remove it but I think it is at least 1/4.
> I believe the bearings were aligned as the rudder was free to move fully
> in
> either direction before the bearings broke.
> I found that I get a much smoother start on cold mornings if I preheat
> the
> engine before starting.
> Floran H.
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>
> From: "Torgeir Mortensen" <torgemor@online.no>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Broken rudder hinge
>
>
>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen
>> <torgemor@online.no>
>>
>> Kind of strange, really, wonder if they was properly aligned?
>>
>> Of course, vibration might also play a role here, however, the "old"
>> setup
>> is much stronger than four 3/16" rod ends. Do you have some pictures of
>> this for us?
>>
>> My friends mod 4 (1050) do not vibrate much in the rudder area during
>> start up, but do vibrate a lot other places. Yup, the engine is 912S.
>>
>> After the "new" choke "start procedure", much of the "rattle" is gone.
>>
>> However, breaking -esp. in a turn, will put lots of bending force on the
>> rod end bearing close to the rudder horn (the two arms connected to the
>> rudder wire).
>>
>> Torgeir
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 08:02:14 -0600, Floran Higgins <CliffH@outdrs.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Floran Higgins"
>> <CliffH@outdrs.net>
>> >
>> > The top one and the third one down are the ones that sheared. It
>> wasn't
>> > two
>> > in a row.
>> > Floran H.
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
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Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: OT: News from the north |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Torgeir Mortensen wrote:
> Got this one, the trip was "formidable". :)..
Oh, l, l, formidable ... you sound almost like Maurice Chevalier, mon ami! :-)
About the flapperon friction ... hum, it makes sense and I never thought of it.
Now, tell us, did you eat a lot of "bonne cuisine" in France to gain so much
weight that you've reached MTOW when flying? :-)
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: rudder hinge |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Shane Sather" <jeffery@polarnet.ca>
I will give it a try next time Don. Thanks
Shane
----- Original Message -----
From: <AlbertaIV@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: rudder hinge
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
>
> PS I have a 912S and I seem to be able to start it up with not much shake
as
> I prime it good first. The shut down is a different story though, as it
can
> (not always) give a real good shake if I don't shut it down before it runs
too
> slow.
>
> Arctic Fox way up North
>
> I have the 582 and it used to shake pretty good on shut down. I tried
> the following and it cut down the shake quite a bit:
> Throttle up to about 2500 RPM's. Pull the throttle to zero at exactly
> the same time you kill the mags. Shut down shake was a lot less and might
work
> on the 912's
>
> Don Smythe
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Flapperon friction. |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Hi Torgier,
I forgot which model you have. Some people have
reported binding at those nylon bearings at the
inboard ends (under the turtle deck) when they are at
heavy weights. It was recommended that they be
removed. So far I am not up to that part of testing,
so I can not confirm. But then, I don't think you had
those bearings on your model, right?
Other than that, I think you are right. It is
probably the wing bending outboard of the struts that
puts a load on the bearings.
I still have 3 tight flapperon bearings on mine which
make the controls stiff in roll. I haven't found a
way to improve on that either. With the quick KF roll
rate, it hasn't been a problem. Gives it that "heavy"
feel that some like. I compare the feel of mine to a
C-180 with a higher roll rate and a stick.
Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
--- Torgeir Mortensen <torgemor@online.no> wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> During lot's of flying this summer I found that my
> aileron (flapperon) have some more friction during
> flight close to max. take off weight. When
> the wings is more loaded, they has a slight slope of
> course. This slope also tend to bend the flapperon
> "tube" and I'll think this is the reason
> for a more heavy aileron. Never thought about that,
> but this must be a known "observation". Does
> anyone out there have a fix for this, -or, is
> this something you have to live with?
>
> PS. My aileron is "very" light on ground.
>
> Torgeir.
__________________________________
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Broken rudder hinge |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Floran,
I think you are right about the vibration. And the
others are right about the weakness of threaded rod
ends. Since you broke every other one, it may be that
the vibrations set up a sine wave in your rudder when
it shakes.
From what the others said about the 912, the clutch
seems the best solution, though not the least
expensive. Most small, high compression engines are
just going to shake hard at start and shutdown. Those
with good techniques seem to make up for some of it.
Good catch on preflight! It could have been worse.
Thanks for sharing too. Those of us with just 3
bearings won't get as much warning.
Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
--- Floran Higgins <CliffH@outdrs.net> wrote:
> The three upper rod ends are 3/16. A 10-32 nut will
> fit them. The bottom one is much larger, I did not
> remove it but I think it is at least 1/4.
> I believe the bearings were aligned as the rudder
> was free to move fully in either direction before
> the bearings broke. I found that I get a much
> smoother start on cold mornings if I preheat the
> engine before starting.
> Floran H.
__________________________________
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Bulging header tank |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
I agree. I don't necessarily like the design I was
restrected to by the welder's needs (and my mods).
On the other hand, the clunking only occurs when I
empty and fill the header tank. After my testing is
complete, that will only happen on annuals. Therefore
I don't expect a lot of flexing in its lifetime.
And it appears to be the tank's front that clunks.
That is only welded at the bottom, with the sides and
top are formed by bending. So I think it will work
out OK in the end, but I'll keep an eye on it.
Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
--- jimshumaker <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Lowell is right.
>
> It is takes very few flexures to fatigue aluminum.
>
> Jim Shumaker
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt"
> <lcfitt@inreach.com>
> >
> > Kurt, I am certainly not an engineer, but the
> design troubles me a little
> > bit - especially the clunk. It would seem that
> any movement in the tank,
> > and I would think it would be minimal at the worst
> would tend to work the
> > welds. For example of you were to pressurize the
> tank all the welds would
> > be acting sort of hinge-like and possibly work
> hardening. The good part is
> > that I doubt there would be a catastrophic
> failure, but rather leaks
> > developing in time.
> >
> > Just a thought.
> >
> > Lowell
__________________________________
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Flapperon friction. |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Ceashman@aol.com
Kirt.
I agree, removing the nylon bearings at the turtledeck seems very frightening
to me also. Especially if one were to remove them because of stiffness caused
by friction during high wing loadings. Heavy or G forces.
In fact I have seen these bearings removed on Kitfoxes at airshows. And I
don't understand the reasoning! If in fact there is excessive deformation of the
flaperon tube at this point, then there will be extra deformation without the
nylon bearing and there will have to be very much reduced flaperon authority
and directional control!!
I think?
Torgier.
I have been over gross in my Classic IV 1200, and have not experienced the
stiffer/heavier flaperon feeling you mention. It kind of feels like my
experiences when I was flying a Cessna 152 alone or when the plane was fully loaded.
You don't have that immediate directional response.
I would like to know what would be the consequences of removing the turtle
deck bearings. If anyone has the answer.
Eric Ashman. Atlanta GA
e-mail; ceashman@aol.com
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Flapperon friction. |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
Torgeir,
I think this has been addressed by Skystar. The Speedster manual called for
cutting the flaperons chordwise at some point - midpoint? and taping the gap
with reinforcing tape. I believe this was to eliminate the bending flaperon
/ friction issue while doing some of the manouvers the Speedster is stressed
to do. It is also, I believe one of the reasons the Speedster has two mass
balance weights vs. one for the Classic / Model IV-1200.
It was later determined that the cutting taping was not necessary and this
step was eliminated.
The elimination of the Nylon sheet bearing came later and I believe began
with the series V. I have talked of several of the later type owners that
were interested in ideas on how to close the gap in the turtle deck that was
previously neatly closed by the bearing.
I also have not noticed any increased stiffness. I do, however, really
like the way it flies with just me and fuel on board. As I think of it
maybe mine is just stiff in all loadings, because there is friction there,
although not enough to help eliminate the ever-present slightly heavy left
wing.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Torgeir Mortensen" <torgemor@online.no>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Flapperon friction.
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen <torgemor@online.no>
>
> Hi Folks,
>
> During lot's of flying this summer I found that my aileron (flapperon)
> have some more friction during flight close to max. take off weight. When
> the wings is more loaded, they has a slight slope of course. This slope
> also tend to bend the flapperon "tube" and I'll think this is the reason
> for a more heavy aileron. Never thought about that, but this must be a
> known "observation". Does anyone out there have a fix for this, -or, is
> this something you have to live with?
>
> PS. My aileron is "very" light on ground.
>
> Torgeir.
>
> --
> Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: rudder hinge |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
With all due respect to the input before mine, my personal opinion is that
the broken rudder hinges have nothing to do with engine vibration. It sound
like simple misalignment to me. As the rudder moves back and forth any
misalignment of those hinges will cause flexing of the rudder and also the
rod ends which over time can easily cause something to eventually work
harden and break.
Darrel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shane Sather" <jeffery@polarnet.ca>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: rudder hinge
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Shane Sather" <jeffery@polarnet.ca>
>
> I will give it a try next time Don. Thanks
>
> Shane
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <AlbertaIV@aol.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: rudder hinge
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
> >
> > PS I have a 912S and I seem to be able to start it up with not much
shake
> as
> > I prime it good first. The shut down is a different story though, as it
> can
> > (not always) give a real good shake if I don't shut it down before it
runs
> too
> > slow.
> >
> > Arctic Fox way up North
> >
> > I have the 582 and it used to shake pretty good on shut down. I
tried
> > the following and it cut down the shake quite a bit:
> > Throttle up to about 2500 RPM's. Pull the throttle to zero at
exactly
> > the same time you kill the mags. Shut down shake was a lot less and
might
> work
> > on the 912's
> >
> > Don Smythe
> > DO NOT ARCHIVE
> >
> >
>
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Flapperon friction. |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jimshumaker" <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net>
Torgeir
Are you flying a model III? If so that is what I am flying. I have never
felt the heavy roll when flying over gross or even when pulling G's.
Removing the turtle deck bearing on a III is a no-no, but May be OK on other
models.
Jim Shumaker
----- Original Message -----
From: "Torgeir Mortensen" <torgemor@online.no>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Flapperon friction.
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen <torgemor@online.no>
>
> Hi Folks,
>
> During lot's of flying this summer I found that my aileron (flapperon)
> have some more friction during flight close to max. take off weight. When
> the wings is more loaded, they has a slight slope of course. This slope
> also tend to bend the flapperon "tube" and I'll think this is the reason
> for a more heavy aileron. Never thought about that, but this must be a
> known "observation". Does anyone out there have a fix for this, -or, is
> this something you have to live with?
>
> PS. My aileron is "very" light on ground.
>
> Torgeir.
>
> --
> Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
>
>
Message 28
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|
| Subject: | Re: My fuel tank spring loaded drain valve continues to drip |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jimshumaker" <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net>
Don
As I recall you fly a gray horse :-) My tanks drain to the rear and it is
not where they drain from but the fact that the fuel hose comes out the side
rather than the bottom that leaves unused fuel in the bottom of the tank.
I drained about 5 ounces out of the bottoms of the tanks. That is more than
half a cup, or alot more than it takes to fill the fuel lines and the carb
bowls. It means that if you ever drained water out of the low point drain
then there must be a minimum of two ounces of water left in the tanks to
slosh around.
Jim Shumaker
----- Original Message -----
From: <AlbertaIV@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: My fuel tank spring loaded drain valve continues
to drip
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 8/15/04 9:51:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net writes:
>
>
> > gascolator. I then rocked the wings and repeated each test. I then
opened
> > a wing drain and filled a sample tube with fuel. That was about 3
ounces.
> > It was time to go home so I have not drained them out completely. So
not
> > sure how much is in there. Will let you know the amount after I finish
> > draining. These are 1992 vintage 5 1/2 gallon aluminum wing tanks in a
> >
>
> I was about to say, "it still don't make sense". Then I noticed you have
> 51/2 gallon alum tanks. That is a horse of a different color. I have the
older
> fiberglass tanks with the fuel outlet toward the rear. If I drain the
tanks
> at a low point then there is no way any fuel is left in the tank. I think
it
> was around 1996 that Skystar moved the fuel outlet fwd on the tank. This
was
> to help prevent fuel starvation during a decent.
>
> Don Smythe
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Flapperon friction. |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
In a message dated 8/15/04 6:04:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
lcfitt@inreach.com writes:
> / friction issue while doing some of the manouvers the Speedster is
> stressed
> to do. It is also, I believe one of the reasons the Speedster has two mass
> balance weights vs. one for the Classic / Model IV-1200.
>
Lowell,
Slight correction. The Classic IV has two balance weights per wing and
the instructions called for cutting the flapperons as you mention. I called
Skystar on this during the building and they said "NOT" to cut per instructions.
Classic IV Sep 95. I further asked if I could leave off one of the balance
weights to conserve weight. They said to leave as is with both weights per
wing.
Don Smythe
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Flapperon friction. |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
In a message dated 8/15/04 6:13:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net writes:
>
> Are you flying a model III? If so that is what I am flying. I have never
> felt the heavy roll when flying over gross or even when pulling G's.
> Removing the turtle deck bearing on a III is a no-no, but May be OK on other
> models.
>
> Jim Shumaker
>
Jim,
When the conversation came up to remove the turtledeck bearing I believe
it included the IV and up or, maybe it was the Classic IV and up.
Don Smythe
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: rudder hinge |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
In a message dated 8/15/04 6:12:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
morid@northland.lib.mi.us writes:
> With all due respect to the input before mine, my personal opinion is that
> the broken rudder hinges have nothing to do with engine vibration. It sound
> like simple misalignment to me. As the rudder moves back and forth any
> misalignment of those hinges will cause flexing of the rudder and also the
> rod ends which over time can easily cause something to eventually work
> harden and break.
> Darrel
>
>
Darrel,
I would have to agree. Can't see how engine vibration would cause this.
On the other hand, there is no adjustment back there to correct or improve
alignment? Sounds like another "something" that the List needs to solve.
Recommend everybody get out of bed and run to the airport for a survey of their
personal installation and report back.
I never get amazed at the new wrinkles that keep coming up that could put
us in harms way.
Don Smythe
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 32
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| Subject: | Flapperon friction. |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean@cableone.net>
The flaperon bearing was removed on the Series 6 and tested without the
bearing. It was determined at that point that the bearing would not be
needed on Series 5 with the 1550 wing only (.065 wall spar thickness)
If memory serves me correctly the Model IV's were tested without them.. it
became a requirement for the aircraft being shipped to Europe.. by the
authorities for JAR/VLA...
Lowell you are correct.. it was determined that the cutting was not
necessary.
Blue Skies
John & Debra McBean
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Flapperon friction.
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
Torgeir,
I think this has been addressed by Skystar. The Speedster manual called for
cutting the flaperons chordwise at some point - midpoint? and taping the gap
with reinforcing tape. I believe this was to eliminate the bending flaperon
/ friction issue while doing some of the manouvers the Speedster is stressed
to do. It is also, I believe one of the reasons the Speedster has two mass
balance weights vs. one for the Classic / Model IV-1200.
It was later determined that the cutting taping was not necessary and this
step was eliminated.
The elimination of the Nylon sheet bearing came later and I believe began
with the series V. I have talked of several of the later type owners that
were interested in ideas on how to close the gap in the turtle deck that was
previously neatly closed by the bearing.
I also have not noticed any increased stiffness. I do, however, really
like the way it flies with just me and fuel on board. As I think of it
maybe mine is just stiff in all loadings, because there is friction there,
although not enough to help eliminate the ever-present slightly heavy left
wing.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Torgeir Mortensen" <torgemor@online.no>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Flapperon friction.
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen <torgemor@online.no>
>
> Hi Folks,
>
> During lot's of flying this summer I found that my aileron (flapperon)
> have some more friction during flight close to max. take off weight. When
> the wings is more loaded, they has a slight slope of course. This slope
> also tend to bend the flapperon "tube" and I'll think this is the reason
> for a more heavy aileron. Never thought about that, but this must be a
> known "observation". Does anyone out there have a fix for this, -or, is
> this something you have to live with?
>
> PS. My aileron is "very" light on ground.
>
> Torgeir.
>
> --
> Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
>
>
Message 33
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clem Nichols" <cnichols@scrtc.com>
I think it was someone on this group who mentioned a few months ago about using
the PocketFMS navigation system. If so would you, or anyone else familiar with
the system, please contact me off list. I've been trying to synchronize it
with my PDA for over a week now, and all I can seem to get is error messages.
If it weren't for fear that there's something wrong with my desktop computer,
my activesync program or the PDA itself, I'd probably forget about PocketFMS
and go directly to something like Anywhere Map. Obviously, I'd hate to spend
a few hundred bucks for a different softwear program only to find out that I
can't get it to work any better than PocketFMS. I'd appreciate any help offered.
Clem Nichols
Do Not Archive
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| Subject: | Flapperon friction. |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
John,
So does this mean that the bearings should be removed
from -5 1550's and newer? Or are they to be taken off
only if binding? All I have ever heard about this
were rumors.
Kurt S.
--- jdmcbean <jdmcbean@cableone.net> wrote:
> The flaperon bearing was removed on the Series 6 and
> tested without the bearing. It was determined
> at that point that the bearing would not be
> needed on Series 5 with the 1550 wing only (.065
> wall spar thickness)
>
> Blue Skies
> John & Debra McBean
> "The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
__________________________________
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Broken rudder hinge |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Floran,
The reason I thought you might be right about it being
vibration is because you said that the rudder worked
freely before. If there was an alignment problem, it
should have some over-center or binding that you can
feel, unless the mounts were spaced poorly and
stressed purely vertically only. You should be able
to check both problems when you remount the rudder
with new rod ends.
If it was a rudder cable stress problem, the top one
shouldn't break IMHO.
So I suppose bad vibes takes the lead guess for me,
unless it was binding and you didn't feel it because
it was already assembled.
In any case, reassembly should give a pretty good
answer as top the cause.
Kurt S.
--- Floran Higgins <CliffH@outdrs.net> wrote:
> The top one and the third one down are the ones that
> sheared. It wasn't two in a row.
> Floran H.
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