Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:04 AM - Re: Fuel return line (Kerry Skyring)
2. 03:57 AM - Re: Tail Wheel Shimmy and Return Fuel Line (Fox5flyer)
3. 04:26 AM - SV: Tail Wheel Shimmy (Michel Verheughe)
4. 04:29 AM - Re: Spark Plugs (Jim Burke)
5. 04:48 AM - Re: TCP, was: sparkplugs, 912, avgas (Clifford Begnaud)
6. 04:58 AM - Re: Tail wheel spring, was: Tail Wheel Shimmy (Clifford Begnaud)
7. 06:00 AM - SV: Re: Tail wheel spring (Michel Verheughe)
8. 06:43 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox-List Digest: 23 Msgs - 08/16/04( Kerry's header tank dilemma) (Lowell Fitt)
9. 07:02 AM - Electric Prop Failure (kitfoxjunky)
10. 07:35 AM - Re: Fuel return line (Paul)
11. 07:38 AM - Re: Re: Tail wheel spring, was: Tail Wheel Shimmy (Mark Schindler)
12. 08:08 AM - Re: Electric Prop Failure (jdmcbean)
13. 08:19 AM - Re: Re: Tail wheel spring, was: Tail Wheel Shimmy (Jim Crowder)
14. 09:01 AM - Re: Electric Prop Failure (Rick)
15. 09:27 AM - Re: Re: Tail wheel spring, was: Tail Wheel Shimmy (Clifford Begnaud)
16. 09:28 AM - Re: Electric Prop Failure (Ron)
17. 10:17 AM - Re: Tail Wheel Shimmy and Return Fuel Line (kurt schrader)
18. 10:43 AM - Re: Electric Prop Failure (kurt schrader)
19. 10:47 AM - Re: Electric Prop Failure (kurt schrader)
20. 11:53 AM - Re: Electric Prop Failure (Fox5flyer)
21. 12:25 PM - Re: Electric Prop Failure (kitfoxjunky)
22. 01:32 PM - Re: Electronic or points (Torgeir Mortensen)
23. 01:36 PM - Re: Electric Prop Failure (The Gaskills)
24. 02:11 PM - Re: Electric Prop Failure (kitfoxjunky)
25. 02:25 PM - Re: Electric Prop Failure (Torgeir Mortensen)
26. 02:34 PM - Re: Fuel level sighting ()
27. 03:35 PM - Re: Electric Prop Failure (John Oakley)
28. 03:38 PM - Re: Fuel return line (Torgeir Mortensen)
29. 05:39 PM - Re: Fuel return line (Jose M. Toro)
30. 06:54 PM - To the best of my knowledge, we never had any 532 CDI's delivered to (Rex & Jan Shaw)
31. 07:01 PM - I'm wondering why the system you describe would n't work on a 2 stroke 503 (Rex & Jan Shaw)
32. 08:16 PM - Re: Re: TCP, 912, avgas (Ceashman@aol.com)
33. 08:30 PM - 912 UL (Kirk Martenson)
34. 09:03 PM - Re: Electric Prop Failure (jdmcbean)
35. 09:10 PM - Kitfox IV on floats (Maurice Fraser)
36. 09:35 PM - Re: 912 UL (jimshumaker)
37. 10:05 PM - Re: Re: TCP, was: sparkplugs, 912, avgas (Jim Crowder)
38. 11:24 PM - Re: Electric Prop Failure (kurt schrader)
39. 11:40 PM - Re: Electric Prop Failure (Jim Crowder)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel return line |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Kerry Skyring" <kerryskyring@hotmail.com>
Thanks Ron. Actually we're in Austria and our experience so far is that they
are quite reasonable.
I think with the help from the list we will get around this one.
Kerry
>From: "Ron" <rliebmann@comcast.net>
>Reply-To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel return line
>Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 11:59:44 -0500
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ron" <rliebmann@comcast.net>
>
>Hi Kerry,
>
>If your Tech Inspector is an EAA Technical Counselor his suggestions to you
>are just "suggestions" and you do not have to agree with him. He is to be
>respected for his experience but "We" are not always correct with
>everything
>we say. I, as a Tech Counselor/Flight Advisor, am always seeking to learn
>anything that I am not positive of. Check with other listers for more
>opinions.
>If he is with the FAA, well, thats a different story.
>
>Ron N55KF
>
>
> > Turning to the list again for advice.
> > Our technical inspector has cast doubt on the practice of routing the
>fuel
> > return line from the carburettors (S5 912ULS) back to the header tank.
>His
> > thinking is that the tank is constantly under pressure thus prohibiting
>the
> > return function. If we can't convince him otherwise we have to route
> > it to one of the wing tanks. A lot of trouble when we want to get this
>thing
> > flying.
> >
> > Could listers comment?
> > Thanks
> > Kerry
> >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Tail Wheel Shimmy and Return Fuel Line |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
No more grove tailwheel springs? Oooooooh, this is bad news! Bummer...
Darrel
> snip...
> I did call Grove and talked to Robbie Grove--a real nice person. They are
> out of the tail wheel spring business for lack of volume orders. His best
> suggestion is for me to go to a truck spring shop and have mine re bent.
I
> don't think they have sagged, but were just not correct for my application
> from the beginning. Robbie says it is best that they position the pivot
> point at 90 degrees to the ground and that being far off of that in either
> direction invites shimmy. He did say that up to 5 degrees positive castor
> is usually acceptable. I will attempt to have them bent within that
range.
snip...
> Jim Crowder
Message 3
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| Subject: | Tail Wheel Shimmy |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
> From: Fox5flyer [morid@northland.lib.mi.us]
> No more grove tailwheel springs? Oooooooh, this is bad news! Bummer...
Excuse my ignorance but what's the difference between the Grove springs and those
you can find here?
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/lg/tailwheelaccessories.html
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 4
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jim Burke <jeburke94je@direcway.com>
Kirk, I guess I overlooked this message. I have a 582 and can change the
wires with out changing the coiles.
James E. Burke
(N94JE)
-------Original Message-------
From: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Spark Plugs
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
This was recommended by Rotax at the seminar.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeffrey Puls" <pulsair@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Spark Plugs
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Puls" <pulsair@mindspring.com>
>
> Jim,
> You may want to unscrew your caps and snip off a very little piece off the
> end. Screw the caps back on and tie wrap with a very small tie wrap. This
> sometimes helps. Jeff Classic IV.
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Kirk Martenson <kirk@mninter.net>
> > To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> > Date: 8/11/2004 11:20:34 PM
> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Spark Plugs
> >
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Kirk Martenson" <kirk@mninter.net>
> >
> > Jim Burke:
> >
> > Do you have a Rotax 912 in your Kitfox? I have had a very slight rough
> > running engine (Rotax 912UL). I changed the spark plugs, and rebuilt
the
> > carburetors. Still rough, but only slightly, no rpm drop. I would like
> > change out the plug wires as well, but I don't know if you can just
change
> > the wires. Do you have to buy the whole coil?
> >
> >
> > Kirk Martenson
> > Classic IV
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jim Burke" <jeburke94je@direcway.com>
> > To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Spark Plugs
> >
> >
> > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jim Burke
<jeburke94je@direcway.com>
> > >
> > > Curious you should bring spark plugs up Don, I had a similar problem a
> > > couple of weeks ago. I changed out the new plugs and the miss went
away
> > for
> > > a couple of flights (about three hours). Then it came back. So I
> replaced
> > > the plugs wires and have put eight hours on the plane with no Miss. I
> > guess
> > > it could have been a bag of mixed tricks but it runs great now.
> > >
> > >
> > > James E. Burke
> > > (N94JE)
> > > -------Original Message-------
> > >
> > > From: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> > > Date: 08/09/04 14:34:07
> > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> > > Subject: Kitfox-List: Spark Plugs
> > >
> > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
> > >
> > > I experienced a slight miss in my 582 engine. This started less
> than
> > 5
> > > hours after putting in new BR8ES plugs. I replace the plugs again
today
> > and
> > > the miss went away. Old plugs looked brand new and color was
excellent.
> > > Has anyone ever had a new plug go bad in a short time? This is my
> > first
> > >
> > >
> > > Don Smythe
> > > DO NOT ARCHIVE
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: TCP, was: sparkplugs, 912, avgas |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud" <shoeless@barefootpilot.com>
Eric,
Risk using 100 LL ???
I know that it is best to use TCP with the 912 and 100LL, but you are not
going to hurt your engine by using "some 100LL" without the TCP. Heck for
quite a while you couldn't even get TCP. You don't think all of the
thousands of 912 owners just parked their planes during that time? I'll bet
if you polled 912 owners in North America, more than half probably never
even heard of TCP. Most probably don't use auto fuel unless they haul it
from the auto gas station, and that carries much more risk than anything
posed by 100LL.
We put over 1000 hours on our 912, probably 400 of those using 100 LL
without TCP, with no ill effects. I say this with confidence because it was
overhauled at nearly 1000 hours due to ingestion of some washers and
Lockwood made a point of how our engine was in excellent condition, other
than the ingestion damage. Seriously, they even asked how often I changed
the oil because the engine interior looked like new! (I changed it every
25-30 hours)
So, go ahead, venture out there! Just don't use 100% synthetic motor oil
with 100LL because synthetic oil doesn't suspend lead. A blend is ok. But if
you are worried, use 100% non-synthetic. (we mostly used synthetic blends)
Best Regards,
Cliff
Erie, CO
>
> OK... where do I get this stuff?
>
> John McBean, you said you are the distributor is that for the entire
country
> or is there someone near Atlanta. GA. Who sells "Decalin TCP"
>
> Sometimes I feel tethered to my home airport because I don't want to risk
> using 100LL in my 912 UL. But if I can keep a bottle of this led scavenger
in the
> baggage area, I can fillerup wherever.
> Any side effects that you can think off?
>
> Thanks in advance. Eric. Classic IV, Atlanta
> e-mail; ceashman@aol.com
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Tail wheel spring, was: Tail Wheel Shimmy |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud" <shoeless@barefootpilot.com>
Michel,
He was talking about the main tailwheel spring, the one to which your
tailwheel attaches. This is a serious problem because now there is NO ONE
making a spring to fit kitfoxes. Skystar supposedly has a prototype in
testing (3 leaf steel) but last time I spoke with them it was not in
production. Anyone know otherwise?
I visited Univair here in Denver a few months ago with one of my old springs
to see if I could find one that is compatible. We went through their entire
wall of springs without finding a suitable match.
Perhaps this is something that John McBean could add to his list of
specialty items to have produced and to sell for Kitfoxes? John, how about
it?
Best Regards,
Cliff
>
> > From: Fox5flyer [morid@northland.lib.mi.us]
> > No more grove tailwheel springs? Oooooooh, this is bad news! Bummer...
>
> Excuse my ignorance but what's the difference between the Grove springs
and those you can find here?
>
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/lg/tailwheelaccessories.html
>
> Cheers,
> Michel
>
> do not archive
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Tail wheel spring |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
> From: Clifford Begnaud [shoeless@barefootpilot.com]
> He was talking about the main tailwheel spring, the one to which your
> tailwheel attaches.
Ah, the leaf spring, Cliff! Thanks a lot. Unfortunately it is not the first time
I do that mistake.
Anyway, this means that I have to be careful with mine. I once asked a metal workshop
here if they could custom-make me a leaf spring. They looked at me as if
I was coming from another planet. I guess this tempered steel work is something
from the past.
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Kitfox-List Digest: 23 Msgs - 08/16/04( Kerry's header |
tank dilemma)
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
Stu, Definitely not a laugher. Good insight and in my opinion right on the
money. In my opinion, this is just one more example of someone, not
familiar with the airplane, putting some tidbit of information, picked up
who knows where, on a perfectly good design.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stu Bryant" <s.j.bryant@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: RE: Kitfox-List Digest: 23 Msgs - 08/16/04( Kerry's
header tank dilemma)
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Stu Bryant" <s.j.bryant@sbcglobal.net>
>
>
> Kerry,
> First a big caveat- I have not ever yet seen the arrangement of how the
> header is fed by the wing tanks nor how the (excess fuel, not vapor)
return
> is routed. I make a few assumptions which may or may not be valid. So this
> might be good for some hysterical laughter if nothing else. But it seems
to
> me...
>
> This is interesting logic on the part of your inspector. Ask him what
> pressurizes the header tank in the first place. Let him ruminate on that a
> bit. Give him a couple minutes. Maybe you might just see a light bulb
light
> up over his head! The back pressure (as seen by the return line) to feed
the
> wing tank would virtually if not exactly equal the pressure built up
inside
> the header, at least in a static system. Dynamic could be worse. The wing
> tanks cannot exert any more force on the header than the equivalent column
> between the two actual levels. If the return fuel is pumped back uphill to
> the wing tank it still has that back pressure to overcome- the very same
> gravitational force which pressurizes the header. Six of one and a half
> dozen of the other. The header is closed in a sense, but unless there is a
> check valve or regulator isolating them the pressure as seen by the return
> line should only differ from a wing tank return line by the flow
resistance
> caused by the added length of whichever is longer (in essence induced
drag)-
> essentially no difference at all I'm guessing.
>
> If we are talking a return line then we are talking about some sort of
> active fuel pump- not gravity feed alone. It is common practice with
> industrial pumps of many sorts to loop the return line back to the inlet
> side. The inlet has a relative negative pressure so the discharge stays
> happy and the outlet pressure can be kept as low as desired by a regulator
> or throttling valve in that loop. The fuel pump/carb return line could be
> routed this way (teed back into the inlet side) so long as provision for
> maintaining enough pressure at the carb float bowl is made. Seems easier
to
> just keep the present header routing. Unless measured backpressure is
> outside the established normal range as stated by the manufacturer,
anyway.
>
> Stu Bryant
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Electric Prop Failure |
10:02:28 AM
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxjunky" <kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com>
On June 26 I departed Brantford Ontario in my Kitfox IV Anphib for Baker
Valley airport, a remote airport that was having an informal flyin. On
board I had camping gear and my 12 year old daughter. We had a good time
and returned the following day, fighting a 20 knot head wind most of the
way home. After fueling up in Brampton, near Toronto, we turned South
towards Brantford. Making the turn meant we would finally get a tailwind
component from the strong and steady wind. During this 40 minute leg of a
3.5 hr journey, and only a few minutes from our destination airport, we
experienced an incredible noise and vibration. It felt like the engine had
exploded. At the same instant I wittnessed a prop blade depart and lodge
itself in the port float. I pulled the throttle immediately and hit the
master and mags. I was just barley at the parimeter of the Brantford zone
at 1500' AGL, and after calming my daughter down I turned into the wind
looking for an ultralight strip I knew of. I did not even consider trying
for the airport, as I knew from experience that the Kitfox on floats was a
poor glider. Guaging the drift from the strong wind, I decided I could
not make the ultralight strip. I considered the river, but was afraid that
the plane would sink due to the damaged float. Instead I turned downwind
and continued to search for a suitable field. During this time the wind
had pushed me even closer to the airport, and I decided to try for a
runway. We were lucky, and came across the numbers with lots of speed,
making a dead stick cross wind landing. I landed with the gear down, and
the aircraft tracked fine despite the fact that the port nose wheel did not
lock in place. There was only one other aircraft on the field, as it was a
Sunday evening. I will always remember the look on the face of the pilot
and passenger of that Cessna as we glided past him onto the taxiway with a
prop blade sicking up vertically from the left float.
I pulled the aircraft from the taxiway to my hanger, noting that the engine
was sagging considerably, and that it easily moved up and down with each
bump in the taxiway. A couple of fellow pilots met me at my hanger, drawn
by the unusual propeller configuration. They wanted to remove the cowls
and check out the damage. I wanted to secure the plan and get my daughter
away, fearing we would remove the cowls and find the engine hanging by a
thread.
I returned to the field later to survey the damage. The two top tube
clusters on the engine mount had broken away completely, leaving only the
bottom two holding the engine to the airframe. In total, seven tubes had
been severed. There were rubber particals everywhere as parts of the
isolators had desintegrated. Both carbs had vibrated free of the engine,
being held by the fuel lines, throttle and carb cables. In retrospec, the
engine may have shut down itself down due to fuel starvation, rather than
due to my fast reflexes. I did not have safety cables attaching the engine
to the airframe. It was obvious we had come very close to losing the engine
completely in flight. I had beefed up the mount the previous year in
response to a service bulletin from Skystar. Thanks Skystar for posting
service bulletins on the web.
The exhaust canister was damaged. The junctions where the header pipes
enter the exhaust were cracked, and the exhaust pipe itself was ripped from
the canister. The oil tank, which sits on top of the engine, was dented and
cracked from pounding on the engine block. The port float was damaged
(Aerocet 1100 anphibs), with the blade puncturing the float, hitting the
pully assembly and cutting the cable. Surprisingly, the blade itself was
in very good condition. I knew Warp drive made a tough blade, but I never
would have believed it could take that level of abuse without breaking into
pieces.
Of course the NSI hub was damaged. One blade had departed cleanly from the
hub, with half of the cuff remaining in the hub and the remainder on the
end of the blade. The prop had less than 250 hours on it, having been
purchased and installed by the previous owner in the spring of 1998. I
had reported to NSI that there was in increase in greese being thrown from
the hub. The previous owner had put lots of greese in the hub when he
assembled it. NSI told me to remove the greese, and not to idle the engine
below 2100 rpm. I had split the hub and inspected it recently as part of
the annual, and did not observe any cracks. Then again, I was not looking
as closely as I would be now.
The Rotax 912S was removed and inspected by an engineer familiar with this
kind of engine. The gearbox was removed and NDT tested, and the crank was
dialed. Fortuanatley, it was determined that the engine was not damaged. A
slipper clutch was installed at the same time. The engine is also
relatively new, being installed shortly before the NSI prop was added.
I reported the incident to the Transportation Safety Board. Since there
was no damage to people or property, other than the plane, Transport Canada
did not investigate further. I took several photos with a digital camera,
and reported the problem to NSI both via email and telephone. The prop
assembly was then removed and sent to Cambridge Material Testing Labs. I
wanted to ensure its condition was examined and documented before I shipped
it to NSI, in case anything was lost or damaged in shipping. I then
shipped the prop back to NSI. They got it July 27.
NSI is still investigating, and have told me they will be contacting
customers running the 912S and Cap 140 combination once they have completed
their investigation. If you are running a CAP in flight adjustable prop,
especially with the Rotax 912S, I would suggest you check it for cracks.
Look at the groove that runs around the ourside of the cuff. It appears to
act as a stress riser, and seems to be where the crack originated. Check
the photos on my web site. The address is below. If you do not have safety
cables holding your engine to the airframe, I would recommend that you add
them. If you have the 912S, you should consider adding the slipper
clutch.
Considering all the possible scenarios, we were very lucky. I hope to be
flying on wheels before the end of the season, and hopefully back on floats
next year in time for Oshkosh.
Gary Walsh
C-GOOT
www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel return line |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Paul <pwilson@climber.org>
Yes. Operate the pump for a predetermined time before starting. You conduct the
test for the time required. In theory the electric pump should fill the bowls.
With a return line you have additional assurance that they fill and when you
travel on that really hot day you have much better vapor lock protection. Just
remember that if you use auto gas the trend over the years has been to add more
and more aromatics to the fuel which is really bad in a plane. So while you
may not have an issue today with uneven float bowls filling or vapor lock in
the future it may be a serious issue.
Autos I am familiar with these days have the return line although they have a
closed FI system as opposed to the open system of the Bing carbs, they expect
vaporization due to the fuel used. I read somewhere that there are over two dozen
fuel formulations across the US and the vapor pressure is much different between
them all. The last car I saw with a return line and a carb was Pontiac.
The after market repair for the old carb Ford pickup vapor lock issue was an
electric pump and a return line. These days both a pressure relief valve and orifices
are used to control the return flow.
In short IMO, it is prudent to have a return line. AND be sure to NOT forget a
restrictive orifice.
Those who have a flow meter in their fuel system must calibrate the orifice in
the return line to allow an offset to compensate and to assure that the engine
gets the proper flow. A shutoff valve in the return line that is operated by
the pilot is an alternate solution, but this fix is a built in failure mode that
needs careful consideration.
Paul
=========
At 6:18 PM -0700 8/17/04, Lowell Fitt wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
>
>Paul good explanation. One question. I have a facit pump just below the
>header tank. could I expect the pressure from this pump filling the float
>bowls without a return line?
>
>Lowell
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Paul" <pwilson@climber.org>
>To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel return line
>
>
>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Paul <pwilson@climber.org>
>>
>> Hi Jim,
>> Its just good engineering to have a fuel return line. The header tank is
>designed for that feature, but Skystar only shows its use with the FI IO240.
>We owe the mature design to our buddy who was a NASA engineer. He is no
>longer with us. His design uses a Facet like Jim Crowder uses and it had a
>tee at each carb on his 912S. The return lines from each carb combine into a
>3/8" return line and pass thru an orifice to the header tank via the port
>provided. (The design refered to was more complex than described here with
>redundant pumps, etc).
>> The primary purpose for this design was not vapor lock but was to allow
>complete filling of the 912S dual carbs before starting. The result was a
>much smoother start of the engine since both sides of the engine would then
>be fully fueled. This was very important when the 912S first came out due to
>cracking and breakage of the engine mount caused by engine shake.
>> Of course the secondary purpose of the design was the elimination of
>vapor lock caused by heat soak of the carbs.
>> In any event the system was passive and fuel always flowed back to the
>header. Testing is required to size the small orifice in the return line to
>assure that the engine gets adequate fuel with both the electric pump as
>well as the engine driven pump.
>> It is true that a return to a main tank is preferred but that design
>would involve more complex plumbing and a reduction in reliability. The
>return to the header is adequate for most engines and requires minimal
>testing.
>> And yes, the fuel pump and filter S/B located at the fuel system low
>point under the seat with this proper design.
>> If more info on the system is desired I am sure it is in the archives as
>it was discussed to death long ago.
>> Paul
>> ==============
> >
>> At 9:57 PM -0700 8/16/04, jimshumaker wrote:
>> >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jimshumaker"
><jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net>
>> >
>> >Bob
>> >
>> >I have been flying with my 912 UL for several years and this is the first
>I
>> >have heard of a vapor return line. I can not even concieve of one being
> > >after the fuel pump. What am I missing?
>> >
>> >Jim Shumaker
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>
>
--
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Tail wheel spring, was: Tail Wheel Shimmy |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Mark Schindler <mtschindler@yahoo.com>
what about Steve Winder at Airdale - he has pretty much anything for an Avid or
Kitfox.
www.airdale.com
Clifford Begnaud <shoeless@barefootpilot.com> wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud"
Michel,
He was talking about the main tailwheel spring, the one to which your
tailwheel attaches. This is a serious problem because now there is NO ONE
making a spring to fit kitfoxes. Skystar supposedly has a prototype in
testing (3 leaf steel) but last time I spoke with them it was not in
production. Anyone know otherwise?
I visited Univair here in Denver a few months ago with one of my old springs
to see if I could find one that is compatible. We went through their entire
wall of springs without finding a suitable match.
Perhaps this is something that John McBean could add to his list of
specialty items to have produced and to sell for Kitfoxes? John, how about
it?
Best Regards,
Cliff
>
> > From: Fox5flyer [morid@northland.lib.mi.us]
> > No more grove tailwheel springs? Oooooooh, this is bad news! Bummer...
>
> Excuse my ignorance but what's the difference between the Grove springs
and those you can find here?
>
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/lg/tailwheelaccessories.html
>
> Cheers,
> Michel
>
> do not archive
>
>
---------------------------------
Message 12
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| Subject: | Electric Prop Failure |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean@cableone.net>
Gary,
I am so glad that you and your daughter are fine. This is the third such
failure that I know of. That last one actually brought the aircraft by the
SS factory and it was exactly as you described. The only reason he said the
engine was still on the frame was because it shook the carbs off and starved
the engine.
Blue Skies
John & Debra McBean
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of kitfoxjunky
Subject: Kitfox-List: Electric Prop Failure
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxjunky"
<kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com>
On June 26 I departed Brantford Ontario in my Kitfox IV Anphib for Baker
Valley airport, a remote airport that was having an informal flyin. On
board I had camping gear and my 12 year old daughter. We had a good time
and returned the following day, fighting a 20 knot head wind most of the
way home. After fueling up in Brampton, near Toronto, we turned South
towards Brantford. Making the turn meant we would finally get a tailwind
component from the strong and steady wind. During this 40 minute leg of a
3.5 hr journey, and only a few minutes from our destination airport, we
experienced an incredible noise and vibration. It felt like the engine had
exploded. At the same instant I wittnessed a prop blade depart and lodge
itself in the port float. I pulled the throttle immediately and hit the
master and mags. I was just barley at the parimeter of the Brantford zone
at 1500' AGL, and after calming my daughter down I turned into the wind
looking for an ultralight strip I knew of. I did not even consider trying
for the airport, as I knew from experience that the Kitfox on floats was a
poor glider. Guaging the drift from the strong wind, I decided I could
not make the ultralight strip. I considered the river, but was afraid that
the plane would sink due to the damaged float. Instead I turned downwind
and continued to search for a suitable field. During this time the wind
had pushed me even closer to the airport, and I decided to try for a
runway. We were lucky, and came across the numbers with lots of speed,
making a dead stick cross wind landing. I landed with the gear down, and
the aircraft tracked fine despite the fact that the port nose wheel did not
lock in place. There was only one other aircraft on the field, as it was a
Sunday evening. I will always remember the look on the face of the pilot
and passenger of that Cessna as we glided past him onto the taxiway with a
prop blade sicking up vertically from the left float.
I pulled the aircraft from the taxiway to my hanger, noting that the engine
was sagging considerably, and that it easily moved up and down with each
bump in the taxiway. A couple of fellow pilots met me at my hanger, drawn
by the unusual propeller configuration. They wanted to remove the cowls
and check out the damage. I wanted to secure the plan and get my daughter
away, fearing we would remove the cowls and find the engine hanging by a
thread.
I returned to the field later to survey the damage. The two top tube
clusters on the engine mount had broken away completely, leaving only the
bottom two holding the engine to the airframe. In total, seven tubes had
been severed. There were rubber particals everywhere as parts of the
isolators had desintegrated. Both carbs had vibrated free of the engine,
being held by the fuel lines, throttle and carb cables. In retrospec, the
engine may have shut down itself down due to fuel starvation, rather than
due to my fast reflexes. I did not have safety cables attaching the engine
to the airframe. It was obvious we had come very close to losing the engine
completely in flight. I had beefed up the mount the previous year in
response to a service bulletin from Skystar. Thanks Skystar for posting
service bulletins on the web.
The exhaust canister was damaged. The junctions where the header pipes
enter the exhaust were cracked, and the exhaust pipe itself was ripped from
the canister. The oil tank, which sits on top of the engine, was dented and
cracked from pounding on the engine block. The port float was damaged
(Aerocet 1100 anphibs), with the blade puncturing the float, hitting the
pully assembly and cutting the cable. Surprisingly, the blade itself was
in very good condition. I knew Warp drive made a tough blade, but I never
would have believed it could take that level of abuse without breaking into
pieces.
Of course the NSI hub was damaged. One blade had departed cleanly from the
hub, with half of the cuff remaining in the hub and the remainder on the
end of the blade. The prop had less than 250 hours on it, having been
purchased and installed by the previous owner in the spring of 1998. I
had reported to NSI that there was in increase in greese being thrown from
the hub. The previous owner had put lots of greese in the hub when he
assembled it. NSI told me to remove the greese, and not to idle the engine
below 2100 rpm. I had split the hub and inspected it recently as part of
the annual, and did not observe any cracks. Then again, I was not looking
as closely as I would be now.
The Rotax 912S was removed and inspected by an engineer familiar with this
kind of engine. The gearbox was removed and NDT tested, and the crank was
dialed. Fortuanatley, it was determined that the engine was not damaged. A
slipper clutch was installed at the same time. The engine is also
relatively new, being installed shortly before the NSI prop was added.
I reported the incident to the Transportation Safety Board. Since there
was no damage to people or property, other than the plane, Transport Canada
did not investigate further. I took several photos with a digital camera,
and reported the problem to NSI both via email and telephone. The prop
assembly was then removed and sent to Cambridge Material Testing Labs. I
wanted to ensure its condition was examined and documented before I shipped
it to NSI, in case anything was lost or damaged in shipping. I then
shipped the prop back to NSI. They got it July 27.
NSI is still investigating, and have told me they will be contacting
customers running the 912S and Cap 140 combination once they have completed
their investigation. If you are running a CAP in flight adjustable prop,
especially with the Rotax 912S, I would suggest you check it for cracks.
Look at the groove that runs around the ourside of the cuff. It appears to
act as a stress riser, and seems to be where the crack originated. Check
the photos on my web site. The address is below. If you do not have safety
cables holding your engine to the airframe, I would recommend that you add
them. If you have the 912S, you should consider adding the slipper
clutch.
Considering all the possible scenarios, we were very lucky. I hope to be
flying on wheels before the end of the season, and hopefully back on floats
next year in time for Oshkosh.
Gary Walsh
C-GOOT
www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Tail wheel spring, was: Tail Wheel Shimmy |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jim Crowder <jimlc@att.net>
At 08:38 AM 8/18/2004, you wrote:
>Perhaps this is something that John McBean could add to his list of
>specialty items to have produced and to sell for Kitfoxes? John, how about
>it?
>Best Regards,
>Cliff
Robbie Grove indicated his reason for dropping the tail wheel was a lack of
volume sales. The number he flipped to me was a cost of $300 for a single
unit run as opposed to $70 for a run of 300 units. I am providing these
numbers from my failing memory. Also, numbers tossed out in a casual
conversation may not reflect the reality of true buy and sell negotiation
(An arms length transaction). I will become more concerned if I am unable
to obtain a satisfactory result by having my current springs re bent.
Jim Crowder
Message 14
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| Subject: | Electric Prop Failure |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rick" <turboflyer@comcast.net>
That is most disturbing. Really glad you and yours are ok. I fly the same
CAP140 and 72in Warp blades. We need to track this closely. I remember
others talking about the 2100rpm but don't remember it in the manual. Could
you be so kind as to post some close ups of the hub and blade end. Also, do
you think this should be considered a safety of flight issue. Self imposed
tear down and x-ray or some other suitable beyond visual inspection. I will
call Lance and get his input ASAP. I have had too many close calls already
and sure as you know what don't need the blade landing before me. By the way
good catch on the blade....geeeeez.
Rick N6
On June 26 I departed Brantford Ontario in my Kitfox IV Anphib for Baker
Valley airport, a remote airport that was having an informal flyin.
.....snip
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Tail wheel spring, was: Tail Wheel Shimmy |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud" <shoeless@barefootpilot.com>
Mark,
I tried one of Steve's springs and it is inappropriate for a model 5 or
later. It is a double leaf steel spring and it is several inches longer than
the original model 5 steel springs. Mine didn't last two weeks. The extra
length of the spring caused too much of a load for it to handle.
Steve just goes to a local automotive spring maker and has these made up. We
could do the same thing, if we could convince them to actually make the
things. I doubt that they would be too enthusiastic if it was known to them
that it would be used on an airplane.
Best Regards,
Cliff
> what about Steve Winder at Airdale - he has pretty much anything for an
Avid or Kitfox.
> www.airdale.com
>
> Michel,
> He was talking about the main tailwheel spring, the one to which your
> tailwheel attaches. This is a serious problem because now there is NO ONE
> making a spring to fit kitfoxes. Skystar supposedly has a prototype in
> testing (3 leaf steel) but last time I spoke with them it was not in
> production. Anyone know otherwise?
>
> I visited Univair here in Denver a few months ago with one of my old
springs
> to see if I could find one that is compatible. We went through their
entire
> wall of springs without finding a suitable match.
> Perhaps this is something that John McBean could add to his list of
> specialty items to have produced and to sell for Kitfoxes? John, how about
> it?
> Best Regards,
> Cliff
>
> >
> > > From: Fox5flyer [morid@northland.lib.mi.us]
> > > No more grove tailwheel springs? Oooooooh, this is bad news! Bummer...
> >
> > Excuse my ignorance but what's the difference between the Grove springs
> and those you can find here?
> >
> > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/lg/tailwheelaccessories.html
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Michel
> >
> > do not archive
> >
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Electric Prop Failure |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ron" <rliebmann@comcast.net>
Hi Gary,
I just went thru your pics of your Kitfox. It was a pleasure to view.
Thanks for posting it. And, my compliments on a superb bit of soaring you
did getting it down safely.
Ron N55KF
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Tail Wheel Shimmy and Return Fuel Line |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Jim,
A lot of good info for me here. Thanks!
As for return lines, I tried a fuel pressure
regulator, per NSI instructions, to stabilize my carb.
Many of these regulators come with return feeds and
they could address several problems, but....
Unfortunately during testing, it failed in the closed
position and would not allow any fuel to pass to the
carb at all. There is no failsafe structure to the
pressure reg, so I pulled it back off. Fortunately it
failed even before I ran the engine or flew it. So I
agree, solutions can be even bigger problems.
I have the SS low fuel system and the instructions
here in KY. Are you coming near Louisville? It might
be easier to help that way. Otherwise contact me off
list for whatever info you need.
I was lamenting not installing the Rocky Mountain
Engine Monitor since it would make testing much
easier. Now I don't feel so bad with my steam gauges.
:-) Thanks
Kurt S.
--- Jim Crowder <jimlc@att.net> wrote:
.........
> The return line is still only a thought, as I do not
> wish to add complexity without a determined need.
> As has been pointed out, even at best, a return
> line would introduce its own problems.
.........
> I also have some wiring problems I need to work
> through.
.........
> Also, the Skystar provided low fuel warning remains
> non working. I do not have the wiring instructions
> so that I can trouble shoot. Can anyone help me
> with this?
...........
> Numerous functions on the Rocky Mountain Engine
> Monitor do not work correctly....
...........
> Saturday, Beth and I are leaving for Kentucky for my
> 50th high school class reunion and will be away for
> about two weeks. Who would have thought?
>
> Jim Crowder
__________________________________
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Electric Prop Failure |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Gary,
Excellent handling of the situation, both in flight
and after. Glad you are all OK.
I have the NSI CAP prop too.
I wonder if all 3 failures were with the 912? Or...
With all the extra grease, I wonder if the prop was
properly assembled by the previous owner or NSI. The
grease seems like an attempt to overcome some extra
friction. It will be important to identify the
failure mode. Did you ever test the prop for the time
it takes to run full throw? I wonder if it was over
torqued at some time too to make up for a bad fit?
Sounds like the cuff was damaged somehow.
Big rule here: If something doesn't fit, don't force
it!
I agree that the Warp blades are strong. But I have
always had a general fear of my prop. Probably
because I put it together. ha ha Just me...
Thanks for all the info,
Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
--- kitfoxjunky <kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com> wrote:
> On June 26 I departed Brantford Ontario in my Kitfox
> IV Anphib for Baker
> Valley airport,
..........
> we experienced an incredible noise and vibration.
>
> Surprisingly, the blade itself was in very good
> condition. I knew Warp drive made a tough blade,
> but I never would have believed it could take that
> level of abuse without breaking into pieces.
>
> Of course the NSI hub was damaged. One blade had
> departed cleanly from the
> hub, with half of the cuff remaining in the hub and
> the remainder on the
> end of the blade.
> I had reported to NSI that there was in increase in
> greese being thrown from the hub. The previous owner
> had put lots of greese in the hub when he
> assembled it.
>
> The prop assembly was then removed and sent to
> Cambridge Material Testing Labs.
>
> NSI is still investigating, and have told me they
> will be contacting
> customers running the 912S and Cap 140 combination
> once they have completed
> their investigation.
> Look at the groove that runs around the outside of
> the cuff. It appears to act as a stress riser,
> and seems to be where the crack originated.
>
> Considering all the possible scenarios, we were very
> lucky.
>
> Gary Walsh
__________________________________
Message 19
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| Subject: | Electric Prop Failure |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Gary,
Also meant to say that it was a very good thing in the
end that your float caught the prop blade and you
could bring it back for study.
There were a lot of "right guy at the right place with
the right plane..." at work here.
Kurt S.
__________________________________
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Electric Prop Failure |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
Gary, I'm sorry to hear about your incident and I'm thankful that you were
able to get yourself and son on the ground without injury.
I've only heard of one other failure of an NSI and that was with a Lyc 0320
about 7 or 8 years ago.. Lance had specifically warned against using it on
the 0320 as the prop hub wasn't beefy enough to handle the tortional
vibrations of that direct drive engine. Shortly after he developed a
heavier hub (160?) to handle bigger engines.
This is the first I've heard of any problems with NSI props at Skystar.
This is the first time I've heard that Skystar ever used an NSI prop. Maybe
John can fill us in on the specifics of what he knows about this.
Darrel
> Gary,
>
> Excellent handling of the situation, both in flight
> and after. Glad you are all OK.
>
> I have the NSI CAP prop too.
>
> I wonder if all 3 failures were with the 912? Or...
>
> With all the extra grease, I wonder if the prop was
> properly assembled by the previous owner or NSI. The
> grease seems like an attempt to overcome some extra
> friction. It will be important to identify the
> failure mode. Did you ever test the prop for the time
> it takes to run full throw? I wonder if it was over
> torqued at some time too to make up for a bad fit?
>
> Sounds like the cuff was damaged somehow.
>
> Big rule here: If something doesn't fit, don't force
> it!
>
> I agree that the Warp blades are strong. But I have
> always had a general fear of my prop. Probably
> because I put it together. ha ha Just me...
>
> Thanks for all the info,
>
> Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
>
> --- kitfoxjunky <kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com> wrote:
>
> > On June 26 I departed Brantford Ontario in my Kitfox
> > IV Anphib for Baker
> > Valley airport,
> ..........
> > we experienced an incredible noise and vibration.
> >
> > Surprisingly, the blade itself was in very good
> > condition. I knew Warp drive made a tough blade,
> > but I never would have believed it could take that
> > level of abuse without breaking into pieces.
> >
> > Of course the NSI hub was damaged. One blade had
> > departed cleanly from the
> > hub, with half of the cuff remaining in the hub and
> > the remainder on the
> > end of the blade.
> > I had reported to NSI that there was in increase in
> > greese being thrown from the hub. The previous owner
>
> > had put lots of greese in the hub when he
> > assembled it.
> >
> > The prop assembly was then removed and sent to
> > Cambridge Material Testing Labs.
> >
> > NSI is still investigating, and have told me they
> > will be contacting
> > customers running the 912S and Cap 140 combination
> > once they have completed
> > their investigation.
>
> > Look at the groove that runs around the outside of
> > the cuff. It appears to act as a stress riser,
> > and seems to be where the crack originated.
> >
> > Considering all the possible scenarios, we were very
> > lucky.
> >
> > Gary Walsh
>
>
> __________________________________
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Electric Prop Failure |
03:25:38 PM
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxjunky" <kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com>
All good questions Kurt. Lance mentioned that one of the failures was on a
912S, but that it had a prop strike somewhere in its history. I asked the
previous owner why he put in so much greese, and he did not have any
specifc reason, other than he tought it was a good idea. I have some
photos of the hub before it was cleaned up, and there is not so much greese
that it would have caused a problem in itself.
Having a previous owner in the loop introduces all kinds of variables. He
was a friend, quite experienced with homebuilts in general, but I still
cannot say exactly for sure what he may or may not have done in the couple
of years he ran the setup. I had the electric motor fail last year. The
set screws had backed out, and the motor had rotated shorting the leads.
When I fixed that, I did a lot of testing, and the travel from course to
fine pitch was the same as before. I am pretty sure it was not binding. I
have been checking the hub during the annuals, and I know since I have had
it it has been torqued properly.
Gary Walsh
C-GOOT
www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox
kurt schrader
<smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.co To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
m> cc:
Sent by: Subject: Re: Kitfox-List:
Electric Prop Failure
owner-kitfox-list-server@ma
tronics.com
08/18/2004 01:43 PM
Please respond to
kitfox-list
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
<smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Gary,
Excellent handling of the situation, both in flight
and after. Glad you are all OK.
I have the NSI CAP prop too.
I wonder if all 3 failures were with the 912? Or...
With all the extra grease, I wonder if the prop was
properly assembled by the previous owner or NSI. The
grease seems like an attempt to overcome some extra
friction. It will be important to identify the
failure mode. Did you ever test the prop for the time
it takes to run full throw? I wonder if it was over
torqued at some time too to make up for a bad fit?
Sounds like the cuff was damaged somehow.
Big rule here: If something doesn't fit, don't force
it!
I agree that the Warp blades are strong. But I have
always had a general fear of my prop. Probably
because I put it together. ha ha Just me...
Thanks for all the info,
Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
--- kitfoxjunky <kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com> wrote:
> On June 26 I departed Brantford Ontario in my Kitfox
> IV Anphib for Baker
> Valley airport,
..........
> we experienced an incredible noise and vibration.
>
> Surprisingly, the blade itself was in very good
> condition. I knew Warp drive made a tough blade,
> but I never would have believed it could take that
> level of abuse without breaking into pieces.
>
> Of course the NSI hub was damaged. One blade had
> departed cleanly from the
> hub, with half of the cuff remaining in the hub and
> the remainder on the
> end of the blade.
> I had reported to NSI that there was in increase in
> greese being thrown from the hub. The previous owner
> had put lots of greese in the hub when he
> assembled it.
>
> The prop assembly was then removed and sent to
> Cambridge Material Testing Labs.
>
> NSI is still investigating, and have told me they
> will be contacting
> customers running the 912S and Cap 140 combination
> once they have completed
> their investigation.
> Look at the groove that runs around the outside of
> the cuff. It appears to act as a stress riser,
> and seems to be where the crack originated.
>
> Considering all the possible scenarios, we were very
> lucky.
>
> Gary Walsh
__________________________________
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Electronic or points |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen <torgemor@online.no>
Hi Bob,
Hmm. I'm sure got something to think about. :)
I tried to look up my sources, but havent had any success yet. Read about
it a long time ago, this was just a very few numbers of engines, in the
last series. They was produced late 88 - beginning of 89, just before the
582 entered the scenery. When reading this inf., got kind of a feeling
that those engines was a kind of pre. test engines. I've tried to get
"that" double (spark plug) head, but never had any success in this, as no
one had any idea about this engine.
Agree in that the Ducati CDI is a very fragile unit -and absolutely no
success concerning MTBF (minimum time between failure). But the basic
idea is good. :)
Thank for the inf. Bob.
Cheers
Torgeir.
On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:02:14 -0700, Bob Robertson
<aerocon@telusplanet.net> wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Robertson"
> <aerocon@telusplanet.net>
>
> Torgeir
> To the best of my knowledge, we never had any 532 CDI's delivered to
> N.America. We went directly from the points 532 to the CDI 582.
> (and was that ever a welcome thing!!!)
> Bob R
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Torgeir Mortensen" <torgemor@online.no>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Electronic or points
>
>
>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen
>> <torgemor@online.no>
>>
>> Hi Dave,
>>
>> Tried to answer this one earlier, but msg. disappeared somehow..
>>
>> The latest 532 was delivered with the CDI ignition (the first Rotax with
>> CDI?), the old models with a single spark plug on each cyl. is the one
>> with points (breakers).
>> So if your engine has two spark pug on each cyl. you have the electronic
>> coils.
>>
>> Hmm. As far as I'll remember, the electronic CDI will fail if turned
>> without loads (spark plugs), but the older will do without spark plugs.
>>
>> Torgeir.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:26:47 -0500, David Savener
>> <david_savener@msn.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "David Savener"
>> > <david_savener@msn.com>
>> >
>> > I cranked my 532 without grounding the plug wires during
>> > maintenance(Don't do that). I have no spark. I'm told I need a coil
>> > kit. Can't find a coil kit in catalogs.
>> >
>> > I emailed three Rotax suppliers. One emailed me asking whether I have
>> > electronic ignition or points.
>> >
>> > I have to pull my engine to remove the back plate to look at it. Is
>> > there an easier way to tell??
>> >
>> > My engine serial # is 3798800, if that helps!!
>> >
>> > Dave Savener
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
>>
>>
>
>
--
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| Subject: | Re: Electric Prop Failure |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: The Gaskills <kitfox@shaw.ca>
Great job! You can pride yourself on a superior bit of flying! How's the
daughter?
When I was her age, I had a forced landing, with my dad at the controls, in
our C180 on floats. Flying along, minding our own business, when the
windscreen was suddenly blanked out with oil. The moral of that story is,
we jumped into another plane and took right off again - aviation's version
of falling off a horse, I guess. It must have worked....
Wendy - Model II in BC
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Electric Prop Failure |
05:11:20 PM
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxjunky" <kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com>
Thanks for the praise, but we are not fooling anyone. We were very lucky
it decided to let go when and where it did. My daughter appears fine. She
begged to come along on a flight to Oshkosh shortly afterwards.
Gary Walsh
C-GOOT
www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox
The Gaskills
<kitfox@shaw.ca> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent by: cc:
owner-kitfox-list-server@ma Subject: Re: Kitfox-List:
Electric Prop Failure
tronics.com
08/18/2004 02:39 PM
Please respond to
kitfox-list
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: The Gaskills <kitfox@shaw.ca>
Great job! You can pride yourself on a superior bit of flying! How's the
daughter?
When I was her age, I had a forced landing, with my dad at the controls, in
our C180 on floats. Flying along, minding our own business, when the
windscreen was suddenly blanked out with oil. The moral of that story is,
we jumped into another plane and took right off again - aviation's version
of falling off a horse, I guess. It must have worked....
Wendy - Model II in BC
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Electric Prop Failure |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen <torgemor@online.no>
Hi Gary,
A real scaring story.
Glad that you and your daughter both are safe.
This kind of "incident" is one of the worst we can think about...
You'll need much LUCK, -then, VERY good airmanship.
A real good job Gary.
Cheers
Torgeir.
On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:02:39 -0400 10:02:28 AM, kitfoxjunky
<kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com> wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxjunky"
> <kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com>
>
> On June 26 I departed Brantford Ontario in my Kitfox IV Anphib for Baker
> Valley airport, a remote airport that was having an informal flyin. On
> board I had camping gear and my 12 year old daughter. We had a good
> time
--
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel level sighting |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: <rex@awarenest.com>
Hey Rex,
I think you may not be able to remove any discoloration
from Kreem. First of all the Kreem I've familiar with in
motorcyle tanks seemed to take on a brownish tint I assume
from a reaction to the additives in gasoline here in the
USA. I never tried to scrub it off though, I thought it
permeated the coating and was permanent.
Give it try and let us know.
Rex
Colorado
Message 27
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| Subject: | Electric Prop Failure |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Oakley" <joakley@ida.net>
One failure was in a lancair, it was mounted on the wrong engine for the
hub. the other I know of is a hub that sat outside and had ice in it that
froze and expanded the hub. Mine has a lot of movement in the blades that
has always scared me but done well for over 500 hours in a 912 ul.
that my story and I am sticking to it unless proved wrong.
John Oakley
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Torgeir
Mortensen
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Electric Prop Failure
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen <torgemor@online.no>
Hi Gary,
A real scaring story.
Glad that you and your daughter both are safe.
This kind of "incident" is one of the worst we can think about...
You'll need much LUCK, -then, VERY good airmanship.
A real good job Gary.
Cheers
Torgeir.
On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:02:39 -0400 10:02:28 AM, kitfoxjunky
<kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com> wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxjunky"
> <kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com>
>
> On June 26 I departed Brantford Ontario in my Kitfox IV Anphib for Baker
> Valley airport, a remote airport that was having an informal flyin. On
> board I had camping gear and my 12 year old daughter. We had a good
> time
--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel return line |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen <torgemor@online.no>
Hi Kerry,
Just read through this topics, and found it quite interesting.
I've a few answer to your inspector, tell him that the pump never can
build up any pressure in that feeder tank, the reason; The pumps source is
the feeder tank, and the fuel is pumped to that tank. The same amount into
the tank -as out from the tank. There will never be any pressure build up,
but a little flow around.
Now to the return line. You'll need a restrictor and a one way valve
pointing toward the feeder. All this is already stated by other list
members.
But one thing is not mentioned, the phenomena of evaporation. Evaporation
occur due to two factors, "critical" pressure and temperature of
evaporation for the fuel we are using.
So, sudden pressure drop or constantly low pressure combined with the
"rated" evaporation temperature is the key word.
Then, what happens at the bleeder return valve?
Well, suppose that you have a vapor lock in your engine, your el-fuel pump
is located in a position right under the feeder tank. Then start your
el-fuel pump, "cold" fuel will now flow from feeder, fill up both carb.
bowls, then start to bleed through the bleeder restrictor. As this fuel
flow go on, the temperature decrease, then evaporated fuel will start
condensing to fuel. Soon all sign of evaporation bubbles is gone. This is
why the bleeding system work, -even with low located feeder tanks.
But, if we like to clear for "plain" air bubbles -we need the up-hill by
pass or horizontal by-pass.
Horizontal by-pass is a system with carb. and feeder in same height, then
a plain by-pass line will transferee air bubbles to the feeder -and escape
through the normal vent lines.
Can also be uphill toward the carburetor from the low feeder tank, here
air bubbles escape through carburetor bowl vent.
Just to fill in.
Cheers
Torgeir.
On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 17:30:04 +0200, Kerry Skyring
<kerryskyring@hotmail.com> wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Kerry Skyring"
> <kerryskyring@hotmail.com>
>
> Turning to the list again for advice.
> Our technical inspector has cast doubt on the practice of routing the
> fuel
> return line from the carburettors (S5 912ULS) back to the header tank.
> His
> thinking is that the tank is constantly under pressure thus prohibiting
> the
> return function. If we can't convince him otherwise we have to route
> it to one of the wing tanks. A lot of trouble when we want to get this
> thing
> flying.
>
> Could listers comment?
> Thanks
> Kerry
>
>>
>>
>
>
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Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel return line |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com>
Bob:
If you use an electric fuel pump in a 2 stroke Rotax, it must be connected parallel
to the mikuni pump. If it is connected in-serie, the pressure of both pumps
will add, exceeding the required amount.
Jose
Bob Unternaehrer <shilohcom@c-magic.com> wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Unternaehrer"
I'm wondering why the system you describe would n't work on a 2 stroke 503
on my Challenger,,I'm on both list. I have had trouble a few times with
over flow of the carb bowls when using the facet pump in series with the
Bing 54's on the 503. On time I shot gas overboard for quite a while,,, i
think, and it was in the air, but the engine never faltered. Others said
the engine should have flooded and quit , but it didn't. Others say the
facet shouldn't put out enough pressure to flood the carbs. I accurately
checked the deadhead pressure to be under 4 psi, but have concluded that
when you put 4 psi on the input of the Mikuni engine pump you might over
pressurize the carbs. The carbs are very close to the tank on the
challenger and the bleed line could go back into the tank or back into the
suction line to the facet pump with a check valve. Cutting another hole in
the tank and getting a fitting installed and sealed might be a problem but I
bet other challenger owners have done it. I wanted the facet pump as a
backup, to the engine pump, since the tank is below the engine, but now I'm
afraid to use it regularly on takeoff and landings as I wanted to. Bob U.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul"
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel return line
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Paul
>
> Hi Jim,
> Its just good engineering to have a fuel return line. The header tank is
designed for that feature, but Skystar only shows its use with the FI IO240.
We owe the mature design to our buddy who was a NASA engineer. He is no
longer with us. His design uses a Facet like Jim Crowder uses and it had a
tee at each carb on his 912S. The return lines from each carb combine into a
3/8" return line and pass thru an orifice to the header tank via the port
provided. (The design refered to was more complex than described here with
redundant pumps, etc).
> The primary purpose for this design was not vapor lock but was to allow
complete filling of the 912S dual carbs before starting. The result was a
much smoother start of the engine since both sides of the engine would then
be fully fueled. This was very important when the 912S first came out due to
cracking and breakage of the engine mount caused by engine shake.
> Of course the secondary purpose of the design was the elimination of
vapor lock caused by heat soak of the carbs.
> In any event the system was passive and fuel always flowed back to the
header. Testing is required to size the small orifice in the return line to
assure that the engine gets adequate fuel with both the electric pump as
well as the engine driven pump.
> It is true that a return to a main tank is preferred but that design
would involve more complex plumbing and a reduction in reliability. The
return to the header is adequate for most engines and requires minimal
testing.
> And yes, the fuel pump and filter S/B located at the fuel system low
point under the seat with this proper design.
> If more info on the system is desired I am sure it is in the archives as
it was discussed to death long ago.
> Paul
> ==============
>
> At 9:57 PM -0700 8/16/04, jimshumaker wrote:
> >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jimshumaker"
> >
> >Bob
> >
> >I have been flying with my 912 UL for several years and this is the first
I
> >have heard of a vapor return line. I can not even concieve of one being
> >after the fuel pump. What am I missing?
> >
> >Jim Shumaker
>
> --
>
>
> ---
>
>
---
Jos M. Toro, P.E.
Computer Systems Validation Engineer
Eli-Lilly PR05
---------------------------------
Message 30
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| Subject: | To the best of my knowledge, we never had any 532 CDI's delivered |
to
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rex & Jan Shaw" <rexjan@bigpond.com>
To the best of my knowledge, we never had any 532 CDI's delivered to
N.America. We went directly from the points 532 to the CDI 582.
(and was that ever a welcome thing!!!)
Well yes it was re smooth power curve but I'm not as much a fan of the CDI's
re the no ignition until 300 RPM. How do you get that with a low battery out
in the bush. The dual ignition and CDI sparking power is good though.
Rex.
rexjan@bigpond.com
Message 31
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| Subject: | I'm wondering why the system you describe would n't work |
on a 2 stroke 503
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rex & Jan Shaw" <rexjan@bigpond.com>
Bob if you put two fuel pumps in series you will add the two pump pressures.
The pressure developed by a pump is in fact the difference between the inlet
and outlet.NOT outlet to atmosphere. So let's say the Mikuni pump develops
3 PSI and the Facet pump 4 PSI the total at the carb inlet valves will be
3 + 4 =7 PSI
As the Mikuni will only generate pressure with the motor running you could
just turn the electric pump on without the motor running and maximum
pressure should be say 4 PSI for instance as the figure we chose for the
purpose of illustration.
Back up pumps like that are plumbed in parallel. In other words split the
line with a "T" or "Y" piece as it goes into the pumps then do the same
after the pumps to bring both pump outlets together into one line. With two
carbs you will need to split this again to each carb. Think about it but you
will realise this doesn't mean you can't physically have the Mikuni pump on
the engine and the Facet say under the seat or whatever. In fact it's good
to have the Facet low and out of the heat.
You usually just turn the electric Facet pump on when you want to be sure
of no fuel supply problems like on take-off and climb-out including
go-arounds so you usually turn it on on final as well as preflight.
Now there is something more to this you need to think about. I'm not sure
about the Facet pump but if it or whatever second pump you choose will allow
back flow then you need a one way valve before or after that pump otherwise
when you turn it off the Mikuni can pump a lot or even all it's output back
through the second [Facet ] pump.
If just the Facet pump is on without the motor running and the carbs are
not flooding do not necessarilly assume they won't flood in flight because
the carb inlet valves won't be able to hold as much pressure under
vibration. Also the electric pump pressure may increase slightly also with
the motor running as voltage will be higher due to charging.
Bob I hope this helps.
Kind Regards,
Rex.
rexjan@bigpond.com
rexjan@bigpond.com
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| Subject: | Re: TCP, 912, avgas |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Ceashman@aol.com
Hello Clifford.
Thanks for writing about your experiences of using 100 LL in the Rotax 912
UL.
I kinda realize there are a lot of folks using this fuel.
But you know what it's like, lots of different stories like the valves
crudding up too soon and the plugs prematurely fouling. To the fiberglass fuel
tank
being perforated (It makes me feel like standing on the edge of a rocky cliff
top somewhere in Main, belching, and looking for the "purple pill" Nexium)
Anyway, I am ordering a bottle of TCP from John. It makes me feel a lot more
comfortable. I have only 75 hours on my motor. When I get a couple of hundred
more, I will also have gained more confidence and not be as influenced with
all the frightening gossip that comes from the media...no more Nexium!!
Again, Thank you Clifford for a candid view of reality.
Cheers. Eric. Classic IV, Atlanta
e-mail; ceashman@aol.com
Message 33
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Kirk Martenson" <kirk@mninter.net>
Hello:
To all those electrically minded people out there. I found a bad coil on my Rotax
912 UL. By bad I mean, I used the ohmmeter and got 5.93k ohms from the one
coil. The spec says it should be 6.1 to 6.7k ohms. I set the coil on a bench
and heated it with a heat gun. I then tested it and got 6.1k ohms to 6.3k
ohms but it fluctuates back and forth. Is the coil toast?
Kirk Martenson
Classic IV
Message 34
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| Subject: | Electric Prop Failure |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean@cableone.net>
I do not recall if SkyStar ever used the prop. I do not believe they have.
When I was working at SS I had two reports of blades departing the hub..
both on 912's
One of the customers brought his aircraft into SS on a trailer for repairs
and parts.
Blue Skies
John & Debra McBean
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Fox5flyer
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Electric Prop Failure
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
Gary, I'm sorry to hear about your incident and I'm thankful that you were
able to get yourself and son on the ground without injury.
I've only heard of one other failure of an NSI and that was with a Lyc 0320
about 7 or 8 years ago.. Lance had specifically warned against using it on
the 0320 as the prop hub wasn't beefy enough to handle the tortional
vibrations of that direct drive engine. Shortly after he developed a
heavier hub (160?) to handle bigger engines.
This is the first I've heard of any problems with NSI props at Skystar.
This is the first time I've heard that Skystar ever used an NSI prop. Maybe
John can fill us in on the specifics of what he knows about this.
Darrel
> Gary,
>
> Excellent handling of the situation, both in flight
> and after. Glad you are all OK.
>
> I have the NSI CAP prop too.
>
> I wonder if all 3 failures were with the 912? Or...
>
> With all the extra grease, I wonder if the prop was
> properly assembled by the previous owner or NSI. The
> grease seems like an attempt to overcome some extra
> friction. It will be important to identify the
> failure mode. Did you ever test the prop for the time
> it takes to run full throw? I wonder if it was over
> torqued at some time too to make up for a bad fit?
>
> Sounds like the cuff was damaged somehow.
>
> Big rule here: If something doesn't fit, don't force
> it!
>
> I agree that the Warp blades are strong. But I have
> always had a general fear of my prop. Probably
> because I put it together. ha ha Just me...
>
> Thanks for all the info,
>
> Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
>
> --- kitfoxjunky <kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com> wrote:
>
> > On June 26 I departed Brantford Ontario in my Kitfox
> > IV Anphib for Baker
> > Valley airport,
> ..........
> > we experienced an incredible noise and vibration.
> >
> > Surprisingly, the blade itself was in very good
> > condition. I knew Warp drive made a tough blade,
> > but I never would have believed it could take that
> > level of abuse without breaking into pieces.
> >
> > Of course the NSI hub was damaged. One blade had
> > departed cleanly from the
> > hub, with half of the cuff remaining in the hub and
> > the remainder on the
> > end of the blade.
> > I had reported to NSI that there was in increase in
> > greese being thrown from the hub. The previous owner
>
> > had put lots of greese in the hub when he
> > assembled it.
> >
> > The prop assembly was then removed and sent to
> > Cambridge Material Testing Labs.
> >
> > NSI is still investigating, and have told me they
> > will be contacting
> > customers running the 912S and Cap 140 combination
> > once they have completed
> > their investigation.
>
> > Look at the groove that runs around the outside of
> > the cuff. It appears to act as a stress riser,
> > and seems to be where the crack originated.
> >
> > Considering all the possible scenarios, we were very
> > lucky.
> >
> > Gary Walsh
>
>
> __________________________________
>
>
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| Subject: | Kitfox IV on floats |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Maurice Fraser <mfraser@gokenora.com>
Hi All
Can anyone tell me how a Kitfox IV 1200 with a 582 will perform on Zenair 1150
aluminum floats? I would like to know about payload and take off distances rate
of climb and cruise speed. If anyone can help me out with these questions or
any other information please let me know.
Thanks Maurice
Message 36
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jimshumaker" <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net>
Kirk
You are within the margin of error for the coil Resistance. The
fluctuationis most likely the connections or the leads. If the coils are
not faulted to ground then the restistance value is ok.
What are the symptoms?
Jim Shumaker
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kirk Martenson" <kirk@mninter.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: 912 UL
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Kirk Martenson" <kirk@mninter.net>
>
> Hello:
>
> To all those electrically minded people out there. I found a bad coil on
my Rotax 912 UL. By bad I mean, I used the ohmmeter and got 5.93k ohms from
the one coil. The spec says it should be 6.1 to 6.7k ohms. I set the coil
on a bench and heated it with a heat gun. I then tested it and got 6.1k
ohms to 6.3k ohms but it fluctuates back and forth. Is the coil toast?
>
> Kirk Martenson
> Classic IV
>
>
Message 37
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|
| Subject: | Re: TCP, was: sparkplugs, 912, avgas |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jim Crowder <jimlc@att.net>
At 05:48 AM 8/18/2004, Clifford Begnaud wrote:
>I know that it is best to use TCP with the 912 and 100LL, but you are not
>going to hurt your engine by using "some 100LL" without the TCP.
I just discussed this with Lance at NSI and for the NSI EA81, his advice is
to not use TCP, and to just make a max power takeoff occasionally. He says
it will burn the deposits off and the 100LL is not a problem.
Jim Crowder
Message 38
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| Subject: | Electric Prop Failure |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
John,
In what way do your blades move?
Mine was loose in pitch until I rebuilt it. All the
blades moved together, but you could twist them a good
bit by hand. Made it hard to set power when the rpm
jumped up or down by 400 rpm.
I know it is tight in the other ways because I hit my
head on it often enough trying to work around it in
tight quarters. :-(
One thing that does bother me a little is that the
prop hub moves a good bit vertically when the GB is
warm after a flight. In other words, I can grab a
blade tip and move it fore and aft and see much more
prop shaft (not blade) play than when cold. But the
GB doesn't leak, so it must be designed to do that?
Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
--- John Oakley <joakley@ida.net> wrote:
..........
> Mine has a lot of movement in the blades that
> has always scared me but done well for over 500
> hours in a 912 ul. that my story and I am sticking
> to it unless proved wrong.
>
> John Oakley
_______________________________
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Electric Prop Failure |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jim Crowder <jimlc@att.net>
At 12:52 PM 8/18/2004, Darrel wrote:
>I've only heard of one other failure of an NSI and that was with a Lyc 0320
>about 7 or 8 years ago.. Lance had specifically warned against using it on
>the 0320 as the prop hub wasn't beefy enough to handle the tortional
>vibrations of that direct drive engine. Shortly after he developed a
>heavier hub (160?) to handle bigger engines.
This is consistent with my recollection, although there could have been
more than one failure with Lycoming and Continental type engines before NSI
recommended the CAP not be used with those engines.
From NSI Technical Data: "The NSI propeller speed reduction used is one
of the reasons why your SUBER! engine runs and performs so smoothly. This
propeller speed reduction used spur gears for speed reduction. The output
module includes a special clutch to transmit the power from the spur gears
to the propeller shaft. The clutch does more than reduce the torsional
shock that the system experiences, it complete eliminates the production of
torsional vibration."
This is the reason the NSI EA81's propellers free wheel when not being
driven. Does anyone know of any CAP failures of this nature when used with
NSI's engines? Hearsay is of little use in such reports and often is not
even factual. The information Gary Walsh provides us is helpful.
I am only just aware that there has been a thread regarding a "slipper
clutch" and the 912S. Gary mentions installing one after the
incident. What is the purpose of the slipper clutch and could it serve a
function similar to NSI's reduction unit? I wish I had paid more attention
to the discussion regarding the slipper clutch. Could not having it have
been a factor in the failure?
Of course this has gotten my attention and I will certainly give mine a
closer inspection before N64026 flies again. I thank Gary for his very
factual and objective report.
Jim Crowder
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