Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:08 AM - SV: Skis (Michel Verheughe)
2. 03:53 AM - Remove (Fox5flyer)
3. 04:27 AM - Re: More on the Jabiru (Mike Chaney)
4. 05:10 AM - Re: Newbie (Clem Nichols)
5. 05:46 AM - Re: Sonex- Low/Slow Kitfox (Ray Kurian)
6. 06:28 AM - Sonex- Low/Slow Kitfox (Harris, Robert)
7. 06:36 AM - Joe Oakley are you out there? ()
8. 06:47 AM - Sonex? Re: N2BH IS FLYING! (Harris, Robert)
9. 06:51 AM - Re: TCP in 582 with AV-2 CPS (Harris, Robert)
10. 07:19 AM - Re: Cure for 912S Carbs Shaking Off? (kitfoxjunky)
11. 07:32 AM - Re: Newbie (jdmcbean)
12. 08:09 AM - Re: More on the Jabiru (Jose M. Toro)
13. 08:19 AM - Re: Newbie (Randy Daughenbaugh)
14. 08:28 AM - Parts/Supplies for sale (Mdkitfox@aol.com)
15. 08:32 AM - Re: More on the Jabiru (Lowell Fitt)
16. 08:39 AM - Re: VG's - first flight test FYI (Land Shorter)
17. 08:59 AM - Speedster elevator -- Lowell (Ted Palamarek)
18. 09:06 AM - Re: Sonex- Low/Slow Kitfox (Bruce Harrington)
19. 09:10 AM - Re: Sonex- Low/Slow Kitfox (Bruce Harrington)
20. 09:15 AM - Re: 582 cruise RPM (Bruce Harrington)
21. 09:17 AM - Re: Sonex? Re: N2BH IS FLYING! (Bruce Harrington)
22. 09:26 AM - Re: 582 cruise RPM (Gary Algate)
23. 10:21 AM - Re: Cure for 912S Carbs Shaking Off? (Grant Fluent)
24. 10:37 AM - Thanks Bruce and others. (Harris, Robert)
25. 10:59 AM - Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing? (Harris, Robert)
26. 11:25 AM - Re: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing? (Mike Chaney)
27. 11:53 AM - Re: More on the Jabiru (Jose M. Toro)
28. 12:19 PM - Re: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing? (Dee Young)
29. 02:11 PM - Re: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing? (Harris, Robert)
30. 02:30 PM - Re: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing? (Dee Young)
31. 02:33 PM - Re: VG's - Third flight test FYI (kurt schrader)
32. 02:34 PM - Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing? (Harris, Robert)
33. 02:49 PM - Re: Cure for 912S Carbs Shaking Off? (Leach Family)
34. 02:50 PM - Re: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing? (Rick)
35. 02:54 PM - How to Change to Daily Digest (Roger L)
36. 02:58 PM - Re: Cure for 912S Carbs Shaking Off? (Rick)
37. 03:01 PM - SV: Kitfox crash (Michael Gibbs)
38. 03:07 PM - Re: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing? (Torgeir Mortensen)
39. 03:11 PM - Re: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing? (Rick)
40. 03:29 PM - Re: Sonex- Low/Slow Kitfox (Clem Nichols)
41. 03:46 PM - Re: Joe Oakley are you out there? (John Oakley)
42. 04:31 PM - Re: Classic IV - Problem with 912 Oil Tank (Torgeir Mortensen)
43. 04:45 PM - Re: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing? (David Savener)
44. 05:32 PM - Re: Speedster elevator -- Lowell (Lowell Fitt)
45. 05:43 PM - Re: Parts/Supplies for sale (Robert Toth)
46. 06:19 PM - A lesson from a crow (Ben Baltrusaitis)
47. 06:33 PM - Re: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing? (Jerry Liles)
48. 06:51 PM - Re: VG's - Third flight test FYI (Randy Daughenbaugh)
49. 06:53 PM - Re: A lesson from a crow (Randy Daughenbaugh)
50. 07:35 PM - Re: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing? (Rick)
51. 07:55 PM - Re: Pre-paint finish. Careful with the kerosene (Ceashman@aol.com)
52. 08:11 PM - Re: Newbie (Brian Peck)
53. 08:21 PM - Re: Pre-paint finish. Careful with the kerosene (Dee Young)
54. 10:04 PM - Re: VG's - Third flight test FYI (kurt schrader)
55. 10:06 PM - Re: Joe Oakley are you out there? (kurt schrader)
56. 10:17 PM - Re: VG's - first flight test FYI (kurt schrader)
57. 10:55 PM - Re: Speedster elevator -- Lowell (Lowell Fitt)
58. 11:05 PM - Re: Joe Oakley are you out there? (Lowell Fitt)
Message 1
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
> From: Pete Gow [PGow@chartermi.net]
> Hi List, Does anyone know where I can buy or get plans for penetration skis for
my
> kitfox-IV with balloon tires? Thanks Pete
Pete, these are the skis I made last year for my model 3:
http://home.online.no/~michel/ski/
I was very pleased with them and I look forward to this winter to fly them again.
I think I still have the scaled drawing I made for them. Please contact me privately
if you are interested.
Cheers,
Michel
Message 2
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
Kirby, you can remove yourself from the list. Just look at the bottom of
the message for the link.
Darrel Morisse
List Administrator
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kirby Cramer" <kitfox@mcn.org>
Subject: Kitfox-List: RE: REMOVE
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Kirby Cramer" <kitfox@mcn.org>
>
>
> Kirby Cramer
> Commercial Broker Associate & Realtor
> Prudential California Realty
> Bonsall, California
> 760-505-3173 cell
> 760-454-4567 fax
> Kirby@PruSD.com
Message 3
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| Subject: | More on the Jabiru |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Mike Chaney <mdps_mc@SWOCA.NET>
My cruse increased from the mid 80's mph to the low 90's when I switched
from a 582 to the Jabiru 2200.
Mike Chaney
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Liles
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: More on the Jabiru
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jerry Liles <wliles@bayou.com>
Jose,
I think you'll get plenty of speed without major modifications to your
airplane. Just a few simple fairings at the wing and fuselage attach
points for the landing gear and lift struts will help, as will wheel
pants but even that is probably not a necessity. Raking the windshield
is a lot of work and I don't believe at all needed. There are too many
Mod IIs flying perfectly satisfactoraly without major surgery for me to
believe it is necessary. Also remember all modifications tend to add
weight and Weight is the enemy!
My 2 cents.
Jerry Liles
Jose M. Toro wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com>
>
>Jerry:
>
>It looks like, if I want to try the Jabiru, I will need to "byte the
bullet". If I don't get an appropriate speed with the Jabiru and the
current configuration, I will need to do some modifications to reduce drag.
The major of the modification could be to use short, speedster wings.
Another suggestion I received was to increase the slant of the windshield,
like in the Kitfox IV. I could also use wheelpants.
>
>Jose
>
>Jerry Liles <wliles@bayou.com> wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jerry Liles
>
>Jose, then I suspect you should do just fine with a Jabiru 2200.
>
>Jerry Liles
>
>Jose M. Toro wrote:
>
>
Message 4
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clem Nichols" <cnichols@scrtc.com>
Kurt:
I think the key phrase here is "your plane that you built". I don't think
there's anyway you could purchase an already-built Model V certified at 1500
pounds gross, for example, and manage to get it changed to 1320 pounds.
That's the point I was trying to make to the potential buyer of a Model IV
vs a Model V
Clem Nichols
----- Original Message -----
From: "kurt schrader" <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Newbie
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
> <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
>
> When I went to the FAA office to warm them up to doing
> my inspection, I told them that I wanted it for VFR,
> day/night, land and water. The FAA rep asked what
> weight I was going to certify it for, considering
> floats. I said SS uses 1550 and I wanted to go to
> 1650. He immediately and strongly recommended I go to
> 1750! (I thought he was going to hold me to SS's
> limits.)
>
> After the shock I learned that he meant that if I
> certify, test and insure it for the MAX weight I would
> ever use, I was protected. But if I flew one lb over
> any lower weight, I was not protected.
>
> Likewise, you should be able to certify YOUR plane
> that you built for the weight you want it to be. If
> you like 1320, do that. Just never get caught over
> that weight.
>
> Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
>
> --- jdmcbean <jdmcbean@cableone.net> wrote:
>
>> Interesting...... I have read the same thing...
>> I'll still bet it can be done.....
>> but one needs to be familiar with the
>> regulations outside of the
>> LSA rule.
>>
>> Blue Skies
>> John & Debra McBean
>> "The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
>
>
> __________________________________
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Sonex- Low/Slow Kitfox |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ray Kurian" <raykurian@earthlink.net>
Robert,
You can go to http://www.sonex-ltd.com/order_sonex_apparel.html and you'll
see a DVD offered call "Right Seat with Tony Spicer" With a video camera in
the right seat, he takes you through the flying characteristics of the
Sonex, both high speed and slow flight. Might help with your decision.
Ray Kurian
raykurian@earthlink.net
KitFox Model I project for sale.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Harris, Robert" <Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Sonex- Low/Slow Kitfox
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert"
<Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
>
>
> Hi Bruce and others,
>
> Do you miss your Kitfox? Sometimes I want to go faster and think about
> buying a Sonex, Pulsar etc but I wonder if I'll miss the barnstorm flying
I
> do in my KFII. Any comments on this would be appreciated.
>
> Robert
> KFII San Diego
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce
> Harrington
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: N2BH IS FLYING!
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Harrington" <aerowood@mcsi.net>
>
> Hi Randy,
>
> You may be thinking of my N194KF, Old Orange, participant at 6 SkyStar
> fly-ins.
>
> Cheers, bh
> ex-N194KF, 582ed, 800+ hrs
> N321SX, Jab 3300ed Sonex, 95.7 hrs
>
> > Just a question: Is N2BH orange?
> >
> > Or do I have it mixed up with another Fox?
> >
> > Randy
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Sonex- Low/Slow Kitfox |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert" <Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
Hi Bruce and others,
Do you miss your Kitfox? Sometimes I want to go faster and think about
buying a Sonex, Pulsar etc but I wonder if I'll miss the barnstorm flying I
do in my KFII. Any comments on this would be appreciated.
Robert
Robert, I have a friend who flies a Long Easy and it flies around 130 which
is fast enough that he is unable to enjoy his time in the air as much as he
would like. He crosses the fence at 95mph and eats up lots of runway on
landing. He is considering stepping down to a low slow flight just so he can
enjoy it more. That is his thoughts on the matter. Thought that might
interest you.
Dee Young
Model II
Thanks Dee --Robert
Message 7
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| Subject: | Joe Oakley are you out there? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: <av8rps@tznet.com>
I've tried to contact Joe Oakley at joakley@ida.net, but get a error and
returned mail.
Are you out there Joe?
Paul Seehafer
Wisconsin
Message 8
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert" <Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
Hi Bruce and others,
Do you miss your Kitfox? Sometimes I want to go faster and think about
getting a plane like a Sonex, Pulsar etc but I wonder if I'll miss the low
and slow flying I do in my KFII. Can you please comment on this?
Robert
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce
Harrington
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: N2BH IS FLYING!
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Harrington" <aerowood@mcsi.net>
Hi Randy,
You may be thinking of my N194KF, Old Orange, participant at 6 SkyStar
fly-ins.
Cheers, bh
ex-N194KF, 582ed, 800+ hrs
N321SX, Jab 3300ed Sonex, 95.7 hrs
> Just a question: Is N2BH orange?
>
> Or do I have it mixed up with another Fox?
>
> Randy
Message 9
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| Subject: | TCP in 582 with AV-2 CPS |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert" <Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
Thanks John & Debra.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jdmcbean
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: TCP in 582 with AV-2 CPS
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean@cableone.net>
Robert,
Regarding the TCP here was the response that I got....
The real solution to this is to know what is causing any fouling of the
plugs or cylinder head.
Two strokes either use oil mixed with the fuel, or use oil injection to
provide lubrication, so if the oil is causing the deposits then TCP will do
nothing to help and if fact may make them worse.
If the deposits are caused by lead, then TCP will help. Auto gas users
should not use TCP.
A cautious approach for someone using leaded fuel might help, if an owner
was willing to experiment. The first step is to look at the plugs, if the
center electrode or body is black and sooty, forget the TCP. If they are
tan in color it might be worth a try.
Blue Skies
John & Debra McBean
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Harris, Robert
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: TCP in 582 with AV-2 CPS
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert"
<Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
Thanks John.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jdmcbean
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: TCP in 582 with AV-2 CPS
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean@cableone.net>
Robert,
I will do some checking.. but I have been told not to use TCP in 2
strokes.
Never did get a good reason....
Blue Skies
John & Debra McBean
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Harris, Robert
Subject: Kitfox-List: TCP in 582 with AV-2 CPS
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert"
<Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
John McBean and others,
Can TCP be used with AV-2? Does AV-2 already have a lead scavenger built
into it?(AV-2 is two cycle oil from California Power supply which is
designed to prevent Carbon build up.) I only use 100LL in my Rotax 582 and
want to minimize the carbon.
Robert
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jdmcbean
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: sparkplugs, 912, avgas
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean@cableone.net>
John,
It is a 16 oz container and one uses 1/2 oz per 10 gallons. The
container
has a measuring cup on the side.. loosen the cap over the measuring cup and
give the bottle a squeeze until you have the amount you want.
Blue Skies
John & Debra McBean
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John E. King
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: sparkplugs, 912, avgas
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John E. King " <kingjohn@erols.com>
John,
If you do not use a syringe to dispense the TCP, how do you know how
much to use at a filling? What size of container is used for the
$19.50 container?
--
John King
Warrenton, VA
jdmcbean wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean@cableone.net>
>
>I am a distributor for Decalin TCP. It is a competitior to Alcor but much
>safer, can be carried in the cockpit and is easy to dispense... Syringe not
>needed. If you are burning 100LL you really do want to use a Lead
Scavenger.
>I am only operating with 100LL and using the Decalin TCP. Plugs currently
>have 80 hours..
>
>Not sure about the 912.. but isn't .020 a small gap... ?
>
>Ps.. the TCP is $19.50 +S&H and treats up to 320 gallons.
>
>
>Blue Skies
>John & Debra McBean
>"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Cure for 912S Carbs Shaking Off? |
10:19:06 AM,
Serialize complete at 09/24/2004 10:19:06 AM
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kitfoxjunky <kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com>
I bought my Fox with the 912S already installed. There was a bracket that
I think is exactly what you are describing below. It was made of thin SS
.. I think, so it could flex. It was rubber mounted to a tube, and
attached under the clamp that holds the carb to the manifold. I have some
picutres if you are interested that I will email to you if you like. After
over 100 hrs have never had a carb shake loose...although the previous
owner reported he did. He was the one who applied this fix.
Gary Walsh
C-GOOT
www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox
Message 11
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean@cableone.net>
There is a way Clem.. but you're probably correct.. it could be a lot of
grief for someone just getting into it and that could sour the experience in
itself.
Blue Skies
John & Debra McBean
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Clem Nichols
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Newbie
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clem Nichols" <cnichols@scrtc.com>
Kurt:
I think the key phrase here is "your plane that you built". I don't think
there's anyway you could purchase an already-built Model V certified at 1500
pounds gross, for example, and manage to get it changed to 1320 pounds.
That's the point I was trying to make to the potential buyer of a Model IV
vs a Model V
Clem Nichols
----- Original Message -----
From: "kurt schrader" <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Newbie
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
> <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
>
> When I went to the FAA office to warm them up to doing
> my inspection, I told them that I wanted it for VFR,
> day/night, land and water. The FAA rep asked what
> weight I was going to certify it for, considering
> floats. I said SS uses 1550 and I wanted to go to
> 1650. He immediately and strongly recommended I go to
> 1750! (I thought he was going to hold me to SS's
> limits.)
>
> After the shock I learned that he meant that if I
> certify, test and insure it for the MAX weight I would
> ever use, I was protected. But if I flew one lb over
> any lower weight, I was not protected.
>
> Likewise, you should be able to certify YOUR plane
> that you built for the weight you want it to be. If
> you like 1320, do that. Just never get caught over
> that weight.
>
> Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
>
> --- jdmcbean <jdmcbean@cableone.net> wrote:
>
>> Interesting...... I have read the same thing...
>> I'll still bet it can be done.....
>> but one needs to be familiar with the
>> regulations outside of the
>> LSA rule.
>>
>> Blue Skies
>> John & Debra McBean
>> "The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
>
>
> __________________________________
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: More on the Jabiru |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com>
Don:
You certainly have a point! The difference provided by the "small" details could
be closed to negligible.
I don't how faster is a KF IV vs a KF II. However, I know that the KF II fuselage
does not have more drag than the KF IV, and is lighter. I've been told that
the KF IV wing, having a different airfoil, is a faster wing. Based on this,
I suppose that a KF IV wing will make a KF II faster. Maybe this is not a
good economical decision, but technically speaking, it should work. My concern
is providing adequate air flow/cooling to the engine, and there are many Jabiru's
powered KF IV out there.
An incentive for keeping my fuselage is that the shipping of a new kit from Idaho
to Puerto Rico is $4500, before the 6.6% taxes.
Jose
AlbertaIV@aol.com wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
> It looks like, if I want to try the Jabiru, I will need to "byte the
> bullet". If I don't get an appropriate speed with the Jabiru and the current
> configuration, I will need to do some modifications to reduce drag. The major
of
> the modification could be to use short, speedster wings. Another suggestion
> I received was to increase the slant of the windshield, like in the Kitfox
> IV. I could also use wheelpants.
>
> Jose
>
Jose,
You can do everything in the world to a Kitfox and each thing will make
it go a little faster. At the end, you might pick up a few miles per hour.
However, when it's all done and over with, you will be able to "walk" faster
than the speed you gained. If you need that much more speed, you will have to go
to a different airplane.
IMHO
Don Smythe
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Jose M. Toro, P.E.
Kitfox II/582
"A slow flight in the Caribbean..."
---------------------------------
Message 13
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
I asked the EAA Government Affairs (Or something like that???) about
changing my Series 5 to 1320 lbs. I was told that the LSA specifically
says that this can not be done. - Even with a homebuilt. - Even by the
original builder.
I had been told earlier by the DAR that I could reduce the gross later.
Randy - Series 5 N10NH 776 lbs
.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jdmcbean
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Newbie
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean@cableone.net>
There is a way Clem.. but you're probably correct.. it could be a lot of
grief for someone just getting into it and that could sour the experience in
itself.
Blue Skies
John & Debra McBean
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Clem Nichols
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Newbie
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clem Nichols" <cnichols@scrtc.com>
Kurt:
I think the key phrase here is "your plane that you built". I don't think
there's anyway you could purchase an already-built Model V certified at 1500
pounds gross, for example, and manage to get it changed to 1320 pounds.
That's the point I was trying to make to the potential buyer of a Model IV
vs a Model V
Clem Nichols
----- Original Message -----
From: "kurt schrader" <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Newbie
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
> <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
>
> When I went to the FAA office to warm them up to doing
> my inspection, I told them that I wanted it for VFR,
> day/night, land and water. The FAA rep asked what
> weight I was going to certify it for, considering
> floats. I said SS uses 1550 and I wanted to go to
> 1650. He immediately and strongly recommended I go to
> 1750! (I thought he was going to hold me to SS's
> limits.)
>
> After the shock I learned that he meant that if I
> certify, test and insure it for the MAX weight I would
> ever use, I was protected. But if I flew one lb over
> any lower weight, I was not protected.
>
> Likewise, you should be able to certify YOUR plane
> that you built for the weight you want it to be. If
> you like 1320, do that. Just never get caught over
> that weight.
>
> Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
>
> --- jdmcbean <jdmcbean@cableone.net> wrote:
>
>> Interesting...... I have read the same thing...
>> I'll still bet it can be done.....
>> but one needs to be familiar with the
>> regulations outside of the
>> LSA rule.
>>
>> Blue Skies
>> John & Debra McBean
>> "The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
>
>
> __________________________________
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Parts/Supplies for sale |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Mdkitfox@aol.com
All,
I have some excess Series V parts and supplies available for sale if anyone
is interested:
1-The elevator weldment, with airfoil ribs installed, completely covered,
and ready for finishing. (White powder coat)
2-Left and Right bungee gear struts, with axles. (White powder coat)
3-The steel reinforcement strips for attaching the wings to fuselage
4-2 Gals of Poly Brush
5-2 Gals of Poly Spray
6-3 Qts of 65-75 Poly Fiber Reducer
7-Original Windshield (never used)
If you live in the MD, VA or DC area, we'll work out something to deliver
the finishing supplies to avoid haz mat or shipping charges.
If interested, please contact me off line or call 301-805-9584 for more
information.
Thanks,
Rick Weiss
Series V Speedster, 912S, SkyStar Serial Number 1
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: More on the Jabiru |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Liles" <wliles@bayou.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: More on the Jabiru
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jerry Liles <wliles@bayou.com>
>
> Jose,
> I think you'll get plenty of speed without major modifications to your
> airplane. Just a few simple fairings at the wing and fuselage attach
> points for the landing gear and lift struts will help, as will wheel
> pants but even that is probably not a necessity. Raking the windshield
> is a lot of work and I don't believe at all needed. There are too many
> Mod IIs flying perfectly satisfactoraly without major surgery for me to
> believe it is necessary. Also remember all modifications tend to add
> weight and Weight is the enemy!
>
> My 2 cents.
>
> Jerry Liles
Jerry, Have to respectfully disagree at least in part. The fairings you
recommend, I believe would not fit in the enemy weight category.
One of the guys I regularly fly with had a Model IV weighing in at 604
labs.- pretty much a bare bones airplane. Mine weighed in at 704, exactly
100 lbs heavier. Most of my weight gain was fairings, however I have kick
panels, carpet, fancy baggage sack cover etc.
We have flown together for many hours (probably in the neighborhood of 250
hours) - sometimes within 150 ft. of each other. He would out climb me, but
after a 5 minute climb only about 200 ft. higher. One such time was on a
warm day, flying out of Minden, Nevada. As we departed, I knew immediately
what his intent was. He wanted to see if we could do a straight left cross
wind departure over a mountain 7 miles west of the airport. It was max
climb all the way and we made it. I will cruise at least 15 mph more than
he did, but when cruising along side him, I would use about 20% less fuel
than he did.
To be strictly accurate here, I should add that most of these flights
together, He had his son with him with baggage for camping or motelling. I
had a bit more fuel capacity and baggage for the same. I have estimated
that our take off weights were virtually identical.
Dead weight is a killer. In my opinion fairings are far from dead weight.
Also, in my opinion, the major difference in performance between the Series
5 and higher over the IV is the stabilator that eliminates the need to trim
with the flaperons which is a major drag inducer in the model IV. Second
would be the smooth cowl. That is why I believe, cruise speeds in the low
120's are reported by most 5,6 and 7s.
Simply because I learned to fly with a trim tab and didn't want to learn
something new, I opted for the Speedster elevator when I ordered my kit.
I have experimented with flaperon trim and it is a real drag. I can't give
numbers simply because it was too long ago and I am too old to remember much
anymore :-). I also have faired lift struts, jury struts, horizontal
stabilizer braces, Nav lights faired into the wing tips and the large tundra
tires, but with hubcaps. The horizontal stabilizer / elevator and vertical
stabilizer / rudder are airfoils with tight gap seals. I do not have the
upper gap over the horizontal stabilizer closed - that for another day, I
guess.
Anyway, the microwave that Don S. once claimed to be in his airplane might
fall in the category of dead (enemy) weight, but fairings, I don't think so
Lowell
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: VG's - first flight test FYI |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Land Shorter <landshorter2@yahoo.com>
Is your aircraft truly stalling (breaking) or just mushing? VGs reduce stall speed
by allowing the aircraft to fly at a higher angle of attack before the wing
stalls (generally around an extra 2 degrees). If your elevator won't allow
your plane to reach this greater angle of attack (because of size, travel, or
localized flow ) then you won't see a reduced stall speed (but you will gain
the other great control and safety benefits that you've been noticing).
After you've played with the wing you should consider placing them on the underside
of the elevator, I think you will notice a big difference in your ability
to fully flare and to reduce your stall speeds.
Joa
www.landshorter.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
One thing that is coming out of the tests. After
stalls, I can recover to altitude and do clearing
turns power on at 42-50 KIAS no problem. Even 30
degrees AOB and the ball pretty far off center are no
problem. The plane feels solid and not scary at all.
---------------------------------
Message 17
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| Subject: | Speedster elevator -- Lowell |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ted Palamarek" <temco@telusplanet.net>
Lowell
I assume since you have the Speedster elevator that you also
have the electric trim with it. By any chance have you got
a photo of the horizontal stab and elevator also showing the
trim unit. If so I would appreciate you sending me a copy
via E-mail.
Thank You
Ted
Edmonton. Ab
DO NOT ARCHIVE
<<<<SNIP>>>>
I opted for the Speedster elevator when I ordered my kit.
Lowell
==============
Contributions
other
==============
==============
http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm
http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list
http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list
==============
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Sonex- Low/Slow Kitfox |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Harrington" <aerowood@mcsi.net>
Hi Robert,
Yes, I sometimes miss barnstorming in old N194KF, but I also have enjoyed
making one day trips in the Sonex that took 2 days in 4KF. For example, the
700 mile round trip to Lowell's Annual Cameron Airpark Kitfox Fly-In is now
a one day flight for me. I spent 8 years having low slow flight in 4KF,
sometimes a bit faster (85 mph at 5-10' in ground effect terrain following
in Eastern Oregon!). I was ready for different flying in the Sonex.
If money was more plentiful, I would have kept the Kitfox and the Sonex.
bh
> Hi Bruce and others,
>
> Do you miss your Kitfox? Sometimes I want to go faster and think about
> buying a Sonex, Pulsar etc but I wonder if I'll miss the barnstorm flying
> I
> do in my KFII. Any comments on this would be appreciated.
>
> Robert
> KFII San Diego
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Sonex- Low/Slow Kitfox |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Harrington" <aerowood@mcsi.net>
My Some with Jab 3300 stalls at 41 mph indicated. 80 downwind, 70 cross
wind, 60 short final, flare at 50 just before the threshold, 3 point and
make first turn-off. Cruise at 140-150, top out at 170.
Good compromise!
bh
> Robert, I have a friend who flies a Long Easy and it flies around 130
> which is fast enough that he is unable to enjoy his time in the air as
> much as he would like. He crosses the fence at 95mph and eats up lots of
> runway on landing. He is considering stepping down to a low slow flight
> just so he can enjoy it more. That is his thoughts on the matter. Thought
> that might interest you.
>
> Dee Young
> Model II
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: 582 cruise RPM |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Harrington" <aerowood@mcsi.net>
Hi Old Buddy,
Could be my faulty memory! But I cruised just under 180F for many of my
cross countries.
190F definitely was a no-no.
bh
> Bruce,
> I have to question your gurus on this one... You say, they think 180
> is
> best but, stay under the max. 180 is the max. How do your gurus fly at
> 180
> and stay under 180 at the same time?
>
> Just curious old buddy.
> Don Smythe
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: N2BH IS FLYING! |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Harrington" <aerowood@mcsi.net>
Hi Robert,
See my reply to other message.
bh
> Hi Bruce and others,
>
> Do you miss your Kitfox? Sometimes I want to go faster and think about
> getting a plane like a Sonex, Pulsar etc but I wonder if I'll miss the low
> and slow flying I do in my KFII. Can you please comment on this?
>
> Robert
Message 22
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Gary Algate" <algate@attglobal.net>
I have always attempted to set my coolant temps at 160 deg on the ground
during taxiing etc and 170 in cruise. This allows a margin for extended
climb out and the associated temperature rise and also in flight if there is
a requirement to rapidly climb there is sufficient margin to do so without
exceeding Rotax operating parameters.
Nb - As I recall, the hotter a 2 stroke engine runs the less efficiently it
operates. That is why liquid cooling was introduced on 2 strokes. It allows
a lower and more stable operating temperature and the additional Hp can be
developed by the volumetric efficiencies that are gained by the 2 stroke
induction system.
>>>>>>>Could be my faulty memory! But I cruised just under 180F for many of
my
cross countries.
190F definitely was a no-no.
bh
> Bruce,
> I have to question your gurus on this one... You say, they think 180
> is
> best but, stay under the max. 180 is the max. How do your gurus fly at
> 180
> and stay under 180 at the same time?
>[Gary Algate] <<<<<<<
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Cure for 912S Carbs Shaking Off? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Grant Fluent <gjfpilot@yahoo.com>
Gary,
Thanks for your reply. Yes, I would be interested in
seeing any pictures you have of the bracket. Please
send them to me off list.
Thanks!
Grant Fluent
Newcastle, NE
Classic IV 912S
--- kitfoxjunky <kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com> wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kitfoxjunky
> <kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com>
>
> I bought my Fox with the 912S already installed.
> There was a bracket that
> I think is exactly what you are describing below. It
> was made of thin SS
> .. I think, so it could flex. It was rubber mounted
> to a tube, and
> attached under the clamp that holds the carb to the
> manifold. I have some
> picutres if you are interested that I will email to
> you if you like. After
> over 100 hrs have never had a carb shake
> loose...although the previous
> owner reported he did. He was the one who applied
> this fix.
>
>
> Gary Walsh
> C-GOOT
> www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox
>
>
>
> Contributions
> any other
> Forums.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/chat
>
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Thanks Bruce and others. |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert" <Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
Thanks Bruce. I'm very impressed with your 800 hours behind the 582 and
respect and appreciate your advice.
The comments from this list have helped get my 582 running great. I've
lowered my radiator (which fixed my overheat problem), permanately removed
my prop hub(so it won't fall off), replaced a broken prop bolt that I
discovered when I removed the hub, adjusted my carbs to get the correct
cht/egt readings, improved my three point landings, etc.
In the last four months I've logged 50 hours.
Robert
Message 25
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| Subject: | Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert" <Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
Dee and other Model II owners,
Do you put your ailerons/flaps UP when you land? Does the stall speed
increase or decrease with the flaps UP versus a neutral position? (I was
told that the stall speed should decrease with the flaps down versus the
neutral position.)
I've been landing with my ailerons/flaps in the maximum UP position in order
to obtain a hands-off approach speed of 50-60MPH. In other planes the flaps
should go down, not up, but that makes my approach speed way to fast.
Please advice.
Robert
Message 26
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|
| Subject: | Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Mike Chaney <mdps_mc@SWOCA.NET>
I have been having the same questions. With my new Jabiru 2200 and the two
bladed prop my Kitfox just wants to continue to fly and float. I almost
have to push it down on the runway.
Just for clarifiction when you say "flaps up" to you mean the handle? When
I pull the flap handle toward me the flaps (flaperon) goes down which causes
the airplane nose to go up.
Mike Chaney
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Harris,
Robert
Subject: Kitfox-List: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing?
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert"
<Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
Dee and other Model II owners,
Do you put your ailerons/flaps UP when you land? Does the stall speed
increase or decrease with the flaps UP versus a neutral position? (I was
told that the stall speed should decrease with the flaps down versus the
neutral position.)
I've been landing with my ailerons/flaps in the maximum UP position in order
to obtain a hands-off approach speed of 50-60MPH. In other planes the flaps
should go down, not up, but that makes my approach speed way to fast.
Please advice.
Robert
Message 27
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|
| Subject: | More on the Jabiru |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com>
Mike:
What model is you Kitfox? What kind of wings it has? What is your opinion after
switching engines?
Jose
Mike Chaney <mdps_mc@swoca.net> wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Mike Chaney
My cruse increased from the mid 80's mph to the low 90's when I switched
from a 582 to the Jabiru 2200.
Mike Chaney
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Liles
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: More on the Jabiru
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jerry Liles
Jose,
I think you'll get plenty of speed without major modifications to your
airplane. Just a few simple fairings at the wing and fuselage attach
points for the landing gear and lift struts will help, as will wheel
pants but even that is probably not a necessity. Raking the windshield
is a lot of work and I don't believe at all needed. There are too many
Mod IIs flying perfectly satisfactoraly without major surgery for me to
believe it is necessary. Also remember all modifications tend to add
weight and Weight is the enemy!
My 2 cents.
Jerry Liles
Jose M. Toro wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro"
>
>Jerry:
>
>It looks like, if I want to try the Jabiru, I will need to "byte the
bullet". If I don't get an appropriate speed with the Jabiru and the
current configuration, I will need to do some modifications to reduce drag.
The major of the modification could be to use short, speedster wings.
Another suggestion I received was to increase the slant of the windshield,
like in the Kitfox IV. I could also use wheelpants.
>
>Jose
>
>Jerry Liles wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jerry Liles
>
>Jose, then I suspect you should do just fine with a Jabiru 2200.
>
>Jerry Liles
>
>Jose M. Toro wrote:
>
>
Jose M. Toro, P.E.
Kitfox II/582
"A slow flight in the Caribbean..."
---------------------------------
vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today!
Message 28
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| Subject: | Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dee Young" <henrysfork1@msn.com>
I never use flaps. The handle is secured in the neutral position with a
heavy tie.
Dee Young
Model II
Do not archive
>From: "Harris, Robert" <Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
>Reply-To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>To: "'kitfox-list@matronics.com'" <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Kitfox-List: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing?
>Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 10:58:46 -0700
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert"
><Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
>
>Dee and other Model II owners,
>
>Do you put your ailerons/flaps UP when you land? Does the stall speed
>increase or decrease with the flaps UP versus a neutral position? (I was
>told that the stall speed should decrease with the flaps down versus the
>neutral position.)
>
>I've been landing with my ailerons/flaps in the maximum UP position in
>order
>to obtain a hands-off approach speed of 50-60MPH. In other planes the flaps
>should go down, not up, but that makes my approach speed way to fast.
>
>Please advice.
>Robert
>
>
Message 29
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|
| Subject: | Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert" <Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
Thanks Dee,
How do I determine the neutral position? Is that where the plane will fly
straight and level with hands-off?
Robert
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dee Young
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing?
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dee Young" <henrysfork1@msn.com>
I never use flaps. The handle is secured in the neutral position with a
heavy tie.
Dee Young
Model II
Do not archive
>From: "Harris, Robert" <Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
>Reply-To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>To: "'kitfox-list@matronics.com'" <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Kitfox-List: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing?
>Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 10:58:46 -0700
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert"
><Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
>
>Dee and other Model II owners,
>
>Do you put your ailerons/flaps UP when you land? Does the stall speed
>increase or decrease with the flaps UP versus a neutral position? (I was
>told that the stall speed should decrease with the flaps down versus the
>neutral position.)
>
>I've been landing with my ailerons/flaps in the maximum UP position in
>order
>to obtain a hands-off approach speed of 50-60MPH. In other planes the flaps
>should go down, not up, but that makes my approach speed way to fast.
>
>Please advice.
>Robert
>
>
Message 30
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|
| Subject: | Re: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing? |
Seal-Send-Time: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 15:29:48 -0600
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dee Young" <henrysfork1@msn.com>
Sounds about right to me.
----- Original Message -----
From: Harris, Robert<mailto:Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
To: 'kitfox-list@matronics.com'<mailto:'kitfox-list@matronics.com'>
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 3:11 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing?
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert" <Robert_Harris@intuit.com<mailto:Robert_Harris@intuit.com>>
Thanks Dee,
How do I determine the neutral position? Is that where the plane will fly
straight and level with hands-off?
Robert
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com>
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dee Young
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com<mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing?
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dee Young" <henrysfork1@msn.com<mailto:henrysfork1@msn.com>>
I never use flaps. The handle is secured in the neutral position with a
heavy tie.
Dee Young
Model II
Do not archive
>From: "Harris, Robert" <Robert_Harris@intuit.com<mailto:Robert_Harris@intuit.com>>
>Reply-To: kitfox-list@matronics.com<mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>To: "'kitfox-list@matronics.com'<mailto:'kitfox-list@matronics.com'>" <kitfox-list@matronics.com<mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>>
>Subject: Kitfox-List: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing?
>Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 10:58:46 -0700
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert"
><Robert_Harris@intuit.com<mailto:Robert_Harris@intuit.com>>
>
>Dee and other Model II owners,
>
>Do you put your ailerons/flaps UP when you land? Does the stall speed
>increase or decrease with the flaps UP versus a neutral position? (I was
>told that the stall speed should decrease with the flaps down versus the
>neutral position.)
>
>I've been landing with my ailerons/flaps in the maximum UP position in
>order
>to obtain a hands-off approach speed of 50-60MPH. In other planes the flaps
>should go down, not up, but that makes my approach speed way to fast.
>
>Please advice.
>Robert
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: VG's - Third flight test FYI |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Oh yes, it is definately stalling. :-)
I have finished my third test flight and third
position for the VG's. I now have 100 installed.
Results:
No good change in stall speed or cruise that I can
see. Compared to the test with no VG's, my cruise is
down 2 knots. My stalls are still almost exactly the
same speed - if anything, higher. I have 3 more tests
in mind to find the sweet spot.
My ASI is the helo type, so I have good definition of
airspeeds down to 20 knots. One knot is a needle's
width on this scale. I do every stall twice for
consistancy.
The quality of the stall with VG's is very different
though. I can pull the stick back into the stall and
hear (when at idle) the wind seperate and re-attach.
Before it was the typical stall. A soft break with
nose drop and a mild left roll. I really didn't hear
anything or feel anything except the lift falling off
and the break/roll. It was best to keep the ball in
trim.
Now it is like luffing your sail (Is that the right
sailing term Michel?) or a large flag popping in the
wind. I can pull into a deeper stall and ride it like
a bucking horse with the nose bobbing and airspeed
changing from 42-49 clean. While in the stall, I can
use the rudder and flapperons together or
independently and still steer, though I am going down
and making funny noises. It doesn't seem to fall off
either way, or quit going where I want, except for
down.
It is the sound of the airflow re-attaching that gives
the pop, and then the turtledeck rumbles as you go
back into the stall. The air seperates there first.
(I put no VG's across the center section)
I have to pull all power, or my stall can be up to 5
knots slower for each flap setting. I don't do any
stalls for too long because it is a bit hard on the
plane IMHO. But I have lost up to 500' once by
holding the stall for a bit to read the gauges and
play a little with stability. With the nose bobbing,
I figure the VSI is a waste of time though.
It is a bit hard on me too, since I am still looking
for RPM, GB temps, oil pressure, other aircraft,
altitude, etc while stalled and checking airspeeds.
Busy!
I haven't tried yet, but it doesn't seem that the
plane would be able to spin, at least with this mid
CG. It could turn, then recover, turn again, with
each bob and you could just steer out of it. That is
my guess by the feel of it.
But I still want it all. I would like to see a power
off stall of 5 KIAS slower with each flap setting. My
goal was 30 KIAS at gross. I am still at 35 KIAS at
1300# instead.
More later. My foam strut fairings are in! Report on
that to follow too.
Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
--- Land Shorter <landshorter2@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Is your aircraft truly stalling (breaking) or just
> mushing? VGs reduce stall speed by allowing the
> aircraft to fly at a higher angle of attack before
> the wing stalls (generally around an extra 2
> degrees). If your elevator won't allow your plane
> to reach this greater angle of attack (because of
> size, travel, or localized flow ) then you won't see
> a reduced stall speed (but you will gain the other
> great control and safety benefits that you've been
> noticing).
>
> After you've played with the wing you should
> consider placing them on the underside of the
> elevator, I think you will notice a big difference
> in your ability to fully flare and to reduce your
> stall speeds.
>
> Joa
> www.landshorter.com
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> One thing that is coming out of the tests. After
> stalls, I can recover to altitude and do clearing
> turns power on at 42-50 KIAS no problem. Even 30
> degrees AOB and the ball pretty far off center are
> no problem. The plane feels solid and not scary at all.
Message 32
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| Subject: | Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert" <Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
Model II owners,
Do you put your ailerons/flaps UP (activator lever down on the floor) when
you land?
--Robert
Mike,
I have been landing with the activator HANDLE DOWN on the floorboard which
put the ailerons/flaps in an up position. I do this attempt to trim the
plane to 1.3 times the stall speed. When I put the flaps down( activator up)
the approach speed is to fast.
I used to have floating problems like you are having. I solved this by:
lowering my RPM idle, slowing my approach speed, and landing in the three
point position at stall speed.
--Robert
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Cure for 912S Carbs Shaking Off? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Leach Family" <leach@wk.planet.gen.nz>
In reply to Grant Fluent
I have an Avid Flyer with a 80hp 912UL and slipper clutch. I had serious
trouble starting the new enging with both carbs shaking right out of the
sockets even though they were fitted correctly, This was when the engine
was brand new and it has now settled down and starts much better. I
initially solved the problem by making a bracket like you have suggested.
It is made of 3/8" chrome molly 4130 tube with a small piece of curved plate
welded on the ends. The hose clips that hold the scat tube on to the carbs
are spot welded on to the curved plates. I also have a short piece of 2"
radiator hose between the hose clip and the scat tube to cushion the carbs a
little. The 3/8" tube is flexible enough to allow the carbs to move but it
takes away all that violent whipping. I have the tube attached to the main
engine mount bolts that come through the Avid mounting donuts with a strut
down to the top of the engine, but bolted anywhere on the engine would be
ok. My bracket solved the problem completely.
I have e-mailed photo's directly to you Grant.
Brian Leach
New Zealand
Message 34
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| Subject: | Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rick" <turboflyer@comcast.net>
The nose goes up because lift is increased but also drag which is what you
want to have if your trying to land quicker without increasing speed. Just
put in one notch of flap and then do a trim for proper attitude. Flaps
increase your stall speed, full flaps increase it more but make cross wind
control a bit harder. If your too high do a side slip and then apply flaps
and trim for a stabilized approach. Hope that helps a bit. FYI in a model 5
you can exceed 2000pfm decent in a slide slip and visibility is super.
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mike Chaney
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing?
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Mike Chaney <mdps_mc@SWOCA.NET>
I have been having the same questions. With my new Jabiru 2200 and the two
bladed prop my Kitfox just wants to continue to fly and float. I almost
have to push it down on the runway.
Just for clarifiction when you say "flaps up" to you mean the handle? When
I pull the flap handle toward me the flaps (flaperon) goes down which causes
the airplane nose to go up.
Mike Chaney
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Harris,
Robert
Subject: Kitfox-List: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing?
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert"
<Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
Dee and other Model II owners,
Do you put your ailerons/flaps UP when you land? Does the stall speed
increase or decrease with the flaps UP versus a neutral position? (I was
told that the stall speed should decrease with the flaps down versus the
neutral position.)
I've been landing with my ailerons/flaps in the maximum UP position in order
to obtain a hands-off approach speed of 50-60MPH. In other planes the flaps
should go down, not up, but that makes my approach speed way to fast.
Please advice.
Robert
Message 35
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| Subject: | How to Change to Daily Digest |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Roger L <yiotta@yahoo.com>
OK, I give up, I can't figure out how to change my preferences.
Can somebody explain how to change to daily digest format?
Roger L
__________________________________
Message 36
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| Subject: | Cure for 912S Carbs Shaking Off? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rick" <turboflyer@comcast.net>
I have been told the 912 can exert appx. 9Gs when starting and on shutdown,
FYI.
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Leach Family
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Cure for 912S Carbs Shaking Off?
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Leach Family" <leach@wk.planet.gen.nz>
In reply to Grant Fluent
I have an Avid Flyer with a 80hp 912UL and slipper clutch. I had serious
trouble starting the new enging with both carbs shaking right out of the
sockets even though they were fitted correctly, This was when the engine
was brand new and it has now settled down and starts much better. I
initially solved the problem by making a bracket like you have suggested.
It is made of 3/8" chrome molly 4130 tube with a small piece of curved plate
welded on the ends. The hose clips that hold the scat tube on to the carbs
are spot welded on to the curved plates. I also have a short piece of 2"
radiator hose between the hose clip and the scat tube to cushion the carbs a
little. The 3/8" tube is flexible enough to allow the carbs to move but it
takes away all that violent whipping. I have the tube attached to the main
engine mount bolts that come through the Avid mounting donuts with a strut
down to the top of the engine, but bolted anywhere on the engine would be
ok. My bracket solved the problem completely.
I have e-mailed photo's directly to you Grant.
Brian Leach
New Zealand
Message 37
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michael Gibbs <MichaelGibbs@cox.net>
I had said:
> > If I were to do it over again, I'd have built a much softer
> > instrument panel :-)
Michel asked:
>Mike, does this mean that your safety belt attachment broke? Do you
>know where?
No, all of the seat belts and associated attachments held firm. The
instrument panel broke loose and some of the tubing around the cabin
area also broke, which is what I think made the face-to-panel contact
possible.
Lowell asked:
>I have found that the shoulder harness constantly slips off my shoulders. Do
>you think this might have happened in this instance.
It's possible that my right strap slipped but the nasty bruise on my
left shoulder suggests that the left one was in place :-)
Mike G.
N728KF
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen <torgemor@online.no>
Hi Mike and others,
(Just back -lots of mail in my box and starting from top :) )
Hmm. Isnt it the other way around??
When you extend the flapperon (the flap), the nose move down. This
because the center of lift move backward vs. the center of gravity.
In a model II, there is no need to use the flap, but for trim purpose only.
However, the max flap setting is found this way: Set flap to neutral, move
your aileron for full deflection (left -or right), and keep this position
with your hand. Then start to extend the flap, the flap will go to "a kind
of hard stop". This is the max flap we ever should use in a mod I, II or
III Kitfox. Install a flap stop at this position. Well, -if you pull the
flap handle beyond this point, your stick will start moving against
center. At full flap, you'll see how little deflection there is left, then
have a look at the deflection...
A model II with low fuel and just the pilot, can land as short as 200
feet, with a little breaking! But who need that?? However, this is a
"power on" landing.
The speed is the key. Most of my landings is power off, then adjusting
with fwd. slip. Just one thing to remember, normally we (?) do such a
practice alone in the plane, with a passenger (or more load) things is
some different. You'll need a little more (energy) speed, -and the flare
start a little higher.
The flap "in" (retracted) position is found this way: Lock the stick in
neutral position, use a straight piece of "wood rule" -as long as
flapperon plus wing. Align the "wood rule" with the underside of the
flapperon, at the extension of the rule, under the leading edge of the
wing, there shall be a distance of 1 inch on both sides (with stick
centered). This is according to the builder manual for my Kitfox model II.
Torgeir.
On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 14:27:02 -0700, Mike Chaney <mdps_mc@swoca.net> wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Mike Chaney <mdps_mc@SWOCA.NET>
>
> I have been having the same questions. With my new Jabiru 2200 and the
> two
> bladed prop my Kitfox just wants to continue to fly and float. I almost
> have to push it down on the runway.
> Just for clarifiction when you say "flaps up" to you mean the handle?
> When
> I pull the flap handle toward me the flaps (flaperon) goes down which
> causes
> the airplane nose to go up.
>
> Mike Chaney
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Harris,
> Robert
> To: 'kitfox-list@matronics.com'
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing?
>
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert"
> <Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
>
> Dee and other Model II owners,
>
> Do you put your ailerons/flaps UP when you land? Does the stall speed
> increase or decrease with the flaps UP versus a neutral position? (I was
> told that the stall speed should decrease with the flaps down versus the
> neutral position.)
>
> I've been landing with my ailerons/flaps in the maximum UP position in
> order
> to obtain a hands-off approach speed of 50-60MPH. In other planes the
> flaps
> should go down, not up, but that makes my approach speed way to fast.
>
> Please advice.
> Robert
>
>
--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Message 39
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| Subject: | Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rick" <turboflyer@comcast.net>
I think that is when in straight and level unacclerated or decelerated
flight in a constant altitude there is no forward or back pressure on the
stick, or for that matter side pressure given the aircraft is trimmed
correctly and no adverse mechanical trim has been made. Since the flapperons
work as both flaps and ailerons it is a bit tricky. But I think the answer
is probably mostly yes. Your flying netural may be different than a static
netural. But when you put in flaps the plane should have no tendency to roll
one way or the other. It will change pitch.
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Harris,
Robert
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing?
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert"
<Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
Thanks Dee,
How do I determine the neutral position? Is that where the plane will fly
straight and level with hands-off?
Robert
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dee Young
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing?
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dee Young" <henrysfork1@msn.com>
I never use flaps. The handle is secured in the neutral position with a
heavy tie.
Dee Young
Model II
Do not archive
>From: "Harris, Robert" <Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
>Reply-To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>To: "'kitfox-list@matronics.com'" <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Kitfox-List: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing?
>Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 10:58:46 -0700
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert"
><Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
>
>Dee and other Model II owners,
>
>Do you put your ailerons/flaps UP when you land? Does the stall speed
>increase or decrease with the flaps UP versus a neutral position? (I was
>told that the stall speed should decrease with the flaps down versus the
>neutral position.)
>
>I've been landing with my ailerons/flaps in the maximum UP position in
>order
>to obtain a hands-off approach speed of 50-60MPH. In other planes the flaps
>should go down, not up, but that makes my approach speed way to fast.
>
>Please advice.
>Robert
>
>
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Sonex- Low/Slow Kitfox |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clem Nichols" <cnichols@scrtc.com>
Talk about low and slow, how about this? A couple of weeks ago I purchased
a Quicksilver MXL just so I could go really low and slow with the wind in my
face. I started with an MXL several years ago, and then moved up to a Rans
S12XL. From there I moved up to a Model IV which I dearly enjoy flying, but
at the same time I felt that I was giving up something in return. I've come
to the obvious conclusion that there is no perfect compromise plane, so now
I have a fleet of two. The Kitfox is good for cross-countries of a couple
of hundred miles or so, but for the sheer fun of flying it's definitely hard
to beat a little ultralight. I have it hangared on my own grass strip which
is practically in my back yard, and can be up, up, and away within a few
minutes of leaving my office. When the wind is calm and the thermals have
died down it's pure relaxation. Any of you who've never tried it should do
so.
Clem Nichols
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Harris, Robert" <Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Sonex- Low/Slow Kitfox
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert"
> <Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
>
> Hi Bruce and others,
> Do you miss your Kitfox? Sometimes I want to go faster and think about
> buying a Sonex, Pulsar etc but I wonder if I'll miss the barnstorm flying
> I
> do in my KFII. Any comments on this would be appreciated.
> Robert
>
> Robert, I have a friend who flies a Long Easy and it flies around 130
> which
> is fast enough that he is unable to enjoy his time in the air as much as
> he
> would like. He crosses the fence at 95mph and eats up lots of runway on
> landing. He is considering stepping down to a low slow flight just so he
> can
> enjoy it more. That is his thoughts on the matter. Thought that might
> interest you.
>
> Dee Young
> Model II
>
> Thanks Dee --Robert
>
>
>
Message 41
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| Subject: | Joe Oakley are you out there? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Oakley" <joakley@ida.net>
you must be looking for me. I am here, after trips to Seattle phoenix and
other places. also got rolled up in a kitfox last month, cartwheeled. not
mine or me at the stick but wow. surly not like Mike last week. but still an
E ticket ride.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
av8rps@tznet.com
Subject: Kitfox-List: Joe Oakley are you out there?
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: <av8rps@tznet.com>
I've tried to contact Joe Oakley at joakley@ida.net, but get a error and
returned mail.
Are you out there Joe?
Paul Seehafer
Wisconsin
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: Classic IV - Problem with 912 Oil Tank |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen <torgemor@online.no>
Hi Grant,
Sorry for late reply.
He removed the original stud, by just cutting the "silver soldered" tube
as he don't wanted to spoil the cadmium plated silver soldering. He then
welded a new stud to the tube to take a banjo fitting further connected to
the original rubber housing. The banjo bolt is lockwired, and finally
looks and work fine.
Torgeir.
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 07:10:10 -0700 (PDT), Grant Fluent
<gjfpilot@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Grant Fluent <gjfpilot@yahoo.com>
>
> Torgeir,
> Thanks for the pictures. Do you know what kind of
> fitting your friend used on the tank? Is it a 37
> degree AN fitting?
> I looked at the fitting that was supplied with the
> tank and I don't think I can shorten it enough without
> also having to heat it with a torch. I am going to try
> to find a different fitting first.
> Grant Fluent
> Newcastle, NE
> Classic IV 912S
>
do not archive
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing? |
Seal-Send-Time: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 18:42:56 -0500
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "David Savener" <david_savener@msn.com>
I hardly ever use the flaps in my model II. I slip it when high. I have had the
headwind go to zero from brisk as I getting close to the ground. I'd rather
have enough airspeed to have the control to get into a good landing attitude
before I bleed off my extra airspeed.
When I first flew the fox I wanted to land short. I almost rolled it into a ball.
I got a little wing low and cranked in aileron to bring it up at the same time
the headwind was disappearing.
I'm sure that my low flapperon stalled, because I had flaps down in addition to
the aileron to raise the wing.
My airplane is light. It bleeds off airspeed quickly when the power is reduced
to idle. It lands short enough even without all those aerobatics at super low
airspeed.
Dave Savener
----- Original Message -----
From: Harris, Robert<mailto:Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
To: 'kitfox-list@matronics.com'<mailto:'kitfox-list@matronics.com'>
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 4:34 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing?
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert" <Robert_Harris@intuit.com<mailto:Robert_Harris@intuit.com>>
Model II owners,
Do you put your ailerons/flaps UP (activator lever down on the floor) when
you land?
--Robert
Mike,
I have been landing with the activator HANDLE DOWN on the floorboard which
put the ailerons/flaps in an up position. I do this attempt to trim the
plane to 1.3 times the stall speed. When I put the flaps down( activator up)
the approach speed is to fast.
I used to have floating problems like you are having. I solved this by:
lowering my RPM idle, slowing my approach speed, and landing in the three
point position at stall speed.
--Robert
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: Speedster elevator -- Lowell |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
Ted, Yes I have the Speedster elevator, but much modified as when I bought
the kit I opted for the elevator, but didn't get the speedster package and
sort of worked up my own set-up.
Attached are 4 pictures of the installation. I put the access door on the
bottom as that is where I thought it should be. Then I saw the instructions
and what the plans called for later. It is a bit of trouble getting into
the set-up, but did another for a friend and made some mods that simplify
installation and maintenance if necessary.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Palamarek" <temco@telusplanet.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Speedster elevator -- Lowell
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ted Palamarek" <temco@telusplanet.net>
>
> Lowell
>
> I assume since you have the Speedster elevator that you also
> have the electric trim with it. By any chance have you got
> a photo of the horizontal stab and elevator also showing the
> trim unit. If so I would appreciate you sending me a copy
> via E-mail.
>
> Thank You
> Ted
> Edmonton. Ab
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
> <<<<SNIP>>>>
> I opted for the Speedster elevator when I ordered my kit.
>
> Lowell
>
>
> ==============
> Contributions
> other
> ==============
> ==============
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm
> ==============
>
>
Message 45
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|
| Subject: | Re: Parts/Supplies for sale |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Robert Toth <rtoth1@verizon.net>
I can use the poly brush, the poly spray I live in Northern Virginia,
Woodbridge! rtoth1@verizon.net Bob Toth
Mdkitfox@aol.com wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Mdkitfox@aol.com
>
>All,
>
>I have some excess Series V parts and supplies available for sale if anyone
>is interested:
>
>1-The elevator weldment, with airfoil ribs installed, completely covered,
>and ready for finishing. (White powder coat)
>2-Left and Right bungee gear struts, with axles. (White powder coat)
>3-The steel reinforcement strips for attaching the wings to fuselage
>4-2 Gals of Poly Brush
>5-2 Gals of Poly Spray
>6-3 Qts of 65-75 Poly Fiber Reducer
>7-Original Windshield (never used)
>
>If you live in the MD, VA or DC area, we'll work out something to deliver
>the finishing supplies to avoid haz mat or shipping charges.
>
>If interested, please contact me off line or call 301-805-9584 for more
>information.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Rick Weiss
>Series V Speedster, 912S, SkyStar Serial Number 1
>
>
>
>
Message 46
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|
| Subject: | A lesson from a crow |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ben Baltrusaitis" <ben@gmpexpress.net>
This afternoon I was driving up Rt. 15 North of Williamsport. It's a beautiful
drive among the mountains in PA. I was wishing to be flying instead of driving,
but the scenery is breathtaking anyway. Some of the leaves are beginning to
show some red.
It's a four lane highway with a generous median in most areas except for the several
spots where they had to cut into the side of the mountain to build the road.
I was riding in just such an area when this crow came smoking across the
road and swooped down heading right for the man-made cliff to my left with a guard
rail on top. The little devil was heading right for the rocks about 60 feet
from the top. I watched to see what would happen and wondered if this was some
type of crow terrorist training. When he was maybe 30 feet from impact he
pulled up and glided to the upper-most rock just below the guard rail. He alighted
on the rock and folded his wings without as much as a lean to get his balance.
What a lesson in grace and airspeed manipulation.
Gosh, this is what we need. Instead of constructing our airports in flat valleys
with trees, wires, and houses on the approach, we need to put them on mountains
with a cliff right off the end of the runway. This way we can come in low,
like the crow, and pull up so we lose all of our vertical speed just as we reach
runway height. Nose over and touch down with less than 10 mph forward speed!
I wonder. How high a cliff we would need for a 757?
Ben
Message 47
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|
| Subject: | Re: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jerry Liles <wliles@bayou.com>
I think you probably misspoke - applying Flaps Decreases Stall Speed,
not increase it.
Rick wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rick" <turboflyer@comcast.net>
>
>The nose goes up because lift is increased but also drag which is what you
>want to have if your trying to land quicker without increasing speed. Just
>put in one notch of flap and then do a trim for proper attitude. Flaps
>increase your stall speed, full flaps increase it more but make cross wind
>control a bit harder. If your too high do a side slip and then apply flaps
>and trim for a stabilized approach. Hope that helps a bit. FYI in a model 5
>you can exceed 2000pfm decent in a slide slip and visibility is super.
>
>Rick
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mike Chaney
>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing?
>
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Mike Chaney <mdps_mc@SWOCA.NET>
>
>I have been having the same questions. With my new Jabiru 2200 and the two
>bladed prop my Kitfox just wants to continue to fly and float. I almost
>have to push it down on the runway.
>Just for clarifiction when you say "flaps up" to you mean the handle? When
>I pull the flap handle toward me the flaps (flaperon) goes down which causes
>the airplane nose to go up.
>
>Mike Chaney
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Harris,
>Robert
>To: 'kitfox-list@matronics.com'
>Subject: Kitfox-List: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing?
>
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert"
><Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
>
>Dee and other Model II owners,
>
>Do you put your ailerons/flaps UP when you land? Does the stall speed
>increase or decrease with the flaps UP versus a neutral position? (I was
>told that the stall speed should decrease with the flaps down versus the
>neutral position.)
>
>I've been landing with my ailerons/flaps in the maximum UP position in order
>to obtain a hands-off approach speed of 50-60MPH. In other planes the flaps
>should go down, not up, but that makes my approach speed way to fast.
>
>Please advice.
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------
>Scanned by Bayou Internet for all known viruses.
>http://www.bayou.com
>
>
>
>
Message 48
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|
| Subject: | VG's - Third flight test FYI |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Kurt,
I am not sure that I even know enough to be dangerous,,,but,.....
I was told by someone whom I credited with some knowledge that VG's don't
affect stall speed if installed at the correct point - chord wise. As I
understand it, there is a point about 10% of chord back where the air is
changing from laminar to turbulent. This is the point you want the VG's.
If you put them ahead of this point, you add drag. If you put them too far
behind this point, they are not as affective.
And as I understand it, on our wings, this point is at about the 10% point.
???
Randy
.
Message 49
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|
| Subject: | A lesson from a crow |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Ben,
I love it!
Thanks,
Randy - N10NH
.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben
Baltrusaitis
Subject: Kitfox-List: A lesson from a crow
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ben Baltrusaitis" <ben@gmpexpress.net>
This afternoon I was driving up Rt. 15 North of Williamsport. It's a
beautiful drive among the mountains in PA. I was wishing to be flying
instead of driving, but the scenery is breathtaking anyway. Some of the
leaves are beginning to show some red.
It's a four lane highway with a generous median in most areas except for the
several spots where they had to cut into the side of the mountain to build
the road. I was riding in just such an area when this crow came smoking
across the road and swooped down heading right for the man-made cliff to my
left with a guard rail on top. The little devil was heading right for the
rocks about 60 feet from the top. I watched to see what would happen and
wondered if this was some type of crow terrorist training. When he was maybe
30 feet from impact he pulled up and glided to the upper-most rock just
below the guard rail. He alighted on the rock and folded his wings without
as much as a lean to get his balance. What a lesson in grace and airspeed
manipulation.
Gosh, this is what we need. Instead of constructing our airports in flat
valleys with trees, wires, and houses on the approach, we need to put them
on mountains with a cliff right off the end of the runway. This way we can
come in low, like the crow, and pull up so we lose all of our vertical speed
just as we reach runway height. Nose over and touch down with less than 10
mph forward speed!
I wonder. How high a cliff we would need for a 757?
Ben
Message 50
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|
| Subject: | Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rick" <turboflyer@comcast.net>
Correct, thanks.
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Liles
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing?
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jerry Liles <wliles@bayou.com>
I think you probably misspoke - applying Flaps Decreases Stall Speed,
not increase it.
Rick wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rick" <turboflyer@comcast.net>
>
>The nose goes up because lift is increased but also drag which is what you
>want to have if your trying to land quicker without increasing speed. Just
>put in one notch of flap and then do a trim for proper attitude. Flaps
>increase your stall speed, full flaps increase it more but make cross wind
>control a bit harder. If your too high do a side slip and then apply flaps
>and trim for a stabilized approach. Hope that helps a bit. FYI in a model 5
>you can exceed 2000pfm decent in a slide slip and visibility is super.
>
>Rick
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mike Chaney
>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing?
>
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Mike Chaney <mdps_mc@SWOCA.NET>
>
>I have been having the same questions. With my new Jabiru 2200 and the two
>bladed prop my Kitfox just wants to continue to fly and float. I almost
>have to push it down on the runway.
>Just for clarifiction when you say "flaps up" to you mean the handle? When
>I pull the flap handle toward me the flaps (flaperon) goes down which
causes
>the airplane nose to go up.
>
>Mike Chaney
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Harris,
>Robert
>To: 'kitfox-list@matronics.com'
>Subject: Kitfox-List: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing?
>
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert"
><Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
>
>Dee and other Model II owners,
>
>Do you put your ailerons/flaps UP when you land? Does the stall speed
>increase or decrease with the flaps UP versus a neutral position? (I was
>told that the stall speed should decrease with the flaps down versus the
>neutral position.)
>
>I've been landing with my ailerons/flaps in the maximum UP position in
order
>to obtain a hands-off approach speed of 50-60MPH. In other planes the flaps
>should go down, not up, but that makes my approach speed way to fast.
>
>Please advice.
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------
>Scanned by Bayou Internet for all known viruses.
>http://www.bayou.com
>
>
Message 51
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|
| Subject: | Re: Pre-paint finish. Careful with the kerosene |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Ceashman@aol.com
BTW, just a personal opinion but I would think twice about using a
Kerosene type blower as a heat source. I have heard that these Kerosene
heaters can
leave a residue on the paint surface and cause problems. Don't know if its
true but seemed reasonable to me.
Don Smythe
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Follow the excellent training book by Polyfiber corp. You cannot go wrong --
as John said, do not listen to Leroy! He is the main character who gives
questionable advice
Be careful with the kerosene heater. You will probable see fish eyes
(craters) in the paint, especially the urethane top coats. Do not use.
Be careful with the kerosene heater. You will be working with very volatile
material, especially the Polyspray (silver). The right combination or mixture
of solvent/air and the point of ignition and your paint problems will be over.
Do not use.
Eric Ashman. Been in the car paint business for a long time.
Message 52
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|
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Brian Peck <u2drvr@dslextreme.com>
As far as I know, the only place gross weight restrictions are listed
officially is in the aircraft operating limits that are issued with the
airworthiness certificate (experimental amateur built). These operating
limits can be changed by the local Flight Standards District Office
(FSDO). I don't think the FAA has set a policy on this issue yet, but
the EAA would be a good resource to find out. If the FAA has not set a
national policy, then it would be up to the FSDO...I don't think a DAR
can change established operating limits. You may be able to change the
engine or prop (which would require notification of the FAA anyway) and
use that as a justification for changing the gross weight.
Cheers,
Brian Peck - Series 5 904 lbs - U-2S 40,000 lbs
On Sep 24, 2004, at 8:19 AM, Randy Daughenbaugh wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh"
> <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
>
> I asked the EAA Government Affairs (Or something like that???) about
> changing my Series 5 to 1320 lbs. I was told that the LSA
> specifically
> says that this can not be done. - Even with a homebuilt. - Even by
> the
> original builder.
>
> I had been told earlier by the DAR that I could reduce the gross later.
>
> Randy - Series 5 N10NH 776 lbs
>
> .
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jdmcbean
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Newbie
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean@cableone.net>
>
> There is a way Clem.. but you're probably correct.. it could be a lot
> of
> grief for someone just getting into it and that could sour the
> experience in
> itself.
>
> Blue Skies
> John & Debra McBean
> "The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Clem
> Nichols
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Newbie
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clem Nichols" <cnichols@scrtc.com>
>
> Kurt:
>
> I think the key phrase here is "your plane that you built". I don't
> think
> there's anyway you could purchase an already-built Model V certified
> at 1500
> pounds gross, for example, and manage to get it changed to 1320 pounds.
> That's the point I was trying to make to the potential buyer of a
> Model IV
> vs a Model V
>
> Clem Nichols
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "kurt schrader" <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Newbie
>
>
>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
>> <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
>>
>> When I went to the FAA office to warm them up to doing
>> my inspection, I told them that I wanted it for VFR,
>> day/night, land and water. The FAA rep asked what
>> weight I was going to certify it for, considering
>> floats. I said SS uses 1550 and I wanted to go to
>> 1650. He immediately and strongly recommended I go to
>> 1750! (I thought he was going to hold me to SS's
>> limits.)
>>
>> After the shock I learned that he meant that if I
>> certify, test and insure it for the MAX weight I would
>> ever use, I was protected. But if I flew one lb over
>> any lower weight, I was not protected.
>>
>> Likewise, you should be able to certify YOUR plane
>> that you built for the weight you want it to be. If
>> you like 1320, do that. Just never get caught over
>> that weight.
>>
>> Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
>>
>> --- jdmcbean <jdmcbean@cableone.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Interesting...... I have read the same thing...
>>> I'll still bet it can be done.....
>>> but one needs to be familiar with the
>>> regulations outside of the
>>> LSA rule.
>>>
>>> Blue Skies
>>> John & Debra McBean
>>> "The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
>>
>>
>> __________________________________
>>
>>
>
>
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> >
>
>
Message 53
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|
| Subject: | Re: Pre-paint finish. Careful with the kerosene |
Seal-Send-Time: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 21:20:52 -0600
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dee Young" <henrysfork1@msn.com>
Your absolutely right guys the kerosene heater is messy when used inside. They
will smoke up everything.
Dee Young
Model II
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Ceashman@aol.com<mailto:Ceashman@aol.com>
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com<mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 8:55 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Pre-paint finish. Careful with the kerosene
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Ceashman@aol.com<mailto:Ceashman@aol.com>
BTW, just a personal opinion but I would think twice about using a
Kerosene type blower as a heat source. I have heard that these Kerosene
heaters can
leave a residue on the paint surface and cause problems. Don't know if its
true but seemed reasonable to me.
Don Smythe
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Follow the excellent training book by Polyfiber corp. You cannot go wrong --
as John said, do not listen to Leroy! He is the main character who gives
questionable advice
Be careful with the kerosene heater. You will probable see fish eyes
(craters) in the paint, especially the urethane top coats. Do not use.
Be careful with the kerosene heater. You will be working with very volatile
material, especially the Polyspray (silver). The right combination or mixture
of solvent/air and the point of ignition and your paint problems will be over.
Do not use.
Eric Ashman. Been in the car paint business for a long time.
Message 54
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|
| Subject: | VG's - Third flight test FYI |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Hi Randy,
I think your info is mostly correct, but I haven't
been descriptive enough in what I am doing. First the
manufacturer of the VG's guarantees they will work and
gives testimonials of lower stall speeds on other
aircraft. They claim to achieve the lower speed I am
looking for. They also provided a generic template
for the Kitfox/Rans aircraft and describe the "sweet
spot" as 8-10% of cord as you were told.
What I have been doing is looking for the minimum VG's
that will do the job as well as the best position on
my plane. I have been avoiding VG's in the center
because I like the buffet just before stall for the
warning and the more gentle stall. I know I am giving
up some speed decrease for it, but it shouldn't be
that much. ??? A little power eliminates that
inboard stall. But then, maybe full span VG's are
necessary and the washout is enough of a stall
softener. That test will come soon.
My first VG test position was about 5/8th inch aft of
the template position and only inboard facing VG's.
The second test was with the same VG's, but in the
template position. The third test was with outboard
facing VG's added and at the template position. BTW,
the template position has the leading edge of the VG's
just beyond 4" aft of the leading edge, when measured
with a square.
I also have been putting the VG's only in the valleys
between false ribs and not at the template intervals.
The template has no respect for rib position and is
slightly closer together, or double spaced wider if
fewer VG's are used. I expect that will be my next
test. The exact template position regardless of rib
positions.
My theory is that the LE inboard facing VG's are the
most effective due to the span wise flow of air
inboard on the upper surface. Many aircraft have VG's
in only one direction. So far that theory stands.
Adding the outboard pointed VG's improved the stall
quality a little, but didn't lower the speed one knot.
Becaust they more align with the spanwise flow, they
may only create vortex's when the wing stalls making
the stall more gentle. The rest of the time they may
just add drag. Testing.....
Next, I theorize that the vortex off the VG's works
better in the valleys than on top of the ribs where it
seperates off the wing easier. I haven't tested the
alternative, or the more random template position yet.
So I am re-engineering here again and making more work
for myself, I suppose. But then my plane is
"experimental" and that is what I am doing. It is
part of my fun. :-)
So the tests to follow are to use the exact template
positions, except no center VG's. Then to do full
span VG's and find the difference, if any. Then I
could try the double interval setting for fewer VG's.
Last maybe the inboard only VG's at whatever position
worked best. That sequence may change with results of
course.
One result may be that the center VG's equal the power
on stall speed reduction, and that may be the
necessary application. The question then becomes,
what is the stall quality and is the reward worthy of
the risk? Also, how badly will the VG's get in the
way of fueling and will I have added stress on my
upper window connections and turtledeck by making more
lift there?
Having no center VG's improves the stall warning, but
it also means that the outer 2/3rds of the wing is
doing all the lifting just before the stall. I
haven't looked in flight to see if that meant more
outboard spar bending??? I am busy enough at the
stall....
Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
BTW Michel V., I say "turbo" not in caps since I have
the little turbo. :-) Mine is but a humble turbo and,
unlike me, totally politically correct. Ha ha
--- Randy Daughenbaugh <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com> wrote:
> Kurt,
> I am not sure that I even know enough to be
> dangerous,,,but,.....
>
> I was told by someone whom I credited with some
> knowledge that VG's don't
> affect stall speed if installed at the correct point
> - chord wise. As I
> understand it, there is a point about 10% of chord
> back where the air is
> changing from laminar to turbulent. This is the
> point you want the VG's.
> If you put them ahead of this point, you add drag.
> If you put them too far
> behind this point, they are not as affective.
>
> And as I understand it, on our wings, this point is
> at about the 10% point.
>
> ???
>
> Randy
__________________________________
Message 55
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|
| Subject: | Joe Oakley are you out there? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
John,
Glad you are OK. Is there anything we can learn from
your KF "E ticket" ride?
Kurt S.
--- John Oakley <joakley@ida.net> wrote:
> you must be looking for me. I am here, after trips
> to Seattle phoenix and other places. also got rolled
> up in a kitfox last month, cartwheeled. not
> mine or me at the stick but wow. surly not like Mike
> last week. but still an E ticket ride.
>
> John
Message 56
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| Subject: | Re: VG's - first flight test FYI |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Joa,
Sorry, I got these before you started selling yours.
You probably have already done the testing I am doing
now too.
I have ample pitch athority at the mid CG position I
am testing. I may need more at the fwd CG, but still
have to add the gap seal too. What is interesting is
that I seem to have more pitch authority by over an
inch of stick position with the wing VG's on??? I can
pull to a deeper stall???
So far all that is good. It is just getting the speed
reduction I am not seeing....
Kurt S.
--- Land Shorter <landshorter2@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Is your aircraft truly stalling (breaking) or just
> mushing?...........
>
> After you've played with the wing you should
> consider placing them on the underside of the
> elevator, I think you will notice a big difference
> in your ability to fully flare and to reduce your
> stall speeds.
>
> Joa
> www.landshorter.com
_______________________________
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Message 57
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| Subject: | Re: Speedster elevator -- Lowell |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
OOPs. this was direct.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Speedster elevator -- Lowell
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
>
> Ted, Yes I have the Speedster elevator, but much modified as when I
bought
> the kit I opted for the elevator, but didn't get the speedster package and
> sort of worked up my own set-up.
>
> Attached are 4 pictures of the installation. I put the access door on the
> bottom as that is where I thought it should be. Then I saw the
instructions
> and what the plans called for later. It is a bit of trouble getting into
> the set-up, but did another for a friend and made some mods that simplify
> installation and maintenance if necessary.
>
> Lowell
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ted Palamarek" <temco@telusplanet.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Speedster elevator -- Lowell
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ted Palamarek"
<temco@telusplanet.net>
> >
> > Lowell
> >
> > I assume since you have the Speedster elevator that you also
> > have the electric trim with it. By any chance have you got
> > a photo of the horizontal stab and elevator also showing the
> > trim unit. If so I would appreciate you sending me a copy
> > via E-mail.
> >
> > Thank You
> > Ted
> > Edmonton. Ab
> >
> > DO NOT ARCHIVE
> >
> >
> > <<<<SNIP>>>>
> > I opted for the Speedster elevator when I ordered my kit.
> >
> > Lowell
> >
> >
> > ==============
> > Contributions
> > other
> > ==============
> > ==============
> > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm
> > ==============
> >
> >
>
>
Message 58
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| Subject: | Re: Joe Oakley are you out there? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
John, Is the rolled airplane a yellow Model IV with blue top cowl N90TY.
I understand one was rolled somewhere in the Northwest a month or so ago.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Oakley" <joakley@ida.net>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Joe Oakley are you out there?
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Oakley" <joakley@ida.net>
>
> you must be looking for me. I am here, after trips to Seattle phoenix and
> other places. also got rolled up in a kitfox last month, cartwheeled. not
> mine or me at the stick but wow. surly not like Mike last week. but still
an
> E ticket ride.
>
> John
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
> av8rps@tznet.com
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Joe Oakley are you out there?
>
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: <av8rps@tznet.com>
>
> I've tried to contact Joe Oakley at joakley@ida.net, but get a error and
> returned mail.
>
> Are you out there Joe?
>
> Paul Seehafer
> Wisconsin
>
>
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