---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 10/07/04: 34 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:42 AM - However the cockpit noise level is so high that my intercom is on all the time(vox) (Rex & Jan Shaw) 2. 01:09 AM - The alternative is to purge the brakes of the original brake fluid (Rex & Jan Shaw) 3. 03:23 AM - Re: Re: VG's, flight testing - to be continued (Fox5flyer) 4. 03:25 AM - Re: Re: Wing strut fairing tests (AlbertaIV@aol.com) 5. 03:39 AM - SV: Re: Wing strut fairing tests (Michel Verheughe) 6. 04:58 AM - Cockpit noise (Lmar) 7. 04:59 AM - Trailering (Lmar) 8. 05:55 AM - Re: Cockpit Noise Reduction (Gill Levesque) 9. 06:01 AM - Re: Cockpit Noise Reduction (Gill Levesque) 10. 07:19 AM - Re: Re: VG's, flight testing - to be continued (Rick) 11. 07:21 AM - Re: Re: Wing strut fairing tests (Rick) 12. 07:26 AM - Re: Trailering (KITFOXPILOT@att.net) 13. 07:32 AM - Re: Re: VG's, flight testing - to be continued (Lowell Fitt) 14. 07:34 AM - Re: Hangar door (KITFOXPILOT@att.net) 15. 07:35 AM - Re: Re: Wing strut fairing tests (kurt schrader) 16. 07:42 AM - Re: Re: VG's, flight testing - to be continued (kurt schrader) 17. 07:52 AM - Re: Re: VG's, flight testing - to be continued (kurt schrader) 18. 08:09 AM - Re: Re: VG's, flight testing - to be continued (kurt schrader) 19. 09:04 AM - Re: Re: VG's, flight testing - to be continued () 20. 09:35 AM - Re: Re: VG's, flight testing - to be continued (kurt schrader) 21. 09:50 AM - Re: Re: VG's, flight testing - to be continued (kerrjohna@comcast.net) 22. 12:13 PM - Re: Trailering (kitfoxjunky) 23. 12:33 PM - Re: Hangar door (Larry Huntley) 24. 02:01 PM - Re: Trailering (flier) 25. 04:04 PM - Re: Re: Wing strut fairing tests (AlbertaIV@aol.com) 26. 04:25 PM - Re: Do you know anyone in the military there? () 27. 06:29 PM - Re: Cockpit Noise Reduction (Marc Arseneault) 28. 06:34 PM - Re: Castrol TTS for two strock engines (icaza francisco) 29. 07:51 PM - Re: VG flight testing (Stu Bryant) 30. 08:30 PM - Re: Re: VG flight testing (Land Shorter) 31. 08:45 PM - Re: Trailering (Ceashman@aol.com) 32. 08:49 PM - Re: Re: VG flight testing (Land Shorter) 33. 11:42 PM - Re: Re: Wing strut fairing tests (kurt schrader) 34. 11:44 PM - Re: Re: VG's, flight testing - to be continued (kurt schrader) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:42:03 AM PST US From: "Rex & Jan Shaw" Subject: Kitfox-List: However the cockpit noise level is so high that my intercom is on all the time(vox) --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rex & Jan Shaw" However the cockpit noise level is so high that my intercom is on all the time(vox) and transmits engine noise into the headsets!! Gill I have a MKIV/582 and have no problems. There should be a small hole on the back of the microphone. This lets the noise in from both sides and it cancels. I did have a lot of noise once and designed and fitted a filter in the powerline to the intercom. Are you sure the noise is coming through the microphone ? Rex. rexjan@bigpond.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:09:18 AM PST US From: "Rex & Jan Shaw" Subject: Kitfox-List: The alternative is to purge the brakes of the original brake fluid --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rex & Jan Shaw" The alternative is to purge the brakes of the original brake fluid Thanks Jerry I'll keep the info in mind but I have Aeroshell coming from USA so I just need to get out of trouble for the moment. Rex. rexjan@bigpond.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:23:48 AM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: RE: VG's, flight testing - to be continued --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" Thanks for the great report Kurt. I'll wait for more input before making any decision to purchase them. Darrel > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader > > Well folks, I have completed one clean wing test and 6 > VG test flights using various quantities and positions > for them - 2 patterns as described by VG sellers and 4 > of my own design. I did approximately 50 stalls total > for data. Results: > > At 1300 lbs, my plane stalls around 46 mph IAS clean > and 41 mph IAS full flaps. That was my standard to > compare too. It tends to fall off on the left wing at > the stall. Maybe my weight on that side is enough to > cause that drop. It is an easy stall to catch and I > can stop the roll and stall before 30 degrees of roll. > From that, I hoped for somewhere between the 4 and 12 > mph reduction promised by the VG sellers and better > stall characteristics. > > Several VG patterns gave very good stall > characteristics allowing stalls that were controllable > and safe while fully stalled. They showed no tendancy > to fall off on a wing when power off stalls were > performed. Other patterns just showed less > improvement. However, I could not get a variation of > more than 2 mph + or - in the stalls from the clean > wing standard on any test. I did lose up to 5 mph off > the cruise end though. > > On all but one stall I had enough elevator to fully > stall the plane. The one exception was at a seller's > recommended pattern with full flaps, full up trim, and > CG in the middle. It just wouldn't go below about 45 > mph. > > On the last series, with a seller's recommended VG > pattern, I also did a power on full flap stall to > determine if my ASI was acting properly at low speed. > I was fully controllable to 34 mph IAS with maybe 40% > power on. At 34, the plane stalled suddenly and > rolled hard left. I repeated the test and got the > same results, but caught the stall roll sooner. I > then returned for a full stall landing. On post > flight I discovered that the left wing had shed 21 > VG's (out of 50/wing) from the inboard end. (The VG's > were just taped on and not glued on.) I think it was > the more violent departure with power on and prop > blast that tore them off. FYI, The VG's lost were all > outboard of the wing tank. There were no VG's from > the tanks inboard. I had no problem with the landing > and did not know they were gone until postflight. > > I have removed the VG's for now, but hope to continue > to look for some improvement from them later. Results > do vary with aircraft, but so far I am disappointed in > my results. > > The VG testing is in my logbook and I believe that > allows me to add them on again after I have finished > the 40 hrs testing. If anyone knows different, please > let me know. > > Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo > > > _______________________________ > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! > http://vote.yahoo.com > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:25:07 AM PST US From: AlbertaIV@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: RE: Wing strut fairing tests --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com Do Not Archive << Overall, I have gained 17 mph in cruise this Summer from my radiator scoop and my wing strut fairings. A happy camper. :-) Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo >> Kurt, Excellent stats. I'm not going to quit until I get 138 Knots out of the 582. Don Smythe N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:39:02 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: SV: Kitfox-List: RE: Wing strut fairing tests --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe > From: kurt schrader [smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com] > Overall, I have gained 17 mph in cruise this Summer > from my radiator scoop and my wing strut fairings. A > happy camper. :-) Glad to hear your hard work paid for, Kurt. It is in all the small details that one can reach near perfection. I say, near, because - by definition - perfection is never achieved. And it is just as well because it leaves room to dreams of improvement. Without that, we would be still living in caves, eating raw meat, and fearing that one day the sky may fall on us! :-) Cheers, Michel ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:58:04 AM PST US From: Lmar Subject: Kitfox-List: Cockpit noise --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lmar Have you tried to put a big wind muff on both of your mics? Also, turn the squelch down on the intercom. I have small muff that work well most of the time. With the doors open in flight and one leans over - I get the wind noise being transmitted. I am currently looking into getting muffs from a motorcyle place. Spruce has some for high noise problems at about $12 bucks each. Larry --------------------------------- vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:59:13 AM PST US From: Lmar Subject: Kitfox-List: Trailering --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lmar Is is best to trailer the airplane nose or tail first? What are the advantages? This would be for short 5 - 10 mile distances. Thanks, Larry --------------------------------- vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:55:31 AM PST US From: Gill Levesque Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Cockpit Noise Reduction --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Gill Levesque Steve, Can you elaborate on this? I did cover over the hole on the front with a piece of tape1 It's been this way for a couple of years! If I throtle back from cruise it all works fine!!! Do you have any sounproofing in your plane?? Gil Levesque C-IGVL STEPHEN ZAKRESKI wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: STEPHEN ZAKRESKI Before you spend money, check to make sure your microphone is pointed in the right direction under the muff. SteveZ Calgary ----- Original Message ----- From: Gill Levesque Subject: Kitfox-List: Cockpit Noise Reduction > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Gill Levesque > > Hi All, > > I now have 68hrs. in C-IGVL ,a model 4 -1050 with 582! I love > it!!!!! (Someday Iwill post pics!!!) > > However the cockpit noise level is so high that my intercom is on > all the time(vox) and transmits engine noise into the headsets!! I > have tried a Flightcom,Softcom and Avcom as well as different > headsets!!!I have carpet on the floor,and carpet on the sides of > the boot cowl!( nothing on the lower firewall yet!!! ) > What else can I do to soundproof!! Will an add on exhaust silencer > help?? What about coating the inside of the whole cowl with some > kind of sounproofing material??? Any ideas are appriciated!! > > Gil Levesque > C-IGVL > Ontario ,Canada > > > > Still alive and flyin!!!! > > Gil > > > --------------------------------- > > > _- > _- > _- > _- > ======================================================================== > > > > Still alive and flyin!!!! Gil --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:01:44 AM PST US From: Gill Levesque Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Cockpit Noise Reduction --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Gill Levesque Marc, I have the stock , firewall cover! fibre glass insulation covered in plastic(?) What is a n SP-22N?? What radio are you using? I have a panel mounted(ex-handheld) Delcom 960!! Gil Levesque C-IGVL David Savener wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "David Savener" I've never heard of "bulb seal around the firewall". Could you explain what it is? I am uncomfortable with my airplane's seal(almost nonexistent) that should slow an engine fire's invasion of the cabin!! Dave Savener ----- Original Message ----- From: Marc Arseneault Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Cockpit Noise Reduction --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Marc Arseneault" > Hi Gil, I had the same problem and purchased a Sigtronics High noise P/N SP-22N and it solved my problems. It would also help to have the intercom connected direct instead of running on the batteries. Have you got a bulb seal around the firewall? Besides this, that is about all you can do unless you install a firewall blanket but make sure it is fire resistant. Best Regards, Marc Arseneault Ontario Canada From: Gill Levesque canpilot03@yahoo.ca Reply-To: kitfox-list@matronics.com To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: Kitfox-List: Cockpit Noise Reduction Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 08:42:11 -0400 (EDT) -- Kitfox-List message posted by: Gill Levesque canpilot03@yahoo.ca Hi All, I now have 68hrs. in C-IGVL ,a model 4 -1050 with 582! I love it!!!!! (Someday Iwill post pics!!!) However the cockpit noise level is so high that my intercom is on all the time(vox) and transmits engine noise into the h Don't just Search. Find! The new MSN Search: Fast. Clear. Easy. Still alive and flyin!!!! Gil --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:19:34 AM PST US From: "Rick" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: RE: VG's, flight testing - to be continued --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rick" Thanks Kurt, I think you saved us all a lot of time and money. Will file this in my VGs folder. Rick -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Fox5flyer Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: RE: VG's, flight testing - to be continued --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" Thanks for the great report Kurt. I'll wait for more input before making any decision to purchase them. Darrel > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader > > Well folks, I have completed one clean wing test and 6 > VG test flights using various quantities and positions > for them - 2 patterns as described by VG sellers and 4 > of my own design. I did approximately 50 stalls total > for data. Results: > > At 1300 lbs, my plane stalls around 46 mph IAS clean > and 41 mph IAS full flaps. That was my standard to > compare too. It tends to fall off on the left wing at > the stall. Maybe my weight on that side is enough to > cause that drop. It is an easy stall to catch and I > can stop the roll and stall before 30 degrees of roll. > From that, I hoped for somewhere between the 4 and 12 > mph reduction promised by the VG sellers and better > stall characteristics. > > Several VG patterns gave very good stall > characteristics allowing stalls that were controllable > and safe while fully stalled. They showed no tendancy > to fall off on a wing when power off stalls were > performed. Other patterns just showed less > improvement. However, I could not get a variation of > more than 2 mph + or - in the stalls from the clean > wing standard on any test. I did lose up to 5 mph off > the cruise end though. > > On all but one stall I had enough elevator to fully > stall the plane. The one exception was at a seller's > recommended pattern with full flaps, full up trim, and > CG in the middle. It just wouldn't go below about 45 > mph. > > On the last series, with a seller's recommended VG > pattern, I also did a power on full flap stall to > determine if my ASI was acting properly at low speed. > I was fully controllable to 34 mph IAS with maybe 40% > power on. At 34, the plane stalled suddenly and > rolled hard left. I repeated the test and got the > same results, but caught the stall roll sooner. I > then returned for a full stall landing. On post > flight I discovered that the left wing had shed 21 > VG's (out of 50/wing) from the inboard end. (The VG's > were just taped on and not glued on.) I think it was > the more violent departure with power on and prop > blast that tore them off. FYI, The VG's lost were all > outboard of the wing tank. There were no VG's from > the tanks inboard. I had no problem with the landing > and did not know they were gone until postflight. > > I have removed the VG's for now, but hope to continue > to look for some improvement from them later. Results > do vary with aircraft, but so far I am disappointed in > my results. > > The VG testing is in my logbook and I believe that > allows me to add them on again after I have finished > the 40 hrs testing. If anyone knows different, please > let me know. > > Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo > > > _______________________________ > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! > http://vote.yahoo.com > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:21:32 AM PST US From: "Rick" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: RE: Wing strut fairing tests --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rick" Don where are going to put the two turbos? :) -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of AlbertaIV@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: RE: Wing strut fairing tests --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com Do Not Archive << Overall, I have gained 17 mph in cruise this Summer from my radiator scoop and my wing strut fairings. A happy camper. :-) Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo >> Kurt, Excellent stats. I'm not going to quit until I get 138 Knots out of the 582. Don Smythe N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:26:46 AM PST US From: KITFOXPILOT@att.net Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Trailering --> Kitfox-List message posted by: KITFOXPILOT@att.net -------------- Original message from Lmar : -------------- > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lmar > > Is is best to trailer the airplane nose or tail first? What are the advantages? > This would be for short 5 - 10 mile distances. > > Thanks, > Larry > You want to tow the plane tail first, try to take the weight off the tail wheel, and lock it in place! I have photo's of my trailer I built if interested? Ray N2BH Model IV, 1200 912S > > --------------------------------- > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! > > > > > > -------------- Original message from Lmar : -------------- -- Kitfox-List message posted by: Lmar Is is best to trailer the airplane nose or tail first? What are the advantages? This would be for short 5 - 10 mile distances. Thanks, Larry You want to tow the plane tail first, try to take the weight off the tail wheel, and lock it in place! I have photo's of my trailer I built if interested? Ray N2BH Model IV, 1200 912S --------------------------------- vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! : http://www.matronics.com/search ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:32:07 AM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: RE: VG's, flight testing - to be continued --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Kurt, Thanks very much for the detailed report. I too have been wondering about the benefits of the vortex generators. This gives some hard info to consider. One thing I wonder about though. That is, we are all using the same wing with various maximum loadings. Your weight at test exceeds my maximum gross by 100 lbs. and your test weight would exceed my test weight by approximately 300 lbs if I were to fly solo with full fuel. Maybe the wing is approaching its maximum efficiency with the later models. I would certainly as detailed a study of the vortex generators in a Model IV to see if the benefits are really there in our wing. Maybe I'll have to take the plunge. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "kurt schrader" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: RE: VG's, flight testing - to be continued > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader > > Well folks, I have completed one clean wing test and 6 > VG test flights using various quantities and positions > for them - 2 patterns as described by VG sellers and 4 > of my own design. I did approximately 50 stalls total > for data. Results: > > At 1300 lbs, my plane stalls around 46 mph IAS clean > and 41 mph IAS full flaps. That was my standard to > compare too. It tends to fall off on the left wing at > the stall. Maybe my weight on that side is enough to > cause that drop. It is an easy stall to catch and I > can stop the roll and stall before 30 degrees of roll. > From that, I hoped for somewhere between the 4 and 12 > mph reduction promised by the VG sellers and better > stall characteristics. > > Several VG patterns gave very good stall > characteristics allowing stalls that were controllable > and safe while fully stalled. They showed no tendancy > to fall off on a wing when power off stalls were > performed. Other patterns just showed less > improvement. However, I could not get a variation of > more than 2 mph + or - in the stalls from the clean > wing standard on any test. I did lose up to 5 mph off > the cruise end though. > > On all but one stall I had enough elevator to fully > stall the plane. The one exception was at a seller's > recommended pattern with full flaps, full up trim, and > CG in the middle. It just wouldn't go below about 45 > mph. > > On the last series, with a seller's recommended VG > pattern, I also did a power on full flap stall to > determine if my ASI was acting properly at low speed. > I was fully controllable to 34 mph IAS with maybe 40% > power on. At 34, the plane stalled suddenly and > rolled hard left. I repeated the test and got the > same results, but caught the stall roll sooner. I > then returned for a full stall landing. On post > flight I discovered that the left wing had shed 21 > VG's (out of 50/wing) from the inboard end. (The VG's > were just taped on and not glued on.) I think it was > the more violent departure with power on and prop > blast that tore them off. FYI, The VG's lost were all > outboard of the wing tank. There were no VG's from > the tanks inboard. I had no problem with the landing > and did not know they were gone until postflight. > > I have removed the VG's for now, but hope to continue > to look for some improvement from them later. Results > do vary with aircraft, but so far I am disappointed in > my results. > > The VG testing is in my logbook and I believe that > allows me to add them on again after I have finished > the 40 hrs testing. If anyone knows different, please > let me know. > > Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo > > > _______________________________ > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! > http://vote.yahoo.com > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:34:17 AM PST US From: KITFOXPILOT@att.net Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Hangar door --> Kitfox-List message posted by: KITFOXPILOT@att.net -------------- Original message from "Larry Huntley" : -------------- > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Larry Huntley" > > Randy, > I built a 40' X 11' Ultimate Door 8 yrs ago and it has performed > perfectly. You can buy the plans only or the plans and metal parts prefabed. > I fabricated all my own parts. I'm cheap! I have no power,so I use a > counterweight and an old iron wheel w/ a crank handle and can lift it w/ one > hand easily. It faces East and is all translucent panels,so it doubles as a > morning heater. I looked at a lot of hangar doors,and built this one. > Larry Huntley,Kitfox > 4-1200,EA81,Dundee,NY,USA do you have the plane on the construction, I am also interested in this type of door! Ray > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" > To: > Subject: Kitfox-List: Hangar door > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" > > > > > > > Has anybody used The Ultimate Door for their hangar? It looks pretty good > > to me, but would like a reference. I think it used to be called the EAA > > door. It is a single flat door that goes up to lay across the top of the > > doorway where it is centered in and out. > > > > Randy - Fox done. Building a hangar. > > > > > > > > > > -------------- Original message from "Larry Huntley" : -------------- -- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Larry Huntley" Randy, I built a 40' X 11' Ultimate Door 8 yrs ago and it has performed perfectly. You can buy the plans only or the plans and metal parts prefabed. I fabricated all my own parts. I'm cheap! I have no power,so I use a counterweight and an old iron wheel w/ a crank handle and can lift it w/ one hand easily. It faces East and is all translucent panels,so it doubles as a morning heater. I looked at a lot of hangar doors,and built this one. Larry Huntley,Kitfox 4-1200,EA81,Dundee,NY,USA do you have the plane on the construction, I am also interested in this type of door! Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" To: Subject: Kitfox-List: Hangar door -- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Has anybody used The Ultimate Door for their hangar? It looks pretty good to me, but would like a reference. I think it used to be called the EAA door. It is a single flat door that goes up to lay across the top of the doorway where it is centered in and out. Randy - Fox done. Building a hangar. s. You'll never see banner ads or any other ecific: http://www.matronics.com/kitfox-list ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:35:53 AM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: RE: Wing strut fairing tests --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Don, How is your scoop coming? Lots of work to it.... I am still looking for 10 more knots from mine. They are getting harder to find in large bunches though. These 5+ models are just fatter and heavier than yours and will always be a little slower for the hp and fuel flow. And the benefits are not additive. I could get +10 from one fairing or +8 from another, but with them both on, I get +14 because of the drag increase with speed. But for some reason I got the same increase in speed from the fairings at my lower and higher cruise settings. Maybe just test variables. Lots of little work to go to make this plane "home" in flight. Kurt S. --- AlbertaIV@aol.com wrote: > Do Not Archive > Kurt, > Excellent stats. I'm not going to quit until I > get 138 Knots out of the 582. > Don Smythe > N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582 _______________________________ Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:32 AM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: RE: VG's, flight testing - to be continued --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Darrel, Good answer. I don't want to turn anyone off from using VG's if they actually work for them. I do like the better stalls, but they are a bit of a hassel to clean around and I lose on the top end. I'll try more patterns later to see if I can get a stall reduction without much cruise loss. That will likely be next year. Too much to do now. Guess I am trying to be nearer ultralight landing and nearer RV cruise with this plane by expanding the flight envelope, but it may not change that much. They are good planes to begin with. Kurt S. --- Fox5flyer wrote: > Thanks for the great report Kurt. I'll wait for > more input before making any decision to purchase > them. > Darrel _______________________________ Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:52:49 AM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: RE: VG's, flight testing - to be continued --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Rick, You are welcome. I don't want to turn others off from VG's, but I am disappointed with my results. Some patterns actually increased the stall speed a little and some cost 5 knots in cruise. If you have a poor stall on your plane now, these will make it much more livable, even if you do not get a speed reduction. But as is for me, they were of little advantage. I want a stall speed reduction enough to test again later though, just on the chance that such light and cheap changes will work. I tested in a small range of positions. I might expand that range later. I also have a VG folder. :-) Do not archive Kurt S. --- Rick wrote: > Thanks Kurt, I think you saved us all a lot of time > and money. Will file this in my VGs folder. > > Rick _______________________________ Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:09:38 AM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: RE: VG's, flight testing - to be continued --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader I'd say go for it Lowell. You can return them if they don't work as advertised. Right now I am keeping mine for further tests, but not mounted until then. The hard part is installing all those little things accurately, and then moving them again for more tests. My actual flight tests were only 30-40 minutes each for 2 cruise settings with stabilized data, then 2 stalls each for 5 flap settings. That was not so hard. But marking and moving them could take all day. If you have the infinately adjustable flaps, you have a harder time getting exact positions, but maybe you only need to test for up and down. The pre-5 models have different wings enough that you might get better results from that too. I think the leading edge treatment has a lot to do with it. I wish I had installed the metal upper leading edge I considered. I left it off for the "look". Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo --- Lowell Fitt wrote: > Kurt, Thanks very much for the detailed report. I > too have been wondering about the benefits of the > vortex generators. This gives some hard info to > consider. > > One thing I wonder about though. That is, we are > all using the same wing > with various maximum loadings. Your weight at test > exceeds my maximum gross > by 100 lbs. and your test weight would exceed my > test weight by > approximately 300 lbs if I were to fly solo with > full fuel. Maybe the wing > is approaching its maximum efficiency with the later > models. > > I would certainly as detailed a study of the vortex > generators in a Model IV > to see if the benefits are really there in our wing. > > Maybe I'll have to take the plunge. > > Lowell __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:04:58 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: RE: VG's, flight testing - to be continued --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Has anyone tried any flow fences? Should be relatively simple to make, and just might reduce stall speeds? Sometimes it might not make sense, but it just might work. (Remember the Avid guy that put the vg's on the bottom of his wing per Mr. Ribletts advice?) Just trying to think out of the box... Paul Seehafer Wisconsin ----- Original Message ----- From: "kurt schrader" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: RE: VG's, flight testing - to be continued > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader > > > I'd say go for it Lowell. You can return them if they > don't work as advertised. Right now I am keeping mine > for further tests, but not mounted until then. > > The hard part is installing all those little things > accurately, and then moving them again for more tests. > My actual flight tests were only 30-40 minutes each > for 2 cruise settings with stabilized data, then 2 > stalls each for 5 flap settings. That was not so > hard. But marking and moving them could take all day. > > If you have the infinately adjustable flaps, you have > a harder time getting exact positions, but maybe you > only need to test for up and down. > > The pre-5 models have different wings enough that you > might get better results from that too. > > I think the leading edge treatment has a lot to do > with it. I wish I had installed the metal upper > leading edge I considered. I left it off for the > "look". > > Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo > > --- Lowell Fitt wrote: > >> Kurt, Thanks very much for the detailed report. I >> too have been wondering about the benefits of the >> vortex generators. This gives some hard info to >> consider. >> >> One thing I wonder about though. That is, we are >> all using the same wing >> with various maximum loadings. Your weight at test >> exceeds my maximum gross >> by 100 lbs. and your test weight would exceed my >> test weight by >> approximately 300 lbs if I were to fly solo with >> full fuel. Maybe the wing >> is approaching its maximum efficiency with the later >> models. >> >> I would certainly as detailed a study of the vortex >> generators in a Model IV >> to see if the benefits are really there in our wing. >> >> Maybe I'll have to take the plunge. >> >> Lowell > > > __________________________________ > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:35:02 AM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: RE: VG's, flight testing - to be continued --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Hi Paul, I thought of flow fences, but haven't tried them. Also thought of drooping the plastic nose of the wing at installation, but didn't. It could be at factory position at the root, but turned down a little going out to the tip. That would replace some of the wing twist and give a good stall without the loss in lift from twisting, theoritically. And then there are those funny VG's used on the GlassStar... There is room here for anyone else who wants to test "improvements". Lots of possibilities. "Results may vary." Kurt S. --- av8rps@tznet.com wrote: > Has anyone tried any flow fences? > > Should be relatively simple to make, and just might > reduce stall speeds? > Sometimes it might not make sense, but it just might > work. (Remember the Avid guy that put the vg's on > the bottom of his wing per Mr. Ribletts advice?) > > Just trying to think out of the box... > > Paul Seehafer > Wisconsin _______________________________ Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:30 AM PST US From: kerrjohna@comcast.net Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: RE: VG's, flight testing - to be continued --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kerrjohna@comcast.net Kurt, as long as we are theorizing, lowering the leading edge molding at the tip would, I believe, increase the effect of the twist(washout). Said differently if the molding were attached at the factory position full span but with increased washout the molding would effectively be lowered. Washout is generally considered to be an aid to softer stalls. -------------- Original message -------------- > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader > > Hi Paul, > > I thought of flow fences, but haven't tried them. > Also thought of drooping the plastic nose of the wing > at installation, but didn't. It could be at factory > position at the root, but turned down a little going > out to the tip. That would replace some of the wing > twist and give a good stall without the loss in lift > from twisting, theoritically. > > And then there are those funny VG's used on the > GlassStar... > > There is room here for anyone else who wants to test > "improvements". Lots of possibilities. "Results may > vary." > > Kurt S. > > --- av8rps@tznet.com wrote: > > > Has anyone tried any flow fences? > > > > Should be relatively simple to make, and just might > > reduce stall speeds? > > Sometimes it might not make sense, but it just might > > work. (Remember the Avid guy that put the vg's on > > the bottom of his wing per Mr. Ribletts advice?) > > > > Just trying to think out of the box... > > > > Paul Seehafer > > Wisconsin > > > > _______________________________ > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! > http://vote.yahoo.com > > > > > > Kurt, as long as we are theorizing, lowering the leading edge molding at the tip would, I believe, increase the effect of the twist(washout). Said differently if the molding were attached at the factory position full span but with increased washout the molding would effectively be lowered. Washout is generally considered to be an aid to softer stalls. -------------- Original message -------------- -- Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Hi Paul, I thought of flow fences, but haven't tried them. Also thought of drooping the plastic nose of the wing at installation, but didn't. It could be at factory position at the root, but turned down a little going out to the tip. That would replace some of the wing twist and give a good stall without the loss in lift from twisting, theoritically. And then there are those funny VG's used on the GlassStar... There is room here for anyone else who wants to test "improvements". Lots of possibilities. "Results may vary." Kurt S. --- av8rps@tznet.com wrote: < BR> Has anyone tried any flow fences? Should be relatively simple to make, and just might reduce stall speeds? Sometimes it might not make sense, but it just might work. (Remember the Avid guy that put the vg's on the bottom of his wing per Mr. Ribletts advice?) Just trying to think out of the box... Paul Seehafer Wisconsin _______________________________ Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com nics Forums. emaillists ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:13:08 PM PST US From: kitfoxjunky Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Trailering 03:12:39 PM, Serialize complete at 10/07/2004 03:12:39 PM --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kitfoxjunky I have a small utility trailer that worked quite well for trailering. It is very small, not even as wide as the landing gear wheelbase. I took a 1" square channel I had kicking around, drilled a hole thru it, then mounted it to the bed of the utility trailer. I removed the tailwheel, put the axle thru the hole in the channel, tightened up the bolt and was ready to trailer. The plane sits on its mains, and the tailwheel assembly rides on the utility trailer and can swivel going around corners. I was able to average about 45 miles per hour with no problems. If I go long distances, I have a heavier trailer that I modified, but it usually has a boat on it. Gary Walsh C-GOOT www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox KITFOXPILOT@att.net Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com 10/07/2004 10:26 AM Please respond to kitfox-list To: kitfox-list@matronics.com cc: Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Trailering --> Kitfox-List message posted by: KITFOXPILOT@att.net -------------- Original message from Lmar : -------------- > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lmar > > Is is best to trailer the airplane nose or tail first? What are the advantages? > This would be for short 5 - 10 mile distances. > > Thanks, > Larry > You want to tow the plane tail first, try to take the weight off the tail wheel, and lock it in place! I have photo's of my trailer I built if interested? Ray N2BH Model IV, 1200 912S > > --------------------------------- > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! > > > > > > -------------- Original message from Lmar : -------------- -- Kitfox-List message posted by: Lmar Is is best to trailer the airplane nose or tail first? What are the advantages? This would be for short 5 - 10 mile distances. Thanks, Larry You want to tow the plane tail first, try to take the weight off the tail wheel, and lock it in place! I have photo's of my trailer I built if interested? Ray N2BH Model IV, 1200 912S --------------------------------- vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! : http://www.matronics.com/search ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:33:32 PM PST US From: "Larry Huntley" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Hangar door --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Larry Huntley" I no longer have the plans ,but they are not very expensive. You can call them at: 414-438-0747. Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Hangar door > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: KITFOXPILOT@att.net > > > -------------- Original message from "Larry Huntley" : -------------- > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Larry Huntley" > > > > Randy, > > I built a 40' X 11' Ultimate Door 8 yrs ago and it has performed > > perfectly. You can buy the plans only or the plans and metal parts prefabed. > > I fabricated all my own parts. I'm cheap! I have no power,so I use a > > counterweight and an old iron wheel w/ a crank handle and can lift it w/ one > > hand easily. It faces East and is all translucent panels,so it doubles as a > > morning heater. I looked at a lot of hangar doors,and built this one. > > Larry Huntley,Kitfox > > 4-1200,EA81,Dundee,NY,USA > > do you have the plane on the construction, I am also interested in this type of door! > > Ray > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" > > To: > > Subject: Kitfox-List: Hangar door > > > > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" > > > > > > > > > > > Has anybody used The Ultimate Door for their hangar? It looks pretty good > > > to me, but would like a reference. I think it used to be called the EAA > > > door. It is a single flat door that goes up to lay across the top of the > > > doorway where it is centered in and out. > > > > > > Randy - Fox done. Building a hangar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------- Original message from "Larry Huntley" : -------------- > > -- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Larry Huntley" > > Randy, > I built a 40' X 11' Ultimate Door 8 yrs ago and it has performed > perfectly. You can buy the plans only or the plans and metal parts prefabed. > I fabricated all my own parts. I'm cheap! I have no power,so I use a > counterweight and an old iron wheel w/ a crank handle and can lift it w/ one > hand easily. It faces East and is all translucent panels,so it doubles as a > morning heater. I looked at a lot of hangar doors,and built this one. > Larry Huntley,Kitfox > 4-1200,EA81,Dundee,NY,USA > > > do you have the plane on the construction, I am also interested in this type of door! > > > Ray > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" > To: > Subject: Kitfox-List: Hangar door > > > -- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" > > > > Has anybody used The Ultimate Door for their hangar? It looks pretty good > to me, but would like a reference. I think it used to be called the EAA > door. It is a single flat door that goes up to lay across the top of the > doorway where it is centered in and out. > > Randy - Fox done. Building a hangar. > > > s. You'll never see banner ads or any other > ecific: http://www.matronics.com/kitfox-list > > > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:01:14 PM PST US From: "flier" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Trailering --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "flier" I'd recommend watching that tailspring really close. Personally, I use gas struts to take the weight off the tailspring as well as securing the tail via the towbar crosstube independent of the tailspring. It would really suck to have the tail come loose while towing -- nearly as much as to have a wing come loose. --- Original Message --- From: kitfoxjunky Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Trailering >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kitfoxjunky > >I have a small utility trailer that worked quite well for trailering. It >is very small, not even as wide as the landing gear wheelbase. I took a >1" square channel I had kicking around, drilled a hole thru it, then >mounted it to the bed of the utility trailer. I removed the tailwheel, >put the axle thru the hole in the channel, tightened up the bolt and was >ready to trailer. The plane sits on its mains, and the tailwheel assembly >rides on the utility trailer and can swivel going around corners. I was >able to average about 45 miles per hour with no problems. If I go long >distances, I have a heavier trailer that I modified, but it usually has a >boat on it. > > >Gary Walsh >C-GOOT >www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox > > >KITFOXPILOT@att.net >Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com >10/07/2004 10:26 AM >Please respond to kitfox-list > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > cc: > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Trailering > > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: KITFOXPILOT@att.net > > >-------------- Original message from Lmar : --------- ----- > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lmar >> >> Is is best to trailer the airplane nose or tail first? What are the >advantages? >> This would be for short 5 - 10 mile distances. >> >> Thanks, >> Larry >> You want to tow the plane tail first, try to take the weight off the >tail wheel, and lock it in place! I have photo's of my trailer I built if >interested? > >Ray >N2BH >Model IV, 1200 912S >> >> --------------------------------- >> vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > >-------------- Original message from Lmar : >-------------- > > -- Kitfox-List message posted by: Lmar > > Is is best to trailer the airplane nose or tail first? What are the >advantages? > This would be for short 5 - 10 mile distances. > > Thanks, > Larry > You want to tow the plane tail first, try to take the weight off the tail >wheel, and lock it in place! I have photo's of my trailer I built if >interested? > > >Ray > > >N2BH > > >Model IV, 1200 912S > > --------------------------------- > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! > > > : http://www.matronics.com/search > > > > > >_- ====================================================== ================== Contributions any other Forums. >_- ====================================================== ================== >_- ====================================================== ================== http://www.matronics.com/subscription http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list http://www.matronics.com/archives http://www.matronics.com/photoshare list http://www.matronics.com/emaillists http://www.matronics.com/contribution >_- ====================================================== ================== > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 04:04:36 PM PST US From: AlbertaIV@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: RE: Wing strut fairing tests --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com Do Not Archive << Don, How is your scoop coming? Lots of work to it.... >> Kurt, Doing well and yes, lots of work. I have everything laid out and in place. Just need to firm and strengthen things a bit and be ready for a test flight. Will paint and pretty after the test. Don Smythe N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:25:51 PM PST US From: They Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Do you know anyone in the military there? They --> Kitfox-List message posted by: They My understanding of the primary advantaqe of silicone brake fluid is the higher boiling point, important in racing applications where brakes can get super hot. The problem with the non hygroscopic nature of silicone is that if moisture does enter the brake system it could pool in some location promoting corrosion more so than if suspended in hygroscopic type fluid. Can anybody else confirm this? I suspect you have to replace any brake fluid at regular maintenance intervals regardless of the type for the above reason. Rex Colorado, USA On Wed, 06 Oct 2004 19:31:43 -0500 Jerry Liles wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jerry Liles > > > The alternative is to purge the brakes of the original >brake fluid and > replace it with a silicone based automotive brake fluid. > The buna > rubber seals are compatible with silicone but not with >standard > automotive brake fluid. The advantages of the silicone >fluid is it is > not hygroscopic and will never need replacing. I'm a >bit dubious of > using transmission fluid, but it might work just fine. > > Jerry Liles > > Rex & Jan Shaw wrote: ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 06:29:34 PM PST US From: "Marc Arseneault" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Cockpit Noise Reduction --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Marc Arseneault" Gil, Check and see how much of a gap you have between the firewall and the cowling. You might have a big gap there even with the firewall blanket and by sealing this, you will eliminate alot of the cabin noise. A SPO-22N isthe part # of aSigtronics portable intercom that is highly recommended for ultralights that have alot ofcabin noise. I had the Avcomm and the standard Sigtronics intercoms and had the same problems that you describe. Problem was solvedonce I installed thehigh noise Sitronics. I am using a Icom-A5 handheld radio. Best Regards, Marc Arseneault Ontario Canada From: Gill Levesque canpilot03@yahoo.ca Reply-To: kitfox-list@matronics.com To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Cockpit Noise Reduction Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 09:01:23 -0400 (EDT) -- Kitfox-List message posted by: Gill Levesque canpilot03@yahoo.ca Marc, I have the stock , firewall cover! fibre glass insulation covered in plastic(?) What is a n SP-22N?? What radio are you using? I have a panel mounted(ex-handheld) Delcom 960!! Gil Levesque C-IGVL David Savener david_savener@msn.com wrote: -- Kitfox-List message posted by: "David Savener" I've never heard of "bulb seal around the firewall". Could you explain what it is? I am uncomfortable with my airplane's seal(almost nonexistent) that should slow an engine fire's invasion of the cabin!! Dave Savener ----- Original Message ----- From: Marc Arseneault To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Cockpit Noise Reduction -- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Marc Arseneault" Hi Gil, I had the same problem and purchased a Sigtronics High noise P/N SP-22N and it solved my problems. It would also help to have the intercom connected direct instead of running on the batteries. Have you got a bulb seal around the firewall? Besides this, that is about all you can do unless you install a firewall blanket but make sure it is fire resistant. Best Regards, Marc Arseneault Ontario Canada From: Gill Levesque canpilot03@yahoo.ca Reply-To: kitfox-list@matronics.com To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: Kitfox-List: Cockpit Noise Reduction Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 08:42:11 -0400 (EDT) -- Kitfox-List message posted by: Gill Levesque canpilot03@yahoo.ca Hi All, I now have 68hrs. in C-IGVL ,a model 4 -1050 with 582! I love it!!!!! (Someday Iwill post pics!!!) However the cockpit noise level is so high that my intercom is on all the time(vox) and transmits e Powerful parental controls improve your peace of mind with MSN Premium: Join now and get the first two months FREE* ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 06:34:30 PM PST US From: icaza francisco Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Castrol TTS for two strock engines --> Kitfox-List message posted by: icaza francisco Thanks a lot to Rex and Roger for your posts about TTS Syntetic oil. Sincerely, Francisco Icaza Classic IV --- r.thomas@za.pwc.com escribi: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: > r.thomas@za.pwc.com > > Hi Francisco > > I find oil choice is very much a personal decision > (wars have been started > over a topic like this ;-)). Some will try to > convince you to use their > choice of oil. My personal feeling is since I live > on the East Coast of > South Africa, where humidity is often a problem I > prefer to use a good > mineral oil with the least ash content. Yes, the > downside is that you do > have more carbon build up and probably require more > decokes. > > The bad side of the synthetic oils are that many of > them are hygroscopic > (able to retain moisture) and as such would > certainly promote corrosion > whilst not in use - especially at the coast. This > can end up with bearings > etc getting chewed up - maybe something like this > happened to your friend? > > The previous owner of the my Kitfox ran on > synthetic, but he was on our > highveld which is a lot dryer than the coast. As > soon as I am finished > with my current supply of synthetic, I will be > changing over to a mineral > based oil which is not hygroscopic. > > An easy home test (borrowed from one of my fellow SA > pilots) to test oil > for hygroscopic properties is to take a tablespoon > of the oil and heat it > up in a frying pan (use an old one or mommy may get > upset with you). Once > heated, add a small drop of water. Then allow to > cool. If the oil and > water separate then the oil is not hygroscopic. As > with many synthetics, > on cooling, you will not find that drop of water - > it has 'dissolved' into > the oil. (Obviously do not boil the oil water > mixture, as the water may > just evaporate and your experiment may not show the > correct result.) > > Hope this helps > Regards > Roger > > > icaza francisco > Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > 06/10/2004 01:53 AM > > Please respond to > kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > To > kitfox-list@matronics.com > cc > > Subject > Kitfox-List: Castrol TTS for two strock engines > > > Size: 5 Kb > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: icaza francisco > > > A friend of mine had an engine feliure in his Quick > Silver GT500 two weeks ago. He uses Castrol TTS > (full > syntetic) mixed 50:1. His engine is completely > destroyed inside. > I use it also in a Rotax 582 in a Drifter I have. It > worked great for five years, engine and plugs were > always "clean". Eric Tucker at SkyStar told me it > was > a good choice. Well, Castrol people told him they > changed the formula a lot, (besides that now the oil > is red instead amber and it feels lighter). > > Does anybody of you use Castrol TTS oil? Have you > seen > some changes? > > Any way, be careful. > > > Francisco Icaza > Classic IV > > > La mejor conexin a internet y 25MB extra a tu correo > por $100 al mes. > http://net.yahoo.com.mx > > > The information transmitted is intended only for the > person or entity to > which it is addressed and may contain confidential > and/or privileged > material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination > or other use of, or > taking of any action in reliance upon, this > information by persons or > entities other than the intended recipient is > prohibited. If you > received this in error, please contact the sender > and delete the material > from any computer. > > > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > http://www.matronics.com/chat > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > > La mejor conexin a internet y 25MB extra a tu correo por $100 al mes. http://net.yahoo.com.mx ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 07:51:17 PM PST US From: "Stu Bryant" Subject: Kitfox-List: RE: VG flight testing --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Stu Bryant" Kurt, Did you happen to use a GPS to verify indicated airspeed while you were at those higher angles of attack during the stall testing? I'm curious about AI error- could you have been getting more benefit than was indicated? (Granted winds must be accurately known) Stu Bryant ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 08:30:00 PM PST US From: Land Shorter Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: RE: VG flight testing --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Land Shorter Stu Bryant wrote:--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Stu Bryant" Kurt, Did you happen to use a GPS to verify indicated airspeed while you were at those higher angles of attack during the stall testing? I'm curious about AI error- could you have been getting more benefit than was indicated? (Granted winds must be accurately known) Stu Bryant --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 08:45:45 PM PST US From: Ceashman@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Trailering --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Ceashman@aol.com In a message dated 10/7/2004 8:00:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, my93avid@yahoo.com writes: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lmar Is is best to trailer the airplane nose or tail first? What are the advantages? This would be for short 5 - 10 mile distances. Thanks, Larry Hi Larry. So you have a trailer that is attached to the car, or whatever you pull the trailer with. How do you get the Kitfox onto the trailer? Could you push the aircraft nose first onto the trailer or do you winch the aircraft onto the trailer by the tail end. This is the problem, which end onto the trailer first! The Kitfox, I'm sure would enjoy the ride looking into the wind. As is during flight, but consider the task of getting it there on the trailer!! I have modified a tandem wheel trailer (lowered the back end for the mains) and the tail wheel travels in a channel It is "tail first." for the purpose of commuting to the airport. My maximum speed is 60 mph, and it takes about 45 minutes to get there. With no one looking (wanting to chat) I can get it ready to fly in about 30 minutes. The big question is, how to get the airplane, nose first onto the trailer? If you can figure this out then you have the answer to your question! Greetings. Eric. Classic IV, Atlanta ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:03 PM PST US From: Land Shorter Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: RE: VG flight testing --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Land Shorter This is a very good point. Without using a gimbal mounted pitot it is extremely difficult to get accurate measurements. It is also extremely difficult to tell where the "stall" occurs if you are only getting a "mush". Kurt's last test showed a true stall and also a very low stall speed (34 mph instead of the non-vg stall with flaps of 41mph). To me this sounds like a really good result. Furthermore without knowing if that particular stall was caused by the loss of the many VGs and since no further testing was apparently done after the VGs came off it would be difficult to know what the new pattern truly did to his stall. Also, the fact that one wing was dropping also makes it very difficult to see a true stall speed. In my opinion, and this is irrelevant to whether or not VGs are on or not, that would be the first thing that I would address. Having a properly trimmed aircraft makes all the difference. A good friend of mine has a Kitfox 7 and was having trim problems and when the trim was carefully adjusted using a very accurate laser level he had a huge improvement in his performance. It really does make a difference. With Kurt's great improvements with drag reduction (super job and thanks for keeping us all motivated to get "free speed" out of our ships Kurt) this would be a natural. If Kurt decides to do further testing I would be happy to work with him further to refine his results. I also think that by placing VGs on the underside of his horizontal so that he has the tail authority to fully stall the aircraft he will see very positive results. It should be noted that the pattern that Kurt was seeing the lowest stall was one that I recommended to him. Even though Kurt didn't purchase my VGs, I really wanted to see him succeed since I have had so many other very satisfied customers and since I don't sell VGs for the money (I have a day job as an engineer with Quest Aircraft) but more for the fun of it and the chance to meet people that have the same love for aviation and STOL aircraft that I do. It was unfortunate though that my competitor didn't give Kurt the customer support (or the complete instructions) that I offer. Speaking of Quest if you haven't heard about us go to www.questaircraft.com and check out the Kodiak. Now that our web page is up I can finally mention our company :) We're busting serious tail to get her in the air and she's going to be one *sweet* flying STOL work horse. So in a nutshell the neat thing about VGs is what they do for YOU. It's all about whether YOU like them. That's the big reason I offer a 100% money back guarantee :) Keep em flying! Joa www.landshorter.com Stu Bryant wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Stu Bryant" Kurt, Did you happen to use a GPS to verify indicated airspeed while you were at those higher angles of attack during the stall testing? I'm curious about AI error- could you have been getting more benefit than was indicated? (Granted winds must be accurately known) Stu Bryant --------------------------------- vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 11:42:58 PM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: RE: Wing strut fairing tests --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Don, My scoop is still in the "it works but isn't pretty yet" stage too. I need to install a variable outlet, then spruce it up a bunch. Kurt S. --- AlbertaIV@aol.com wrote: > Kurt, > Doing well and yes, lots of work. I have > everything laid out and in place. Just need to firm > and strengthen things a bit and be ready for a test > flight. Will paint and pretty after the test. > > Don Smythe > N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582 __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 11:44:49 PM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: RE: VG's, flight testing - to be continued --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader That was the theory John. To let the leading edge do what the twist does so you can take some twist out and save the drag. aka Cessna's LE cuff. Kurt S. --- kerrjohna@comcast.net wrote: > Kurt, as long as we are theorizing, lowering the > leading edge molding at the tip would, I believe, > increase the effect of the twist(washout). Said > differently if the molding were attached at the > factory position full span but with increased > washout the molding would effectively be lowered. > Washout is generally considered to be an aid to > softer stalls. __________________________________