---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 09/06/04: 44 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:26 AM - Re: S-6 Air Speeds (John Banes) 2. 04:51 AM - Re: Alberta my love (Gill Levesque) 3. 06:37 AM - Re: Kitfox Wings (Bob Unternaehrer) 4. 06:46 AM - 582 rate of climb (jareds) 5. 07:24 AM - Re: Kitfox Wings (Lowell Fitt) 6. 07:30 AM - Re: Side air outlets (Paul) 7. 07:30 AM - Re: Side air outlets (Paul) 8. 07:39 AM - Re: Anyone going to Greenville? (msg.03.05.04.23:58:57.16097 msg.03.12.04.23:58:55.10542 msg.04.01.04.23:58:44.3779 msg.05.03.04.23:58:54.20080 msg.05.31.04.23:59:08.12138 msg.09.06.04.04:26:28.18723 msg.09.06.04.04:51:30.13581 msg.09.06.04.06:37:34.17571 msg.09.06.04.06:46:33.28393 msg.09.06.04.07:24:59.4408 msg.09.06.04.07:30:35.13077 msg.09.06.04.07:30:35.13091 msg.09.06.04.07:39:45.32253 msg.09.06.04.07:42:02.5757 msg.09.06.04.07:47:30.21802 msg.09.06.04.07:58:25.15169 msg.09.06.04.08:10:35.7614 msg.09.06.04.08:12:33.15785 msg.09.06.04.08:15:59.24327 msg.09.06.04.08:25:24.12852 msg.09.06.04.08:29:55.19965 msg.09.06.04.08:55:38.12802 msg.09.06.04.09:44:18.24200 msg.09.06.04.10:01:15.18448 msg.09.06.04.10:11:26.6147 msg.09.06.04.10:14:22.11602 msg.09.06.04.10:56:33.2831 msg.09.06.04.11:28:18.16242 msg.09.06.04.11:30:20.21063 msg.09.06.04.11:54:37.9878 msg.09.06.04.12:23:02.10087 msg.09.06.04.13:31:46.31295 msg.09.06.04.13:35:10.4446 msg.09.06.04.13:38:48.13683 msg.09.06.04.13:48:09.28745 msg.09.06.04.13:56:37.20673 msg.09.06.04.14:38:30.15273 msg.09.06.04.16:12:04.24297 msg.09.06.04.16:31:28.19763 msg.09.06.04.16:44:54.3237 msg.09.06.04.18:06:23.24327 msg.09.06.04.18:37:02.28070 msg.09.06.04.18:47:22.12632 msg.09.06.04.18:51:59.25283 msg.09.06.04.19:51:19.24630 msg.09.06.04.20:28:09.23956 msg.09.06.04.20:58:55.3692 msg.09.06.04.22:28:38.26767 msg.09.06.04.22:42:31.15144 msg.12.04.03.23:59:58.12870 msg.12.06.03.23:58:57.10517 web_browse.day.0 web_browse.day.1 web_browse.day.2 web_browse.day.3 web_browse.day.4 web_browse.day.5 web_browse.day.6) 9. 07:42 AM - Re: 582 rate of climb (Lowell Fitt) 10. 07:47 AM - Re: Kitfox Wings (Jose M. Toro) 11. 07:58 AM - Re: Kitfox Wings (kurt schrader) 12. 08:10 AM - Re: Alberta my love (AlbertaIV@aol.com) 13. 08:12 AM - Re: 582 rate of climb (AlbertaIV@aol.com) 14. 08:15 AM - Re: Kitfox Wings (Jose M. Toro) 15. 08:25 AM - Re: 582 rate of climb (jareds) 16. 08:29 AM - Re: Kitfox Wings (kurt schrader) 17. 08:55 AM - Re: Kitfox Wings (Jose M. Toro) 18. 09:44 AM - Spar reenforcement attachment (KITFOXPILOT@att.net) 19. 10:01 AM - Re: 582 rate of climb (Michel Verheughe) 20. 10:11 AM - Kitfox flight (Joel Mapes) 21. 10:14 AM - News from Jabiru Norway (Michel Verheughe) 22. 10:56 AM - Re: News from Jabiru Norway (Steve Cooper) 23. 11:28 AM - Jab-fox WAS: News from Jabiru Norway (Michel Verheughe) 24. 11:30 AM - Re: 582 rate of climb (AlbertaIV@aol.com) 25. 11:54 AM - Terra installation and user manuals. (Torgeir Mortensen) 26. 12:23 PM - Re: Terra installation and user manuals. (Torgeir Mortensen) 27. 01:31 PM - Re: ivo adjustable prop on nsi engine? (Jim Crowder) 28. 01:35 PM - Re: Anyone going to Greenville? (Lynn Matteson) 29. 01:38 PM - Document about changes between Kitfox variants. (Torgeir Mortensen) 30. 01:48 PM - flaperon bracket mounting...IV (Lynn Matteson) 31. 01:56 PM - Re: Document about changes between Kitfox variants. (Kurt A. Schumacher) 32. 02:38 PM - Re: flaperon bracket mounting...IV (John King) 33. 04:12 PM - Re: flaperon bracket mounting...IV (Steve Zakreski) 34. 04:31 PM - Re: flaperon bracket mounting...IV (Lynn Matteson) 35. 04:44 PM - Pop rivet gun problem solved (Lynn Matteson) 36. 06:06 PM - Re: flaperon bracket mounting...IV (AlbertaIV@aol.com) 37. 06:37 PM - Re: flaperon bracket mounting...IV (Vic Jacko) 38. 06:47 PM - removing protective covering/film on flaperons (Lynn Matteson) 39. 06:51 PM - Re: Pop rivet gun problem solved (Steve Zakreski) 40. 07:51 PM - removing protective covering/film on flaperons paint thinner (Forfun3@aol.com) 41. 08:28 PM - Module vs coils (Jeffrey Puls) 42. 08:58 PM - Re: Kitfox flight (jdmcbean) 43. 10:28 PM - Re: Gauge error? High oil temps, continued. (kurt schrader) 44. 10:42 PM - Re: Spar reenforcement attachment (kurt schrader) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:26:28 AM PST US From: "John Banes" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: S-6 Air Speeds --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Banes" Hi John, The speeds are right where you said. Thanks!!! Hope you and Debra are continuing to enjoy flying your S-6. As for seeing mine I'll post pictures once the paint or should I say vinyl scheme is applied. That won't happen until after the 40 hours are flown off. The graphics company is 100 miles south. Are you planning a trip out east? I'm at the point of starting the final installation of the windshield. Then I can test fit the wings so that I can finish the doors, turtle deck and strut fairings. At least that is the plan for today. Thanks again, John Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:51:30 AM PST US From: Gill Levesque Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Alberta my love --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Gill Levesque Don, I have my rad lowered one inch and a four inch section in the middle blocked off! My temps are 160-170 at cruise! By the way, the left side is clean (no bugs) I would guess that the air flow goes down below the rad completely, on that side! I never checked but I don't think I have a thermostat! Gil Levesque C-IGVL Gary Algate wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Gary Algate" Don I don't understand why your temps are so hot. There are a couple of Kitfoxes in my area and all have the 582 and standard rads. In each case lowering the rad by 1-1/2" to 2" lowers the temps to the point where normal cruise is at 165 - 175 deg. The summer temps we see here are up to 90 degF Max. Could there be something else that is causing your problems' Gary >>>>>>>>>>>> I sat down in front of her prop and starred at the radiator for over an hour. I had already lowered the rad once to below the engine outlet air (about 4 inches). This will fix the problem but, I must say it quickly approaches ugly. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Still alive and flyin!!!! Gil --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:37:34 AM PST US From: "Bob Unternaehrer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Wings --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Unternaehrer" More HP without more control surface is not good. Mixing several designs could be hazardous to your health. Bob U. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jose M. Toro" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Wings > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" > > Rex: > > What I'm looking for is to be able to replace the 582 with a Jabiru 2200, be able to carry 20 gallons of gas as opposed to 9 gals, being able to replace the original landing gear with a grove, and still being able to carry a 170 pounds person. I estimate that combination will take a gross weight of 1050 pounds as opposed to 950 pounds for the KF II. > > I have had the opportunity to compare my KF II wings with the wings of a KF IV under construction. The most significant difference is that the new wings have more camber. I suppose that the additional camber is required to handle heavier loads. > > I don't care about the bigger rudder or the differential ailerons on the KF IV. What I'm considering is to replace the KF II wings with new KF IV wings, lift struts, jury struts and wingtips. I'm not considering to do any modification to the fuselage. I supposed it should not be that difficult to attach the model IV flaperons with the model II linkage. > > Do you think this will work? Do you think that the new wings will be able to carry 100 extra pounds? > > If anybody knows a good reason why I should not attempt this combination, this is an ideal time to speak. I haven't spent a cent on new goodies and am still alive!!! > > Jose > > Rex wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Rex > > Jose, > I am rebuilding a Model II wing on which I am upgrading the spars to > the Model IV spar design. The old Model II spar extrusions are not > available from skystar which is why you ask I suspect. My repair is not > the complete model IV wing design, as you asked, but I know that the > wing struts are not the same length due to a different spar attachment > location. If one were to use both Model IV wings and struts on a Model > II it may be possible to fit them without too much trouble, however I > have not researched this subject that far. The flaperon controls are > different and that could have an effect on fitment as well. > Please keep us informed if you learn information off this list. > Rex > Colorado, USA > > > Jose M. Toro wrote: > > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" > > > >Hi Guys: > > > >Has any of you converted a Kitfox II to Kitfox IV wings? Will this increase gross weight? Do you know what modifications where done to the earlier fuselages to increase gross weight? > > > >Jose > > > > > > > > > Jos M. Toro, P.E. > Computer Systems Validation Engineer > Eli-Lilly PR05 > > > --------------------------------- > > > --- > > --- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:46:33 AM PST US From: jareds Subject: Kitfox-List: 582 rate of climb --> Kitfox-List message posted by: jareds Any realistic estimates on what a model IV with a 582 rate of climb would be with full fuel (26 gal) and pilot on a 90 degree day? I'd like establish a climb and see how high i went in a minute?? Don't know what to shoot for but I'm not getting the climb i expected so want some bench marks. Jared ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:24:59 AM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Wings --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Jose, I think the different wing was mostly for a little speed increase - not sure, but there are many more structural changes to give the increased load capacity. I wouldn't do what you are planning. You might check on the archives - there have been numerous discussions on beefing up threes and maybe even twos to get the higher weight limits. In short it is more than the wings, though. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jose M. Toro" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Wings > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" > > Rex: > > What I'm looking for is to be able to replace the 582 with a Jabiru 2200, be able to carry 20 gallons of gas as opposed to 9 gals, being able to replace the original landing gear with a grove, and still being able to carry a 170 pounds person. I estimate that combination will take a gross weight of 1050 pounds as opposed to 950 pounds for the KF II. > > I have had the opportunity to compare my KF II wings with the wings of a KF IV under construction. The most significant difference is that the new wings have more camber. I suppose that the additional camber is required to handle heavier loads. > > I don't care about the bigger rudder or the differential ailerons on the KF IV. What I'm considering is to replace the KF II wings with new KF IV wings, lift struts, jury struts and wingtips. I'm not considering to do any modification to the fuselage. I supposed it should not be that difficult to attach the model IV flaperons with the model II linkage. > > Do you think this will work? Do you think that the new wings will be able to carry 100 extra pounds? > > If anybody knows a good reason why I should not attempt this combination, this is an ideal time to speak. I haven't spent a cent on new goodies and am still alive!!! > > Jose > > Rex wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Rex > > Jose, > I am rebuilding a Model II wing on which I am upgrading the spars to > the Model IV spar design. The old Model II spar extrusions are not > available from skystar which is why you ask I suspect. My repair is not > the complete model IV wing design, as you asked, but I know that the > wing struts are not the same length due to a different spar attachment > location. If one were to use both Model IV wings and struts on a Model > II it may be possible to fit them without too much trouble, however I > have not researched this subject that far. The flaperon controls are > different and that could have an effect on fitment as well. > Please keep us informed if you learn information off this list. > Rex > Colorado, USA > > > Jose M. Toro wrote: > > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" > > > >Hi Guys: > > > >Has any of you converted a Kitfox II to Kitfox IV wings? Will this increase gross weight? Do you know what modifications where done to the earlier fuselages to increase gross weight? > > > >Jose > > > > > > > > > Jos M. Toro, P.E. > Computer Systems Validation Engineer > Eli-Lilly PR05 > > > --------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:30:35 AM PST US From: Paul Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Side air outlets --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Paul Comment from an original KF lister, With regard to oil cooler & high oil temps. I designed and located the inlet/outlet for a cooler for a Lanciar with a tightly cowled IO360. The design had a NACA inlet and a large outlet duct. The cooler was tightly enclosed so no air could pass around it. Several of us stared at the cowl for a while and placed the inlet on the lower part but forward on the forward edge of the brow of the cowl. The results were excellent and the top speed was unchanged. Oil temps dropped significantly especially in climbout. That same design is also installed on an RV6 with a Ford V6 for the rad, but has not flown yet. All this was done by the owners using fiberglass in a couple of days. For details see "SportPlane Construction Techniques" by Bingelis starting on page 199. And his book "The Sportplane Builder" starting on page 185. On second thought maybe a review of all 4 of the Bingelis books would be prudent before cutting up the cowl or moving the rad or cooler. These books contain many solutions that have been proven in flying planes. Regards, Paul ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:30:35 AM PST US From: Paul Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Side air outlets --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Paul Comment from an original KF lister, All the communication about overheating brings to mind the thread many moons ago. It was about the ultimate solution designed by Acipiter. As I remember it was a redesign of the lower cowl and movement of the rad for a NSI turbo. Look in the archives to see if the details are still there. I am not a NSI person but I remember that the solution was very ingenious. I bet one could collect some ideas for the 582 as well. Regards, Paul ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:39:45 AM PST US From: "*" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Anyone going to Greenville? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "*" I have made it to Greenville for the last three years, it really is great. It's nice to have a get together that is not as busy as Oshkosh or Sun n' Fun. Lots of great people, with kids and dogs. There has been only a small showing of KF's there over the years, but lots of great float planes. Unfortunately I can't make it this year since I will be in Italy (poor me) but I do still have a reservation for the weekend at Greenville if you or anyone else needs it. I am planning on canceling it if no one needs it. It is impossible to get a room anywhere near there during that weekend, but I would like to help out a fellow KF'er. I have a Classic IV that I am rebuilding on floats. Last winters project, but it's going to be a gem when it's done. greg ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" Subject: Kitfox-List: Anyone going to Greenville? > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson > > Is anybody going to Greenville, Maine this next weekend? I'm going, and > hope to see some Kitfoxes up there. What are my chances? This'll be my > first trip up there. I'm picking up my buddy at Detroit Airport on > Thursday evening, coming in from California, and we're driving straight > through...almost. I sure hope there are some KF's there. > Lynn > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:42:02 AM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582 rate of climb --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Jared, the standard procedure is to do several timed climbs at different airspeeds to determining best rate and best angle. Start below your target altitude and establish a steady airspeed and start the stop watch at a predetermined altitude and time to the next 1000 ft. Then do the same thing over several times at different airspeeds, using the same altitudes for start and stop. On the ground, graph the altitude increase - ft. per second, against airspeed to get best rate and best angle. There are so many variations between airplanes that climb speed is not very well transferable between airplanes - prop pitch, weight, rigging, fairings, etc. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "jareds" Subject: Kitfox-List: 582 rate of climb > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: jareds > > Any realistic estimates on what a model IV with a 582 rate of climb > would be with full fuel (26 gal) and pilot on a 90 degree day? > I'd like establish a climb and see how high i went in a minute?? Don't > know what to shoot for but I'm not getting the climb i expected so want > some bench marks. > > Jared > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:47:30 AM PST US From: "Jose M. Toro" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Wings --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" Bob: Jabiru USA claims that the Jabiru 2200 is compatible with the Kitfox II. They even offer the engine mount. I have considered using the larger elevator that is offered as an accessory from Skystar. However, have not considered any king of modifications to the rudder or vertical stabilizer. I suppose it should not be a problem to use KF IV wings on a KF II as long as I don't attempt to exceed the current gross weight. However, if I'm not able to lift that additional 100 pounds, then the project would not be feasible (new wings, gas tanks, engine, and landing gear will all be slightly heavier than current parts). Since I'm not an aeronautical or structural engineer, my main concern on this project under analysis is to attempt to lift 100 extra pounds without modifying the fuselage. Jose Bob Unternaehrer wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Unternaehrer" More HP without more control surface is not good. Mixing several designs could be hazardous to your health. Bob U. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jose M. Toro" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Wings > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" > > Rex: > > What I'm looking for is to be able to replace the 582 with a Jabiru 2200, be able to carry 20 gallons of gas as opposed to 9 gals, being able to replace the original landing gear with a grove, and still being able to carry a 170 pounds person. I estimate that combination will take a gross weight of 1050 pounds as opposed to 950 pounds for the KF II. > > I have had the opportunity to compare my KF II wings with the wings of a KF IV under construction. The most significant difference is that the new wings have more camber. I suppose that the additional camber is required to handle heavier loads. > > I don't care about the bigger rudder or the differential ailerons on the KF IV. What I'm considering is to replace the KF II wings with new KF IV wings, lift struts, jury struts and wingtips. I'm not considering to do any modification to the fuselage. I supposed it should not be that difficult to attach the model IV flaperons with the model II linkage. > > Do you think this will work? Do you think that the new wings will be able to carry 100 extra pounds? > > If anybody knows a good reason why I should not attempt this combination, this is an ideal time to speak. I haven't spent a cent on new goodies and am still alive!!! > > Jose > > Rex wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Rex > > Jose, > I am rebuilding a Model II wing on which I am upgrading the spars to > the Model IV spar design. The old Model II spar extrusions are not > available from skystar which is why you ask I suspect. My repair is not > the complete model IV wing design, as you asked, but I know that the > wing struts are not the same length due to a different spar attachment > location. If one were to use both Model IV wings and struts on a Model > II it may be possible to fit them without too much trouble, however I > have not researched this subject that far. The flaperon controls are > different and that could have an effect on fitment as well. > Please keep us informed if you learn information off this list. > Rex > Colorado, USA > > > Jose M. Toro wrote: > > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" > > > >Hi Guys: > > > >Has any of you converted a Kitfox II to Kitfox IV wings? Will this increase gross weight? Do you know what modifications where done to the earlier fuselages to increase gross weight? > > > >Jose > > > > > > > > > Jos M. Toro, P.E. > Computer Systems Validation Engineer > Eli-Lilly PR05 > > > --------------------------------- > > > --- > > --- Jos M. Toro, P.E. Computer Systems Validation Engineer Eli-Lilly PR05 --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:58:25 AM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Wings --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Jose, I don't think you can safely do it. I believe the fuselage needs to be stronger too, especially where the wings and struts attach. Kurt S. S-5 --- "Jose M. Toro" wrote: ........... > Since I'm not an > aeronautical or structural engineer, my main concern > on this project under analysis is to attempt to lift > 100 extra pounds without modifying the fuselage. > > Jose __________________________________ http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:10:35 AM PST US From: AlbertaIV@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Alberta my love --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com In a message dated 9/6/04 4:52:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time, canpilot03@yahoo.ca writes: > I have my rad lowered one inch and a four inch section in the middle > blocked off! My temps are 160-170 at cruise! By the way, the left side is clean > (no bugs) I would guess that the air flow goes down below the rad completely, > on that side! I never checked but I don't think I have a thermostat! > Gil Levesque > C-IGVL > Gil, What temps do you go to on a 90 degree day during climb? Your 160-170 is what I get at cruise. Don Smythe DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:12:33 AM PST US From: AlbertaIV@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582 rate of climb --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com In a message dated 9/6/04 6:46:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jareds@verizon.net writes: > > Any realistic estimates on what a model IV with a 582 rate of climb > would be with full fuel (26 gal) and pilot on a 90 degree day? > I'd like establish a climb and see how high i went in a minute?? Don't > know what to shoot for but I'm not getting the climb i expected so want > some bench marks. > > Jared > How about between 700-900? Don Smythe DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:15:59 AM PST US From: "Jose M. Toro" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Wings --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" Kurt: It seems like identifying all the structural modfications that have been done to the KF II fuselage until it became KF IV would take more that just comparing the fuselages and taking measures. In addition, I would not be able to do structural analysis/tests (just a Computer Engineer). Obviously, Skystar won't provide the information for both liability and business $$$ reasons. This has been for me an interesting analysis exercise, but it sound like I will need to "kill" this option, and go for the original plan: Sell the KF II and build an Airdale's Avid Plus or a Kitfox IV (if I'm able to get a response from Skystar). Jose kurt schrader wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Jose, I don't think you can safely do it. I believe the fuselage needs to be stronger too, especially where the wings and struts attach. Kurt S. S-5 --- "Jose M. Toro" wrote: ........... > Since I'm not an > aeronautical or structural engineer, my main concern > on this project under analysis is to attempt to lift > 100 extra pounds without modifying the fuselage. > > Jose __________________________________ http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo Jos M. Toro, P.E. Computer Systems Validation Engineer Eli-Lilly PR05 --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:24 AM PST US From: jareds Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582 rate of climb --> Kitfox-List message posted by: jareds Thats the answer i was looking for. Unfortunately I'm not getting that based on prelim tests so maybe need to tweek the prop a bit even though i'm around 6600 in level full throttle now! AlbertaIV@aol.com wrote: >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com > >In a message dated 9/6/04 6:46:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time, >jareds@verizon.net writes: > > > > >>Any realistic estimates on what a model IV with a 582 rate of climb >>would be with full fuel (26 gal) and pilot on a 90 degree day? >>I'd like establish a climb and see how high i went in a minute?? Don't >>know what to shoot for but I'm not getting the climb i expected so want >>some bench marks. >> >>Jared >> >> >> > >How about between 700-900? >Don Smythe >DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:29:55 AM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Wings --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Yes Jose, I agree. The stronger wings could lift the weight if the weight was all in the wings. But you probably have to strengthen the carry thru tubes where the wings and struts attach. Then the landing gear and all the structure that carries the weight from where you add it to the gear and wings needs to be stronger too. All that adds weight that you have to account for again. It gets complex... Then there are the aeordynamic changes, like the bigger control surfaces to change the direction of all that weight in motion. It would be easier to just build/buy the plane that fits your needs than to have to modify one that much. Kurt S. S-5 --- "Jose M. Toro" wrote: > Kurt: > > It seems like identifying all the structural > modfications that have been done to the KF II > fuselage until it became KF IV would take more that > just comparing the fuselages and taking measures. > In addition, I would not be able to do structural > analysis/tests (just a Computer Engineer). > Obviously, Skystar won't provide the information for > both liability and business $$$ reasons. > > This has been for me an interesting analysis > exercise, but it sound like I will need to "kill" > this option, and go for the original plan: Sell the > KF II and build an Airdale's Avid Plus or a Kitfox > IV (if I'm able to get a response from Skystar). > > Jose ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:55:38 AM PST US From: "Jose M. Toro" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Wings --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" Kurt, Thanks for your feedback on this! Jose kurt schrader wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Yes Jose, I agree. The stronger wings could lift the weight if the weight was all in the wings. But you probably have to strengthen the carry thru tubes where the wings and struts attach. Then the landing gear and all the structure that carries the weight from where you add it to the gear and wings needs to be stronger too. All that adds weight that you have to account for again. It gets complex... Then there are the aeordynamic changes, like the bigger control surfaces to change the direction of all that weight in motion. It would be easier to just build/buy the plane that fits your needs than to have to modify one that much. Kurt S. S-5 --- "Jose M. Toro" wrote: > Kurt: > > It seems like identifying all the structural > modfications that have been done to the KF II > fuselage until it became KF IV would take more that > just comparing the fuselages and taking measures. > In addition, I would not be able to do structural > analysis/tests (just a Computer Engineer). > Obviously, Skystar won't provide the information for > both liability and business $$$ reasons. > > This has been for me an interesting analysis > exercise, but it sound like I will need to "kill" > this option, and go for the original plan: Sell the > KF II and build an Airdale's Avid Plus or a Kitfox > IV (if I'm able to get a response from Skystar). > > Jose Jos M. Toro, P.E. Computer Systems Validation Engineer Eli-Lilly PR05 --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:44:18 AM PST US From: KITFOXPILOT@att.net Subject: Kitfox-List: Spar reenforcement attachment --> Kitfox-List message posted by: KITFOXPILOT@att.net Yesterday a friend was learning how to extend and pin my wings. I thought I explained how the attachment slides over the holes for the pin placement. Well the top attachment got bent down. I bent it back up, and attached and pined the wing. I don't think this will be a problem, we flew the plane and everything was great! well except for the strong cross winds!! Ray Yesterday a friend was learning how to extend and pin my wings. I thought I explained how the attachment slides over the holes for the pin placement. Well the top attachment got bent down. I bent it back up, and attached and pined the wing. I don't think this will be a problem, we flew the plane and everything was great! well except for the strong cross winds!! Ray ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:01:15 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582 rate of climb --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe jareds wrote: > Any realistic estimates on what a model IV with a 582 rate of climb > would be with full fuel (26 gal) and pilot on a 90 degree day? Yesterday I flew at OAT 20 C (about 70 F) with my son and much fuel, which made us close to MTOW, and we climbed at about 60 MPH with between 800 and 1,200 fpm. The variation was due to some thermals that were developing that afternoon. I think it is quite good for that ol' 582. Much power in that little guy! Cheers, Michel ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:11:26 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox flight From: "Joel Mapes" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Joel Mapes" Fellow Kitfox builders, Are any of you located in Western Washington? If so, I have a proposition for you. I'm ready to cover my model 5 and have yet to fly in a Kitfox. Two trips to Caldwell and I have not been able to hook up with a pilot and plane at Skystar. How about we arrange for you to fly to Bremerton, I'll buy you lunch or dinner and pay for your fuel and you take me up in your Kitfox. Anyone interested? Joel Mapes Software Engineer OEM / OCA Team roxio The Digital Media Company* 10030 Silverdale Way NW, Ste 101 Silverdale, WA 98383 USA 360 613 9988 direct 360 613 4266 fax joel.mapes@roxio.com www.roxio.com NASDAQ:"ROXI" Featuring the Best-Selling CD-Recording Software in the World ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:14:22 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Kitfox-List: News from Jabiru Norway --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe Today I called Paul Garstad, who is the Scandinavian importer of the Jabiru and asked him a few questions. Darrel, you are right, that Jabiru on eBay is sold by Paul. But it is an older type, the one that has problem with cooling and Paul doesn't recommend it for a Kitfox that flies low and slow. The inlet/outlet ratio is not 1:2 but 1:4 for the Kitfox. Paul can have 1:2 for his Jabiru plane that flies at 120 knots but not my old model 3 that has 100 MPH as Vne. Also, the ratio of inlet/outlet is depending of the speed of the aircraft. Faster planes don't need that much outlet size. Mine does! About the cowling, Paul came with an idea: I buy a Jabiru aircraft front cowl and mould it to the Kitfox aft cowling. Apparently it would fit. What do you think, guys? My model 3 will then look like a smooth cowling Kitfox and the three inlets will fit exactly the Jabiru muffler and oil cooler inlet. ... Hum, I think I'll have to rename my plane ... Jabfox, then! :-) Cheers, Michel ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:56:33 AM PST US From: "Steve Cooper" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: News from Jabiru Norway --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper" I also morphed the Jabiru cowling onto my Avid Mark IV cowl. I went to a lot of effor to retain the clasic lines of the Mark IV Cowl. I had it painted my an Autobody shop for $75 after I finished the fiberglass work. Steve Avid Mark IV N919SC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Verheughe" Subject: Kitfox-List: News from Jabiru Norway > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe > > Today I called Paul Garstad, who is the Scandinavian importer of the Jabiru and > asked him a few questions. > > Darrel, you are right, that Jabiru on eBay is sold by Paul. But it is an older > type, the one that has problem with cooling and Paul doesn't recommend it for a > Kitfox that flies low and slow. > > The inlet/outlet ratio is not 1:2 but 1:4 for the Kitfox. Paul can have 1:2 for > his Jabiru plane that flies at 120 knots but not my old model 3 that has 100 > MPH as Vne. Also, the ratio of inlet/outlet is depending of the speed of the > aircraft. Faster planes don't need that much outlet size. Mine does! > > About the cowling, Paul came with an idea: I buy a Jabiru aircraft front cowl > and mould it to the Kitfox aft cowling. Apparently it would fit. What do you > think, guys? My model 3 will then look like a smooth cowling Kitfox and the > three inlets will fit exactly the Jabiru muffler and oil cooler inlet. > ... Hum, I think I'll have to rename my plane ... Jabfox, then! :-) > > Cheers, > Michel > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:28:18 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Kitfox-List: Jab-fox WAS: News from Jabiru Norway --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe Steve Cooper wrote: > I also morphed the Jabiru cowling onto my Avid Mark IV cowl. I went to a lot > of effor to retain the clasic lines of the Mark IV Cowl. I had it painted my > an Autobody shop for $75 after I finished the fiberglass work. Thanks, Steve. Glad to hear it has been done before. I am too shy to be a first-time experimenter :-) Something I'd like to ask you then, Paul (the Jabiru man) tells me that the engine mount doesn't have support for the cowling. Mine does on the existing installation. That is: the engine mount has two tubes extending all the way forward and that support the fore half-rounded cowl. How is it with you? Can the cowling be self-supporting from the windscreen all the way to the front? Cheers, Michel ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:30:20 AM PST US From: AlbertaIV@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582 rate of climb --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com In a message dated 9/6/04 8:27:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jareds@verizon.net writes: > > Thats the answer i was looking for. Unfortunately I'm not getting that > based on prelim tests so maybe need to tweek the prop a bit even though > i'm around 6600 in level full throttle now! > Go for 6800 in level full throttle. IMHO, don't adjust the prop for climb or cruise. Adjust it for 6800 level full throttle and accept everything else as is. Don Smythe DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:54:37 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Terra installation and user manuals. From: Torgeir Mortensen --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen Hi Folks, Here is a direct link to most installation and user manuals for Terra avionics. http://files.experimental.ch/Terra_by_Trimble/250DIM.PDF Torgeir. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:23:02 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Terra installation and user manuals. From: Torgeir Mortensen --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 20:55:34 +0200, Torgeir Mortensen wrote: The first link contained a pdf file, sorry for this, this new one will work. Hi Folks, Here is a direct link to most installation and user manuals for Terra avionics. http://files.experimental.ch/Terra_by_Trimble/ Torgeir. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:31:46 PM PST US From: Jim Crowder Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: ivo adjustable prop on nsi engine? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jim Crowder At 11:09 PM 9/3/2004, you wrote: >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jimmie Blackwell" > >Good prop, but good luck if you need some help. I have been trying for >months to help a friend get his prop angle indicator working. NSI has poor >customer service. Sorry to be negative but the truth. > >Jimmie At times they can be very hard to get hold of and other times not so hard, but I have also found that when you do get a hold of them, and you can if you are persistent, and if you don't vent anger at them, their service is very good when the chips are down. This has been true for me regarding three major items. I continue to be happy that I made the choice to go with NSI. This is not meant to say that there are not other good choices. The current difficulty comes from their closing for Oskosh and annual vacation time. Also, I understand Lance has since undergone serious knee replacement surgery. Jim Crowder ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 01:35:10 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Anyone going to Greenville? From: Lynn Matteson --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson Thanks for the offer, Greg, but my friend and I decided not to go after all. He's only here for 10 days, and traveling by motorhome would take up too much time, and we wouldn't need the reservations anyway. I've decided to spend the time that he's here getting his input on some building matters, and to possibly go to the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome.... no KF's, but fun just the same. Lynn do not archive On Monday, September 6, 2004, at 10:36 AM, * wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "*" > > I have made it to Greenville for the last three years, it really is > great. > It's nice to have a get together that is not as busy as Oshkosh or Sun > n' > Fun. Lots of great people, with kids and dogs. There has been only a > small > showing of KF's there over the years, but lots of great float planes. > Unfortunately I can't make it this year since I will be in Italy (poor > me) > but I do still have a reservation for the weekend at Greenville if you > or > anyone else needs it. I am planning on canceling it if no one needs > it. It > is impossible to get a room anywhere near there during that weekend, > but I > would like to help out a fellow KF'er. > > I have a Classic IV that I am rebuilding on floats. Last winters > project, > but it's going to be a gem when it's done. > > greg > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lynn Matteson" > To: > Subject: Kitfox-List: Anyone going to Greenville? > > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson >> >> Is anybody going to Greenville, Maine this next weekend? I'm going, >> and >> hope to see some Kitfoxes up there. What are my chances? This'll be my >> first trip up there. I'm picking up my buddy at Detroit Airport on >> Thursday evening, coming in from California, and we're driving >> straight >> through...almost. I sure hope there are some KF's there. >> Lynn >> >> > > > _- > ======================================================================= > _- > ======================================================================= > _- > ======================================================================= > _- > ======================================================================= > > > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 01:38:48 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Document about changes between Kitfox variants. From: Torgeir Mortensen --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen Hi Folks, Two three years back I found this document on the BSA-Suisse site. As I was searching for this info, I found the Terra manuals. Well, as the link I sent was direct to one of the files, Kurt Schumacher replayed with the correction. To make the story shorter, I asked Kurt about this doc - few minutes later I got it. Ok., here is the direct link: http://files.experimental.ch/typedossier/kitfox_3.pdf This document cover all the changes from a model II to a model III. Thank you very much Kurt. Enjoy. Torgeir. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 01:48:09 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: flaperon bracket mounting...IV From: Lynn Matteson --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson In dealing with the flaperon mounting brackets, the manual says to drill the four mounting holes (top and bottom), through the brackets and the capstrips, but to rivet them after covering. A note has been added to my manual saying "not to drill yet, or after covering, the holes may not line up" This I can understand, but if I wait until after covering, all the junk will get inside the wings during drilling. How have you folks handled this problem? I've thought of laying on a strip of covering, and a strip of finishing tape, top and bottom, to mock up the finished thickness, but it would still lack the 'tak and the 'brush thickness. Am I being too anal here, or is this not going to be a problem. Lynn ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 01:56:37 PM PST US From: "Kurt A. Schumacher" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Document about changes between Kitfox variants. --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Kurt A. Schumacher" Just a little clarification: This document referenced covers a bunch of required changes for Switzerland, for Avid and early Kitfox up to Model 4-1050, but as well the Australian Skyfox. Most of the changes made it to the Denney / Skystar series models over time. I would not say this is a complete list of differences! Another one (http://files.experimental.ch/typedossier/Kitfox_IV_1050_500kg.pdf) covers the upweighting of the 4-1050 lbs to 500 kg - if the changes from the previous document are included - by setting the markings on the ASI to max. cruising speed Von == Va == 69.5 Knots. -Kurt. EAS Webmaster Experimental Aviation of Switzerland -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Torgeir Mortensen Subject: Kitfox-List: Document about changes between Kitfox variants. --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen --> Hi Folks, Two three years back I found this document on the BSA-Suisse site. As I was searching for this info, I found the Terra manuals. Well, as the link I sent was direct to one of the files, Kurt Schumacher replayed with the correction. To make the story shorter, I asked Kurt about this doc - few minutes later I got it. Ok., here is the direct link: http://files.experimental.ch/typedossier/kitfox_3.pdf This document cover all the changes from a model II to a model III. Thank you very much Kurt. Enjoy. Torgeir. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 02:38:30 PM PST US From: John King Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: flaperon bracket mounting...IV --> Kitfox-List message posted by: John King Lynn, I did just what the manual recommended on both of my Kitfoxes and had no problems. You better drill before covering to make sure that the drill hole goes all the way through both the rib and the backing plate under the rib. Otherwise there is a chance that the drill bit will push down on the backing plate instead of drilling through it. Then the pop rivet will not position itself through the backing plate when inserted and squeezed. You will never see that when it is covered. You should install all of your flaperon brackets on the wing as well as the flaperons using Cleco fasteners before covering to make sure there is no binding and they are aligned properly. -- John King Warrenton, VA Lynn Matteson wrote: >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson > >In dealing with the flaperon mounting brackets, the manual says to >drill the four mounting holes (top and bottom), through the brackets >and the capstrips, but to rivet them after covering. A note has been >added to my manual saying "not to drill yet, or after covering, the >holes may not line up" This I can understand, but if I wait until >after covering, all the junk will get inside the wings during drilling. >How have you folks handled this problem? >I've thought of laying on a strip of covering, and a strip of finishing >tape, top and bottom, to mock up the finished thickness, but it would >still lack the 'tak and the 'brush thickness. Am I being too anal here, >or is this not going to be a problem. >Lynn > > > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 04:12:04 PM PST US From: Steve Zakreski Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: flaperon bracket mounting...IV --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Steve Zakreski -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John King Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: flaperon bracket mounting...IV --> Kitfox-List message posted by: John King Lynn, I did just what the manual recommended on both of my Kitfoxes and had no problems. You better drill before covering to make sure that the drill hole goes all the way through both the rib and the backing plate under the rib. Otherwise there is a chance that the drill bit will push down on the backing plate instead of drilling through it. Then the pop rivet will not position itself through the backing plate when inserted and squeezed. You will never see that when it is covered. You should install all of your flaperon brackets on the wing as well as the flaperons using Cleco fasteners before covering to make sure there is no binding and they are aligned properly. -- John King Warrenton, VA Lynn Matteson wrote: >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson > >In dealing with the flaperon mounting brackets, the manual says to >drill the four mounting holes (top and bottom), through the brackets >and the capstrips, but to rivet them after covering. A note has been >added to my manual saying "not to drill yet, or after covering, the >holes may not line up" This I can understand, but if I wait until >after covering, all the junk will get inside the wings during drilling. >How have you folks handled this problem? >I've thought of laying on a strip of covering, and a strip of finishing >tape, top and bottom, to mock up the finished thickness, but it would >still lack the 'tak and the 'brush thickness. Am I being too anal here, >or is this not going to be a problem. >Lynn > > > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 04:31:28 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: flaperon bracket mounting...IV From: Lynn Matteson --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson Thanks, John...I had envisioned the very scenario you just described...the drill bit pushing the backing strip away. I suppose the fabric is so thin as to not cause any problems, as you have experienced. Just for grins, I went out just now and miked the 2.8 Poly-fiber that I have and it read .005"...doubling that will only raise the bracket about .010" ( covering and finishing tape) which, as you say, probably won't cause problems when it comes time to attach. Thanks for setting my mind at ease...I had visions of trying to get a vacuum cleaner hose inside the wing to remove aluminum and wood chips...not a pretty sight. Lynn p.s. On a related question, my rivet gun seems to have too large a diameter head to get into that .240" space between the vertical portion of the bracket and the center of the rivet hole...any ideas? Any riveters on the market that will get into that space? On Monday, September 6, 2004, at 05:39 PM, John King wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: John King > > Lynn, > > I did just what the manual recommended on both of my Kitfoxes and had > no > problems. You better drill before covering to make sure that the drill > hole goes all the way through both the rib and the backing plate under > the rib. Otherwise there is a chance that the drill bit will push down > on the backing plate instead of drilling through it. Then the pop > rivet will not position itself through the backing plate when inserted > and squeezed. You will never see that when it is covered. > > You should install all of your flaperon brackets on the wing as well as > the flaperons using Cleco fasteners before covering to make sure there > is no binding and they are aligned properly. > > -- > John King > Warrenton, VA > > > Lynn Matteson wrote: > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson >> >> In dealing with the flaperon mounting brackets, the manual says to >> drill the four mounting holes (top and bottom), through the brackets >> and the capstrips, but to rivet them after covering. A note has been >> added to my manual saying "not to drill yet, or after covering, the >> holes may not line up" This I can understand, but if I wait until >> after covering, all the junk will get inside the wings during >> drilling. >> How have you folks handled this problem? >> I've thought of laying on a strip of covering, and a strip of >> finishing >> tape, top and bottom, to mock up the finished thickness, but it would >> still lack the 'tak and the 'brush thickness. Am I being too anal >> here, >> or is this not going to be a problem. >> Lynn >> >> >> >> > > > _- > ======================================================================= > _- > ======================================================================= > _- > ======================================================================= > _- > ======================================================================= > > > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 04:44:54 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Pop rivet gun problem solved From: Lynn Matteson --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson I was going to use my Black and Decker pop rivet gun to install rivets in the flaperon bracket, but it had too large a head on it... .700" in dia. But my old standby gun has a narrow head...about .420" , so it will do nicely. Sorry to have asked the question before exhausting the possibilities. Lynn ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 06:06:23 PM PST US From: AlbertaIV@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: flaperon bracket mounting...IV --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com In a message dated 9/6/04 1:48:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time, lynnmatt@jps.net writes: > and the capstrips, but to rivet them after covering. A note has been > added to my manual saying "not to drill yet, or after covering, the > holes may not line up" This I can understand Lynn, My Classic IV instruction had me drilling before the covering. As John K pointed out, the alum backing plates might push away during drilling. Mine did in a couple places. You might try using a clamp during drilling to keep that alum strips in place. After covering, I did have a little problem getting things lined up but nothing to worry about. You can always chase the holes again with a bit to help the fit and get any glue out of the pre-drilled holes. Don Smythe DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 06:37:02 PM PST US From: "Vic Jacko" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: flaperon bracket mounting...IV --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Vic Jacko" Lynn, Make a spacer about 3/8 inch long with a hole large enough for the pop rivet nail to pass through. This should provide the clearance you need. May take a few try's but it works. Vic ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: flaperon bracket mounting...IV > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson > > Thanks, John...I had envisioned the very scenario you just > described...the drill bit pushing the backing strip away. I suppose the > fabric is so thin as to not cause any problems, as you have > experienced. Just for grins, I went out just now and miked the 2.8 > Poly-fiber that I have and it read .005"...doubling that will only > raise the bracket about .010" ( covering and finishing tape) which, as > you say, probably won't cause problems when it comes time to attach. > Thanks for setting my mind at ease...I had visions of trying to get a > vacuum cleaner hose inside the wing to remove aluminum and wood > chips...not a pretty sight. > Lynn > p.s. On a related question, my rivet gun seems to have too large a > diameter head to get into that .240" space between the vertical portion > of the bracket and the center of the rivet hole...any ideas? Any > riveters on the market that will get into that space? > > On Monday, September 6, 2004, at 05:39 PM, John King wrote: > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: John King > > > > Lynn, > > > > I did just what the manual recommended on both of my Kitfoxes and had > > no > > problems. You better drill before covering to make sure that the drill > > hole goes all the way through both the rib and the backing plate under > > the rib. Otherwise there is a chance that the drill bit will push down > > on the backing plate instead of drilling through it. Then the pop > > rivet will not position itself through the backing plate when inserted > > and squeezed. You will never see that when it is covered. > > > > You should install all of your flaperon brackets on the wing as well as > > the flaperons using Cleco fasteners before covering to make sure there > > is no binding and they are aligned properly. > > > > -- > > John King > > Warrenton, VA > > > > > > Lynn Matteson wrote: > > > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson > >> > >> In dealing with the flaperon mounting brackets, the manual says to > >> drill the four mounting holes (top and bottom), through the brackets > >> and the capstrips, but to rivet them after covering. A note has been > >> added to my manual saying "not to drill yet, or after covering, the > >> holes may not line up" This I can understand, but if I wait until > >> after covering, all the junk will get inside the wings during > >> drilling. > >> How have you folks handled this problem? > >> I've thought of laying on a strip of covering, and a strip of > >> finishing > >> tape, top and bottom, to mock up the finished thickness, but it would > >> still lack the 'tak and the 'brush thickness. Am I being too anal > >> here, > >> or is this not going to be a problem. > >> Lynn > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > _- > > ======================================================================= > > _- > > ======================================================================= > > _- > > ======================================================================= > > _- > > ======================================================================= > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 06:47:22 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: removing protective covering/film on flaperons From: Lynn Matteson --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson My IV is 11 years old (I'm the 4th owner), and the protective covering on the flaperons is stuck fast, and only comes off in very small pieces. This is gonna take a LONG time to remove, unless I come up with a suitable solvent. I'll have to be very careful not to loosen the structural adhesive or the foam ribs inside. I tried to use a heat gun...very carefully....but not much luck, as it just puckers the covering/film.HELP!! Lynn ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 06:51:59 PM PST US From: Steve Zakreski Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Pop rivet gun problem solved --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Steve Zakreski Lynn If you do predrill the rivet holes prior to covering, make sure you number all the brackets indicating their position on the wing. SteveZ Calgary -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson Subject: Kitfox-List: Pop rivet gun problem solved --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson I was going to use my Black and Decker pop rivet gun to install rivets in the flaperon bracket, but it had too large a head on it... .700" in dia. But my old standby gun has a narrow head...about .420" , so it will do nicely. Sorry to have asked the question before exhausting the possibilities. Lynn ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 07:51:19 PM PST US From: Forfun3@aol.com Subject: Kitfox-List: removing protective covering/film on flaperons paint thinner --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Forfun3@aol.com hello paint thinner on an old towel layed on soak over night works great. Ralph ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 08:28:09 PM PST US From: "Jeffrey Puls" Subject: Kitfox-List: Module vs coils --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Puls" My 912UL is acting up. This isn't making sense. When checking my circuits A and B on run up my circuit A doesn't do anything. When I check circuit B the engine starts to quit, then runs, starts to quit, and then runs. If I shut circuit A off, B runs up fine. I have a sneaky suspicion that it is either my coils or modules. I just put in new plugs and bypassed my ignition key. It's OK. Any ideas? Jeff Classic IV Jeffrey Puls pulsair@mindspring.com Why Wait? Move to EarthLink. ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 08:58:55 PM PST US From: "jdmcbean" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Kitfox flight --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jdmcbean" Joel, Give me a shout... Be more then happy to take you up. Not sure when I'll get up to Washington.. but if you get this way lets go. Heck... come on down we have a spare room.. Blue Skies John & Debra McBean "The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground" -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Joel Mapes Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox flight --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Joel Mapes" Fellow Kitfox builders, Are any of you located in Western Washington? If so, I have a proposition for you. I'm ready to cover my model 5 and have yet to fly in a Kitfox. Two trips to Caldwell and I have not been able to hook up with a pilot and plane at Skystar. How about we arrange for you to fly to Bremerton, I'll buy you lunch or dinner and pay for your fuel and you take me up in your Kitfox. Anyone interested? Joel Mapes Software Engineer OEM / OCA Team roxio The Digital Media Company* 10030 Silverdale Way NW, Ste 101 Silverdale, WA 98383 USA 360 613 9988 direct 360 613 4266 fax joel.mapes@roxio.com www.roxio.com NASDAQ:"ROXI" Featuring the Best-Selling CD-Recording Software in the World ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 10:28:38 PM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Gauge error? High oil temps, continued. --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader To Don S. and the list, Maybe it is time to boil some water? I'll take bets on the outcome. Today instead of changing airflows or cutting my cowl, I tried another test. First the symptoms: - One gauge reads both GB and engine oil temps thru a switch. - When power is applied, this gauge reades 135 degrees F. I do not live in Death Valley. - In flight, both the engine and GB oil temps read high. - When more cooling airflow was applied on the last flight, there was no improvement. - Last year I did a cowl off engine run and used my IR heat gun aimed at the P/U point to check the gauge and it was a near match. This is why I assumed the gauge was accurate, even though it came high off the peg on powerup. Well today I mounted the outdoor P/U from a thermometer on the top of the G/B. The thermometer reads to 155 degrees, so I could confirm up to that point. The engine oil temp goes too high for the thermometer, so I could only check the GB. I figured the top would read higher than the bottom where the gauge P/U is mounted. However, the P/U reads oil temp internally, whereas the thermometer P/U only reads external case temp. Here are my readings from a 1/2 hr flight: Cockpit 185 190 200 Thermometer 138 145 155 The cockpit gauge was consistantly about 45 degrees high. After shutdown, the thermometer went off scale high, so I couldn't take any additional readings of value. I think I better boil some water tomorrow and check this gauge and sender for sure. Don S, you might want to do the same before you carve up your cowl. Maybe one of us will be lucky and find out it only cost an oil change and a new gauge instead of major alterations. Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo _______________________________ Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 10:42:31 PM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Spar reenforcement attachment --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Ouch! That is a bad place to bend Ray. How much did it get bent? I would worry that something like that would have a short future after being bent much at all. If I understand correctly, you are talking about a part that is in compression in flight. At least that part is good. But from what you described, I wouldn't trust it until it was inspected for micro-damage. (my word) You may need to take off the doublers and attach longer ones a good bit past where the bend occured. That is likely to mess with some fabric. Or.... Anyone know if that cuff attachment reinforcement is still available? BlueSky of somebody? That would be a great, strong fix. Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo --- KITFOXPILOT@att.net wrote: > Yesterday a friend was learning how to extend and > pin my wings. I thought I explained how the > attachment slides over the holes for the pin > placement. Well the top attachment got bent down. > I bent it back up, and attached and pined the wing. > I don't think this will be a problem, we flew the > plane and everything was great! well except for the > strong cross winds!! > > Ray __________________________________