Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:26 AM - Re: VG's - Third flight test FYI (Michel Verheughe)
2. 03:20 AM - Re: SV: Kitfox crash (Michel Verheughe)
3. 03:23 AM - Re: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing? (Michel Verheughe)
4. 06:07 AM - Re: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing? (Torgeir Mortensen)
5. 06:28 AM - Re: SV: Kitfox crash (Jerry Liles)
6. 07:24 AM - Re: VG's - Third flight test FYI (Randy Daughenbaugh)
7. 07:41 AM - Re: Classic IV - Problem with 912 Oil Tank (Grant Fluent)
8. 10:23 AM - False ribs/tip rib covering...IV (Lynn Matteson)
9. 11:14 AM - Re: False ribs/tip rib covering...IV (Grant Fluent)
10. 11:52 AM - Re: Exhaust smell (Jeff)
11. 11:57 AM - Flaps - No Flaps (George Wells)
12. 01:06 PM - Re: Exhaust smell (Torgeir Mortensen)
13. 01:17 PM - Sideslip WAS: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing? (Michel Verheughe)
14. 01:20 PM - Re: Flaps - No Flaps (Lowell Fitt)
15. 01:21 PM - Re: SV: Kitfox crash (Michel Verheughe)
16. 01:31 PM - Re: Exhaust smell (Michel Verheughe)
17. 01:36 PM - Re: Flaps - No Flaps (Larry Huntley)
18. 01:44 PM - Re: Sideslip WAS: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing? (Torgeir Mortensen)
19. 02:19 PM - Re: Flaps - No Flaps (Torgeir Mortensen)
20. 02:26 PM - Re: Flaps - No Flaps (Jerry Liles)
21. 02:29 PM - Re: Classic IV - Problem with 912 Oil Tank (Torgeir Mortensen)
22. 02:39 PM - Re: A lesson from a crow (Larry Huntley)
23. 03:03 PM - Re: VG's - Third flight test FYI (Torgeir Mortensen)
24. 03:15 PM - Re: False ribs/tip rib covering...IV (Lynn Matteson)
25. 07:02 PM - Re: Classic IV - Problem with 912 Oil Tank (neflyer48)
26. 07:27 PM - Re: VG's - Third flight test FYI (kurt schrader)
27. 10:19 PM - Re: Classic IV - Problem with 912 Oil Tank (Ted Palamarek)
28. 11:24 PM - Re: Flaps - No Flaps (SOURDOSTAN@aol.com)
29. 11:47 PM - Skystar website (Joel Mapes)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: VG's - Third flight test FYI |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
kurt schrader wrote:
> Now it is like luffing your sail (Is that the right
> sailing term Michel?)
Aye, Captain! :-)
Thanks for the report, Kurt, interesting stuff. But be careful up there, I hope
you do that at a safe altitude. Good luck with your foam fairing.
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox crash |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Michael Gibbs wrote:
> No, all of the seat belts and associated attachments held firm. The
> instrument panel broke loose and some of the tubing around the cabin
> area also broke, which is what I think made the face-to-panel contact
> possible.
Thanks Mike. My instructor likes to fly with an inflatable lifejacket. I
understand him, he lives across the fjord and flies over it nearly daily. But
he also says that, in case of crash landing, he would first inflate (pull the
rope) his jacket, hoping it would work like an airbag. What do you think? If
you had one and time to inflate it, would it have helped?
Speedy recovery, friend!
Michel
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Rick wrote:
> FYI in a model 5
> you can exceed 2000pfm decent in a slide slip and visibility is super.
Wow! I only get 1,000 fpm in my model 3 when I have the rudder fully pressed.
Maybe the different wing types we have, Rick.
Cheers,
Michel
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen <torgemor@online.no>
Hi Michel,
Just bank a "little" more..
When I started flying my Fox, also did that, until my instructor
demonstrated how this should be done...
With my model II, you'll easy make 2000' -and more.. Do some practice -at
altitude.. :)
Cheers
Torgeir.
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 12:20:11 +0200, Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
>
> Rick wrote:
>> FYI in a model 5
>> you can exceed 2000pfm decent in a slide slip and visibility is super.
>
> Wow! I only get 1,000 fpm in my model 3 when I have the rudder fully
> pressed.
> Maybe the different wing types we have, Rick.
>
> Cheers,
> Michel
>
>
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox crash |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jerry Liles <wliles@bayou.com>
I bet it would get awfully tight in the cockpit with an inflated life
preserver, especially if there were two of them. I also wonder what
will happen to the vest and the pilot/passenger if he's wearing a
properly tightened seat and shoulder harness. Might be tough to
breathe. I'd try it out on the ground first to see if you can still
breathe and control the plane with the vest inflated. It might work,
but I'd want to know before the first use. Maybe you could secure a
vest over the instrument panel and inflate it there before impact.
Jerry Liles
Michel Verheughe wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
>
>Michael Gibbs wrote:
>
>
>>No, all of the seat belts and associated attachments held firm. The
>>instrument panel broke loose and some of the tubing around the cabin
>>area also broke, which is what I think made the face-to-panel contact
>>possible.
>>
>>
>
>Thanks Mike. My instructor likes to fly with an inflatable lifejacket. I
>understand him, he lives across the fjord and flies over it nearly daily. But
>he also says that, in case of crash landing, he would first inflate (pull the
>rope) his jacket, hoping it would work like an airbag. What do you think? If
>you had one and time to inflate it, would it have helped?
>
>Speedy recovery, friend!
>
>Michel
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | VG's - Third flight test FYI |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Kurt,
You ARE making a project of it! Thanks for sharing your findings.
I know I am not an experienced enough pilot to note the subtleties of flight
that you are looking for and finding. I look forward to your conclusions.
Randy
.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kurt schrader
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: VG's - Third flight test FYI
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
<smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Hi Randy,
I think your info is mostly correct, but I haven't
been descriptive enough in what I am doing. First the
manufacturer of the VG's guarantees they will work and
gives testimonials of lower stall speeds on other
aircraft. They claim to achieve the lower speed I am
looking for. They also provided a generic template
for the Kitfox/Rans aircraft and describe the "sweet
spot" as 8-10% of cord as you were told.
What I have been doing is looking for the minimum VG's
that will do the job as well as the best position on
my plane. I have been avoiding VG's in the center
because I like the buffet just before stall for the
warning and the more gentle stall. I know I am giving
up some speed decrease for it, but it shouldn't be
that much. ??? A little power eliminates that
inboard stall. But then, maybe full span VG's are
necessary and the washout is enough of a stall
softener. That test will come soon.
My first VG test position was about 5/8th inch aft of
the template position and only inboard facing VG's.
The second test was with the same VG's, but in the
template position. The third test was with outboard
facing VG's added and at the template position. BTW,
the template position has the leading edge of the VG's
just beyond 4" aft of the leading edge, when measured
with a square.
I also have been putting the VG's only in the valleys
between false ribs and not at the template intervals.
The template has no respect for rib position and is
slightly closer together, or double spaced wider if
fewer VG's are used. I expect that will be my next
test. The exact template position regardless of rib
positions.
My theory is that the LE inboard facing VG's are the
most effective due to the span wise flow of air
inboard on the upper surface. Many aircraft have VG's
in only one direction. So far that theory stands.
Adding the outboard pointed VG's improved the stall
quality a little, but didn't lower the speed one knot.
Becaust they more align with the spanwise flow, they
may only create vortex's when the wing stalls making
the stall more gentle. The rest of the time they may
just add drag. Testing.....
Next, I theorize that the vortex off the VG's works
better in the valleys than on top of the ribs where it
seperates off the wing easier. I haven't tested the
alternative, or the more random template position yet.
So I am re-engineering here again and making more work
for myself, I suppose. But then my plane is
"experimental" and that is what I am doing. It is
part of my fun. :-)
So the tests to follow are to use the exact template
positions, except no center VG's. Then to do full
span VG's and find the difference, if any. Then I
could try the double interval setting for fewer VG's.
Last maybe the inboard only VG's at whatever position
worked best. That sequence may change with results of
course.
One result may be that the center VG's equal the power
on stall speed reduction, and that may be the
necessary application. The question then becomes,
what is the stall quality and is the reward worthy of
the risk? Also, how badly will the VG's get in the
way of fueling and will I have added stress on my
upper window connections and turtledeck by making more
lift there?
Having no center VG's improves the stall warning, but
it also means that the outer 2/3rds of the wing is
doing all the lifting just before the stall. I
haven't looked in flight to see if that meant more
outboard spar bending??? I am busy enough at the
stall....
Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
BTW Michel V., I say "turbo" not in caps since I have
the little turbo. :-) Mine is but a humble turbo and,
unlike me, totally politically correct. Ha ha
--- Randy Daughenbaugh <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com> wrote:
> Kurt,
> I am not sure that I even know enough to be
> dangerous,,,but,.....
>
> I was told by someone whom I credited with some
> knowledge that VG's don't
> affect stall speed if installed at the correct point
> - chord wise. As I
> understand it, there is a point about 10% of chord
> back where the air is
> changing from laminar to turbulent. This is the
> point you want the VG's.
> If you put them ahead of this point, you add drag.
> If you put them too far
> behind this point, they are not as affective.
>
> And as I understand it, on our wings, this point is
> at about the 10% point.
>
> ???
>
> Randy
__________________________________
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Classic IV - Problem with 912 Oil Tank |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Grant Fluent <gjfpilot@yahoo.com>
Thanks Torgeir. I cut the tube where the hose
attaches, shortened it and welded it back together. I
plan on pressure testing it today. If I understand the
912/912S correctly, it is crankcase pressure that
provides the force for circulating the oil into and
out of the tank? I plan on removing the top from the
tank, hooking a plugged hose to the end of the tube,
and testing the hose fitting to 50 psi.
If I'm wrong about the crankcase pressure, will
someone please jump in here and set me straight??
Thanks again,
Grant Fluent
Newcastle, NE
Classic IV 912S
--- Torgeir Mortensen <torgemor@online.no> wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen
> <torgemor@online.no>
>
> Hi Grant,
>
> Sorry for late reply.
>
> He removed the original stud, by just cutting the
> "silver soldered" tube
> as he don't wanted to spoil the cadmium plated
> silver soldering. He then
> welded a new stud to the tube to take a banjo
> fitting further connected to
> the original rubber housing. The banjo bolt is
> lockwired, and finally
> looks and work fine.
>
> Torgeir.
>
>
> On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 07:10:10 -0700 (PDT), Grant
> Fluent
> <gjfpilot@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Grant Fluent
> <gjfpilot@yahoo.com>
> >
> > Torgeir,
> > Thanks for the pictures. Do you know what kind
> of
> > fitting your friend used on the tank? Is it a 37
> > degree AN fitting?
> > I looked at the fitting that was supplied with
> the
> > tank and I don't think I can shorten it enough
> without
> > also having to heat it with a torch. I am going to
> try
> > to find a different fitting first.
> > Grant Fluent
> > Newcastle, NE
> > Classic IV 912S
> >
> do not archive
>
>
>
> Contributions
> any other
> Forums.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/chat
>
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | False ribs/tip rib covering...IV |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
I have a concern about installing the false bottom ribs on my IV, in
the bay that contains the lift strut brackets. I can see putting in the
outside two false ribs in this bay, but the middle one looks like it
would interfere with the lift strut bracket or possibly the fabric
reinforcement plate. How did you folks handle this area?
Also, and this one's a little hard to explain.... in thinking ahead to
covering the tip rib when using the removable wingtip option, how do
you deal with fastening the fabric to the tip rib?
If I install the wingtip screw-backing material under the outer portion
of the capstrip, before covering with fabric, the fabric will have to
be wrapped over this aluminum strip and be Poly-tak'ed to the
underside. That leaves a small triangle of space under the fabric where
it goes from the edge of the capstrip down and out to the edge of the
aluminum backing strip. When installing the wingtip later, this
triangle of unsupported fabric will then be forced down by the edge of
the wingtip and be under chafing pressure until it wears through.
I envision drilling and clecoing the backing material to the underside
of the tip rib capstrip, prior to covering (and fitting the flaperon
hinge brackets), then when covering is complete (and fabric is cemented
to underside of the capstrip), I can then rivet the backing material in
place and install wingtips and avoid a chafing problem. I suppose I
could lay down the finishing tape over the edge of the capstrip and
onto the backing strip at this point, further reinforcing that area.
Am I being too paranoid over this chafing problem? And does anyone have
a different/better idea?
Lynn
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: False ribs/tip rib covering...IV |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Grant Fluent <gjfpilot@yahoo.com>
Lynn,
I have pictures that I can send you of everything
that you mentioned. I had to trim my bottom false ribs
where they met the strut attach brackets. My wing tips
are also removable and I wrapped the fabric around the
metal strips. You can use a monokote iron to form the
fabric down into the corner.
Grant Fluent
Newcastle, NE
Classic IV 912S
--- Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net> wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson
> <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
> I have a concern about installing the false bottom
> ribs on my IV, in
> the bay that contains the lift strut brackets. I can
> see putting in the
> outside two false ribs in this bay, but the middle
> one looks like it
> would interfere with the lift strut bracket or
> possibly the fabric
> reinforcement plate. How did you folks handle this
> area?
>
> Also, and this one's a little hard to explain.... in
> thinking ahead to
> covering the tip rib when using the removable
> wingtip option, how do
> you deal with fastening the fabric to the tip rib?
> If I install the wingtip screw-backing material
> under the outer portion
> of the capstrip, before covering with fabric, the
> fabric will have to
> be wrapped over this aluminum strip and be
> Poly-tak'ed to the
> underside. That leaves a small triangle of space
> under the fabric where
> it goes from the edge of the capstrip down and out
> to the edge of the
> aluminum backing strip. When installing the wingtip
> later, this
> triangle of unsupported fabric will then be forced
> down by the edge of
> the wingtip and be under chafing pressure until it
> wears through.
> I envision drilling and clecoing the backing
> material to the underside
> of the tip rib capstrip, prior to covering (and
> fitting the flaperon
> hinge brackets), then when covering is complete (and
> fabric is cemented
> to underside of the capstrip), I can then rivet the
> backing material in
> place and install wingtips and avoid a chafing
> problem. I suppose I
> could lay down the finishing tape over the edge of
> the capstrip and
> onto the backing strip at this point, further
> reinforcing that area.
> Am I being too paranoid over this chafing problem?
> And does anyone have
> a different/better idea?
>
> Lynn
>
>
>
> Contributions
> any other
> Forums.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/chat
>
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox-List:Exhaust smell |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jeff" <jeffthomas@ntlworld.com>
Does anyone else experience this?
I have a Rotax 582 powered model 3 Kitfox and can almost always smell
exhaust fumes when I am flying. This is not imagination as passengers have
commented on the smell too. The fire wall seems to be intact and the exhaust
shows no signs of cracks or splits. There is a straight extension about 6
inch (15 cm) long on the end of the exhaust (which was there when I bought
the aircraft).
The end of the exhaust extends downwards for about a foot (30cm) below the
left side of the engine cowl, (and as a result I get a build up of twostroke
oil stains on the port undercarriage). Can anyone suggest how I might get
rid of this problem, or am I stuck with it?
Regards
Jeff
Message 11
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| Subject: | Flaps - No Flaps |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "George Wells" <georgewells@adelphia.net>
Can I get some opinions on both Flap and No Flap use during landings and
take offs for a model 4.
Thanks,
George
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox-List:Exhaust smell |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen <torgemor@online.no>
Hi Jeff,
This is a known and very much discussed problem. The extension you have
installed is also a part of getting read of the exhaust. I've got a mod II
with same "problem", however, this change from time to time. At the moment
I can't smell any exhaust, but sometime I can. Some people have pointed
out that the opening for the rubber band might be to blame, but I doubt
this is the problem. If I'm taxing downwind I can smell the typical two
stroke -very well. I've been thinking about the two knees in the exhaust
system. This because last summer I've made some more hours on the Fox,
-and "guess" that those bends is somewhat more adapted and seals better.
This, because the smell is more or less "nonexistent" now.
Hmm. Just remember that I've re torque the exhaust "manifold" this summer
(the three bolts on each cylinder), as there was a little "black oil"
around the gasket where there is only one bolt.
About the oil/exhaust spillage on the undercarriage, well I've seen people
using the aluminum tape on the leg, cause the exhaust remains is easier to
remove from the alu-tape. However, I'm using a rag with some white spirit,
most effective.
Regards
Torgeir.
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 19:58:57 +0100, Jeff <jeffthomas@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jeff" <jeffthomas@ntlworld.com>
>
> Does anyone else experience this?
>
> I have a Rotax 582 powered model 3 Kitfox and can almost always smell
> exhaust fumes when I am flying. This is not imagination as passengers
> have
> commented on the smell too. The fire wall seems to be intact and the
> exhaust
> shows no signs of cracks or splits. There is a straight extension about 6
> inch (15 cm) long on the end of the exhaust (which was there when I
> bought
> the aircraft).
>
> The end of the exhaust extends downwards for about a foot (30cm) below
> the
> left side of the engine cowl, (and as a result I get a build up of
> twostroke
> oil stains on the port undercarriage). Can anyone suggest how I might get
> rid of this problem, or am I stuck with it?
>
> Regards
>
> Jeff
>
>
--
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Message 13
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| Subject: | Sideslip WAS: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Torgeir Mortensen wrote:
> Just bank a "little" more..
Hei Torgeir!
If I bank more, won't I be turning?
> When I started flying my Fox, also did that, until my instructor
> demonstrated how this should be done...
... do you care to come south and be my instructor? :-)
I will try, Torgeir, but I had the impression that the sideslip technique was
to press the pedal in one direction and bank in the other, and keep a straight
heading by adjusting the angle of bank.
Cheers,
Michel
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Flaps - No Flaps |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
Hi George,
I don't use flaps at all. I have them tied off with a Nylon tiewrap. I
believe others do use them, so you might get some input from them. I use
slips to lose altitude when necessary.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Wells" <georgewells@adelphia.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Flaps - No Flaps
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "George Wells"
<georgewells@adelphia.net>
>
> Can I get some opinions on both Flap and No Flap use during landings and
> take offs for a model 4.
> Thanks,
> George
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox crash |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Jerry Liles wrote:
> I bet it would get awfully tight in the cockpit with an inflated life
> preserver, especially if there were two of them.
I agree with you, Jerry. I am not too at ease with that inflated life jacket
theory. I just wanted to see what you guys were thinking. But you're right, the
only way to know is to try safely on the ground and with someone beside you
that can help you to release your harness if you should suffocate. I'll try
that one day.
Cheers,
Michel
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox-List:Exhaust smell |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Jeff wrote:
> Can anyone suggest how I might get rid of this problem, or am I stuck with it?
I also have a model 3 with 582, Jeff. I also smell exhaust during climb but not
at cruise. I think it is exhaust, it smells oily and warm. But that's the way
my plane smells when I come in, that's the way my clothes smell after. As a
matter of fact, I am now home after a day of good flying, several small trips
with friends and ... I can still smell my plane, I love that smell! :-)
As for the stain on the undercarriage, yes, that's our trademark, my friend! :-)
When I push my plane back in the hangar, I usually go over the prop, the cowl,
the windscreen and wing leading edges with a wet rag and remove death insects.
After that, I take a few drops of fuel from the gascolator, on another rag, and
I clean the oil from the left undercarriage. It's all in the practice of a true
love for a plane! :-)
Cheers,
Michel
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Flaps - No Flaps |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Larry Huntley" <asq1@adelphia.net>
My Soob Fox is a bit light in the tail (42#) ,so If I use flaps landing,I
can't get the tail down ahead of the mains,resulting in 3 light bounces
before settling down. I use a bit of flaps on takeoff,maybe 1/3??
Larry Huntley,Kitfox 4-1200,EA81, 400hrs,Dundee,NY,USA
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Wells" <georgewells@adelphia.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Flaps - No Flaps
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "George Wells"
<georgewells@adelphia.net>
>
> Can I get some opinions on both Flap and No Flap use during landings and
> take offs for a model 4.
> Thanks,
> George
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Sideslip WAS: Model II ailerons/flaps UP landing? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen <torgemor@online.no>
Hei Michel,
Of cause, but you'll know I've to find some time..
The side slip is used for runway alignment, and the forward slip is used
to lose altitude!
Hmm. Well, here is a link about fwd. vs. side slip, I'll think this one
is better than my slow explanation.. :)
http://www.whittsflying.com/Page3.25Skids%20or%20Slips.htm
Hope this clear up my friend.
Cheers.
Torgeir.
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 22:14:03 +0200, Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
>
> Torgeir Mortensen wrote:
>> Just bank a "little" more..
>
> Hei Torgeir!
> If I bank more, won't I be turning?
>
>> When I started flying my Fox, also did that, until my instructor
>> demonstrated how this should be done...
>
> ... do you care to come south and be my instructor? :-)
> I will try, Torgeir, but I had the impression that the sideslip
> technique was
> to press the pedal in one direction and bank in the other, and keep a
> straight
> heading by adjusting the angle of bank.
>
> Cheers,
> Michel
>
>
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Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Flaps - No Flaps |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen <torgemor@online.no>
Right you are Larry, good input here, I've forgot this one.
Of course, the old models I, II and III, but also "some" true for the mod
4. If you are using flap, you would not have enough elevator authority to
get the tail down, and makes a three point almost impossible.
Regards
Torgeir.
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 16:37:47 -0400, Larry Huntley <asq1@adelphia.net>
wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Larry Huntley" <asq1@adelphia.net>
>
> My Soob Fox is a bit light in the tail (42#) ,so If I use flaps landing,I
> can't get the tail down ahead of the mains,resulting in 3 light bounces
> before settling down. I use a bit of flaps on takeoff,maybe 1/3??
> Larry Huntley,Kitfox 4-1200,EA81,
> 400hrs,Dundee,NY,USA
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "George Wells" <georgewells@adelphia.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Flaps - No Flaps
>
>
>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "George Wells"
> <georgewells@adelphia.net>
>>
>> Can I get some opinions on both Flap and No Flap use during landings and
>> take offs for a model 4.
>> Thanks,
>> George
>>
>>
>
>
--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Flaps - No Flaps |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jerry Liles <wliles@bayou.com>
I've limited Tootie Mae to 10 deg flaps and routinely use it to shorten
takeoff and landing roll. That gives a useful increase in lift and
decreases stall speed a bit without getting into the poor control
response area. It doesn't, however, add a whole lot of additional
drag. Foxes and Avids tend to begin to lose aileron effectiveness at
low speeds with more deployment and there can be a problem with control
with excess deployment, especially beyond 15deg . 10 degrees works for
me and I use it all the time. If I need to get down in a hurry a side
slip can't be beat, and it's a lot more fun than just jerking on a
handle. Many pilots don't or won't use flaps because of the control
issue, but I bet they would if they just limited deployment.
Jerry Liles
Lowell Fitt wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
>
>Hi George,
>
>I don't use flaps at all. I have them tied off with a Nylon tiewrap. I
>believe others do use them, so you might get some input from them. I use
>slips to lose altitude when necessary.
>
>Lowell
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "George Wells" <georgewells@adelphia.net>
>To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Kitfox-List: Flaps - No Flaps
>
>
>
>
>>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "George Wells"
>>
>>
><georgewells@adelphia.net>
>
>
>>Can I get some opinions on both Flap and No Flap use during landings and
>>take offs for a model 4.
>>Thanks,
>>George
>>
>>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Classic IV - Problem with 912 Oil Tank |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen <torgemor@online.no>
My pleasure Grant.
I'm not very familiar with the 912, but I'll think there is an oil pump
right behind the oil filter generating the oil pressure.
Found an exploded view of the 912 in my old CPS (California Power System)
catalogue. :)
Cheers
Torgeir.
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 07:41:01 -0700 (PDT), Grant Fluent
<gjfpilot@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Grant Fluent <gjfpilot@yahoo.com>
>
> Thanks Torgeir. I cut the tube where the hose
> attaches, shortened it and welded it back together. I
> plan on pressure testing it today. If I understand the
> 912/912S correctly, it is crankcase pressure that
> provides the force for circulating the oil into and
> out of the tank? I plan on removing the top from the
> tank, hooking a plugged hose to the end of the tube,
> and testing the hose fitting to 50 psi.
> If I'm wrong about the crankcase pressure, will
> someone please jump in here and set me straight??
> Thanks again,
> Grant Fluent
> Newcastle, NE
> Classic IV 912S
>
>
> --- Torgeir Mortensen <torgemor@online.no> wrote:
>
>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen
>> <torgemor@online.no>
>>
>> Hi Grant,
>>
>> Sorry for late reply.
>>
>> He removed the original stud, by just cutting the
>> "silver soldered" tube
>> as he don't wanted to spoil the cadmium plated
>> silver soldering. He then
>> welded a new stud to the tube to take a banjo
>> fitting further connected to
>> the original rubber housing. The banjo bolt is
>> lockwired, and finally
>> looks and work fine.
>>
>> Torgeir.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 07:10:10 -0700 (PDT), Grant
>> Fluent
>> <gjfpilot@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Grant Fluent
>> <gjfpilot@yahoo.com>
>> >
>> > Torgeir,
>> > Thanks for the pictures. Do you know what kind
>> of
>> > fitting your friend used on the tank? Is it a 37
>> > degree AN fitting?
>> > I looked at the fitting that was supplied with
>> the
>> > tank and I don't think I can shorten it enough
>> without
>> > also having to heat it with a torch. I am going to
>> try
>> > to find a different fitting first.
>> > Grant Fluent
>> > Newcastle, NE
>> > Classic IV 912S
>> >
>> do not archive
>>
>>
>>
>> Contributions
>> any other
>> Forums.
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/chat
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
>> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm
>> http://www.matronics.com/archives
>> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
>> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
--
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Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: A lesson from a crow |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Larry Huntley" <asq1@adelphia.net>
Interesting Ben. I remember watching Puffins do that and thought the same
thing. On takeoff they just dive off the cliff til their little wings get
going fast enough to fly, then level out and cruise. Hilarious to watch.
Larry Huntley,Kitfox 4-1200,EA81,Dundee,NY,USA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Baltrusaitis" <ben@gmpexpress.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: A lesson from a crow
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ben Baltrusaitis" <ben@gmpexpress.net>
>
> This afternoon I was driving up Rt. 15 North of Williamsport. It's a
beautiful drive among the mountains in PA. I was wishing to be flying
instead of driving, but the scenery is breathtaking anyway. Some of the
leaves are beginning to show some red.
>
>
> It's a four lane highway with a generous median in most areas except for
the several spots where they had to cut into the side of the mountain to
build the road. I was riding in just such an area when this crow came
smoking across the road and swooped down heading right for the man-made
cliff to my left with a guard rail on top. The little devil was heading
right for the rocks about 60 feet from the top. I watched to see what would
happen and wondered if this was some type of crow terrorist training. When
he was maybe 30 feet from impact he pulled up and glided to the upper-most
rock just below the guard rail. He alighted on the rock and folded his wings
without as much as a lean to get his balance. What a lesson in grace and
airspeed manipulation.
>
>
> Gosh, this is what we need. Instead of constructing our airports in flat
valleys with trees, wires, and houses on the approach, we need to put them
on mountains with a cliff right off the end of the runway. This way we can
come in low, like the crow, and pull up so we lose all of our vertical speed
just as we reach runway height. Nose over and touch down with less than 10
mph forward speed!
>
>
> I wonder. How high a cliff we would need for a 757?
>
> Ben
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: VG's - Third flight test FYI |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen <torgemor@online.no>
Hi Kurt,
True, you are a real experimenter!!
I've been reading your report several times, -and very interesting..
I'm just curious to the result when you'll move the VG's more forward.
Leaving the center section give a "free" stall warning system, ah. smart!
Cheers
Torgeir.
On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 14:33:04 -0700 (PDT), kurt schrader
<smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
> <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
>
> Oh yes, it is definately stalling. :-)
>
> I have finished my third test flight and third
> position for the VG's. I now have 100 installed.
> Results:
>
> No good change in stall speed or cruise that I can
> see. Compared to the test with no VG's, my cruise is
> down 2 knots. My stalls are still almost exactly the
> same speed - if anything, higher. I have 3 more tests
> in mind to find the sweet spot.
>
> My ASI is the helo type, so I have good definition of
> airspeeds down to 20 knots. One knot is a needle's
> width on this scale. I do every stall twice for
> consistancy.
>
> The quality of the stall with VG's is very different
> though. I can pull the stick back into the stall and
> hear (when at idle) the wind seperate and re-attach.
> Before it was the typical stall. A soft break with
> nose drop and a mild left roll. I really didn't hear
> anything or feel anything except the lift falling off
> and the break/roll. It was best to keep the ball in
> trim.
>
> Now it is like luffing your sail (Is that the right
> sailing term Michel?) or a large flag popping in the
> wind. I can pull into a deeper stall and ride it like
> a bucking horse with the nose bobbing and airspeed
> changing from 42-49 clean. While in the stall, I can
> use the rudder and flapperons together or
> independently and still steer, though I am going down
> and making funny noises. It doesn't seem to fall off
> either way, or quit going where I want, except for
> down.
>
> It is the sound of the airflow re-attaching that gives
> the pop, and then the turtledeck rumbles as you go
> back into the stall. The air seperates there first.
> (I put no VG's across the center section)
>
> I have to pull all power, or my stall can be up to 5
> knots slower for each flap setting. I don't do any
> stalls for too long because it is a bit hard on the
> plane IMHO. But I have lost up to 500' once by
> holding the stall for a bit to read the gauges and
> play a little with stability. With the nose bobbing,
> I figure the VSI is a waste of time though.
>
> It is a bit hard on me too, since I am still looking
> for RPM, GB temps, oil pressure, other aircraft,
> altitude, etc while stalled and checking airspeeds.
> Busy!
>
> I haven't tried yet, but it doesn't seem that the
> plane would be able to spin, at least with this mid
> CG. It could turn, then recover, turn again, with
> each bob and you could just steer out of it. That is
> my guess by the feel of it.
>
> But I still want it all. I would like to see a power
> off stall of 5 KIAS slower with each flap setting. My
> goal was 30 KIAS at gross. I am still at 35 KIAS at
> 1300# instead.
>
> More later. My foam strut fairings are in! Report on
> that to follow too.
>
> Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
>
> --- Land Shorter <landshorter2@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Is your aircraft truly stalling (breaking) or just
>> mushing? VGs reduce stall speed by allowing the
>> aircraft to fly at a higher angle of attack before
>> the wing stalls (generally around an extra 2
>> degrees). If your elevator won't allow your plane
>> to reach this greater angle of attack (because of
>> size, travel, or localized flow ) then you won't see
>> a reduced stall speed (but you will gain the other
>> great control and safety benefits that you've been
>> noticing).
>>
>> After you've played with the wing you should
>> consider placing them on the underside of the
>> elevator, I think you will notice a big difference
>> in your ability to fully flare and to reduce your
>> stall speeds.
>>
>> Joa
>> www.landshorter.com
>>
>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> One thing that is coming out of the tests. After
>> stalls, I can recover to altitude and do clearing
>> turns power on at 42-50 KIAS no problem. Even 30
>> degrees AOB and the ball pretty far off center are
>> no problem. The plane feels solid and not scary at all.
>
>
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Message 24
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|
| Subject: | Re: False ribs/tip rib covering...IV |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Thanks, Grant ...are they digital or paper...need an address?
Lynn
On Saturday, September 25, 2004, at 02:11 PM, Grant Fluent wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Grant Fluent <gjfpilot@yahoo.com>
>
> Lynn,
> I have pictures that I can send you of everything
> that you mentioned. I had to trim my bottom false ribs
> where they met the strut attach brackets. My wing tips
> are also removable and I wrapped the fabric around the
> metal strips. You can use a monokote iron to form the
> fabric down into the corner.
> Grant Fluent
> Newcastle, NE
> Classic IV 912S
>
>
> --- Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net> wrote:
>
>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson
>> <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>>
>> I have a concern about installing the false bottom
>> ribs on my IV, in
>> the bay that contains the lift strut brackets.
>> Contributions
>> any other
>> Forums.
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/chat
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
>> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm
>> http://www.matronics.com/archives
>> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
>> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> >
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Classic IV - Problem with 912 Oil Tank |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "neflyer48" <neflyer48@cableone.net>
You are right Grant, Crankcase pressure pumps oil into the tank. The oil
pump sucks the oil out of the tank. The tank is vented.
Hope this helps.
Jerry Kohles
M3 912
----- Original Message -----
From: "Grant Fluent" <gjfpilot@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Classic IV - Problem with 912 Oil Tank
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Grant Fluent <gjfpilot@yahoo.com>
>
> Thanks Torgeir. I cut the tube where the hose
> attaches, shortened it and welded it back together. I
> plan on pressure testing it today. If I understand the
> 912/912S correctly, it is crankcase pressure that
> provides the force for circulating the oil into and
> out of the tank? I plan on removing the top from the
> tank, hooking a plugged hose to the end of the tube,
> and testing the hose fitting to 50 psi.
> If I'm wrong about the crankcase pressure, will
> someone please jump in here and set me straight??
> Thanks again,
> Grant Fluent
> Newcastle, NE
> Classic IV 912S
>
>
> --- Torgeir Mortensen <torgemor@online.no> wrote:
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen
> > <torgemor@online.no>
> >
> > Hi Grant,
> >
> > Sorry for late reply.
> >
> > He removed the original stud, by just cutting the
> > "silver soldered" tube
> > as he don't wanted to spoil the cadmium plated
> > silver soldering. He then
> > welded a new stud to the tube to take a banjo
> > fitting further connected to
> > the original rubber housing. The banjo bolt is
> > lockwired, and finally
> > looks and work fine.
> >
> > Torgeir.
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 07:10:10 -0700 (PDT), Grant
> > Fluent
> > <gjfpilot@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Grant Fluent
> > <gjfpilot@yahoo.com>
> > >
> > > Torgeir,
> > > Thanks for the pictures. Do you know what kind
> > of
> > > fitting your friend used on the tank? Is it a 37
> > > degree AN fitting?
> > > I looked at the fitting that was supplied with
> > the
> > > tank and I don't think I can shorten it enough
> > without
> > > also having to heat it with a torch. I am going to
> > try
> > > to find a different fitting first.
> > > Grant Fluent
> > > Newcastle, NE
> > > Classic IV 912S
> > >
> > do not archive
> >
> >
> >
> > Contributions
> > any other
> > Forums.
> >
> > http://www.matronics.com/chat
> >
> > http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm
> > http://www.matronics.com/archives
> > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: VG's - Third flight test FYI |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Thanks Torgier,
Well today was not a real test day. Some people went
ahead and scheduled airshows at 2 different airports
within my test area. What could I do? Well, I
thought I would test the pilot food and look at other
planes instead and call it a cross country engine
endurance check.
I did make an offer to swap even for a mint condition,
dark green Staggerwing Beech, but somehow got turned
down.
I might get in one more test tomorrow.
Kurt S. S-5/VG'ed
Do not archive
--- Torgeir Mortensen <torgemor@online.no> wrote:
> Hi Kurt,
>
> True, you are a real experimenter!!
>
> I've been reading your report several times, -and
> very interesting..
>
> I'm just curious to the result when you'll move the
> VG's more forward.
>
> Leaving the center section give a "free" stall
> warning system, ah. smart!
>
> Cheers
>
> Torgeir.
Message 27
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| Subject: | Classic IV - Problem with 912 Oil Tank |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ted Palamarek" <temco@telusplanet.net>
Grant
Looking at the break down of the 912 it would appear that
the oil is returned to the tanks solely by the pressure
build up in the crankcase --- mostly due to blow by gases in
the cylinders. Because there are no restrictions in the line
from the bottom of the crankcase via the lines to the oil
tanks, I can not see how the return pressure can be more
that a couple of PSI as the oil tank eventually vents to
atmosphere. Testing to 50 PSI --- I believe is excessive as
these types of pressures could not exist in the return line.
The oil pump is in the supply line from the tank to the
engine.
Item 9.3 Lubrication System. -- in the 912 manual has a
good write up and diagram of the complete oil circulation
system.
Ted
Edmonton, Ab
<<<<SNIP>>>>
> If I'm wrong about the crankcase pressure, will
> someone please jump in here and set me straight??
> Thanks again,
> Grant Fluent
> Newcastle, NE
> Classic IV 912S
>
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Flaps - No Flaps |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: SOURDOSTAN@aol.com
I use 5 deg. flaps for all takeoffs and landings, dumping them right after
touchdown or takeoff. I use 10 deg. for wheel landings which works really well
for me because it pitches up the tail just enough to grease in for a wheel
landing and make it stick. I had a harder time wheel landing before discovering
the use of more flaps. For quick let down I will use full flaps (30 deg.)
This maintains my forward visibility in a tight situation such as a narrow
canyon, where I want to keep the plane in sight ahead of me, or where other planes
are coming in from the sides (busy traffic area). For a short field approach
I use up to 20 deg. to stick it right on the end. Flaps are a great tool to
be used with other tools such as slips, etc., but like anything else, go out
and practice, including stalls and slow flight, before using them in a new or
anxious situation.
Stan Specht
N16KC "Columbine"
Kitfox Model IV Speedster 912ul
760+ hours
Message 29
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Joel Mapes" <FoxFloatFlyer@hotmail.com>
I've noticed that www.skystar.com is now displaying an "Under Construction"
page. Anyone know what's going on with skystar?
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